Is Christianity Paul's Master-scam

[burning 4 revenge]

Paul's letters are the earliest Christian writings pre-dating the gospels by at least thirty years. His followers could have written the gospels.

 

He's always asking for money. Always. Read the ends of the letters

[westernxer]

The New Testament owes a lot to St. Paul.

 

That much is true.

[ThumbingMyWay]

Paul's letters are the earliest Christian writings pre-dating the gospels by at least thirty years. His followers could have written the gospels.

 

He's always asking for money. Always. Read the ends of the letters

 

personally I could care less if he asks for money. I give to my chruch what I can. I use lots of there children ministry functions, so it only proper that I pay my share to the church. I have no problem with that.

 

I do have a problem with greed in general though. IS the christian chruch greedy?...I spose it depends on the context and the specific chruch.

 

also would like to say that Pauls letters in the NT are probable the most influencial to me. Romans, and Corinthians are my fav in the NT.

[amerikajin]

The only chosen people are shwallanese people. They are the chosen ones. Nobody else.

[blind_otter]

Jesus was literate, if he was learned in the herbrew scriptures. I wonder why he didn't write any of his teachings down.

[Becoming]

Actually, Paul is always asking for $$ for other destitute churches. If you read II Corinthians, he is adamant about not asking the Corinthians for $$. He continued to work as a tentmaker while he was with them, not asking for one denarii from them.

 

Read the thing closely first before jumping to conclusions.

[amerikajin]

Christians, Jews and Muslims...they are not the chosen ones. They will not enter the paradise.

[burning 4 revenge]

tell me more of this shwallana so that i too may enter paradise (it isn't some crude metaphor for gay sex is it?)

[flavius]

Read N.T. Wright's "The Challenge of Jesus" and wash it down with "What the Apostle Paul Really Said". That should lay your concerns about the apostle Paul to rest. But you will also be shocked by the extent to which Christendom has strayed from its Jewish-Jesus roots in its preference for Greco-Abstractionist-Paul, the herald of Christ's Kingdom. Modern evangelicals are followers of Paul (against Paul's own warning) and refer to Jesus only to reinforce their Pauline biases.

 

Paul expounds no free-standing, timeless system of salvation except the kingship of Jesus--all of Paul's teachings are interstitial and must be construed as auxiliary to the "Gospel for which he [was] in chains."

 

And that Gospel was not some method of "how to Get Saved."

 

The Gospel is the Proclamation that the Kingdom of God is come in Jesus the Messiah of God, the king of Earth and Heaven, and the Lord of Caesar and Satan and Stalin and Schwartzenaegger and Ideology and Idolatry. The Kingdom has been inexorably advancing through the hearts of men and women who swim against the tides of the State, of the State-Churches, and the Status-Quo, and The System. The Kingdom is not words, bu is Peace, Power, and Love through the Spirit of Christ. Two millennia have seen the advance of the rule of conscience, the erosion of the rule of force, the near-end of slavery, a rise of reason, the dawning of equality for minorities & women, and the era of armed-capitalist-hegemony on the brink of oblivion.

 

In a bizarre twist, Christians do not see the Kingdom of God coming; they do not see Jesus the Christ on his throne while God "makes his enemies a footstool for his feet." And why not? Because they think the Kingdom can only come thru their own forms and traditions and interpretations and heirarchies and preconceptions. So, how exactly do we differ from the Pharisees Jesus condemned?

 

And yes, for the record, I am an "evangelical" of sorts. I'm the guy on the barstool next to yours telling you to "think again -- the Kingdom of God is here. Babylon is going down. Now is the time. Follow Jesus."

[burning 4 revenge]

so you don't think it is possible that paul hijacked a small jerusalem-based apocalyptic cult to strike it rich in the greco-roman world

 

i'm just saying, because he is always asking for donations for "the poor"

[Guest]

Not many conmen are willing to die for "the cause". Paul would have been spared if he renounced Jesus. The Christian followers can't exactly go to Nero and ask for Paul to be punished.

 

I can easily call Muhammad a conman because he gained wealth and power after his conversion.

[flavius]

How do you figure that a man of privilege and position would imagine that his great opportunity would be to become an apostate from his own people AND a rebel against Rome at the same time? The only way you could imagine this is to know how history has turned out. And of course, Paul did not. In fact, "history" did not turn out well in Paul's lifetime, did it? Hmmmmm?

 

You are absurdly overblowing Paul's appeals for money. What the hell are you even talking about? That's just plain goofy.

 

Just because an argument can be concocted does not mean that it has any merit.

[johan]

I need clarification: are we discussing Paul the apostle or the Paul LS founder? When I first saw this thread (soon after it was started) I thought it was a highly smart-assical jab at management. I was going to throw in a remark about Tony just to stoke the flames. Now I think I'm glad I didn't.

[burning 4 revenge]

How do you figure that a man of privilege and position would imagine that his great opportunity would be to become an apostate from his own people AND a rebel against Rome at the same time? The only way you could imagine this is to know how history has turned out. And of course, Paul did not. In fact, "history" did not turn out well in Paul's lifetime, did it? Hmmmmm?

 

You are absurdly overblowing Paul's appeals for money. What the hell are you even talking about? That's just plain goofy.

 

Just because an argument can be concocted does not mean that it has any merit.

 

well it was just a theory. i'm not going to go write a book, or anything. at least not that one

 

anyway, about paul's coming from priveledge- we only have his word for that, nothing else. that was the story he was telling people in corinth, galatia, ephesus etc. do we really know the truth? of course not

[burning 4 revenge]

and i do hate it when internet moderators create major world religions for their own personal gain, but in this case it was the apostle paul

[flavius]

Paul is also written of in Luke and Peter, documents which came out of the Jewish/Jerusalem church establishment, not out of Asia Minor. Both documents affirm Paul's role in the spreading of the faith.

 

So I guess that just like when you posted a sexually explicit post on an Islamic forum, the intent of this thread is merely to annoy somebody.

 

Besides, since the Christian faith was primarily a matter of oral tradition and personal interaction for almost 200 years, there is very little written secondary corroboration of ANYTHING, even that the church itself existed in the first century AD. And yet it obviously did, or else one must assume that the whole thing spontaneously generated just so Nero could persecute it (and record it.)

 

Again you mistake "provocative" for "thoughtful." I could just as intelligently assert that Nicodemus was actually the author of the Gospel of John, and likewise there is no evidence to refute it. But that does nothing to give validity to my idea. The idea is therefore what we in academia call "DUMB."

[burning 4 revenge]

Paul is also written of in Luke and Peter, documents which came out of the Jewish/Jerusalem church establishment, not out of Asia Minor. Both documents affirm Paul's role in the spreading of the faith.

 

So I guess that just like when you posted a sexually explicit post on an Islamic forum, the intent of this thread is merely to annoy somebody.

 

Besides, since the Christian faith was primarily a matter of oral tradition and personal interaction for almost 200 years, there is very little written secondary corroboration of ANYTHING, even that the church itself existed in the first century AD. And yet it obviously did, or else one must assume that the whole thing spontaneously generated just so Nero could persecute it (and record it.)

 

Again you mistake "provocative" for "thoughtful." I could just as intelligently assert that Nicodemus was actually the author of the Gospel of John, and likewise there is no evidence to refute it. But that does nothing to give validity to my idea. The idea is therefore what we in academia call "DUMB."

 

It isn't that dumb. Look at the ends of Paul's letters. Is he, or is he not making collection?

 

And how do you know that Peter and Luke came from the Jerusalem community? It's the first I've heard of that. I've read several times that the best theory is that Luke was written in Antioch, though no-one knows for sure. And Peter and Luke are doubtless from the second century

[Nicholas]

If your defense is that he asks for money, you have not done enough to sway me.

[burning 4 revenge]

sometimes i wonder if jesus survived the crucifixtion, and then james, paul, and peter conspired with him to make him out to be some sort of demigod, and jesus hid and quietly counted the money

[Nicholas]

At what point would he renounce his views on wealth and suddenly start counting the money?

[johan]

This kind of analysis breaks down your faith. Faith means believing in the unbelievable for it's own sake. If you believe in God, then it isn't essential to know whether Jesus actually died or faked it or whatever. Just believe. Convince your heart that it's the right thing to believe in what God is telling you, even though it's coming through the flawed messenger of man. It won't hurt you. Not like having faith in, say, George Bush might hurt you.

 

The fact is you'll never know, one way or the other, and theorizing or speculating on it won't get you onto a better path.

[burning 4 revenge]

At what point would he renounce his views on wealth and suddenly start counting the money?

 

when he had it

 

remember he wanted the rich man to sell all his possessions and give the proceeds to "the poor"

 

which poor do you think he was talking about?

 

Paul also refered to the Jerusalem community as "the poor"

[Yamaha]

He's always asking for money.

 

Is or has he asked any money from you?

[Nicholas]

remember he wanted the rich man to sell all his possessions and give the proceeds to "the poor"

/QUOTE]

 

[Chris777]

This whole thread just seems to be about wild gossipy fantasy.

 

when given a responce, it is either ignored, or discounted into the speculation/gossip.

 

unless of course this is a flame post, or an attempt at being a troll.

 

as for scripture, if you would read more than "sound bites"

 

you might garner more information, than what you hear others gossiping about.

 

take this verse

 

Philippians 3:

[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

 

does this sound like the televangelist you are attempting to cast Paul as?

 

Jesus said that their would be many who claimed they were from him, but they did not know him.

 

and that we would know them by their fruit.

 

so therefore if you see someone or a group alledging they are Christians, and they don't have the right fruit, then what does that make them?