is it possible....

[burning 4 revenge]

jesus never died on the cross?

[Pyro]

Well, since not a single one of us was alive at the time when it supposedly happened, no one knows the exact truth, but I have a strong faith in what I believe in and I believe that he did die on the cross.

[burning 4 revenge]

i think he got bored and fell asleep and they took him down and when he woke up everbody thought he was god

[burning 4 revenge]

bettedavis.com

[bluetuesday]

is it possible.... jesus never died on the cross?

 

anything's possible. but is it probable he didn't die on the cross? no.

 

the authorities who called for his death would have made pretty sure he was dead. the last thing they needed was a 'jesus has come alive again' scenario.

 

it was common practice to break the legs of those who had been crucified after they had been nailed up for a while, to ensure they couldn't support themselves on the cross and would get on with the business of dying. the weight of gravity on their unsupported bodies would place an intolerable strain on their lungs you see, due to the elevation of their arms, which led to rapid asphyxiation.

 

we are told that the reason the leg-breaking didn't happen in jesus' case was that when the roman soldiers came to do it, he was already dead. so their stuck a spear in him instead to be extra sure.

 

so as far as it is possible to know, he was definitely, actually dead.

 

it wasn't like the life of brian. they didn't nail you up there for a few hours and then let you down again. crucification was a form of execution and the reason it was used was that it was painful, humiliating and effective.

[burning 4 revenge]

Though I was being a bit of a smartass because I had had about 7 Coronas when I wrote the original post, I honestly believe it is possible that he wasn't dead.

 

If you look at 1 Corinthians and Galatians, it looks like the original Christians actually believed that Jesus had risen bodily, and that many of them saw Jesus. It's a hard one to explain, and more than anything else it is the cornerstone of Christian faith.

 

Paul never mentions virgin birth, or most of Jesus' miracles (remember that his letters predate the gospels by more than three decades), but he goes on and on about the ressurection. He even says that if you do not believe in the bodily ressurection then one might as well be an Epicurean.

 

So how does one explain this? Something happened and Jesus not having died on the cross is the most rational explanation. It isn't like he was beheaded.

[Nicholas]

Historically, he died.

 

the authorities who called for his death would have made pretty sure he was dead. the last thing they needed was a 'jesus has come alive again' scenario.

 

Right. The cause of death is supposed to be the wounds inflicted on him by the soldiers, not the actual crucifixion. Though most crucifixions lasted for several torturous days, Jesus was convicted and killed on the same day. His body would have had to be taken down by soldiers before the Sabbath, because you can't have somebody hanging up there on the holy day.

 

Religiously, he "died" and rose again. Death, as a religious concept, is slightly different than the biological definition. Though his mortal body died on the Cross, Jesus actually ascended into Heaven right away, and thus escaped "death."

[burning 4 revenge]

well, iv'e read paul's letters numerous times and it seems to me the jerusalem community actually saw him physically after the crucifixtion.

 

he even says that jesus was seen by more than 500, some now asleep, but many still here, kind of like he is telling the corinthians he is writing to, you can check my stroy out if you don't believe me.

 

i just don't see any other explanation than he never died

[bluetuesday]

well, iv'e read paul's letters numerous times and it seems to me the jerusalem community actually saw him physically after the crucifixtion.

 

he even says that jesus was seen by more than 500, some now asleep, but many still here, kind of like he is telling the corinthians he is writing to, you can check my stroy out if you don't believe me.

 

i just don't see any other explanation than he never died

 

the explanation is that after death and burial in a tomb, god brought jesus back to life bodily to show the people that with god, nothing is impossible and that jesus christ was indeed the way, the truth and the life and if you follow him, you too can overcome death. spiritual death, that is.

 

the resurrection of jesus is the whole reason christianity began. without it, he was just a nice dude with some pretty stories.

[Guest]

the explanation is that after death and burial in a tomb, god brought jesus back to life bodily to show the people that with god, nothing is impossible and that jesus christ was indeed the way, the truth and the life and if you follow him, you too can overcome death. spiritual death, that is.

 

Okay, if that's the case, wouldn't he have either died again at some point? Or is Jesus still walking around?

 

I'm just asking.

[Nicholas]

The story goes that the second time he didn't die, he just went up to heaven.

[Chris777]

He was tortured pretty severely before they crucified him.

And that is based on what the gospels mention, not nessesarily everything he endured.

 

Jesus actually ascended into Heaven right away, and thus escaped "death."

Where did you get this?

[Yamaha]

Do you believe that Jesus even existed?

[Nicholas]

Where did you get this?

Um, The Ascension? It happened forty days after his resurrection; he just went up to heaven without experiencing a second mortal death.

 

If you're one of those scriptural people:

 

So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

-Mark 16:19

 

And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

-Luke 24:51

 

It is further referenced by Paul and Timothy and stuff.

[Chris777]

Though his mortal body died on the Cross, Jesus actually ascended into Heaven right away, and thus escaped "death."

Oh I thought you were saying he pulled a "last temptation" type deal, rather than it being well after his death and ressurection

[westernxer]

Oh I thought you were saying he pulled a "last temptation" type deal, rather than it being well after his death and ressurection

 

I love that movie.

[burning 4 revenge]

I love that movie.

 

I thought the movie was awful

 

Didn't Scorcesse play The Eye of the Tiger at some point in the film?

 

And nobody, i mean nobody is going to buy Harvey Keitel as Judas

[burning 4 revenge]

I actually liked The Passion better and that's saying something

[westernxer]

And nobody, i mean nobody is going to buy Harvey Keitel as Judas

 

How about David Bowie as Pontius Pilate?

 

Haven't seen Passion yet... they should've called it Braveheart 2, given that William Wallace was portrayed as this Christ figure, especially toward the end.

[burning 4 revenge]

I kind of liked Bowie as Pontius Pilate, I think he should play him more often.

 

And, yeah, The Passion and Braveheart are basically the same movie with super noble protagonists being persecuted by super-evil villains.

 

I had to repect the Armaic though, that was pretty cool.

[westernxer]

For the record, the best Jesus movie is The Life of Brian.

[Chinook]

it was common practice to break the legs of those who had been crucified after they had been nailed up for a while, to ensure they couldn't support themselves on the cross and would get on with the business of dying. the weight of gravity on their unsupported bodies would place an intolerable strain on their lungs you see, due to the elevation of their arms, which led to rapid asphyxiation.

 

we are told that the reason the leg-breaking didn't happen in jesus' case was that when the roman soldiers came to do it, he was already dead. so their stuck a spear in him instead to be extra sure.

 

Just a theory....

 

The spear may not necessarily have finished him off (sorry to sound so crass). The spear I believe was supposedly shoved in at Jesus' side through the lower ribs...? Not sure. The intercostal muscles in this area are quite hard and fibrous (hence holding the rib cage rigid). In addition to that the lungs exert a negative pressure so that they stay inflated. If the spear went through the ribs but did NOT penetrate the lungs then it's possible Jesus could have survived with just a rib muscle tear. Unlikely seeing as the muscle is relatively thin. But it is possible. This is why in films you see them go for the 'realistic' approach of under the ribs and upwards.

 

So, that said... IF the spear penetrated the lung it would have to be with sufficient force to cause the lung to collapse. For a collapsed lung to cause a threat to life, it would have to be significantly deflated and death would occur within around 3 minutes once the lung has deflated and the midline of the chest has shifted and caused the heart to be crushed. But usually if there is less than 20% deflation this would cause some pain and breathlessness but alot of people can wonder around like that with no problems - i.e. it's not enough to shift the mid-line and crush the heart. This is why on films you see them say "don't take the knife out!" IF Jesus sustained a punctured lung (pneumothorax) he may well have still survived it. It's unlikely but possible... given that Roman foot soldiers weren't that well trained (only centurions and legionnaires (I think) were) and their weapons weren't exactly fantastic.

 

(Cardiothoracic Nurse just in case anyone was wondering )