selfless love is just an illusion

[November-Rain]

Carrying on, I'm glad to hear that you are working through all this mess at your own pace.

 

You strike me as a pretty level headed person, despite the disillusionment of what you had to wake up to. I have no real advice to give you, because I have not walked in your shoes, however the advice that is given here by most on this site is priceless.

 

 

Most of the posters on this site have real validity. I have certainly received beneficial advice that has saved me in more ways than you could ever imagine.

 

I think it would be safe to say that you have touched our hearts and we are learning from you as well, and with anticipation we are hoping you come out of this chin up, chest out, with your dignity and pride!

[CarryingOn123]

Hi guys,

I am back. I went away for a day to a friend’s place and we went out sailing. I felt better after having spent time with these lovely people around me.

 

I was reading this thread last night and read and re-read your posts.

 

BUT if you loved her unconditionally, if you had that 'selfless love' you accuse her of not having, maybe you'd want to attempt to save your marriage.

I honestly don't mean to sound insulting CarryingOn but you aren't willing to stick around when the going gets tough either are you?

I hope things get easier for you,

Take care

veronese x

 

 

It sounds like he still believes in selfless love between partners, but my comment is that I don't believe that way any more.

 

Selfless love is between parents and their children. Everything else - including love between spouses - is conditional. Conditional on fidelity, conditional on absence of abuse, conditional on meeting emotional needs, conditional on consciousness. I used to think the love between my wife and me was selfless and unconditional, then I lost my innocence.

 

…………….I have also learned that unconditional, selfless love between spouses is an illusion.

 

If selfless, unconditional love is only that way up to a point, it really isn't completely selfless and unconditional, is it………………..

 

One of the most agonizing things I learned from my divorce was that my fantasy of selfless, unconditional love was just that - a fantasy.

 

 

There is one fundamental point that I don’t agree with both of you guys. …

 

 

You have a lot of telecom companies who offer you bundled packages i.e. Telephone, internet, cable tv, etc. But we have to realize that even though it ia all bundled together these are all separate services by itself

Similarly, I think you guys are bundling love, You guys said “selfless and unconditional”, while I have to say it should be split up as “selfless love”, and “unconditional love”. I believe your love can be both or just one or none of the above. I would classify mine as selfless but conditional love. It was conditional on fidelity, trust, etc. My selfless love was a product of what I perceived as her feeling towards me. I have already admitted that I don’t feel that way anymore in my earlier post

 

 

You asked me if I still loved her- I dont know...maybe a little, but let me tell you what I do know for sure. If we got back together, I will not feel like putting myself in the line of fire to protect her. That is a sad fact. and that I'm sure of. So then I ask myself.... is that the kind of relationship that I want... No... I will hopefully find a relationship in future where I can be where my heart can rule over my head.

 

Replies to other messages

 

 

CarryingOn, I think you are handling this very well. ……

You have been handed lemons. You can either choose to make Lemonade or you can choose to swallow a bitter pill.

 

 

It hard to reply to quotations or proverbs, but I will try to put it in my context… Well, I realize that my life now is a lemon, and I know that I would rather make lemonade… Well the question is should I make it with the soda that has lost its fizz and make a flat lemonade, or find a soda with good fizz and make a proper lemonade. .

 

If she had 'replaced' you, she wouldn't be talking to you now would she?

Be honest with her, don't hold back anything, be respectful and work to understand her POV. Anything you hold back now will just come back later and bite you harder.

 

 

Whether you like it or not, your wife chose to move on. She gave up on you. Yes, by moving on, that is what she did. Therefore, let her stick to that decision and move on.

 

 

I think you're stressed out because you convinced yourself that she considered you 'replaceable' and rejected you. You have to stop upsetting yourself by thinking this way. When are you scheduled to meet?

Her actions have made him feel this way.

 

You have said it rightly there WWIU. Thank you. That is exactly how I feel.

 

Sometimes there's just too much water under the bridge. (

 

My thought again…

 

 

Now that CarriedOn is on the mend, she offers to leave the OM, who fully expected to have a life with her and to raise a family together. She's even said that she would terminate his child if that's what it takes.

(

 

 

If I were you, I would wait and see how you feel later and see what your wife does. If she were to split with this guy without knowing whether you'll come back, then I'd take her more seriously. On the other hand, if she were to keep him around and string him along until you decide, then I'd have a hard time believing she was genuine, because I think it's selfish to be with someone you don't really love, baby or no baby. To me, if she needs to keep him around as a back-up when she doesn't love him, it would be a sign of her weakness.

 

Well, what she has told me is that she has discontinued that relationship, whatever happens. Apparently he is moving into another place next week. She said she didn’t really love him but that she had given it everything to try to do so. She said she realized that she couldn’t do it anymore. I think she is only indecisive about the baby.

 

 

I think that's a good question you should ask yourself, CO123. If it were me, I wouldn't tell her unless I knew I wanted to be with her. If I were unsure or thought I didn't, I would let her decide on her own, without any input from me. It would be unfair to lead her toward an abortion by saying, "I can't be with you if you have another man's child" when you might decide not to be with her later.

 

 

I look at it as the final nail in the coffin; it is definitely the point of no return. But like you said, even without the baby- the chances aren’t that better.

 

Well, an update on the situation.. Nothing much happened; she was making her nightly calls to my sis-in-law about my progress, during the conversation told my sis that she was distressed my ex-girlfriend was visiting me regularly and spending time with me. (she was my first girlfriend, and she is a nice girl and we split up because she moved abroad with her family because of her father’s job). She came back about 3 years ago and got back in touch with me wanting to get back together, I told her that I was happily married, but that I would like us to remain friends. I told my wife who she was and what our relationship was, and everything, and have been good friends since then. She has been visiting me regularly, about once a week, and spends a day with me. She is a very supportive friend and has not tried to influence me one way or the other. .

 

My sis told my wife all this, but my wife told her she was feeling very insecure. She asked her if she could talk to me. I accepted the call, She asked me how I was, and if I was feeling better (because I became sick when she saw me last). She asked me if I could continue to talk to her and meet her, and she believes that we could work through this. I told her I will see. I told her that I decided to see a counselor and she said she knew a good marriage counselor, and I told her if was looking for a trauma counselor.

 

She told me that she will do anything to try to make things right, I told her I will talk to her and meet her, but not immediately. She was crying and begging me not to “shut her out” and not to hate her. I told her that I do not hate her. She then asked me if I loved her that I did in some ways, but not like how I felt before. She told me that she loved me more than from before the accident. I didn’t reply to that because I didn’t want to make a snide remark and hurt her.

 

Well, I made an appointment with a counselor- my wife had suggested that I go to one who she went to during my coma, but I felt that would be too tangled. I thought a separate counselor would be better and set up the appointment with him. He gave me a ring and just said hi, and that he is looking forward to talking to me, and he just got the brief background from me. I have my first appointment in a couple of days.

[whichwayisup]

You have said it rightly there WWIU. Thank you. That is exactly how I feel.

 

You're welcome.

 

Just make sure she understands this too. Just about everything you're feeling is because she bailed on you, met someone else, made plans and got pregnant. (Not sure if that was planned or not, but still...)

 

Time is the only thing that you can count on. Time to get used to life again, to figure out what YOU want.

 

Well, what she has told me is that she has discontinued that relationship, whatever happens. Apparently he is moving into another place next week. She said she didn’t really love him but that she had given it everything to try to do so. She said she realized that she couldn’t do it anymore. I think she is only indecisive about the baby.

 

The thing is, she must have loved him enough to not wait for you ... 17 months (to me anyway) is NOT a long time. For her to find someone else and get on with life - That better be love!!

 

She called it off and now has a baby to think of. I'm sure this decision of hers is NOT going to be easy (and I feel for the OM as he's probably a mess too - What a painful situation for you all... )

 

You may decide sometime in the future it would best (for you) to leave her in your past because what happened is alot to deal with and move past...Or maybe things will workout with the help of counselling. I don't know...

 

But right now your main focus should be on getting yourself 100% again and ENJOY life! Enjoy all the little and big things that you've missed.

 

I'm sorry for all that you've been through and are going through now. It is good though that you have a loving family and friends around. The positive thing about this is, you're going to come out of it an even stronger person than you are now.

 

Get some sleep and good luck with the counselling. Post back soon.

[Outcast]

The thing is, she must have loved him enough to not wait for you

 

Oh WWIU That's SUCH A huge assumption to make and there are so many ways it could be wrong You cannot speak for this lady. It's unfair to assume you understand her motivations and then blame her for them. She herself said she couldn't fall for the guy. Clearly she didn't 'love' him. As to what she was doing, only she might know - and even she might need the help of a counsellor to figure herself out.

 

It's just not fair to think we know why people do what they do and then judge them without them allowing to speak in their own defense

[Guest]

CO123 counseling is a good thing. Man I am really pulling for you. In my heart I wish there was a way to wave a magic wand and fix everything and make it right for you. I have learned one thing and that is you are teaching me what unconditional love is and I think I am living it right now only my ex doesn't feel the same. Please do secure the rights to this story. I swear it would be a best selling book or blockbuster movie.

[Ladyjane14]

Clearly she didn't 'love' him.

 

If she didn't love him, she was certainly doing a damn fine imitation of it.

 

She was living with him, engaged to be married, expecting his baby, and on a cruise with him to be followed up by a holiday with his extended family... when CarriedOn awakened from his coma.

 

I'm totally with you, Outcast, in respecting that this lady's circumstances were extraordinary. It's hard to imagine how difficult it must feel to be in her position.

 

But... the facts speak for themselves. Her actions don't jive with her words. It doesn't make sense to do all the things that she did... with someone she didn't love. She was going to end her marriage to CarriedOn in order to marry this OM. I find it hard to believe that she could have made a decision like that lightly.

 

I think the truth could be found in interviewing the OM. I doubt CarriedOn is feeling up to that right now, but if it were me... I don't think I could accept just the wife's side of the story. I think I'd need to hear OM's version too.

[Outcast]

the facts speak for themselves

 

Oh no they don't. There are many, many reasons why a woman might do what she did. Perhaps were it you, there would be only one reason and that would be love. However she is not you and to assume that her motivations would be the same is simply unfair. The 'facts' as you put it are that she has dumped the guy in favour of her own husband.

 

There is not evidence supporting any conclusion that she 'loved' the other guy and even less that she chose the other guy for 'love'. Certainly many many people on LS and elsewhere couple up for a variety of reasons; loneliness, horniness, etc etc etc. So to insist that she did it for 'love' is simply not a conclusion anybody can logically draw.

[Ladyjane14]

Oh no they don't. There are many, many reasons why a woman might do what she did. Perhaps were it you, there would be only one reason and that would be love. However she is not you and to assume that her motivations would be the same is simply unfair. The 'facts' as you put it are that she has dumped the guy in favour of her own husband.

 

There is not evidence supporting any conclusion that she 'loved' the other guy and even less that she chose the other guy for 'love'. Certainly many many people on LS and elsewhere couple up for a variety of reasons; loneliness, horniness, etc etc etc. So to insist that she did it for 'love' is simply not a conclusion anybody can logically draw.

 

You're right. She could have had other reasons. But I can't imagine any that are very nice. If she was only lonely or horny... then she was using him to provide companionship and sex.

[veronese]

Why are YOU blaming him for HER mistake!? She's the one who messed around, got Pregnant, and made a SEX tape with OM! What's WRONG with YOU?! He has a right to not want to be with her.

 

I really am NOT blaming CarryingOn for his wife's mistake, I'm not sure why you think that. I agree that he is perfectly justified to not want to be with her given the circumstances.

 

I expressed my sympathy towards him and said that as I haven't been through anything similar I don't know what I would do in his shoes and hope he realises I wasn't judging him.

 

If I'd been in coma for 17mths and woke up to find my H was with a new woman who was pregnant with his child I would be devastated and quite possibly would want no more to do with him.

 

It's just that CarryingOn and his wife were very much in love before the accident and were very happy together but I do appreciate that the circumstances now may be insurmountable. It seems a shame for them both to have lost something so good is all.

 

CO123, I hope my post didn't come over as nasty towards you, I didn't mean it like that and only wanted to give you another angle to think about.

 

I wish you all the very best and hope things do improve for you soon.

 

Hugs

 

Veronese

[CarryingOn123]

CO123, I hope my post didn't come over as nasty towards you, I didn't mean it like that and only wanted to give you another angle to think about.

 

I wish you all the very best and hope things do improve for you soon.

 

Hugs

 

Veronese

 

It didn't, & dont worry about it. And thanks for the hugs:)

 

It's just that CarryingOn and his wife were very much in love before the accident and were very happy together but I do appreciate that the circumstances now may be insurmountable. It seems a shame for them both to have lost something so good is all.

 

How do you think I feel about this. But, I realise that you have to try and move on in life and not hold on to memories of the past- using that to blot out the realities of the present. I really loved her, and I thought she really loved me back as well. Its a shame that she didn't love me enough.....

[CarryingOn123]

I think the truth could be found in interviewing the OM. I doubt CarriedOn is feeling up to that right now, but if it were me... I don't think I could accept just the wife's side of the story. I think I'd need to hear OM's version too.

 

I dont think I will ever want to do that. That is what I was trying to see for myself. Do I really want to go down that path, or just let bygones be bygones and move on.

[whichwayisup]

I dont think I will ever want to do that. That is what I was trying to see for myself. Do I really want to go down that path, or just let bygones be bygones and move on.

 

One day you might, especially if you need closure. You may want to know more.

[Mz. Pixie]

I think one thing that bothers me about this is her lack of being able to say anything earth shattering.

 

I was with her in the beginning overwhelmed by grief, yada yada, but she said nothing to reinforce that as her reasons.

 

It was mostly about making the OM disposable at this point, as well as the baby- which is even sadder to me. The OM might be disposable, but the baby? Innocent and never asked to be conceived.

 

She probably does love Carrying On- but yet she tossed him aside because he was ill. Now she's tossing aside the OM because Carrying On is back among the alert and living. Just doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

 

Not that it has to, but I'm just calling it like I see it.

[whichwayisup]

She probably does love Carrying On- but yet she tossed him aside because he was ill. Now she's tossing aside the OM because Carrying On is back among the alert and living.

 

She needs to go talk to someone. Because her actions have also shown when the chips are down she cannot deal with it. I'm sure she's a mess too and that's why she needs one on one therapy as well.

 

Godforbid anything awful ever happens again, either healthwise or something. How the heck is CO123 going to fully trust she'll be there for him in the future?

[Outcast]

she said nothing to reinforce that as her reasons.

 

Um. Were you there? All we have is the one side as reported by a distressed listener. While I'm sure he tried to report what went on accurately, we can't be sooooo certain that we heard 100% of either side. We never do here.

[Mz. Pixie]

Um. Were you there? All we have is the one side as reported by a distressed listener. While I'm sure he tried to report what went on accurately, we can't be sooooo certain that we heard 100% of either side. We never do here.

 

No, I wasn't there. I can only go by what he's saying and since he is the person here asking for advice, that's all I can address at this time.

[Ladyjane14]

.....I realise that you have to try and move on in life and not hold on to memories of the past- using that to blot out the realities of the present.

 

This is another one of the things that bugs me about your situation. Today's present will become tomorrow's memories.

 

You two were really young in your marriage, just two years into it. ALOT of stuff happens over the course of a long marriage. Some of it, not so pleasant. But the "not so pleasant" is usually balanced out by good memories of better days. Right now, you don't have too many that will withstand the memories of tomorrow.

 

Some of tomorrow's memories will be tough to deal with. The memory of your family breaking the news to you that your wife had moved on. The memory of finding the video tape where she recreated an experience that you two had shared together with someone else. The memory of the OM's belongings littered around your house, and your belongings packed away in the garage. The memory of your first awkward meeting after the accident.

 

The future memories of things yet to come will include either the birth or the termination of the OM's child. Anniversaries of events related to your accident will continue to accumulate. Taking your wife along into the future with you makes it impossible to put this incident behind you, because so much of the future will incorporate these memories.

 

Now, that might not necessarily be a bad thing. But I do think that making the decision requires forethought. Can you really handle incorporating this bad thing that happened to you into your future on a daily basis?

 

The trauma counseling that you're about to begin should help you sort some of that out. But... I think it's possible that you'll be facing pressure before you're really ready to make these big decisions. If your wife isn't emotionally self-reliant, she'll be looking to lean on YOU. And I think it would be a mistake to allow it until you're healed enough to choose it for yourself.

 

In a very real way... you were as one who is dead. Your awakening was like a rebirth of sorts. Life moved on without you. Life does that. But I think maybe in being 'reborn', you can create an opportunity to make fresh choices. The trick is going to be in keeping people from trying to make your choices for you. If you want to preserve the freedom to choose for yourself, you might have to be fairly insistant with some of the people around you that they give you all the time you need.

[Guest]

This is another one of the things that bugs me about your situation. Today's present will become tomorrow's memories.

 

You two were really young in your marriage, just two years into it. ALOT of stuff happens over the course of a long marriage. Some of it, not so pleasant. But the "not so pleasant" is usually balanced out by good memories of better days. Right now, you don't have too many that will withstand the memories of tomorrow.

 

Some of tomorrow's memories will be tough to deal with. The memory of your family breaking the news to you that your wife had moved on. The memory of finding the video tape where she recreated an experience that you two had shared together with someone else. The memory of the OM's belongings littered around your house, and your belongings packed away in the garage. The memory of your first awkward meeting after the accident.

 

The future memories of things yet to come will include either the birth or the termination of the OM's child. Anniversaries of events related to your accident will continue to accumulate. Taking your wife along into the future with you makes it impossible to put this incident behind you, because so much of the future will incorporate these memories.

 

Now, that might not necessarily be a bad thing. But I do think that making the decision requires forethought. Can you really handle incorporating this bad thing that happened to you into your future on a daily basis?

 

The trauma counseling that you're about to begin should help you sort some of that out. But... I think it's possible that you'll be facing pressure before you're really ready to make these big decisions. If your wife isn't emotionally self-reliant, she'll be looking to lean on YOU. And I think it would be a mistake to allow it until you're healed enough to choose it for yourself.

 

In a very real way... you were as one who is dead. Your awakening was like a rebirth of sorts. Life moved on without you. Life does that. But I think maybe in being 'reborn', you can create an opportunity to make fresh choices. The trick is going to be in keeping people from trying to make your choices for you. If you want to preserve the freedom to choose for yourself, you might have to be fairly insistant with some of the people around you that they give you all the time you need.

 

Not making excuses for his wife, but is it possible that she recreated the things she used to do with the OP because she had a huge void in her life and was trying to meet that need? I am in no way making excuses for her but sadly I can understand to a certain degree.

 

If I were in a similar sitation I don't know that I wouldn't be weak and miss the closeness of my spouse to the point I would be driven to seek that need through another.

 

All of this is very unfortunate. The OP has to decide what it is that he wants. Unconditional love has been lost but I believe the marriage can be saved.

[Ladyjane14]

Not making excuses for his wife, but is it possible that she recreated the things she used to do with the OP because she had a huge void in her life and was trying to meet that need?

 

I imagine she did have a huge void in her life. But there again, I have to wonder if she's an emotionally self-reliant person. If she's not, and she needs other people to fill the void... I'm not sure CarriedOn is in a position to accomodate her just yet. He's been through a traumatic event, and he's got alot to sort out.

 

 

 

(Nice post about "Real Love" btw, 2long. Something to snack on this evening. )

[Walk]

Unconditional love is extending oneself in the service of the spiritual growth of oneself and/or another, independently of reward or the behavior of others."

unconditional love -- where people care about our happiness with no thought for what they might get for themselves.

It's Real Love when people don't get disappointed or angry when we make our foolish mistakes, even when we inconvenience them personally.

 

Maybe my thinking is off... but I am not convinced there is such a thing as "unconditional love". And your post didn't get me any closer to believing it.

 

This "theory" only works if both partners have the same concept, and are working for the same goal. But then, your behavior is rewarded by your partners behavior which mirrors your own beliefs. So even though you convinced yourself that you do give without expectation of a reward... the person is still expecting that the other person will treat them in the same manner. Ergo, expectation of a reward for unconditional love. Which means, it's conditional.

[CarryingOn123]

I just something on a whim today. Dont know if it is right or not. But my ex called me yesterday and asked if she can come and visit me( she figured out where I was). I told her that I wasn't ready for that now, and I'll get back in touch with her when I am ready to see her again. She asked me if I could jointly visit her counselor as she could handle both sides together. I told her that I didn't want to do that as I wanted to clear my thoughts first. She said that she feared that I will block her out from my life and that is why she wanted to see the counselor jointly. Then I told her that I have a lot of feelings and emotions to deal with and that is when I told her that if she wants to know what is going on in my head, then she can come and read this thread... I dont know if that was the right thing to do, but I felt at that that it is best that she understood the situation totaly from my side. I wasnt feeling like sitting down and talking to her, and opening myself and being vulnerable with her. so I thought the least I could do was to tell her where she can understand what I am thinking. ..I am not sure, now, if I did the right thing or not.

[whichwayisup]

So she knows about this place? Not too sure if that was a good idea just because this place is for YOU. Where you can vent, cry, share and get help from us all.

 

I will say, she's pushing you too much. She really isn't putting your needs first, she's only thinking of herself and honestly, that pisses me off. It's obvious you're not emotionally ready to deal with this quite yet and she MUST give you that time. On your terms. Hopefully she'll respect your wishes.

 

Don't let her pressure you into anything. Take it real slow.

 

Why not write her a letter? Put your thoughts down there so she can read it. Maybe understand abit better.

[CarryingOn123]

One day you might, especially if you need closure. You may want to know more.

 

I dont know about the future, but right now, Ijust want to stay as far away as possible.

 

I was with her in the beginning overwhelmed by grief, yada yada, but she said nothing to reinforce that as her reasons.

 

Um. Were you there? All we have is the one side as reported by a distressed listener. While I'm sure he tried to report what went on accurately, we can't be sooooo certain that we heard 100% of either side. We never do here.

 

No, I wasn't there. I can only go by what he's saying and since he is the person here asking for advice, that's all I can address at this time.

 

Both of you are correct here... She did say that she had overwhelming grief and etc, etc... but as I had mentioned in my earlier post, I wasnt questioning her or asking for any clarifications, I was just sitting there listening, so she didn't go deeper into her feelings, but were sticking to the sequence of events. I am sorry that i missed to mention this. I had said that my post was a jist of a 3 hour meeting, and I didn't include this because.....

You're right. She could have had other reasons. But I can't imagine any that are very nice.

.

 

. ..exactly

 

Godforbid anything awful ever happens again, either healthwise or something. How the heck is CO123 going to fully trust she'll be there for him in the future?

 

right again...

 

 

She needs to go talk to someone. Because her actions have also shown when the chips are down she cannot deal with it. I'm sure she's a mess too and that's why she needs one on one therapy as well.

 

she told me she started seeing her old conselor again. So I know ahe is doing that. It is this lady that she wanted me to go too...(please see my earlier post)

[whichwayisup]

I realized that earlier but didn't change my post. Sorry 'bout that. I'm glad that she's seeing someone to help her.

[CarryingOn123]

So she knows about this place? Not too sure if that was a good idea just because this place is for YOU. Where you can vent, cry, share and get help from us all.

On hindsight, I felt like that too, that is why I told you I had a a bad feeling about what I had done.. But the damage is done now...