selfless love is just an illusion

[Outcast]

I just needed her to be there for me

 

But there was no 'you' to be there for. There was a body. Unable to even open its eyes and look at her. For more than a year and a half. When by far the majority of people in that situation are goners after just a few months.

 

If, CO, she had done what she did after a few weeks, or even a few months, then maybe I'd be supporting your side of it. But it was way longer - way beyond the expected lifespan of coma patients.

 

We have had a few posters lately telling about their partners who abandoned them because they had cancer. And these were alive, well, speaking, able to kiss, look, have sex, etc.

 

Tell me, CO. Did your wife have a succession of bfs before you? How long did she ever spend uncoupled?

 

We see it all the time on LS - people who just have to have an opposite gender companion. They can't bear being on their own - and friends, relatives, etc. won't cut it. They HAVE to have a bf or gf. And it's my guess that this lady is one of those types of people who will take anything over being solo, no matter how unsatisfactory.

[newbby]

Quite honestly, I can’t conceive that. He went after what he wanted, with no consideration for anyone else. He wasn’t in any mental trauma or stress. He was fully aware of what he was doing. He saw an opportunity and the sleazy bastard moved in.

 

oh yeah, she was at fault too, it takes two to tango. Right. But I cant go ruthlessly against someone you once thought was the love of your life. It is not something you can turn on and off

 

 

 

It might not always be someone else’s fault. But in this case it is. That slimeball knew everything, since his sister was one of her good friends, and still pursued her to get his rocks off, and my wife “kindly obliged”

 

 

 

 

 

Of course. He was doing it out of the goodness of his heart, he was just being a good Samaritan. And that he had an axe to grind is only a minor detail that is being hyped up….

 

 

 

I don’t see how he was a victim till I woke up. (& for the record my heart id bleeding for the pain I caused him by recovering). HE knew everything all along, and went through with it with his eyes wide open. My wife had told him that she wasn’t in love with him, and that was ok with him- he was getting what he wanted.

 

 

 

FYI, the other guy called my bro about a month back asking to meet/speak to me. I asked my bro to pass a message that included “sun doesn’t shine”

 

and what if you are wrong?

 

understand you are angry.

[LakesideDream]

Carryingon123, I have followed this thread for some time, mostly in wonder. I have read your responses to many unbelievable posts.

 

As threads grow, people seem to get more combative. I don't understand it however I have noticed it in this forum and others on various subjects.

 

Obviously you have chosen not to be a victim. I congradulate you. You seem to have chosen to "move on" with your newly recovered life and for that I appluad you.

 

There is no reason for you to do something that does not make you happy or "feel right". I can understand your position with clairity. In your position I can easily see myself reacting the same way you have.

 

Many here feel the need to "forgive". I believe you have, however you are not willing to forget. It is very difficult to re-establish a relationship where one spouse decided to put their sexual and emotional needs ahead of the other partners. It must be doubly difficult when the "wronged" partner literally had nothing to do with the infidelity, or reasons for it.

 

You risked everything for this woman once. There is no reason or need to do it again. Hopefully you will be able to "live happily ever after" and she will have a life of regret, remembering what she squandered so casually.

 

Good Luck!

[newbby]

Call me primitive, but I (still) feel that it is as far as a romantic relationship goes. I feel it is a decision for life. But if my wife feels like you, then our marriage ending may not be such a big thing after all for her. But since, that is not what she said, I doubt that even she feels this way.

 

just because it is how you feel, doesnt mean it is right, and that anyone who feels differently should be punished.

i believe in love, but i dont believe that marriage matters above all else. but this is not about me.

so even if marriage is for life, it doesnt make it indestructible. you cannot rely on the fact that (i am guessing you are christian) you spoke vows, and think that nothing can go wrong and that it will hold stronger than peoples human vulnerabilities and emotions, then hate the people for being human.

i know you are angry and shocked, about this tragedy, but what are you getting revenge for?

[newbby]

In that same vein, is it so unimaginable to find that in the light of all this that I find that my feelings seem to have changed.

 

not at all. i am not surprised your feelings have changed, and you should never be judged for that.

[newbby]

I seem to be missing something here. What does she need to forgive me for (or for what do I need to seek forgiveness from her?)

 

for not forgiving her, maybe

[CarryingOn123]

.............................................................

...............

...................

..............Good Luck!

 

Thank you...

[CarryingOn123]

just because it is how you feel, doesnt mean it is right, and that anyone who feels differently should be punished.

i believe in love, but i dont believe that marriage matters above all else. but this is not about me.

so even if marriage is for life, it doesnt make it indestructible. you cannot rely on the fact that (i am guessing you are christian) you spoke vows, and think that nothing can go wrong and that it will hold stronger than peoples human vulnerabilities and emotions, then hate the people for being human.

i know you are angry and shocked, about this tragedy, but what are you getting revenge for?

 

I am not talking about the ritual of saying the vows. I am talking more about what it all implied. The promises that you made to each other to love, to support, to protect each other. Through thick and thin. I dont think that nothing can go wrong, that is why we say "through thick and thin". She didnt promise me she will be my trusted partner only in good times, if that was the case we wouldn't have married in the first place.

 

i know you are angry and shocked, about this tragedy, but what are you getting revenge for?

 

I am trying to pay him back for callously moving in on my life when I was helpless, for his own selfish intentions

 

 

for not forgiving her, maybe

 

So are you saying, that it is the norm to be expected to be forgiven. That I have no other go other than to forgive her. And (hypothetically) if I can't, for whatever the reason, then I should apologise, as I am equally at fault- because I cant forgive. (whatever she might have done)

[CarryingOn123]

and what if you are wrong?

 

understand you are angry.

I understand that I am angry, but what if I am not wrong. BTW how may I be wrong- not haveing the correct facts, or by having the wrong reaction to the facts? and how do I find out if I am wrong or not?

[newbby]

I am not talking about the ritual of saying the vows. I am talking more about what it all implied. The promises that you made to each other to love, to support, to protect each other. Through thick and thin. I dont think that nothing can go wrong, that is why we say "through thick and thin". She didnt promise me she will be my trusted partner only in good times, if that was the case we wouldn't have married in the first place.

yes of course. i suppose what i meant is that when the thin is too thin for one or either to cope with, should they be condemned?

 

I am trying to pay him back for callously moving in on my life when I was helpless, for his own selfish intentions

how can you really know if it was callous or not? i understand what you are saying, that really he should have realised that your wife was vulnerable, but half the people in this forum cant even understand that, so it doesnt make him awful, neccessarily.

So are you saying, that it is the norm to be expected to be forgiven. That I have no other go other than to forgive her. And (hypothetically) if I can't, then I should apologise, as I am equally at fault- because I cant forgive. (whatever she might have done)

to err is human, to forgive is divine.

no, i am not saying that, but i suppose that not trying to understand when the other person actually did not intend harm, is quite an extreme unforgiving.

if you cannot forgive, then you cannot forgive, and so you are doing the right thing in not continuing the relationship.

[CarryingOn123]

yes of course. i suppose what i meant is that when the thin is too thin for one or either to cope with, should they be condemned?

 

No, they shouldn't be condemned. As you've already told me that you've just skimmed through the thread, I am telling you, that I did not wish her misery, I repeatedly said that if I walk away then I wish her all the best in all sincerity. I would be indifferent to wish her misery.

 

If the going gets too thin for one partner, and they choose to meet their needs from someone else, then let them move on and get all their needs met by that someone else rather than having their needs met by both. There is no problem in moving on with life, but just move right on...

 

how can you really know if it was callous or not? i understand what you are saying, that really he should have realised that your wife was vulnerable, but half the people in this forum cant even understand that, so it doesnt make him awful, neccessarily.

 

From the facts known, dont you think it was callous. He very well knew the situation, but still went for it. I know that doesnt make him espessially bad, because his behaviour seems to be widely accepted. I only know that I wouldn't have done it in his place.

 

to err is human, to forgive is divine.

no, i am not saying that, but i suppose that not trying to understand when the other person actually did not intend harm, is quite an extreme unforgiving.

if you cannot forgive, then you cannot forgive, and so you are doing the right thing in not continuing the relationship.

 

I am not divine, so to err is acceptable for me as well, I guess. The other guy might not have intended actual harm to the extent that he might not have tried to poison me or anything like that, but in many ways what he did was just worse. I was just a detail for him, That is why I want him to feel how it is when someone tries to take your life or something that you hold so valuable away.

[newbby]

No, they shouldn't be condemned. As you've already told me that you've just skimmed through the thread, I am telling you, that I did not wish her misery, I repeatedly said that if I walk away then I wish her all the best in all sincerity. I would be indifferent to wish her misery.

 

If the going gets too thin for one partner, and they choose to meet their needs from someone else, then let them move on and get all their needs met by that someone else rather than having their needs met by both. There is no problem in moving on with life, but just move right on...

i see, i misunderstood this part. sorry.

That is why I want him to feel how it is when someone tries to take your life or something that you hold so valuable away.

i am sure you didnt mean this as it came out LOL.

 

okay, yes, i think you are doing well to move on with your life, perhaps because of what the other posters were saying, i misunderstood.

[CarryingOn123]

Hey Outcast,

 

I dont know how I missed your post before. I think your posts take a while to appear or something, coz I had gone through every post before and didnt dee this post there.

 

But there was no 'you' to be there for. There was a body. Unable to even open its eyes and look at her. For more than a year and a half. When by far the majority of people in that situation are goners after just a few months.

 

We've been through this discussion before, you & me, I didn't agree then, I dont agree now. There was a me that she could be there for, there just wasn't a me that could be there for her.

 

Tell me, CO. Did your wife have a succession of bfs before you? How long did she ever spend uncoupled?

 

quite honestly, I dont know. I dont know (didn't think to ask, and it has never come up) the exact timings. I know that she had 4 boyfriends before me. I dont know for sure what was the longest that she spent uncoupled. I think it must be something like a year or a little less than that. I am just guessing about the time frame, based on what I do know of her past.

 

We see it all the time on LS - people who just have to have an opposite gender companion. They can't bear being on their own - and friends, relatives, etc. won't cut it. They HAVE to have a bf or gf. And it's my guess that this lady is one of those types of people who will take anything over being solo, no matter how unsatisfactory.

 

That doesn't make it any better, does it?

[CarryingOn123]

i am sure you didnt mean this as it came out LOL.

 

I am sorry, but how did it come out?

[silktricks]

My opinion really doesn't matter, as it's not my life, nor my choices. I had hoped that you would not take drastic actions quickly, as often with time attitudes adjust and opinions change. I think you are taking the easiest path, and maybe that's important for you to do at this time.

 

You have stated many times that you forgive your wife. I don't believe that it is possible for you to have forgiven her as quickly as you say you have done, as she dealt you a grievous blow. Also, forgiveness generally comes with understanding, and you don't seem to understand her position or plight at all. I think everything takes more time than you are willing to give yourself.

 

I don't believe that either you or your wife loved each other as deeply as either of you believed. What happened is a tragedy, made no less by the

[Outcast]

BTW how may I be wrong

 

In the motives and thoughts you ascribe to others. You believe that all these decisions were made rationally, clear-headedly, and sanely. People are very rarely rational and clear-headed and tend to be MUCH less so in times of stress and trauma. You have assumed you know exactly what was in their heads and you're mad at them because of your assumptions. People do it all the time and it's not right nor fair.

 

That doesn't make it any better, does it?

 

This is not the place for objective assessments of 'better' or 'worse'. People are what they are. If someone's the kind of person who must have companionship and does really stupid things to get it when they don't have it, it's an issue of theirs for some reason or other - fear, whatever. Doesn't make that person a bad person. Maybe means the person might need some counselling but it's not a killing offense.

 

People's inner issues drive them to do irrational and self-destructive things. And if you love someone, you take their issues as part of the package and work around them. Doesn't mean you don't try to get the person to acknowledge the issue and maybe get help for it, but it's not fair to condemn people because their heads aren't screwed on straight. And it's not fair to be mad at them for doing stupid things if their heads aren't screwed on right. Particularly when they themselves are horrified about what dumb things they've done and are abjectly sorry for them.

 

If what you must have is an emotionally and mentally strong person, then stipulate that if you dump this person and go looking for another. Run her through tests. Maybe send her to boot camp And then leave her for a year and don't talk to her or communicate in any way and see if she still has feelings when you come back. If she passes those tests, then consider marrying her.

[Roo]

CO123,

 

I am truly and deeply sorry for your entire situation, I do believe you are doing the best you can to handle yourself with dignity, in a terrible terrible situation that is well beyond your control, or the scope of what most people are dealt in their lifetime.

 

I have some thoughts after spending much of last night and all of this morning reading this thread in it's entirety. I cannot begin to know what it feels like t be you I can only imagine, but as an outsider looking in and having considered the many points others have raised here, it brings to my mind at least a few thoughts perhaps worth considering.

 

You speak of the marriage and of her betrayal of the "for better or worse" and while I do not want to seemingly lessen this betrayal or your pain to which you are fully entitled, if you do not give yourself the chance to see if you can TRY to forgive her for her mistake, to see if you can ever believe that it was truly a mistake, that she like many of us is human and did the best she could with the hand she was dealt (which much like yours was a really crappy hand), if you make no attempt because it is too painful for you are you not even if only secondarily equally as guilty of not honoring the "for better or worse" and surely this is the worse. I don't say this because I think you should or are in any way obligated to decide to stay, but I do think that real love is more often about forgiveness and understanding than it is always making the right choices.

 

I also believe that this unconditional love of which you speak, is possible, but I think that your love for her was conditional upon her unconditional love for you, or her unconditional loyalty? Her ability to put the needs of the man she loved before her own. It seems she was unable to fullfill that, as it seems are you. I do think from what I've read here that she is making an ernest effort to put your needs first now, even if she was unable to then, and I do think that it should be taken into consideration. Again I really cannot tell you what to do nor what I would do if I were you, but I think this does bring up many cliche's to mind when trying to decide how to move forward. She dissapointed you in a fundamental and unbelievable way, but do two wrongs make a right? Can you abandon your vow's just because she did?

 

The vow's of which you speak also say until death do us part... and while I do know you were alive, perhaps in order to deal with her grief in order to get up and function on a day to day basis in some way she had to in her mind's eye believe you dead, and try to grieve that loss. Whether or not you were breathing and your heart was beating she had lost something unimaginable, she had lost you who clearly she loved very much, and clearly for good reason you are an amazing person, I'm taken aback by your ability to step back and try to look at this from the point of view of others, and your willingness to put it all out here for us strangers to scrutinize, and pick apart.

 

I mean you no disrespect I fully comprehend that this is so intirely overwhelming and complex and emotionially loaded, I do not myself know if I woudl be of the strength or presence of mind that you are. But I can only offer you some food for thoutght based on what I can see sitting here reading the scenario from the other side of a 2-D screen that can hardly compare to being in your shoes dealing with the reality of your life in living color.

 

I really hope whatever you end up doing, however you move forward that you do make the choice that brings you happiness and peace with your choices and that you once again can enjoy and love life as you did before that awful fatefull day.

 

 

All the fondest wishes.

[lonelybird]

We see it all the time on LS - people who just have to have an opposite gender companion. They can't bear being on their own - and friends, relatives, etc. won't cut it. They HAVE to have a bf or gf. And it's my guess that this lady is one of those types of people who will take anything over being solo, no matter how unsatisfactory.[/

I can understand you try to let the OP see that human being is non-perfect and everybody has weakness, so Op can let his anger go. maybe he would really forgive her at last, but not now.

and who want to be with a person only for own convenience (when she want company, then you are there; when you have trouble, she find another)? can you?

The vow's of which you speak also say until death do us part

why demand so much from OP? not her? seems lots of pressure on him

[silktricks]

I don't know what happened to the last part of my previous post, but what I have attempted to convey is exactly what Roo conveyed so eloquently.

 

Growth has many facets, and I feel that you have much growing to do, CO. Your expectations of your wife were high. Her expectation of your recovery was low. It seems that you have both acted the worst way possible for two people who supposedly loved each other as you supposedly did.

 

You've said you forgive, but as I was trying to say, forgiveness - real genuine from the heart forgiveness - includes empathy. An understanding of the other person from their point of view. I have seen no heartfelt understanding from you towards anyone other than yourself. I hope that in time you can come to a true acceptance of humananity including the errors that all of us make, as it seems that is a long way from you at this point in your life.

 

Best of luck to you as you continue on your journey. (By the way, you have professed to be a Christian man, have you considered the possibility that what happened was a test of your Christian attitudes, rather than a test of your wife's?)

[lurkernomore]

Carrying,

 

I have lurked on this site for several months, but this is my first post. Your amazing story pulled me off of the sidelines.

 

You seem wiser and stronger than many of the people giving you advice on this thread. I'm sure that this virtual discussion provides a welcome outlet for you and helps you clarify your own thinking, but don't let it influence your decision-making too much. Of course you will need the support of others to make it through this traumatic time, but your best resource is yourself. Unless it helps you, I wouldn't spend much time trying to justify your feelings or actions to others, here or elsewhere. I think it is probably safe to assume that no one on this forum or in your life has experienced anything comparable to what you have recently experienced.

 

I respect the decisions that you have made thus far. I believe that your wife's actions, and the actions of the other man, while understandable, were indeed betrayals of the deepest kind. I don't believe that selfless, unconditional love exists in romantic relationships. I think that all romantic relationships are based on conditions and on each partner getting some significant part of their selfish needs met. Show me a relationship in which one person claims to love the other unconditionally and I will outline a simple series of actions that their partner could take that would systematically destroy that love. Show me a relationship in which one or both partners neglects their own needs, loving only selflessly, and I will show you a relationship in distress. Some may consider this view of love and relationships to be cynical or callous. But in my experience it can be quite beautiful when both partners accept that their relationship -- even if it is decades old -- is not an unbreakable bond forged by some dreamy notion of romantic love or fate but rather is held together quite tenuously by accountability, respect, hard work, and by each always living up to the implicit and explicit conditions of the other. It seems to me that your wife failed to live up to the conditions of your marriage.

 

But despite all that you have endured, be grateful. You survived the accident. You will find a way to put this mess behind you. You will reestablish your career. You will forge deeper bonds with friends and family. You will grow wiser, and stronger. You will dare to love again.

 

You will heal.

 

Good luck, my friend.

[CarryingOn123]

Hey, I am quite indisposed with time right now, but thought I'd just jot a quick post, and reply to the other ones later.

 

 

In the motives and thoughts you ascribe to others. You believe that all these decisions were made rationally, clear-headedly, and sanely. People are very rarely rational and clear-headed and tend to be MUCH less so in times of stress and trauma. You have assumed you know exactly what was in their heads and you're mad at them because of your assumptions. People do it all the time and it's not right nor fair.

 

I can at some level understand why a lot of people defend her, or empathise with her. But I cant, for the life of me, understand those who do that for the other guy. What stress or trauma was he under that was inhibiting his rationality:confused: .

 

Just a thought and like I said I will get back as soon as I can

[Outcast]

What stress or trauma was he under that was inhibiting his rationality .

 

I was talking about her.

[CarryingOn123]

I was talking about her.

 

You were using plural in your posts

[CarryingOn123]

I don't believe that either you or your wife loved each other as deeply as either of you believed.

Your opinion is your own. I atleast know about myself.

(By the way, you have professed to be a Christian man, have you considered the possibility that what happened was a test of your Christian attitudes, rather than a test of your wife's?)

I have not profesed to be a prophet, and I have already said I dont blindly accept the church's view. I pick and choose my own values.

It seems that you have both acted the worst way possible for two people who supposedly loved each other as you supposedly did.

I am sorry

 

You have stated many times that you forgive your wife. I don't believe that it is possible for you to have forgiven her as quickly as you say you have done, as she dealt you a grievous blow.

 

Oh, so you accept that it was indeed a grevious blow?

 

Well, I've also stated, many times, that I can forgive her and wish her all the best if we are seperating. I also said that the issues of betrayal, anger, forgivness etc are an issue only if we were getting back together.

[CarryingOn123]

CO123,

I have some thoughts after spending much of last night and all of this morning reading this thread in it's entirety. I cannot begin to know what it feels like t be you I can only imagine, but as an outsider looking in and having considered the many points others have raised here, it brings to my mind at least a few thoughts perhaps worth considering.

 

Thanks for making that effort, considering this is a pretty long thread.

 

I have lurked on this site for several months, but this is my first post. Your amazing story pulled me off of the sidelines.

 

Thanks Lurker, & for the wishes.