selfless love is just an illusion

[jonesgirly]

sometimes people feel that what another has done is unforgivable. That is okay, as long as it doesn't eat you alive and create a bitterness that festers (I like that word) forever.

 

I've been told that forgiveness is "for" the forgiver.....that it allows them to move forward without the anger, resentment, etc. That it somewhat says, in a way, that "hey, you screwed up - you're human - but I forgive you."

 

But its hard sometimes, because forvgiveness for the 'perpetrator' (for lack of a better word), seems to feel like a "you've been cleared of any wrongdoing as far as I'm concerned."

 

There are a couple schools of thought on forgiveness. One is that it is the 'right' thing to do, especially for yourself. There is also the thought that there are some things that can be deemed 'unforgivable' by a person.

 

I am, personally, pro-choice, so its all up to the individual.

 

But I DO feel strongly that forgiveness is not something that can be demanded, suggested, or requested. It is a kind of 'gift' that you give both yourself (first), and the other person (and is not always expressed to them that it has occured).

 

That is what makes it a very personal and private decision, something decided when the time is right... for you.

[whichwayisup]

People are saying that I need to forgive her. Ok! but let us figure out what it is exactly that I need to forgive. Is it betrayal and infidelity. In that case, there is something to forgive. But if she did nothing wrong, and it was a simple mistake like making a wrong turn and ending up losing your way in a car, then there is nothing to forget.

 

What does everybody else think?

 

I just re-read your first original post.

 

Honestly, it's painful. Maybe too painful to move forward with this woman. As much as you love her and want her back as things once were, that's not possible. Too much has happened and you have every right to feel the way you do. She bailed on you. In so many ways...

 

Not only did she move on, make arrangements to marry someone else, but moved SO fast into trying to settle the house, money etc...

 

Made afew snuff tapes, (which to you, when you two did that I'm sure it was something special and fun she did with you) But then you stumbled on the tapes which you thought were of YOU and HER, instead they were ones of the OM and your wife...So, in a way, that lessens the meaning of the tapes you did with her.

So, she fell inlove (but later denies it was actually love) did the tapes, got pregnant, got engaged- IN a short frame of time as well.

 

Is that forgivable? Can someone really get over that deep pain, that abdonment? Yes, the circumstances are awful and so sad...

 

Maybe some people could look past it all, work through it all and get over it, move on and be with that person...

 

I don't think trying to make CO123 feel guilty if he decides not to trust her again is doing any good. If he chooses to end the marriage and get a divorce, it's still a good thing for him. It's not the end of the world for him. He's already closed his heart to her, atleast emotionally.

 

It could be just too painful to forget. Has nothing to do about love...He does love her. Probably enough to let her go.

[Craig]

I could be barking up the wrong tree here but here it goes...are you experiencing guilt for somehow 'abandoning' your wife. Even though you didn't have much choice in the matter could it be possible that you are faced with an overwhelming sense of guilt, a guilt that is irrational but hard to face?

 

The title of this thread got me thinking about how your own 'selfless love is just an illusion.'

[Outcast]

Made afew snuff tapes

 

WWIU, 'snuff' means 'kill'. There is a sick kind of porno, thankfully rare, in which the woman is killed at climax. Don't be using the term 'snuff tapes' lightly.

 

The title of this thread got me thinking about how your own 'selfless love is just an illusion.'

 

I have been alluding to this all along. SHE was supposed to sacrifice everything and overcome HER hurt, pain, whatever and selflessly devote herself to you and not cause you a second of pain.

You, however, are allowed to wrap yourself in your pain and inflict pain on her in return by refusing to consider what she did anything less than 'betrayal'.

 

So, really, unless you can be as completely 'selfless' as you expected her to be (i.e. NOT thinking of your own pain or seeking any way to assuage it), how is your decision to reject her now fair?

 

If you can't do better, how can you expect anybody else to?

 

Well, it is not the same is it, If you wanted to draw a similarity, then it would have been that I fell off the boat, and drifted into another country's borders and was put in prison on immigration grounds. They would know I was there but had no way of contacting mt, ans me them. In that case I cant be declared dead , can I?

 

No but even in that case, there'd be hope of contacting you someday. How many people come out of a 17-month coma? Honestly, what were the odds? I'm guessing she could have bought loto tickets with better odds.

 

Originally Posted by Outcast

In fact there's been movies about that very thing over time. I remember seeing some oldies about it. You might want to rent a couple.

 

And almost all (if not all) did not have a good ending, isn't that so?

 

No.

 

But I wasn't the one who took someone else in when I didn't have memory. It was her! And she didn't have anything wrong with her memory.

 

Not the point. That wasn't the case I was making; that was an illustration of something different.

 

What you're saying is that if you lose your keys and get another set cut then finding the old keys means they don't exist. See how that doesn't scan?

 

Originally Posted by OutcastAre you saying that the keys to this relationship is me being well, or that I am able to meet all her needs (whatever the circumstances). Well in that case I wouldn't be too keen on going through that door.

 

Nope. Not at all. I was using 'keys' as an example of an item one can lose, not as a metaphor. Substitute 'frying pan' or 'rake' or 'underwear' or 'toothbrush'.

[jonesgirly]

Made afew snuff tapes

 

Holy god WWIU........I thought you were familiar with them for a minute there!

 

Puhleeze tell me you're not!

[whichwayisup]

OK well, I didn't know that word meant that. I always thought snuff meant porn tapes. Thanks for letting me know and now I feel really embarressed. :o

[jonesgirly]

I could be barking up the wrong tree here but here it goes...are you experiencing guilt for somehow 'abandoning' your wife. Even though you didn't have much choice in the matter could it be possible that you are faced with an overwhelming sense of guilt, a guilt that is irrational but hard to face?

TOTALLY different angle.......but to be considered nonetheless? I never even thought of it.

I can appreciate an open-minded approach to the world.

[Sup]

I have already checked up on that. Please see my earlier posts quoted below.

 

oh, ok:confused:

[Sup]

You could be. If you wanted to. But let me warn you that you can NEVER predict anything like that with anything close to 100% certainty. Talk to whoever it was who went through the similar experience. You can THINK you're 100% certain of something. For a while. But life changes you and you change and what you are soooo certain of at one point becomes irrelevant later.

 

 

 

It doesn't have to be. You can choose to not harden your heart. You can choose to believe that you were not 'betrayed' but rather that she sought comfort from harm in a less-than-wise way. And forgive her for making a mistake. But you have to drop your wish to think that she deliberately wounded you on purpose because that's what's stopping you from moving on.

 

OC please DROP it! He doesn't want to continue in a marriage like that, and who can blame him? He's already stated that. Hmmm, almost sounds like pushing from his wife, whether or not if OC really is wife in disguse, I dunno, I don't think so myself. CO123 the fact that a sex video was made by her and om DOES suggest that it was intentional, does wife know that you saw that messed up crap? Wife has to realize that SHE not you caused all of this, and as we all know "I'm sorry" DON'T wash, in my opinion, if she was really sorry, she wouldn't have done it in the first place.

[Outcast]

in my opinion, if she was really sorry, she wouldn't have done it in the first place

 

The reason I'm not dropping it is that I don't agree and I'm just about the only one on this side of the discussion. I disagree heartily. And I know that every single person condemning her for what she did has made stupid mistakes or done truly foolish things out of desperation. And expected to be forgiven for it.

[Sup]

You have to forgive her to be able to let go and move on.

You will still will not be able to forget.

 

The questions are:

Do you love her enough to forgive her and try again?

Do you really want to try again?

Have you gotten to the point where you feel you would be better served with someone new, whom you don't distrust? (there is no guarantee someone else won't cheat on you either).

 

If you were to try again with your wife, it will be some time before you could forget what happened. That baby is going to serve as a daily reminder for the rest of your years.

 

I am starting to lean towards your decision to cut her loose and let her go, CO123. I don't agree with abortion. Your wife made this decision, now she should have to live with the consequences. You should not have to live the rest of your dying days with the anger you would harbor against her for abandoning you and getting pregnant with another man's child.

 

Unfortunately for you, this is the hand you have been dealt. Deal with it as you see fit.

 

Unfortinately for her, she made this bed, now she must sleep in it. She should have thought about the consequences of her actions for breaking God's covenant. The only sin in which God will allow for divorce is infidelity. In this case, God would grant you a divorce, no questions asked.

 

The more I think about it, the happier I believe you will be with someone new. Someone you can trust and someone who does not have a lingering cloud over their head of infidelity and mistrust.

 

Whatever you decide I wish you the best of luck and I will pray for you.

 

He might or might not end up with Ex-girlfriend:confused:

[crazy_grl]

The reason I'm not dropping it is that I don't agree and I'm just about the only one on this side of the discussion. I disagree heartily. And I know that every single person condemning her for what she did has made stupid mistakes or done truly foolish things out of desperation. And expected to be forgiven for it.

 

I certainly hope there aren't a lot of people out there who expect to be forgiven for their stupid mistakes. I expect to face the consequences of mine and live with the outcome. I'm grateful to be forgiven for them.

[Outcast]

Well it's a sad world indeed when one makes mistakes and others are unforgiving. Whatever happened to 'to err is human'? The very essence of making a MISTAKE is that it was not deliberately undertaken to cause harm.

[Guest]

Well it's a sad world indeed when one makes mistakes and others are unforgiving. Whatever happened to 'to err is human'? The very essence of making a MISTAKE is that it was not deliberately undertaken to cause harm.

 

It could also be an act done with no consideration for the feelings of others. The perpetuator ignores how it will affect others and fails to respect their feelings.

 

That is only one way it can happen

[whichwayisup]

The reason I'm not dropping it is that I don't agree and I'm just about the only one on this side of the discussion. I disagree heartily. And I know that every single person condemning her for what she did has made stupid mistakes or done truly foolish things out of desperation. And expected to be forgiven for it.

 

The thing is, and I'll say it again, some things ARE forgiveable, but can't be forgotten. The pain may be too much and he may never get that trust back for her.

 

Unfortunately, her choice by going on without him, making plans so soon, has backfired and maybe in his eyes and in his heart, he can't be with her anymore.

[whichwayisup]

Well it's a sad world indeed when one makes mistakes and others are unforgiving. Whatever happened to 'to err is human'? The very essence of making a MISTAKE is that it was not deliberately undertaken to cause harm.

Doesn't it all depend on the actual situation?

 

What if she got involved with this guy 6 months into his coma. Would it be OK then? Should he welcome her back so fast?

 

Look, I do feel sad for his wife, but life is unfair isn't it? It was unfair that this whole accident happened to begin with. And it's unfair to him that now he's alive and on the mend and has to deal with his wife being pregnant by another man. Neither of them asked to be put in this position, but this is it.

 

Maybe if she wasn't pregnant, it would have made a difference. Maybe not.

[Outcast]

What if she got involved with this guy 6 months into his coma. Would it be OK then? Should he welcome her back so fast?

 

Depends, WWIU. Depends on the woman. If she's the sort of person who always had a bf, companion, something, then she's one of those people who can't bear being alone or feels lost without another human in her life or something like that. We see that sort all the time on LS; their bf is away for a weekend and they lose it.

 

Again, it's not like he was even in an LDR and she could talk to him. He was a lump of flesh in a bed. There was zero companionship. So it's not the same, IMHO, as 'cheating' on someone who's awake and breathing and talking to you and at least functioning. And, like I said, not a lot of people wake up after a year in a coma - so whether or not the doctors said he was moribund, I imagine she was pretty sure he was a goner.

 

Of course ideally every human should be strong and brave and manage crises in their lives perfectly. But c'mon - people aren't that tough. Most are fairly fragile, actually, and many don't do all that great under that kind of crisis. And that bears understanding, IMHO, by fellow humans who are, themselves, full of frailties.

[silktricks]

These decisions that CO123 is making seem WAY too fast and WAY too judgemental. In fact they seemed so terribly harsh against someone that he supposedly loved, that I've got too admit that I figured this thread was a scam and quit reading it for a long time.

 

However, on the off-chance that this is not a scam, this is my opinion. CO123 has been through a terrible time, as has his wife and family. If he was in love with his wife the way he indicated, I believe that he would find more forgiveness for what she was going through. If his wife was in love with him that way he indicated, though, she probably also would not have so soon (even a year and a half is not long when the person is still alive) decided to take steps to anul the marriage and marry someone else. So this fairy tale, soul-mate love that they supposedly had, I believe was neither that deep nor that enduring a love on either side.

 

CO123 needs to quit trying to make decisions that will affect the rest of his life while he is not yet recovered. He should tell his wife that he just doesn't know anything right now. He should continue on with therapy and find out what his limitations are. I personally feel that he should work on finding some humility and forgiveness as he seems to me to be a very judgemental, unforgiving sort, looking for reasons not to forgive rather than reason to do so.

 

His wife needs to make her own decision about keeping or aborting the baby (personally I'd let it come to term and then decide about adoption, but that's me. The baby didn't do anything.) Since it sounds like she doesn't love the other man, she shouldn't marry him. If things don't work out between CO123 and his wife, then she can proceed on with her life, but right now she shouldn't make any big decisions either. She's in a state of shock just as he is.

 

But the truth is, I think this is a scam. Supposedly, he was in a coma for 17 months. That's a year and a half. As is well-known, the longer the period of coma, the greater likelihood of severe (and I do mean severe) on-going problems after recovery. His indication is that he awoke in June and was basically immediately released from the hospital and began wandering around town on his own. Seventeen months of no use of his muscles, I'm sorry, but the man would not even be able to walk, let alone go around by himself.

 

CO123 has not stated how severe the coma was (where on the Glasgow scale). Nor has he stated what the doctors were telling his family. A 17 month coma is EXTREMELY long.

 

Now, again, (I'm sorry, but I really think this story is fake), supposedly CO123 just "woke up" apparently unexpectedly while his wife was on a cruise with this other guy whose baby she was expecting. Coma patients don't "just wake up". It's a very gradual process, beginning with opening their eyes. The process can take a number of days or even weeks. Again, the longer in a coma, the longer waking up takes.

 

So, if he "woke up" when she was at the beginning of the cruise, and he had a month to wander around finding things out about there would have been very good indication, probably for days and maybe even weeks prior to his "waking" that he was surfacing. She would have known. From the story, all the indications are that she loves the man very much. Had she known he was waking, she would not have gone on the cruise, nor continued her plans to anul her current marriage and marry the new-comer.

 

So those are my reasons for thinking this is a scam.

[Outcast]

LS frowns on people calling posters scammers. But certainly the question of how he can be in such good health that he's going off for a weekend so soon after waking from a coma had occurred. I, too, have been very surprised that he can go to friends' houses and basically seem to have no physical limitations.

 

I also have to wonder how a head injury severe enough to cause a 17 month coma could not leave residual damage of some sort. Would there not be problems with walking or talking or reason?

 

How could a person get whacked on the head that hard and wake up like Sleeping Beauty, undamaged???

[silktricks]

LS frowns on people calling posters scammers.

 

I'm sorry, I've seen it done fairly often - I didn't know that it was disapproved. (Guess I should re-read the rules once in awhile.)

[Outcast]

Note that some of the people do it vanish!

 

But I am interested in the medical points. It sounds as though you have some experience with this kind of issue. I'll be really interested to hear what the OP says about the results of having a head injury.

[silktricks]

I've been knocked out a few times, once landing in the hospital for a week from a head injury, so I had enough interest to look into it in the past.

[whichwayisup]

LS frowns on people calling posters scammers.

 

 

But certainly the question of how he can be in such good health that he's going off for a weekend so soon after waking from a coma had occurred. I, too, have been very surprised that he can go to friends' houses and basically seem to have no physical limitations.

 

I also have to wonder how a head injury severe enough to cause a 17 month coma could not leave residual damage of some sort. Would there not be problems with walking or talking or reason?

 

How could a person get whacked on the head that hard and wake up like Sleeping Beauty, undamaged???

 

You're more or less saying the exact same thing, yet in a different, well-worded non offensive way OC...

 

His situation is too detailed to be made up.

[MrsHellFire]

If my husband went off with another woman and got her pregnant within some months of my descent into a coma... no, im sorry, but that I don't think I could get over. But I really don't know.. maybe I could. I'd probably end up killing myself if that happened. My partner is not a weak piece of crap though that cannot be alone. He was alone for a while before we got together and actually was in a habit of turning women down. Guess he was picky or something. But, this is a TEST of love and character. If my husband failed that test, I don't think I could ever forgive him. After all, I'm laying in a hospital bed and on my deathbed and he quickly forgets me to marry off to someone else. What a mess. If I was dead, yeah I'd want him to be happy. But not to just give up on me so quickly and give me absolutely no support in my dying days. Dying alone is a pretty bad fear of mine. I KNOW I would never give up on him. I'd be at the hospital talking to him every day, playing his favorite music etc. I'd be too distraught and hurt to even THINK about looking for someone else. That would be the LAST THING ON MY MIND. I would cling onto FAMILY for support, not some MANWHORE. Ok, I said enough. The woman sounds like a real slutty character filming sex tapes and whatnot etc. Who knows how many other men she was dating/screwing during his coma days before she got pregnant by THIS ONE.

[whichwayisup]

Maybe it was the length of time they were together as a couple and married wasn't long enough. I think if they'd been married 10 or more years, then possibly she would not have looked elsewhere. I don't know..