This is not meant to offend & is more sociology than religion...

[HokeyReligions]

I am part of a discussion/debate on human patterns of belief and faith - mainly in the existence of God. I have taken the part on the side of theories for why people have faith or belief in something not prooved. The more we debated this the more firmly I believe that God does not exist. This is actually more of a sociology discussion than a religious one. I've tried to be respectful in past LS discussions of those who do have faith and I've stated that I could be wrong and there could be a God or Gods. But, the more I learn about human behavior, instinct, development, evolution, genetics, and the planet itself - the more I am convinced that man created God and fit the events and politics of the time to fit their belief.

 

Part of what we came up with is below and I would like your feedback. There have been lots of discussion on LS about this before and I've gone back and looked at them, but I'm starting a new discussion again to see if any of the new folks would like to comment directly and give their opionins on some of the human behavior as it pertains to a faith in a deity. This is not meant to offend anyone and I don't want to start a war - no one is going to convert anyone else to their way of thinking - its just a discussion:

 

How can otherwise intelligent people allow themselves to continue the behavior patterns from the brainwashing of their youth; or even worse – as adults allow themselves to be convinced of something that is not there? The Emperor’s New Clothes doesn’t come close to the mythology that has absorbed much of humanity for centuries.

 

Mankind is an infant – a fetus – a speck of life just beginning, yet valiant in its ignorance and superstition and arrogance. Few only have quickly thrust their hand through the ritual-curtain to – dare I say ‘enlightenment’ all the while casting furtive looks around to see who notices. More have stood watching in silence and debating the validity while holding to their talismans in dread fear of disbelief. Still others have passed through only to be shunned and cast aside upon their beckoning of others to follow.

 

As the centuries of mankind unfold – still as a species we are in infancy – the gathering of those who seek behind the curtain increases. Perhaps we are finally evolving.

 

All the thousands of rituals that are practiced – to what avail? Attribution of an outcome to a supposed deity does not change the outcome for those who attribute it to naturally occurring events. I would believe in the existence of a deity had I empirical proof that one existed. Absent that proof why would anyone believe in hearsay? We warn our children not to talk about others and we warn our employees or are warned by our employers not to engage in gossip – yet here we are in the midst of the most heavily supported and wide-spread gossip and story-telling of all recorded time.

 

To have faith in something that cannot be proved is such a waste of intellect and expression, unless engaged in research to locate solid, scientific, irrefutable proof - then the ‘faith’ is expanded to encompass the science of discovery and acceptance – including the acceptance of absolute proof that will disprove their own theoretical belief. It seems more reasonable knowing what we know of the human animal - that the research is guided and interpreted to support the theory of a God. The sacred following of rituals is nothing more than the dance of slavery – slavery to an idea, a concept, and a fear. Whole nations wage war against each other over these rituals and superstitious beliefs.

 

Is this some quirk or prize of nature that the human race has the capability to build invisible walls to protect itself from the world? Is religion and faith a sand-hole in which humanity places its collective head? Are we so afraid of our own existence that we cannot tolerate it without creating a psychic talisman for ourselves? Do we place a faith in an ‘other’ to avoid our own self-confidence?

[Outcast]

1. Faith comes from experience. If you attempted to describe 'love' to a Martian, he'd think you a nutjob because you have no tangible 'proof' it exists. Experience can neither be quantified nor qualified scientifically. It's reported anecdotally and we can maybe observe some brain patterns and some chemical changes but these don't in any way constitute 'proof' that the experiences exist.

 

2. That the 'proof' God exists hasn't been discovered yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It took a long time to prove many theories and some very important ones remain unproven. Science is based on faith of a sort in that scientists have to believe a 'proof' will be found.

 

3. We are told the universe likely has 9 dimensions. Until you can see into all 9, don't assume that there's no God in any of the other 6.

 

To have faith in something that cannot be proved is such a waste of intellect and expression

 

There is no quantifiable, observable 'proof' that love or hope or expectation or indeed any abstract concept exists. None. Zero. It's just that nobody questions that hope exists because many people recognize a common experience. Many people also recognize a common experience as spiritual experiences but somehow that isn't enough to satisfy those who have not.

[alphamale]

Religion and "God" have been created by humans to make themselves feel better and to explain things that are not explainable.

[Outcast]

Yes, dear. And the sun revolves around the earth.

[blind_otter]

How can otherwise intelligent people allow themselves to continue the behavior patterns from the brainwashing of their youth; or even worse – as adults allow themselves to be convinced of something that is not there? The Emperor’s New Clothes doesn’t come close to the mythology that has absorbed much of humanity for centuries.

 

And yet religious activities promote a sense of community, where for the most part we lack one in our everyday interactions. They provide a set of moral values that I can laud, personally.

 

Mankind is an infant – a fetus – a speck of life just beginning, yet valiant in its ignorance and superstition and arrogance.

 

And I would answer that it seems like the height of arrogance to assume that our very linear brains could comprehend the universe enough to concretely say, there is no God.

 

All the thousands of rituals that are practiced – to what avail?

 

you misunderstand the function of ritual.

"The function of ritual . . . is to give form to human life, not in the way of a mere surface arrangement, but in depth. In ancient times every social occasion was ritually structured and the sense of depth was rendered through the maintenance of a religious tone. Today, on the other hand, the religious tone is reserved for exceptional, very special 'sacred' occasions. And yet even in the patterns of our secular life, ritual survives. It can be recognized, for example, not only in the decorum of courts and regulations of military life, but also in the manners of people sitting down to table together.

 

"Myths are the mental supports of rites; rites, the physical enactments of myths. By absorbing the myths of his social group and participating in its rites, the youngster is structured to accord with his social as well as natural environment, and turned from an amorphous nature product, prematurely born, into a defined and competent member of some specific, efficiently functioning social order." [Joseph Campbell, Myths to Live By 43, 45 (New York: Bantam, 1973)]

 

 

To have faith in something that cannot be proved is such a waste of intellect and expression, unless engaged in research to locate solid, scientific, irrefutable proof - then the ‘faith’ is expanded to encompass the science of discovery and acceptance – including the acceptance of absolute proof that will disprove their own theoretical belief. It seems more reasonable knowing what we know of the human animal - that the research is guided and interpreted to support the theory of a God. The sacred following of rituals is nothing more than the dance of slavery – slavery to an idea, a concept, and a fear. Whole nations wage war against each other over these rituals and superstitious beliefs.

 

No. nations wage war, using rituals and superstitious beliefs as an EXCUSE. But any superficial examination of the external components surround the relationship between those waring nations reveals socio-policial reasons that are less succinct, and more complex to explain. It's easier to use a short cut, but make no mistake. They would war for other reasons if we went the way of Marx and declared religious to be the opiate of the masses.

 

I think it's arrogant and self centered to say that one intellectual discipline deserves examination, whereas others (according to whoever gets to decide what is "relevent") are better to examine. In my opinion there have been great, great things done, even in modern times, that are attributable direction to the faith of the individual. Mother Theresa's work, for example (to drag her out again). Ghandi. Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

Do we place a faith in an ‘other’ to avoid our own self-confidence?

 

For me? no. I have felt the hand of God in my life. I have felt the touch of divinity within myself. You know how? I felt it through the hand of humans. The impulse to give. The faith in something greater than ourselves, it seems to me like having faith only in yourself is kind of myopic. Life continues, endlessly, before and after "I" die.

 

And buddhism taught me much as well. "You" do not exist. Google "anatman" or "anatta". "I" do not exist. How could I have confidence in something as impermanent as a human being? The "self" is a collection of aggregates. Social norms, labels, family mythologies. Nothing concrete. Just floating islands of concepts in a sea of impermanence.

 

I have no idea what God is, what God thinks, or where God lives. But I feel God, in every single person. And yet I manage to keep on with my intellectual persuits quite handily. You could look up a lists of famous diests, who were also historically relevent thinkers....you would be surprised.

 

Benjamin Franklin

Thomas Jefferson

Cicero

Aristotle

Einstein

Goethe

Kant

Voltaire

John Locke

French revolutionary Maxemilian Robespierre

 

the list goes on and on. It seems to me that their belief in a diety didn't hamper their intellectual persuits, and worked to further the general body of knowledge available to all humankind.

[Outcast]

You'll find an awful lot of theoretical physicists pretty convinced there is a Divine. And nobody would accuse them of being unintelligent.

 

it seems like the height of arrogance to assume that our very linear brains could comprehend the universe enough to concretely say, there is no God.

 

It requires intellect to comprehend the vastness of that which human intellect has yet to comprehend.

[amaysngrace]

 

Is this some quirk or prize of nature that the human race has the capability to build invisible walls to protect itself from the world? Is religion and faith a sand-hole in which humanity places its collective head? Are we so afraid of our own existence that we cannot tolerate it without creating a psychic talisman for ourselves? Do we place a faith in an ‘other’ to avoid our own self-confidence?

 

 

Well, goodness, Hokey. Invisible walls, you say. To protect me from the world. Actually, my walls are down. I feel united in humanity, a human who possesses the same characteristics with others throughout the world. I don't feel I need to be shielded from the world, in fact I rather like that I have a connection to the Earth and others who walk on it.

 

I am not afraid of my own exsistence. I love my life. I'm glad to be who I am and would not be the same person I am today had I not had my faith. I might doubt, search, seek and try to make sense out of something that seems illogical. Thankfully, I don't have these worries. That may seem unintelligent to you but I truly believe there is a Creator. I think our world, the sun, the elements, plant and life form, and human race were created.

 

How do you see it?

[Curmudgeon]

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. -- Voltaire

 

While all your arguments are well and good they do not take into account one main ingredient and that is faith. Faith is neither right nor wrong. It simply is.

 

I have seen first-hand too many works of God to not believe in a force far greater than ourselves that defies definition oir explanation. Therefore, I simply bvelieve and that cannot be argued.

[HokeyReligions]

Religion and "God" have been created by humans to make themselves feel better and to explain things that are not explainable.

 

But why? How?

 

Was God created by some kind of instinct in the human species? Did God come from the development of the human brain as human's evolved beyond basic survival patterns? Is it the same kind of instinctual development that developed in other life forms like Otter's who use tools? Did humans develop God and religion to meet emotional evolution?

 

from BO: And yet religious activities promote a sense of community, where for the most part we lack one in our everyday interactions. They provide a set of moral values that I can laud, personally.

 

Wolf packs howl to communicate and to establish their community and to aid their everyday interactions. Rabbits thump in warning. Many animals have involved social structures and they communicate in ways we do not understand.

 

As human societies formed and technology advanced the species created behaviors designed to protect its species. Societies or tribes of people have the same, or similar, moral values as do Christians or other religious groups. Aren't these 'moral codes' part of human nature and not of God?

 

And I would answer that it seems like the height of arrogance to assume that our very linear brains could comprehend the universe enough to concretely say, there is no God.

Both are then saying the same thing: It's ignorant and arrogant to assume any belief - for or against a God. The human brain is proessing the same information in support of different concepts or ideals.

 

I don't misunderstand rituals - they are a form of communication and teaching and are not the property of religious belief alone. Is ritualist behavior just another animal instinct? Many animals perform rituals for many reasons - one being mating. Many humans perform rituals they don't understand and can't explain why. Some simply become habit and others are given an interpretation of reason. Most are valid forms of communication. The point is - why have these rituals developed? Are they as much a part of the human species - uncontrolled but necessary - like a heartbeat or kidney function?

 

 

They would war for other reasons

Exactly. The reasons don't matter and are not important to this discussion. Is this simply another pattern of behavior ingrained in the human animal? It is in other animals too - many species 'war' against themselves to claim territory. The 'age of reason' or the 'evolution of reason' may just be a way humans have developed to understand our own species.

 

I am not trying to examine only one 'intellectual discipline' I chose one aspect of human behavior with a long history to discuss. Mankind as a whole had accomplished many great things, some good some not - but great nonetheless. Those things are not reduced because some do not attribute them to divine intervention. Because one group interprets these things as the hand of God guiding them and another interprets these things as soley human - perhaps using a mythical "God" as a crutch does not change the outcome of these achievements.

 

I am not trying to say anyone dumb because they believe in something that I see as a myth or a creation of man. I am not surprised by the beliefs of those who are considered great thinkers or inventors, etc. I've sudied some on it. But I, and many, believe that they were capable of those same achievements even had they not believed in a God, but perhaps 'they' didn't believe it of themselves. So then, is this belief in a power greater then themselves simply a way for them to do accomplish what they did? Their own talisman, or muse, or whatever you want to call it.

[amaysngrace]

Barbra Walters did a show on Heaven a while back. It was interesting. Scientific studies showed that people who believe are able to tap into a part of their brain that non-believers cannot.

 

Also, as for the light upon departure. I think they said it had something to do with the oxygen to the brain being cut off. Apparently, everyone sees the light.

 

Maybe, then, this whole philosophy of God came about so that humans can have a connection with one another. To find the common ground and look at ourselves as good, rather than bad. To focus on our similarities, rather than our differences. Only problem is religion makes each group different, if you believe the hype.

 

Maybe you have a very valid point from your OP, Hokey. Holy Crap...now you got me thinking. And as a rule, I try to avoid thinking.

[HokeyReligions]

While all your arguments are well and good they do not take into account one main ingredient and that is faith. Faith is neither right nor wrong. It simply is.

 

I have seen first-hand too many works of God to not believe in a force far greater than ourselves that defies definition oir explanation. Therefore, I simply bvelieve and that cannot be argued.

 

 

I agree that Faith is not wright or wrong. Your faith that what you have seen and experienced emanates from a higher being is not right or wrong and is personal to you.

 

How it pertains to the discussions I've been having is questioning whether faith is just a label that humans - at our current state of development - can comprehend and build from. Is faith an instinctual part of the development of the human species. Were it called something else like 'human development chemical reaction map number A8774' would it still be the same? A rose by any other name...

 

That brings up another part of my discussion. Some people say things like "God is IN you" and perhaps they are right. The greatness, the miracles, the abilities may reside in each of us on some physical leval. Genetics perhaps is one path leading to the mapping and understanding of this and perhaps to the utilization of God-like powers that are part of the human species. Perhaps humanity will one day find that we are ourselves the Gods we have worshipped.

[blind_otter]

If my numerous experiences with perception altering hallucinogenics taught me anything (they did, actually) -- they taught me that there is no ultimate truth. We each perceive reality for ourself, put importance on different things.

 

There is no answer to the question you posed. If there is a God, human beings would never be able to comprehend that God. Not the thoughts, nor the actions, nor even what the basic existence of such a being would be like. By definition, God would be undefineable through examination by the scientific process. Of course, the scientific process is a human creation.

 

So I never really understood the point of this question. To me, it seems the answer is really really easy. Some people believe in God. Others don't. And never the twain shall meet.

 

It's like getting sober. You can't get sober just because someone else tells you how great it is. You discover it for yourself.

 

There is a real danger, I think, in overanalyzing everything. You miss out on the poetic beauty if you concentrate only on the chemical makeup.

 

And my knowledge of sociology and psychology has made me even more aware of the existence of God. For examply, you mention that various species of animals engage in ritualistic behavior. I really wouldn't go that far, and label their behavior as such.

 

The thing that differentiates primates is their complex social groups and the interrelation involved therein. No other animal shares this trait. YES, other animals live in social groups, but IMO those aren't comparable to the complexities of primate groups. And evolution supports this -- we have abnormally large prefrontal cortexes in order to govern those complex interactions. The cognitive process are comparable, but surely not the same.

 

But I, and many, believe that they were capable of those same achievements even had they not believed in a God, but perhaps 'they' didn't believe it of themselves. So then, is this belief in a power greater then themselves simply a way for them to do accomplish what they did? Their own talisman, or muse, or whatever you want to call it.

 

Oh, hokey come on. Believing that they could have achieved this without their collective pasts and belief systems is PURE conjecture. You can never know this. So the assertion is a moot point. They did believe, and that belife was part and parcel of their preexisting social and intellectual conditioning which led to their achievement. Lacking those factors, they would not have been the same people.

 

We are all of us the sum of our experiences.

 

I find it hard to understand how anyone can NOT believe there is a God.

[seven]

Posted by blind_otter:

I find it hard to understand how anyone can NOT believe there is a God.

 

Sometimes when people suffer a loss, illness or difficulty, they can’t believe God would allow such pain and heartache. As if it were God’s plan to inflict hurt. Or that God favors or blesses others more. Grief and hardship can cloud perception and test one's belief or cause them to stop believing.

 

I’ve been way pissed at God before and told him so too!! lol. I haven’t, however, not believed in his existence. Like Blind Otter said earlier, I have felt his presence in my own life and witnessed it in others. The day my mom died, God was palpable. During my daughter’s birth when I thought something was going wrong with me (but wasn’t), I realized it was me and God and I prayed my way through the birth. Joyful moments too. Gut feelings I’ve had guiding me, having people show up in my life when I needed it or to learn something from, feeling love and just feeling … all these things are God to me.

 

Believe me, I can over think with the best of em, but what I’ve felt is real and it grows and gets tested like any other relationship. I've also found that the more open I am to God, the more present he seems. I only hope my children “feel” God during their lives.

[superconductor]

Having gone through stages of atheism, agnosticism, spirituality and Christianity, I've come to the conclusion that I'm a reverse agnostic; that is, God isn't really sure if I exist.

 

Sounds light-hearted, I know, but hear me out:

 

Of all the times that I've prayed for strength, for help, for deliverance or to find a good parking spot, I can honestly say that I've never, ever had those prayers answered.

 

Never.

 

Not once.

 

So, either God doesn't exist, or is unconcerned with human affairs, or is simply ignorning me. I don't know. And I'm not sure which answer would be preferable.

[JamesM]

To say God doesn't answer prayer is to say that the only answer is yes or is at least a favorable one. Logic says that this cannot be the case. Many prayers are answered, but either the answer is No or Wait, or the answer is never noticed or is ignored.

 

If God is in us or we are God, then from a philosophical POV, technically there is no God.

 

When I look around the world and see all that is going on, one can say "How can God allow this?" Or one can say,"Why did man screw it up so bad?" For most theologians, the answer is easy...sin.

 

For me, the hardest question to have answered is that if there is no God, how did this world begin? And why is this world here?

 

If we began because some cosmic explosion produced life from a solution of non-living chemicals, why cannot this be reporduced? And if this could be reproduced, how did a single celled organism develop into a complex human able to talk about this question? Were we started here by the Reptilian race as Sitchin and Icke say? Did we evolve and since to us mere mortals it seems complex, we "created" God? Too many questions that cannot be answered with the presence of some Divine Presence. Many of the alternatives such as evolution or alien invaders require actually more faith than it does just to believe that there is a Greater Being who began the human race for a purpose and will end the human race for another purpose.

[Curmudgeon]

In many of those questions substiute the word "love" for the word "faith" and see what your answers are and whether or not they change.

 

What is love after all but a deep and abiding faith in the other person and their intentions towards us.

[Outcast]

In many of those questions substiute the word "love" for the word "faith" and see what your answers are and whether or not they change.

 

I keep saying that, but it inevitably passes unnoticed.

 

Hokey, prove love exists. Prove truth exists. Prove hope exists.

[konfused]

Faith means nothing unless you provide parameters. The phrase I have faith or I have faith in God sounds righteous and all but really means diddly squat unless your faith can be equivocally linked to distinct behaviors or you provide a precise definition of god.

 

I think that once human brains grew complex enough, we came to appreciate the concept of forethought. Faith is the belief that you will not be dead in the next moment.

[amaysngrace]

Faith is the belief that you will not be dead in the next moment.

 

See, to me faith is not believing that you won't die in the next moment.

 

Faith to me is believing that when you do die, it'll be okay.

[HokeyReligions]

Barbra Walters did a show on Heaven a while back. It was interesting. Scientific studies showed that people who believe are able to tap into a part of their brain that non-believers cannot.

 

 

That's what I'm thinking - the ability to believe taps into a part of the physical brain that non-believers are unable to tap into. Kind of like a physical training for the brain.

 

 

Maybe, then, this whole philosophy of God came about so that humans can have a connection with one another. To find the common ground and look at ourselves as good, rather than bad. To focus on our similarities, rather than our differences. Only problem is religion makes each group different, if you believe the hype.

 

This is good - I like the idea. Perhaps other species do this to a certain extent also, but unlike humans they have no understanding of it at all - they can't put a name to it or communicate it and because humans can it brings us as a species closer even though we have created so many differing forms of organized religion - it still ties back to some primordial belief mechanism within us. I think of elephant graveyards - they know somehow when and where to go to die. Do they have an instinct for God? Does God guide animals in a way that humans don't understand an can't comprehend?

 

Believing that they could have achieved this without their collective pasts and belief systems is PURE conjecture.

That's not what I meant. I said capable of achieving the same things without faith. The capability is there - it's their faith (perhaps tapping into that part of the brain that those who don't have faith can tap) is what completed the achievement. But human capabilities are the same. Perhaps their belief in their Gods is the motivation. Perhaps those who do not believe in God tap into other parts of their brain - or maybe the same part, but in a different way.

 

I'm not trying to prove the existence of God or the non-existence of God or of any emotion that a human or animal can feel or experiene. That's not the point of the discussion. If one believes God exists that should be good enough for that one. The same if one does not believe God exists.

 

Prayer is one of the behavior patterns associated with a belief in God. It is a personal ritual/behavior and the method of prayer and how in interprets answers (or non-answers) is personal also. To me I would rather gather the strength to face something or accomplish something myself. Like the Little Train who Could - it kept saying "I think I can, I think I can" and it did. It ties back to what I was saying about the capability to achieve or accept being within everyone - whether they attribute that 'strength' to an outside deity or to themselves.

 

People who hold to their faith when experiening a traumatic event (loss of a loved one for example) will get through that experiene and perhaps thank God for the strength to endure it. But those without faith get through those experiences too - they don't just cease to exist or exist forever in that same ocean of pain and grief. They just wake up and face each day and at some point realize that it's been a year or two and they are still here and still functioning.

 

As for how the world began that doesn't matter to me - it doesn't mean anything to me. The world IS. That is all that matters. Knowing how it began is a pursuit for those who are trying to prove something. I'm not - I'm just discussing the life that exists on the planet and the societies that have existed and changed and evolved and their similarities and differences geographically and historically.

 

Perhaps, millions of years ago, there were different species of humans. As some have said in threads on race - they will be glad to see all races mingled together and the planet will be filled with people of the same color and shape and there will be no black, white, yellow, or brown. Perhaps that has been happening over the millenia to a point where all human species are now one species and the evolution will continue. Or perhaps its the reverse - there was once only one race and over the millenia as the planet has changed so have humans changes to fit the part of the planet they live in and the races became divided through limited pairing until there was sufficient numbers to travel and mix again. That kind of makes sense if you consider the different types of illness and and strengths that are associated with people from different races. Why some drugs will work on asian people, but not on people of mediterranian decent. Why sickle cell is predominate in black people but not in white people. There are differences beyond skin color that determine race and perhaps the races developed that way because of geography. As mankind advanced technologically we ventured out and races began to mix.

[JamesM]

You see, not answering HOW the world began lets you draw up as many theories as your mind can imagine. However, if one determines how the world began...with a Creator or without One...the answer to this question will determine who we are, why we are here, and where we are going.

 

For if there is a God, then we must answer to that God. If there is no God, then all we have is this miserable existence and nothing more.

 

To simply live for the now and "be convinced that God doesn't exist" ignores all reality.

[amaysngrace]

Perhaps that has been happening over the millenia to a point where all human species are now one species and the evolution will continue.

 

 

What if evolution continues in the same way it's progressed, and the races are to become one race? Through DNA cloning we can eliminate disease. With much focus on sexual identity, perhaps we are headed for becoming asexuals with reproduction abilities. This race would be good for what? Life in space.

 

Humans are gaining knowledge of life in space. We've explored it and are constantly learning more and more. What if humans progress into no longer needing what we require down here on earth? Then the end of the earth through mass destruction or other means wouldn't be so devastating. Humans would have options other than life on earth, and it may prove to be better suited at meeting the needs of the race at the time.

 

Maybe there will come a time when our evolved human race living in outer space will think of the humans who walked the earth the same way we view dinosaurs: Simplistically composed and obsolete.

[Outcast]

See? People always ignore the 'prove love exists' challenge because it proves that abstract concepts can't be proven empirically. Thus shooting the 'proof' discussion all to blazes

[amaysngrace]

See? People always ignore the 'prove love exists' challenge because it proves that abstract concepts can't be proven empirically. Thus shooting the 'proof' discussion all to blazes

 

Mothers caring for their young proves love exists.

 

The sky is blue is proof of truth.

 

Making plans for next week is a show of hope.

[Outcast]

Mothers caring for their young proves love exists.

 

Right. Then people caring for others because JC asked them to 'proves' God exists, no?

 

You, however, are already a believer. I'm challenging the non-believers who keep demanding empirical proof (someone's behaviour proves nothing, btw) to provide empirical proof that abstract concepts exist.