This is not meant to offend & is more sociology than religion...

[EnigmaXOXO]

I feel like the numpty kid on the cerebral playground … but here goes my very "right-brained" explanation of why I believe in the concept of God and/or some kind of spiritual Creator.

 

That act of belief is what sets us apart from other species.

 

How about compassion?

 

Only the human animal is capable of feeling empathy and/or sympathy towards another. So keenly aware of our own existence, that we somehow extend that awareness to everything around us. Even to other species not of our own kind. Our propensity to appreciate, protect and to commit selfless acts of generosity goes far beyond the basic self-survival instincts exhibited in all other life forms.

 

How about: The mini Creator in all of us?:

 

What other animal is so inspired and awed by the simple beauty of its surroundings that it not only pauses to appreciate … but is driven to create (or recreate) its humble idea of perfection? Not out of necessity or need … but for the sheer joy and sense of accomplishment it brings him/her. The artist, the musician, the poet … even the engineer. What other animal feels so compelled to leave some small imprint of itself behind as testimony of its existence? To imitate creation. To express profound emotion. To create purpose and meaning for itself … as well as everything around him?

 

And now, we humans are even going about the business of trying to understand and recreate 'LIFE' itself. Through cross breeding, we've already managed to produce entirely new species of animals and plant life.

 

On the flip side of our natures, what other life form is capable of such purposeful and deliberate destruction as the human animal?

 

Is our inherent compulsion to both create and destroy the legacy of some Creator who made us in its spiritual image (given us a soul) … or is it humans who have attribute their own characteristics to some imagined deity as a way of explaining why we are so vastly different from all other living things around us?

 

For me, it's hard to conceive that those things about us that go beyond basic consciousness and instinct are simply the byproducts of our highly developed intellect or social conditioning. After all, we certainly don't have the largest brains on the planet. The sperm whale is a social animal with a brain six times larger than the average human … yet you won't see him painting a Monet or stepping in to save you from getting eaten by that shark!

 

And experience has shown us that intellect alone (for whatever reason) fails to satisfy human beings on that deeper level. Many begin to feel spiritually bankrupt in spite of it and are continually driven to fill that void by asking questions and seeking answers that always fall short of filling up that emptiness. On the flip side, why does something as simple as a small act of selfless kindness (whether given or received) fill us up and make us feel so damn good?

 

This is why I'm still so compelled to believe in the idea of a human "soul." And if I believe in the concept of the spirit and/or soul … than it is only a short step away from accepting the possibility that it was given to us for some purpose other than insuring the survival of the fittest. Otherwise, we would have long since evolved past our emotionally passionate and compassionate natures because it would not benefit the individual at all.

[quankanne]

thank heavens not all of us go through a life of mistrust, Alpha! Besides, not all believers have a blind faith, but go through life questioning the same as non-believers do. The only difference is what we end up with.

 

nicely put, enigma: It's all about soul, and that connectedness even when we are not able to so easily identify it.

[a4a]

 

How about compassion?

 

Only the human animal is capable of feeling empathy and/or sympathy towards another. So keenly aware of our own existence, that we somehow extend that awareness to everything around us. Even to other species not of our own kind. Our propensity to appreciate, protect and to commit selfless acts of generosity goes far beyond the basic self-survival instincts exhibited in all other life forms.

 

.

 

 

I could present many documented cases of other species appearing to help members of their own species or even members of a different species.

 

Man is one of the few species that will go out of his way to harm members of his own species or members of other species just for the "thrill" of doing so.

 

I am not smart enough to know the origin of life, but I am smart enough not to think that I have the right to dictate to others how they should live or conduct themselves with whatever personal theory about the origin of life that I may hold.

 

We once believed a man with a chariot carried the sun around the earth.... we once believed virgin sacrafices would help us attain our goals.

 

At this point I have erected a temple made of Wheaties to pray inside for gas prices to lower. ( It is illegal to sacrafice virgins, and they are scarce......so had to come up with something )

 

 

Love can be very self serving indeed. In most cases it is. Even the love for a child from a parent..... survival of the species.

 

Hope could also be a survival strategy..... otherwise why wouldn't all the zebras just sit still instead of running from the hungry lions?

 

They "hope" to get the hell away.

[JamesM]

I am not smart enough to know how the world began either, but I am smart enough to know that how one believes/thinks it began WILL have a huge impact on how they will live or conduct themselves.

[quankanne]

we once believed virgin sacrafices would help us attain our goals.

 

funny ... I thought horny guys still felt that way?

[alphamale]

thank heavens not all of us go through a life of mistrust, Alpha! Besides, not all believers have a blind faith, but go through life questioning the same as non-believers do.

Religion is mainly for weak, under-educated, emotional cripples who don't have the capacity to figure things out for themselves.

[a4a]

I am not smart enough to know how the world began either, but I am smart enough to know that how one believes/thinks it began WILL have a huge impact on how they will live or conduct themselves.

 

Which is an interesting point.... one does not always conduct themselves as they state they believe they should because of their beliefs in that god/goddess/deity.

 

My I also add: WILL have a huge impact on how they will live or conduct themselves and force others to live and conduct themselves.

 

I do not believe in a god so to speak. And wouldn't it be a bitch for those that believe in the norm to find out after death, that the whole time while being alive you were really supposed to be worshipping a cockroach?

[a4a]

We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence.

 

-Bertrand Russell

[blind_otter]

We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence.

 

-Bertrand Russell

 

I guess so, but why is emotion less valid than evidence? Especially when you are talking about something as highly personal as religious faith.

 

Sure, it might not make sense to people to pray to God if you have a dying loved one, but it's a personal thing. What makes sense to other people doesn't really matter when it comes to dealing with your own emotions. I can't cope in some pre-ordained manner that is considered acceptible by external parties. I can only cope in my own way.

 

I have seen people lose faith over the loss of a loved one. I certainly lost a large measure of faith when I miscarried 2 years ago in the second trimester and delivered the baby by myself in the bathroom of an emergency room waiting room. But I realized that it wasn't so much that I lost faith as I didn't really understand what faith was, or how to believe in God.

[a4a]

I guess so, but why is emotion less valid than evidence? Especially when you are talking about something as highly personal as religious faith.

 

.

for you it is not......

 

but I see the faith in a god/deity bring harm to others/selves, not just as a personal coping tool in many instances.

 

****************

 

I truly believe the greatest test of faith can be found in attempting to have faith in your fellow humans. That is much harder than having faith in a god. Attain that sort of faith and you become enlightened.

[blind_otter]

for you it is not......

 

but I see the faith in a god/deity bring harm to others/selves, not just as a personal coping tool in many instances.

 

I would answer that it's not the faith, but the actions of the human beings proclaiming that faith. Just like nations war, using religion as an excuse -- but that is hardly the reason for their aggressive actions. Because there are those who share the faith with no violent impulses. It is the individual, not the faith, that is to blame.

 

I truly believe the greatest test of faith can be found in attempting to have faith in your fellow humans. That is much harder than having faith in a god. Attain that sort of faith and you become enlightened.

 

I tend to believe that God is within everyone. And Everyone is within God. So having faith in God, for me, is having faith in humans.

[JamesM]

Interesting today I had Jehovahs Witness lady come to my door. She wanted to tell me about obviously her belief. Her belief and how she believes the world began has made her who she is. Rather than get into a discussion with her, I told her that she and I disagreed, but thank you anyhow. She did attempt with a statemnt to draw me into making a comment about how I believed but I didn't. She did not force her beliefs on me...I respect that. But yes, she felt that she should at least explain them to me.

 

a4a, I think that many many of those with different beliefs than yours can easily tell you what they believe without forcing it upon you. And you mention when you die....and what if you do find that there is a hell and a heaven and a God whom you did not believe in? Will you then say I am so thankful that no one tried to "force" their beliefs on me? Or will you say...I wish someone had explained to me that there was a way for me to have experienced the faith and love of an Almighty God? To often beliefs are made so personal that many people do not investiagte what evidence there is to support them. Only when we are forced to examine why we believe what we believe can we better decide how to believe or Whom to believe...as Hokey has/is trying to do.

 

That was not preaching... that was a question. And yes, you can easily say to me that If I died and found something different than I believed wouldn't I have wanted to know about it? But here the question is not how you believe, but Whom do you believe in? Or rather is there Someone whom which we can believe in?

 

Alphamale, hmmm, only uneducated weak minded people believe in a God....does the evidence of the pople of history support your claim? Or have many many people who are incredibly well educated believed in a Supreme Being who created the world, etc.? Twice now you have made derogatory statements witout suporting facts or evidence. You are welcome to your beliefs, but please give me some supporting evidences so that I may understand where you are coming from. Yes, I am educated in a Bachelors Degree Business and Science. I have a great interest in readin books that explain why people believe what they believe in. I enjoy reading about athiests, creationists, evolutionists, history as it explains why we are here. Mentally and emotionally...I am never proud to say that I am of sound mind, but I can say that I am doing all that I can to continually educate myself as to what this world and everyone who has been in it is about,

 

BTW, this is an excellent discussion. Hopefully, it will at least challenge a few people to examine their beliefs.

[a4a]

a4a, I think that many many of those with different beliefs than yours can easily tell you what they believe without forcing it upon you. And you mention when you die....and what if you do find that there is a hell and a heaven and a God whom you did not believe in? Will you then say I am so thankful that no one tried to "force" their beliefs on me? Or will you say...I wish someone had explained to me that there was a way for me to have experienced the faith and love of an Almighty God? To often beliefs are made so personal that many people do not investiagte what evidence there is to support them. Only when we are forced to examine why we believe what we believe can we better decide how to believe or Whom to believe...as Hokey has/is trying to do.

 

.

 

James if indeed a question posed to me ...... then I would answer it this way.

Believing in a god does not serve me. I do not need to believe to be content. I do not fear hell nor pine to go to heaven or fear coming back in another life as a maggot.

Now if there is your god ( I presume you are of the christian sort) and I have indeed lived my life in a decent way and your god were to reject me simply because of ignorance in not believing that he exists so be it. Just as the Almighty Cockroach god may be angry with my disbelief.

 

I have pondered this quite a bit over many years. Of course being exposed to a variety of religions but not practicing any. The only answer I can come up with is...... I don't know which god is the correct one or even if there is one. I tend to believe there is no individual supreme being.

 

Is it a selfish act to believe in a god..... fear, hope of salvation.......... If I believe in you I am going to be ok? I guess if there was a god I would expect the god to have unconditional "love" and not reject me if I believed in it or not........ but it does not apply in my case because I just don't by the current god theories available in this day and age. Maybe a better story will pop up in the next thousand years that I will buy into?

[quankanne]

Religion is mainly for weak, under-educated, emotional cripples who don't have the capacity to figure things out for themselves.

 

I thought that "weak emotional cripples" were incapable of reaching out to anyone, using their "intelligence" to protect themselves from those things they're afraid to explore ...

 

just because you don't have a reason to put faith in anything doesn't mean you ought to shoot down those who do. Live and let live, Alpha; live and let live …

 

I have pondered this quite a bit over many years. Of course being exposed to a variety of religions but not practicing any. The only answer I can come up with is...... I don't know which god is the correct one or even if there is one. I tend to believe there is no individual supreme being.

 

which gives rise to an interesting thought: How many people refuse to place their believe in a given concept of God for fear that they've chosen the "wrong" one? I've been told by other Christians that my choice of religious practice was wrong because it didn't match what they perceived as right!

[alphamale]

just because you don't have a reason to put faith in anything doesn't mean you ought to shoot down those who do. Live and let live, Alpha; live and let live …

I have faith in many things QUANK...but I have little faith in organized religion. Throughout history it has caused more problems than it has solved. Religion is just another barrier that pushes groups apart, along with race, skin colour, socio-economic divisions, nations, blah blah blah blah blah.

 

Religion may do some good for the individual but its very bad for the human race as a whole.

 

Sorry but thats my take on the subject.

[a4a]

I have faith in many things QUANK...but I have little faith in organized religion. Throughout history it has caused more problems than it has solved. Religion is just another barrier that pushes groups apart, along with race, skin colour, socio-economic divisions, nations, blah blah blah blah blah.

 

Religion may do some good for the individual but its very bad for the human race as a whole.

 

Sorry but thats my take on the subject.

 

I agree Alpha.

 

But I think we are talking about individual beliefs here.

 

If I believed in Satan I would say it was the devil that organized religion

[quankanne]

nope, it was mankind who bungled things up with his need for organization, a4!

 

Religion may do some good for the individual but its very bad for the human race as a whole.

 

point clarified, and quank edified. Thanks.

[EnigmaXOXO]

Religion may do some good for the individual but its very bad for the human race as a whole.

 

But are you able to separate faith from religion?

 

If so, what do you have "faith" in Alpha? I know you have the propensity for compassion in spite of your efforts to convince us otherwise (you wouldn't be spending so much time on this forum if you didn't. )

 

So what do you personally attribute that to? Your high moral standards (ha ha) … or the fact that just maybe underneath it all you actually have a good soul?

 

Where does it come from?

[amaysngrace]

Religion may do some good for the individual but its very bad for the human race as a whole.

 

Sorry but thats my take on the subject.

 

Religion is a way to get to know God. It is some individuals first exposure to God, and for that it is a good thing.

 

My children have been exposed to organized religion since birth. It is a way for them to know how important God is to mankind. It is merely an introduction, but they are free to explore their own beliefs and have their own view on God at any given time.

 

I am very thankful to God for my life and the people in it. I hope to pass down faith to my children so they have the connection to the Higher Power as well.

 

As I child there wasn't a lot I understood about my religion. I truly thought God was a guy who lived in the sky. I knew my religion well enough by the time I was 20 to know it didn't always make sense. I became friends with a guy at that time who was Jewish. We talked quite a bit at the time about our religions. He worshiped weekly as I did. Instead of seeing how we were both different, we saw the similarities we shared. I don't know of many 20 year olds who would converse about their religion, but seeing that we could, I think he and I both had pretty good parents.

 

Religion is a gift that parents give to their children. It's a sacrifice made on a regular basis to get to worship. But the benefits children receive from getting to know God is truly worth it.

[a4a]

Religion is a gift that parents give to their children. It's a sacrifice made on a regular basis to get to worship. But the benefits children receive from getting to know God is truly worth it.

 

What do you mean by the underlined portion of the above text?

 

What are the benefits you think your children are getting?

[amaysngrace]

What do you mean by the underlined portion of the above text?

 

What are the benefits you think your children are getting?

 

 

I mean, I am not all that religious. I have already gotten all that I can out of my religion as far as my relationship with God. My religion has been good for me in that way as I have the basic tools I needed. So going to mass on a weekly basis serves me no real purpose anymore.

 

I go because it's the right thing to do for my children.

 

I hope my children grow in the same way I've grown, with faith in God. I think it's nice to notice God's goodness. To be appreciative for the good things we're given. To notice the beauty of nature and be able to thank Someone for our surroundings. And also too, when things get bleak and look unpromising, it's nice to know that it's going to be okay.

 

I'd like to know, a4a, how do you handle crisis? Do you find yourself overly stressed by events that others seem to handle relatively calmly? Answer honestly, please.

[a4a]

To be appreciative for the good things we're given. To notice the beauty of nature and be able to thank Someone for our surroundings. And also too, when things get bleak and look unpromising, it's nice to know that it's going to be okay.

 

I'd like to know, a4a, how do you handle crisis? Do you find yourself overly stressed by events that others seem to handle relatively calmly? Answer honestly, please.

 

 

As for the above I can appreciate, notice, and enjoy my life without a god or thanking a god. However I will thank those that show me kindness or that are considerate of others.

 

As for handling a crisis I look for different ways to solve the crisis and take the most logical path with the best calculated outcome to solve the problem. Perhaps that is why I hold a position on a rescue team.... I am quite calm in a crisis. (but with a sense of urgency) I deal with death daily..... in a way I guess I play the role of a god daily.

 

I do not look to an entity to solve my problems or be responsible for my life or future. Nor do I blame an entity for my problems or past pains.

 

My favorite saying is "nobody had their head fall off, so it's all good"

[HokeyReligions]

All you're talking about is a name that people agree upon to give to a concept. In fact, that which I see and call 'blue' may look like that which you see and call 'yellow'. And none of us will ever know.

 

 

That's what I'm trying to get at when saying God is a name people give to a concept. Heaven, Faith, etc. are the same. We label in order to communicate.

[HokeyReligions]

And since I didn't get involved with this philosophical discussion, I missed some engaging talk.

 

Hokey, unfortunately/fortunately it DOES matter where we came from. We can talk about if we are actually existing. We can talk as if God exists or doesn't. We can talk about evolving into God. We cam compare God to gravity and love. We can wonder whether whatever we want. Faith and belief are great but we need to find evidences and proofs for a basis for that faith. For if there is not proof, then you can believe that there is no God and I can believe there is. Both of us cannot be right, because our beliefs are diametrically opposed one to the other.

 

But...here is the reason that I believe it is a FACT that where we came from answers most of these questions or at least gives direction to where to search for the answers.

 

Again, if we evolved from some miraculous combination of just the right chemicals coming together and forming life which occurred billions of years after some random Big Bang in the sky to bring about this Universe with no help from any Supreme Being, then all of this talk about there being a God is useless. Then of course, there isn't. We can pretend we are a god or that we will evolve into gods or even that we will come again in another life to become a god. But the fact remains, in this scenario, we came into being as a result of a biological process that happened as a result of some random coupling of two human beings that randomly brought us to this Board at this time in history. When we have died we will no longer exist. Then as alphamale said, God and love will not exist once man has disappeared.

 

And the opposite is true. If we were created as a part of a Plan brought about by a Supreme Being who has a Plan for this world and all of Mankind, then this whole discussion is also a moot point, because then the FACT is that God created the Heavens and the Earth and all that is within it. And then, we should be looking in this direction as to where we will be going and why we are here.

 

There may be some variations of both thoughts above, but either Someone reigns over all of Creation or there is nothing but our life as we live it now.

 

In one case, the fact is that there is no God, and the other case the fact is that there has to be a God. Can either case be proven? That is the question. Or rather, can the proof and evidences be looked at objectively to reveal an answer?

 

 

I see more than two answers to a question-I don't think that it has to be one or the other. That seems vary narrow thinking to me. I don't see it as one being right and the other wrong. I don't think that is necessary.

 

When I was a child I used to believe that when we die all of our questions would be answered. Who really shot Kennedy? What IS the cure for the common cold? Where do dinosaurs fit into religious history? Why can't roaches be killed? Did Mrs. O'Leary's cow REALLY start that fire? That kind of thing. As I grew up and questioned and learned I was taught that those questions, indeed ANY questions we have as humans - from the profound to the silly - will not be answered because in Heaven the questions don't matter. The questions belong to the earthly life not to a spiritual 'after life.'

[HokeyReligions]

This kind of debate is one of the reasons I was attracted to buddhism. After 5 pages of posts, no one is any the wiser whether god exists or not. I didnt read the 5 pages, and dont need to. The same arguments are always brought up, and people will continue to debate this pointless issue. Pointless because intellect will never find god.

 

The thread did not start out or was intended to debate the existene of God or to convince anyone of anything. It is a discussion on human behaviors and beliefs and was narrowed to a point of reference - that being God. The issue IS the debate. I doubt that anyone thinks that God can be proved on an internet forum! The discussion got a little off-kilter in the last page or so.

 

That you either believe or are exploring a belief in supreme being or guiding force or religious icon is no different than the physiology of others who are exploring or actively believe in anything else.