This is not meant to offend & is more sociology than religion...

[amaysngrace]

Okay, no offense a4a, but your job is high-stress. The crisis is experienced by the one you've rescued and their loved-ones. When I said crisis, I meant that which is personal to you. Loss of a loved one, onset of a serious illness, things of that nature.

 

Have you the ability to find calm in otherwise chaotic personal circumstances? And if so, how?

 

I only ask this because I have witnessed people at funerals, and have seen how they handle the death. Some are calm, at peace while others completely lose it. I can't help but to think the ones who are speaking against God, lashing out and having a real hard time coping are the ones with no faith.

 

Granted I have not been to many funerals in my lifetime, but for some reason, the ones with faith seem to accept it better than those who have none.

 

If I'm incorrect in my observation, please forgive me. But if what I see has some truth to it, why wouldn't one try to find faith? To recognize and appreciate that there is a force bigger than themselves?

[HokeyReligions]

 

There are longstanding traditions around the world that have existed for thousands of years without the need to provide any means of accountability.

 

Where did these traditions start? Why? Why so many variations? What is it about the human species that - even when separated geographically and with no knowledge of others - did so many 'tribes' of humans create these traditions? It is a survival instinct? Is it lack of confidence because of ignorance of human capabilities? How did these stories and rituals and beliefs change after humans developed the capability to write? Do cave painting that show hunting victories and the survival of weather also have a depiction of a God-type being? There were a few posts in the thread discussing the possibility of there one being more than one species of human and possibly through the evolution of technology these species came together and eventually became one species. Or perhaps there was only one and through the planet changes they dispersed and became separate races.

 

I'm not trying to debate GOD, but I am discussing the human behavior of belief and have been interested in hearing other's views on this - not on their belief or non-belief in God or why we should or shouldn't believe in God or whether God exists. That is a discussion for another thread.

[amaysngrace]

Do cave painting that show hunting victories and the survival of weather also have a depiction of a God-type being?

 

Cavemen prayed to thunder. So I guess to them, painting thunder on a wall was a depiction of God.

 

For as simple as they seemed, they were still able to appreciate a force greater than themselves.

[JamesM]

Hokey, good answer. My point from my longwinded reply is if we could answer how the world we began, I believe we would have the answer to your question.

 

And to your other questions re traditions...what if they started in the same place before all of the people began spreading out and filling the earth?

[a4a]

Okay, no offense a4a, but your job is high-stress. The crisis is experienced by the one you've rescued and their loved-ones. When I said crisis, I meant that which is personal to you. Loss of a loved one, onset of a serious illness, things of that nature.

 

Have you the ability to find calm in otherwise chaotic personal circumstances? And if so, how?

I am don't believe I have had anything that chaotic happen in my life. I have lost family and friends to me that were important. I have had a LTR end in a affair. I have not had a maniac chase me with a chainsaw trying to kill me........that would really be chaotic in my view. I have had a man try to abduct me, I have had a man physically attack me..... but I think both were thwarted by me keeping a cool calm head.

 

People die. It is a fact. It happens all the time. I will die, my H will die.... we all will. I view such things as just part of life. I have suffered with a illness but that was again part of life. Death or terminal illness that has no potential to be cured is out of my hands to control. I do not need to freak out about what I cannot change. I do need to focus on those things that I can.

 

How? Well perhaps it is learned or hardwired in my brain but it is not from prayer or belief in a supreme being. Perhaps it is my thinking that I am responsible to deal with it that forces me to be collected and calm. I am not waiting for someone to save me or help me. Or wishing or praying to change things.

 

I only ask this because I have witnessed people at funerals, and have seen how they handle the death. Some are calm, at peace while others completely lose it. I can't help but to think the ones who are speaking against God, lashing out and having a real hard time coping are the ones with no faith.

 

* I do not lash out at the beliefs of others, I only protest the beliefs of others when they have an effect on my freedom or if those beliefs are destroying the freedoms of others. You can worship a potatoe chip but don't try to pass a law that I have to or that I have to adhere to your chip loving belief system.

 

At funerals my concern is about those left behind. I cannot help the dead. There is nothing to be done for them. At times I have been relieved that a person has died to end their suffering and the suffering of their loved ones. Funerals are for the living not for the dead.

 

People who cry about the deaths of others I think are rehashing their own past experiences. At many times I feel sad that life will change without that person in it, but again there is not a thing I can do about it. So I simply keep fond memories (in most cases) of that person.

 

Granted I have not been to many funerals in my lifetime, but for some reason, the ones with faith seem to accept it better than those who have none.

 

If I'm incorrect in my observation, please forgive me. But if what I see has some truth to it, why wouldn't one try to find faith? To recognize and appreciate that there is a force bigger than themselves?

Faith...... I suppose one would have to really define it to discuss a view on that. Do I have faith that my truck will start today?..... yes. Do I have faith that my H will never cheat?... yes. Do I have faith that if I wish really hard that I will win the lottery?......no. It is highly unlikely that I will.

 

Now I do have great faith in myself that I will pull myself out of or be able to endure many tough situations, I have and will continue to.

 

As for a bigger force..... yes nature itself is a huge "force" that I am in awe of.

But I do see myself as a part of that "force". However I do not worship nature.

 

I guess I do not have the need to look for a supreme being to be held responsible for my life or what may happen in my life. I take that responsibility on myself. I do not need to question the reason or origin of life and only include the probablility that it was created by a supreme being. That is way too limiting of an answer to me. That is a mystery that may never be solved and I simply do not buy into current or past theories concocted by man.

[blind_otter]

I have pondered this quite a bit over many years. Of course being exposed to a variety of religions but not practicing any. The only answer I can come up with is...... I don't know which god is the correct one or even if there is one. I tend to believe there is no individual supreme being.

 

My Dad always told me that there are innumerable different paths to the same end, and that the various personificiations of divinity are all ultimately the same, but seen through different cultural lenses.

 

The buddha said that there are millions of different paths to enlightenment, because there are a millions of different kinds of people, and no one way is right for everyone.

[blind_otter]

Where did these traditions start? Why? Why so many variations? What is it about the human species that - even when separated geographically and with no knowledge of others - did so many 'tribes' of humans create these traditions? It is a survival instinct? Is it lack of confidence because of ignorance of human capabilities? How did these stories and rituals and beliefs change after humans developed the capability to write? Do cave painting that show hunting victories and the survival of weather also have a depiction of a God-type being? There were a few posts in the thread discussing the possibility of there one being more than one species of human and possibly through the evolution of technology these species came together and eventually became one species. Or perhaps there was only one and through the planet changes they dispersed and became separate races.

 

I think it's pretty widely accepted that there were evolutionary dead ends that bread into the homo sapien population. Neanderthals come to mind. I read in Nature magazine that genetic researchers theorize that the red hair and freckles some people have comes from ancient neanderthals, so this has been a well known theory for some years. Since I was in college anyways.

 

I saw this last night (not sure if I can include a PBS link, but if it's deleted, google PBS "How Art Made the World") http://www.pbs.org/howartmadetheworld/episodes/death/

 

HUmans do extraordinary things to cope with the looming reality of their own deaths. We keep pictures of dead loved ones, and remember dead celebrities and politicians. We've done this for many thousands of years. In ancient times, we made death masks. In Jericho 9000 years ago, when the average lifespan was 24 years, they celebrated the dead.

 

But this is universal. Across all cultures there is some death ceremony and ritual. Some act of rememberance. And I would not go so far as to attribute this to something genetic. You can't distill every emotion or social concept into the human genome. That doesn't make any sense. There is no magic bullet in sociology that explains the reasons for everything!

 

And interesting enough, there's a Bill Moyers show on PBS called "On Faith and Reason" and I heard a funny blurb the other day:

 

"Athiests, if you haven't noticed, are obsessed with God."

[konfused]

There is more genetic variation between one tribe of chimpanzees in Africa then there is between all the humans of the world. This is evidence that the human species is relatively young - compared to our chimpanzee cousins. Our last common ancestor with the chimps was estimated to be alive 7 million years ago. If you imagine yourself holding hands with your mother who is holding hands with her mother and so on down the line, every human line will eventually meet in one local population of this common ancestor.

 

Hokey, I'm not sure if you are interested in this personally or if you merely want a discussion. If it is the former, check out a book called Breaking the Spell by Daniel Dennett. It just came out in 2006. In it he discusses the origins of religion and spirituality from an evolutionary perspective.

 

Here's some bits of info I find interesting.

 

The tradition of sending daughters off to be married to princes in other countries was most likely used by humans as a bartering system to gain an alliance. In every species of primate, other than human, either all the females or all the males leave the troop and must find new homes. There's just a universal no-no against doing it with your daughter. It's hard to know if primates know why they do it, to preserve DNA variance, but they do it nonetheless. It seems that once humans gained the knowledge of just how powerful and useful the female gender is, she became the first traded commodity. Imagine all the cave bear meetings. These were designed to swap women, among other things. Also, think about the dowry.

 

In ancient Rome, when two men were pledging an oath together they would sometimes grab each other's scrotum. This is where we get the word testimony and testament - from testicle. It's even mentioned in the Old Testament. Somewhere in Genesis David asks his son to put his hand up under his loin cloth and promise he will marry a Jew. But the really interesting part is what primatologists have found. They've observed male primates approaching one another and grasping the other's testicles. It seems to be some sort of non-aggression pact. Similar to the handshake, it probably originated to show the other person, "Hey, I'm not carrying a knife or stone. I mean no harm."

 

How about the story of Samson in the Bible. He has beautiful hair and when it's cut off he loses his power. It's interesting to ponder that he had seven strands of golden hair similar to the seven colors of the rainbow. When his hair is cut off, i.e. the sun, he loses his power. Next he becomes blind. Finally, he burns the fields of the philistines, i.e. All this can be attributed to the sun but it was magically made into a wonderful story. Over time these stories lose their original meaning and they have no connection with the past.

 

How about the fact that for a long period of history the feminine was characterized by reptiles whether turtles or snakes. When the male sky god made its way into Mesopotamia from the steppe it overthrew the female goddess of the Sumerians. We get a major idea of this in the Biblical account of Eve who is tempted by the serpent. They are really one and the same. This is carried over into other cultures like when St. George kills the dragon. It's merely a story about transition. It's even been mentined that many of the saints of the Catholic Church were in reality local pagan gods. In order to ease such transitions, these local groups were allowed to keep such gods in a somewhat lesser position.

 

Humans have a spiritual realm that exists somewhere within them. For instance, when I'm playing golf and say to myself "please let me hit a good shot". Who am I really talking to? Or when a person's car is on the brink of dying, they will wish it along and almost barter with it. "Please, just make it to my house". It's these many smaller, lesser spirits that became the spirits associated with everyday living.

 

As societies and populations grew so did the need for social control. I would venture to say that priests and kings have always coexisted - each in dire need of the other. Most of the laws that were made initially were implemented for social control. It's easier to convince someone to obey when the dictate is divinely inspired. But all rules had rational and practical applications.

 

Hokey, I am obvious a believer in slow transition, a.k.a. evolution, whether it be biological or cultural or a mixture. Religions don't just spring up out of the blue. They have always been there. But they change and evolve as well. I think it all comes down to human evolution. The best understanding we can gain about ourselves would be through anthropology and evolution. It's almost a shame that only 25% of the U.S. believes evolution. Then again, 500 years ago 0% of the world believed the Earth revolved around the sun. Progress is being made. It's just on an evolutionary timescale.

 

Holy crap that was long.

[a4a]

Hokey, I am obvious a believer in slow transition, a.k.a. evolution, whether it be biological or cultural or a mixture. Religions don't just spring up out of the blue. They have always been there. But they change and evolve as well. I think it all comes down to human evolution. The best understanding we can gain about ourselves would be through anthropology and evolution. It's almost a shame that only 25% of the U.S. believes evolution. Then again, 500 years ago 0% of the world believed the Earth revolved around the sun. Progress is being made. It's just on an evolutionary timescale.

 

Holy crap that was long.

 

I think it is possible that many people are afraid to believe in evolution.... piss off the supreme being and you end up SOL....... throw the salt over your shoulder too or else?

[Outcast]

Nothing about evolution is incompatible with religion - it's only the fundies that can't bear science. Adam and Eve could've been two amoeba for all we know.

[quankanne]

Adam and Eve could've been two amoeba for all we know.

 

yes, but what separated them from the other little amoebas ... or baboons or cave-dwellers ... was that they possessed souls.

[a4a]

Adam and Eve could've been two amoeba for all we know.

 

yes, but what separated them from the other little amoebas ... or baboons or cave-dwellers ... was that they possessed souls.

 

Cows may possess souls as well..... but it is easier to think they do not while eating a steak.......

 

Beliefs in religion/rituals are made to serve and coddle .......give permission and ease fears.

[EnigmaXOXO]

I am obvious a believer in slow transition, a.k.a. evolution, whether it be biological or cultural or a mixture. Religions don't just spring up out of the blue. They have always been there. But they change and evolve as well.

 

So true.

 

Religion has it roots in mythology. Myth was a way for primitive man to understand, explain and deal with the mysteries of nature … even his own human nature. It was an oral tradition of story-telling intended to pass along lessons learned by generations gone before. As human intelligence evolved, so did the complexity of his oral tradition. Where more primitive myth once revolved around nature and natural phenomenon, as man began to recognize his connectedness with the natural world … he began to build upon his stories to include people, characters and deities often given human characteristics … some even a combination of both animal and human form.

 

As these different tribes (or cultures) began to mingle and share their oral traditions, they often borrowed bits and pieces of story from each other, and blended it into their own mythology. Somewhere along the line to include many versions of the Virgin Birth, The Great Flood, and idea of one Supreme Creator and/or God.

 

Since Mythology and/or Religion is a cultural accounting of man's history, it is inevitable that it will change and evolve as man's understanding of his world begins to change and evolve. It must. Otherwise, there is a danger that humans will become 'stuck' with archaic ideologies that no longer serve mankind as a whole while we struggle to co-exist and walk together in this evolving modern world. Thus; all the negative connotations that are often associated with organized religion.

 

But, as long as there remains human wonderment and great mysteries left to be solved, people will always question the existence of God.

 

God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that. ~ Joseph Campbell

[a4a]

So true.

 

 

As these different tribes (or cultures) began to mingle and share their oral traditions, they often borrowed bits and pieces of story from each other, and blended it into their own mythology. Somewhere along the line to include many versions of the Virgin Birth, The Great Flood, and idea of one Supreme Creator and/or God.

 

 

May I add : or force their traditions onto other cultures/tribes (with threats of death or torture even to force beliefs at times)

[konfused]

I think it is possible that many people are afraid to believe in evolution.... piss off the supreme being and you end up SOL....... throw the salt over your shoulder too or else?

 

This may be partly true. I think rather that people just don't know about the theory of evolution. I didn't learn about it until college. I went to high school in Indiana so it's not a suprise we didn't hear of it there. Another reason no one knows about it. We have entire states trying to remove the teaching of evolution from the state standards or implement intelligent design. Luckily, such measures have not been successful. But I believe the main reason why people don't even bother with evolution is due to the following.

 

Nothing about evolution is incompatible with religion - it's only the fundies that can't bear science. Adam and Eve could've been two amoeba for all we know.

 

There is that suggestion about the resurrection of an individual organism. One piece of evidence would be enough to shut down the entire theory of evolution. The same way one rock strata containing a human bone and a dinosaur bone would corroborate Creationism. Such evidence has not been found for either case. Imagine if you saw a flying elephant. Goodbye law of gravity.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by quankanne

Adam and Eve could've been two amoeba for all we know.

 

yes, but what separated them from the other little amoebas ... or baboons or cave-dwellers ... was that they possessed souls.

 

=Cows may possess souls as well..... but it is easier to think they do not while eating a steak.......

 

I always thought that God wouldn't seem so loving if we weren't at the top of the food chain.

[a4a]

This may be partly true. I think rather that people just don't know about the theory of evolution. I didn't learn about it until college. .

 

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[HokeyReligions]

I read in Nature magazine that genetic researchers theorize that the red hair and freckles some people have comes from ancient neanderthals, so this has been a well known theory for some years.

 

Well that would explain the "Red-headed step-child" comments people make when they are describing a poor treatment or disrespect from others. I've used that statement to describe how my department is treated or thought of within the company -- meaning we are often the 'bottom' of the food-chain in terms of management.

 

The earlier forms of man like neanderthal are kind of what I was thinking about when I first commented on their once being different species of human.

[HokeyReligions]

Cavemen prayed to thunder. So I guess to them, painting thunder on a wall was a depiction of God.

 

For as simple as they seemed, they were still able to appreciate a force greater than themselves.

 

It would be interesting to really know the reasons they created rituals to forces of nature or to what they did not understand, and how their thought processes worked. Many animals fear natural forces like thunder or lightening but it's always been thought that it was because of the noise and light that just scared them and humans are the only beings to question and attribute 'greater' things to those forces of nature. Is it something in the genetic makeup of humans or something outside of humans? Was it fear that prompted humans to attribute a being to these natural events? We will never know, but it's interesting to think about.

 

In animal research it is a theory that following certain weather patterns some species of animals somehow know that life-sustaining rain will follow and their behavior demonstrates that. I don't remember what animal it was that I was reading about -- it was a mammal, but not a well-known one -- that after a drought would scrape shallow 'pools' around its territory and when the rains came they would fill with water and the animals would use that. They are using a logic to allow themselves to store rainwater for future use. The researchers who studed these animals over several years so no other reason for this act and surmised that it WAS for future use. Instinct? Or some logical thought process?

[HokeyReligions]

There is more genetic variation between one tribe of chimpanzees in Africa then there is between all the humans of the world. This is evidence that the human species is relatively young - compared to our chimpanzee cousins. Our last common ancestor with the chimps was estimated to be alive 7 million years ago. If you imagine yourself holding hands with your mother who is holding hands with her mother and so on down the line, every human line will eventually meet in one local population of this common ancestor.

 

Hokey, I'm not sure if you are interested in this personally or if you merely want a discussion. If it is the former, check out a book called Breaking the Spell by Daniel Dennett. It just came out in 2006. In it he discusses the origins of religion and spirituality from an evolutionary perspective.

 

Here's some bits of info I find interesting.

 

The tradition of sending daughters off to be married to princes in other countries was most likely used by humans as a bartering system to gain an alliance. In every species of primate, other than human, either all the females or all the males leave the troop and must find new homes. There's just a universal no-no against doing it with your daughter. It's hard to know if primates know why they do it, to preserve DNA variance, but they do it nonetheless. It seems that once humans gained the knowledge of just how powerful and useful the female gender is, she became the first traded commodity. Imagine all the cave bear meetings. These were designed to swap women, among other things. Also, think about the dowry.

 

In ancient Rome, when two men were pledging an oath together they would sometimes grab each other's scrotum. This is where we get the word testimony and testament - from testicle. It's even mentioned in the Old Testament. Somewhere in Genesis David asks his son to put his hand up under his loin cloth and promise he will marry a Jew. But the really interesting part is what primatologists have found. They've observed male primates approaching one another and grasping the other's testicles. It seems to be some sort of non-aggression pact. Similar to the handshake, it probably originated to show the other person, "Hey, I'm not carrying a knife or stone. I mean no harm."

 

How about the story of Samson in the Bible. He has beautiful hair and when it's cut off he loses his power. It's interesting to ponder that he had seven strands of golden hair similar to the seven colors of the rainbow. When his hair is cut off, i.e. the sun, he loses his power. Next he becomes blind. Finally, he burns the fields of the philistines, i.e. All this can be attributed to the sun but it was magically made into a wonderful story. Over time these stories lose their original meaning and they have no connection with the past.

 

How about the fact that for a long period of history the feminine was characterized by reptiles whether turtles or snakes. When the male sky god made its way into Mesopotamia from the steppe it overthrew the female goddess of the Sumerians. We get a major idea of this in the Biblical account of Eve who is tempted by the serpent. They are really one and the same. This is carried over into other cultures like when St. George kills the dragon. It's merely a story about transition. It's even been mentined that many of the saints of the Catholic Church were in reality local pagan gods. In order to ease such transitions, these local groups were allowed to keep such gods in a somewhat lesser position.

 

Humans have a spiritual realm that exists somewhere within them. For instance, when I'm playing golf and say to myself "please let me hit a good shot". Who am I really talking to? Or when a person's car is on the brink of dying, they will wish it along and almost barter with it. "Please, just make it to my house". It's these many smaller, lesser spirits that became the spirits associated with everyday living.

 

As societies and populations grew so did the need for social control. I would venture to say that priests and kings have always coexisted - each in dire need of the other. Most of the laws that were made initially were implemented for social control. It's easier to convince someone to obey when the dictate is divinely inspired. But all rules had rational and practical applications.

 

Hokey, I am obvious a believer in slow transition, a.k.a. evolution, whether it be biological or cultural or a mixture. Religions don't just spring up out of the blue. They have always been there. But they change and evolve as well. I think it all comes down to human evolution. The best understanding we can gain about ourselves would be through anthropology and evolution. It's almost a shame that only 25% of the U.S. believes evolution. Then again, 500 years ago 0% of the world believed the Earth revolved around the sun. Progress is being made. It's just on an evolutionary timescale.

 

Holy crap that was long.

 

 

Excellent post - thank you. I have heard some variations of what you said before and I will check into that book.

 

Loved the analogy with the car. I'm usually muttering "c'mon you piece of #$% @*& #$#@ Crap!" and everyone Knows I'm talking TO the car!

 

The social control laws are visible in the animal world too. Lion pride's have established rules of behavior that the community follows; as do other social groups of animals. They just don't have to have an act of congress!

[HokeyReligions]

Some of the posts put in mind of some worms. What was that experiment where they put some worms in a maze. The worms go all over the place and take forever to get out of the maze. After the finally finish they are fed to other worms (what a lousy reward - maybe that's why they took so long!) and the worms that ate them took less time to navigate the maze, and so on until the final batch of worms - who had never been in the maze before - are able to navigate right through it. They seem to have absorbed the 'knowledge' of their predecessors. I remember that from high-school. But - I think later experiements posed a new theory that the worms left some kind of 'marker' that later worms were able to interpret. A smell, texture, taste - something that later worms were able to interpret. Either way there was some form of communication.

[a4a]

It would be interesting to really know the reasons they created rituals to forces of nature or to what they did not understand, and how their thought processes worked. Many animals fear natural forces like thunder or lightening but it's always been thought that it was because of the noise and light that just scared them and humans are the only beings to question and attribute 'greater' things to those forces of nature.

 

 

And the only ones stupid enough to think that they could control it through concocted rituals.

[blind_otter]

Many animals fear natural forces like thunder or lightening but it's always been thought that it was because of the noise and light that just scared them and humans are the only beings to question and attribute 'greater' things to those forces of nature. Is it something in the genetic makeup of humans or something outside of humans? Was it fear that prompted humans to attribute a being to these natural events? We will never know, but it's interesting to think about.

 

I'd say the answer is pretty easy. We have the ability to not only understand our own existence, but we are also aware that we will die, and we remember others in our social groups who have died as a way of comforting ourselves about the knowledge that we will die. It makes sense to me that unexplainable and terrifying natural phenomena would trigger similar feelings.

 

In the mid 15th century the aztec civilization perpetrated one of the most horrific slaughters in recorded history. They sacrificed 40,000 captives over the course of 4 days -- 4 lines of men, women and children that stretched 2 miles. They cut out the still beating heart of the living victim, and decapitated the victim and placed the heads on a rack.

 

Why did they do this? They believed that the sun was a huge sacraficial altar, and that it's fire was fueled by blood sacrifices. They believed that without this mass of blood, the sun would go out and cause the end of the world. Recent researchers disocvered, though, that a group that is reminded viscerally of their own death will tend to be more cohesive when faced with an "out" group. So it served a social and political function as well.

 

They are using a logic to allow themselves to store rainwater for future use. The researchers who studed these animals over several years so no other reason for this act and surmised that it WAS for future use. Instinct? Or some logical thought process?

 

Instinct. The way that most herd animals brains are structures the area that governs logical thought is not as developed and not nearly as large as primates.

 

And of course the reason primates have that huge prefrontal cortex is because of the complex demands of their social interactions and hierarchy.

[Love_and_Respect]

Well, goodness, Hokey. Invisible walls, you say. To protect me from the world. Actually, my walls are down. I feel united in humanity, a human who possesses the same characteristics with others throughout the world. I don't feel I need to be shielded from the world, in fact I rather like that I have a connection to the Earth and others who walk on it.

 

I am not afraid of my own exsistence. I love my life. I'm glad to be who I am and would not be the same person I am today had I not had my faith. I might doubt, search, seek and try to make sense out of something that seems illogical. Thankfully, I don't have these worries. That may seem unintelligent to you but I truly believe there is a Creator. I think our world, the sun, the elements, plant and life form, and human race were created.

 

How do you see it?

 

I also believe in a Creator who also chose to be our Savior. Huge sacrifice on the behalf of folks like us.

I love your name, Amayzingrace

[amaysngrace]

I also believe in a Creator who also chose to be our Savior. Huge sacrifice on the behalf of folks like us.

I love your name, Amayzingrace

 

Nice to meet you Love and Respect. I like your name too.

 

I think it's safe to say you haven't read this entire thread where I concoct a theory of how we humans will evolve into space creatures, huh?

 

Welcome to LOVESHACK!!

[Love_and_Respect]

Nice to meet you Love and Respect. I like your name too.

 

I think it's safe to say you haven't read this entire thread where I concoct a theory of how we humans will evolve into space creatures, huh?

 

Welcome to LOVESHACK!!

 

Hey, nice meeting you too.

 

And talking about "evolving into space creatures"... I know Christ will back way before that would EVER happen

 

Praise the Lord!