I'm the MM and I love my OW - now what?

[lighthouse]

I have just read all of the 729 posts in this thread and I have agreed with almost each one of you in almost every post. However, it wasn't until the last two pages when H2T actually became a human to me. I don't know what the answer is for you H2T but here is what I know.:

You made your bed, now you get to lie in it. If you don't want to lie in it alone you better be willing to take whatever she dishes out to you. And what is really going to get to you is you get to lie in it for quite awhile because this is NOT going to happen on your INSTANT GRATIFICATION TIMELINE.

Keep going to MC and IC and please actually listen to what your C says.

Also, and this maybe stupid but I don't think it would be for me if I was your W, does she know that you can and do monitor all of her internet activity? That would absolutely infuriate me (it would also infuriate me if my parents had been doing that to me when I was younger but you get to deal with that later on - good luck there also.)

I find it rather intesting that you MUST be in control of everything. That is not how life works as it appears you are finding out. Could this have a lot to do with the fact that you come from a household where there was an alcoholic mother? Yup. Talk to your IC about that one.

Everyone is right, you definitely need some IC and I am glad that you are getting some.

I wish you the absolute best and will follow your thread.

Take care.

[Hard2Think]

Ok - I'm never posting while drunk again ..!

 

In spite of it all - we did our usual routine this morning. She got up to teach a class and I had her coffee made for her just the specific way he likes it. I took the kids to their reglarly scheduled Saturday morning activities and watched them. When we came back - I made the usual huge vegetable, onion, cheese omelette that everyone likes. The food was ready just as my wife came home, as it always is - and I had another cup of coffee ready for her. After everyone was done - I cleaned the kitchen like I always do until it looks like a showroom kitchen

 

At one point, she just came up to me and gave me a long hug and told me that she can see that I've been very nice and she asked me why. I said "Because I love you". She then asked "How did we wind up like this?" and I said that the the answer isn't just in one sentence. I wish I had said "Come to MC with me and we'll find out". Maybe next time ..

 

She hasn't been angry with me today - but she hasn't been receptive to my touching her - so I don't. But I'm getting withdrawal syptoms for my wife. Not even just sex - I'm just dying to hold her close to me and to feel her holding me tightly. I'm dying to kiss her and to hold her as we watch a movie in our room. Or even just hold her hand.

 

Lighthouse - I can't BELIEVE you read all that!! Amazing. How long did that take you?

 

As to the logs .. they were there to keep track of the kids. I actually have since installed a complete monitoring system on my daughter. My wife was on the same page with me on this. There are too many creepos and sleazebags on the internet, including a couple of her classmates - and we want to make sure we know when there's potential for trouble. I don't care if it's intrusive, my job is to protect them at this point.

 

I don't monitor my wife's computer. I have none of that software on her PC. In fact I never looked at the logs in the past except lately. When she goes on a rampage - I want to know if she's deciding to get a lawyer. Once she does that, I'm going on red alert.

 

As to my alcoholic parents - I don't think I had control and I don't think I seek control as much as you think. Nobody would ever describe me as controlling. I suspect my story is more one of appeasement and denial. Appeasement not to rile up an already agitated drunk and denial that there is a real problem - especially once the day is sunny the next day and everyone is sober.

[Hard2Think]

I'm a bit concerned that my wife is starting to tell me that she no longer feels the same for me. That she no longer loves me the way she used to. And that she doesn't see what's in it for her in this marriage anymore. She says she's staying for the sake of the kids and that's it.

 

Is this part of the anger - or is she going to leave the M?

 

I'll stay with her throughout the whole rollercoaster ride - but if I think she no longer loves me .. I'm gone. That's the only thing keeping me here.

 

Which makes me wonder .. even if she forgives me, will the marriage ever be any good? Or will it forever be a struggle she has to keep from hating me for years and years to come? Will it ever be possible to have her be a loving wife like I wanted her to be since the beginning?

[whichwayisup]

Ok - I'm never posting while drunk again ..!

 

Nah, it's OK. Trust me, I've read worse!

 

If she forgives you, then you two have to make the marriage better than before. Like a new beginning. Get to know eachother again, have fun, talk, giggle, be silly - And always be honest about your thoughts/feelings. If she pisses you off or you piss her off, let eachother know! Don't hold back. If a need of yours isn't being met, talk about it calmly. Listen, and really "hear" eachother, rather than listening with what you think she said and vice versa.

 

It's better to give this all you got and then not at all.

[lighthouse]

Ok - I'm never posting while drunk again ..!

 

In spite of it all - we did our usual routine this morning. She got up to teach a class and I had her coffee made for her just the specific way he likes it. I took the kids to their reglarly scheduled Saturday morning activities and watched them. When we came back - I made the usual huge vegetable, onion, cheese omelette that everyone likes. The food was ready just as my wife came home, as it always is - and I had another cup of coffee ready for her. After everyone was done - I cleaned the kitchen like I always do until it looks like a showroom kitchen

 

At one point, she just came up to me and gave me a long hug and told me that she can see that I've been very nice and she asked me why. I said "Because I love you". She then asked "How did we wind up like this?" and I said that the the answer isn't just in one sentence. I wish I had said "Come to MC with me and we'll find out". Maybe next time ..

 

She hasn't been angry with me today - but she hasn't been receptive to my touching her - so I don't. But I'm getting withdrawal syptoms for my wife. Not even just sex - I'm just dying to hold her close to me and to feel her holding me tightly. I'm dying to kiss her and to hold her as we watch a movie in our room. Or even just hold her hand.

 

Lighthouse - I can't BELIEVE you read all that!! Amazing. How long did that take you?

 

As to the logs .. they were there to keep track of the kids. I actually have since installed a complete monitoring system on my daughter. My wife was on the same page with me on this. There are too many creepos and sleazebags on the internet, including a couple of her classmates - and we want to make sure we know when there's potential for trouble. I don't care if it's intrusive, my job is to protect them at this point.

 

I don't monitor my wife's computer. I have none of that software on her PC. In fact I never looked at the logs in the past except lately. When she goes on a rampage - I want to know if she's deciding to get a lawyer. Once she does that, I'm going on red alert.

 

As to my alcoholic parents - I don't think I had control and I don't think I seek control as much as you think. Nobody would ever describe me as controlling. I suspect my story is more one of appeasement and denial. Appeasement not to rile up an already agitated drunk and denial that there is a real problem - especially once the day is sunny the next day and everyone is sober.

 

It took me a couple of hours but I am a fast reader. I then followed WWIU's advice and read DazedNConfused's thread.

 

I am sure that this is not the place to go into the thing about your children and therefore I won't but I will say that my parents learned a hard lesson about monitoring me - never did it again and from that day on (when I was 14) they trusted me IMPLICITLY. I was very fortunate in that my parents knew what was out there, informed me, let me screw it up and were there to help me fix it. I understand that it is a little different today but I also know that when all of my friends were lying to their parents about where they were my parents not only knew where I was, could call me on my cell phone but also knew the directions to the place I was - everytime. Everyone in my high school used to joke about it - they were all lying to their parents about nothing while I told my parents EVERYTHING - drugs, alcohol, sex - EVERYTHING.

 

So you don't monitor your wife's computer? Except for when you recently started looking at the logs? I know, it is only to protect you because if she gets a lawyer you have to get one also so she doesn't get more than, let me guess, "her fair share." Yea, right. That is going to go over well. If she didn't throw you out because of the affair then the fact that it appears that you don't trust HER should be the clincher. It would be for me.

 

I don't think that you had any control about having alcoholic parents, which leads to needing control today. Look, I read ALL of your posts. I don't think, by any means, that you are some horrible, wife-beating, controlling SOB; however I do think that you have control issues. How dare the OW show up at your house and without calling/emailing you first? Because you screwed her over and broke her heart!! How dare your wife (who is a nice person sometimes but enjoys teaching aerobics and wants to go to sleep early although she doesn't need the money because you provide very well for her) vacillate on her feelings for you? Yea, because you have ALWAYS been sure of your feelings for her! Dude, you screwed up, screwed her over, screwed the OW over, and screwed your innocent children over and I don't even think that you see it.

 

On one of your posts in the very beginning you said (I am paraphrasing here) that you wanted to make things work with the OW and then, and only then, if that didn't work out then you wanted, hoped and expected (yes expected) your wife to be there for you. YOU SAID THAT (or else I misread or misquoted but I don't think that I did).

 

Like I said I also read DazedNConfused's thread. He has more remorse for his actions (btw for those of you that don't know, if there any here that don't, he wasn't the one that had the affair - his wife did) than you do!!

I am not trying to be a smart a$$ here, really I am not, but I have to say that for someone who is trying to protect his daughter (by invading her privacy which, even though she is a minor she still has a right to some privacy) YOU are the type of male that my father warned me about.

 

Go re-read DazedNConfused's thread and then go re-read your thread. Then look at it through my eyes. You might be shocked. I sure was.

Lighthouse

[FlyingHigh]

'm a bit concerned that my wife is starting to tell me that she no longer feels the same for me

It's a possibility. And once she finds out that you had NOT ONE, but TWO affairs, you might as well have a bag packed, because your a$$ will be grass. This is the problem with lying versus the truth. The truth has a way of working it's way to the surface. Whether or not you tell her, the truth of that other affair the truth will make its way to the light.

 

That she no longer loves me the way she used to. And that she doesn't see what's in it for her in this marriage anymore

If this is the first time she said this, there might be some truth to it. If an A doesn't heal a M, it will kill it.

 

She says she's staying for the sake of the kids and that's it.

This is your only shot in redeeming yourself and making amends with her.

 

I'll stay with her throughout the whole rollercoaster ride - but if I think she no longer loves me .. I'm gone. That's the only thing keeping me here

OK, H - allow me to be blunt with you. I've read your posts and this is the part the irks me about you. WHY? Reread your quote...

 

Your "willingness" to stay or stick it out is "CONDITIONAL!" In other words, your LOVE is conditional. You can argue that it's not true, but the fact of the matter is that anytime you think or "assume" that your W react or behave with your diapproval you're ready to run!

 

Another thing that I noticed is that when your W reacts (as expected under the circumstance) unfavorably according to how she should act, you tend to "over react" after. You're like a chicken with its head cut off in a fire drill! Then when someone diasagrees with you, you get defensive and try to turn the table on them.

 

Can you see a pattern here?

 

Which makes me wonder .. even if she forgives me, will the marriage ever be any good?

Why worry about this? She either will or she won't. Worry about what you can do now. You are still assuming. You've been advised by so many to not assume. You're still doing it. If I were you, I'd be more worried about her finding out about the other Affair. AND if you are going to IC, you should discuss this.

 

Or will it forever be a struggle she has to keep from hating me for years and years to come?

Again, why worry about something you can't control? How she chooses to regard you is simply her choice. The fact that she said she's only staying in the M b/c of the kids shows a woman who is more concerned about her kids than herself, you or the M.

 

Will it ever be possible to have her be a loving wife like I wanted her to be since the beginning?

Will it ever be possible for you to ever be faithful again?

[lighthouse]

Right on Flying High.

If only people saw it the way that you and I do - when you come into this with no emotional investment because, sorry y'all, everyone who has posted on this thread has become emotionally involved in one way or another. It seems like you and I, both new members, came in andd read it and called it like we see it - without actually having lived through it.

Lighthouse

[Hard2Think]

Thanks FH,

 

Just for the record - she already knows about the other A. She doesn't know to what extent it was an A. I did minimize it to seem like a minor, short-lived EA at the time. But she does know there was another person. We had gone through alot (without an MC - maybe a mistake) and she promised to work with me to make this a better marriage - which she and I did for a short time. But soon, we were back to square one .. and I didn't know what to do to prevent it or to get us back t where we were.

 

The monitoring thing isn't just me. To tell you the truth - it was my wife who really insisted I do it. We had talked about it before and we saw some programs on TV about predators - and so she kept asking me to hurry up and install something .. I thought it was a good idea as well, and so I did. But I don't want you to think I was sitting there solo in the middle of the night cooking up a surveillance scheme.

 

As to the divorce - no it's not at all about "my fair share". Once before, we had discussed divorce and I was determined to keep it friendly - even if she gets all my stuff. I really don't care very much about stuff and I really never did. I'll always make more money - and I'll always be sure she's ok financially. I'm more worried about her trying to keep me from my kids or something and blindsiding me. She's angry and she said some things about that which scared me a little. But yes, now that you mention it .. and now that I think about it .. I'll disable the logging. Hell with it.

 

I didn't get that I was ready to run at the slightest hint of disapproval ..! I've been here .. but I admit that I see it as being difficult to see any future if she has no feelings for me. That's the only thing that ever mattered to me - and it's the only thing that metters to me now.

 

I do get irritated at some posts - this is true. But that's only when people start making assumptions about how I was with my wife, without any information other than their own predjudices. For instance, someone asserted that I must have been whining and nagging for my wife not to hear about the serious problems I saw in our relationship. In other words - if I had not whined and nagged as this person said I did, then my wife would have listened - so therefore it's obviously my fault. Another person even cooked up a whole scenario that never happened about me moralizing someone else's affair .. Other than that - many people have leveled some harsh criticisms here that I took to heart and looked at carefully. I don't mind that in the least.

 

Will it be possible for me to be faithful again? Yes. I was for the first 12 years of our marriage and I was presented with many temptations. But things were different then. At this point - even if we reconciled and my wife reverted back to the way she was -I still wouldn't have an A. I can't bear to see the pain that it caused her and if for nothing else - I wont do it for that reason. I also won't have an A because it was ultimately not the answer I thought it would be to my problems-it only made things worse. The whole experience was disgusting.

 

As to my wife's concerns - I believe she always was more concerned about the kids and herself and her jobs than with me or the M. That's nothing new.

 

It's a possibility. And once she finds out that you had NOT ONE, but TWO affairs, you might as well have a bag packed, because your a$$ will be grass. This is the problem with lying versus the truth. The truth has a way of working it's way to the surface. Whether or not you tell her, the truth of that other affair the truth will make its way to the light.

 

 

If this is the first time she said this, there might be some truth to it. If an A doesn't heal a M, it will kill it.

 

This is your only shot in redeeming yourself and making amends with her.

 

 

OK, H - allow me to be blunt with you. I've read your posts and this is the part the irks me about you. WHY? Reread your quote...

 

Your "willingness" to stay or stick it out is "CONDITIONAL!" In other words, your LOVE is conditional. You can argue that it's not true, but the fact of the matter is that anytime you think or "assume" that your W react or behave with your diapproval you're ready to run!

 

Another thing that I noticed is that when your W reacts (as expected under the circumstance) unfavorably according to how she should act, you tend to "over react" after. You're like a chicken with its head cut off in a fire drill! Then when someone diasagrees with you, you get defensive and try to turn the table on them.

 

Can you see a pattern here?

 

Why worry about this? She either will or she won't. Worry about what you can do now. You are still assuming. You've been advised by so many to not assume. You're still doing it. If I were you, I'd be more worried about her finding out about the other Affair. AND if you are going to IC, you should discuss this.

 

 

Again, why worry about something you can't control? How she chooses to regard you is simply her choice. The fact that she said she's only staying in the M b/c of the kids shows a woman who is more concerned about her kids than herself, you or the M.

 

 

Will it ever be possible for you to ever be faithful again?

[Hard2Think]

No. Everyone's judgement is clouded by their own interpretation of what they read here. That I've noticed even from recent posters. I've come to accept that.

 

Right on Flying High.

If only people saw it the way that you and I do - when you come into this with no emotional investment because, sorry y'all, everyone who has posted on this thread has become emotionally involved in one way or another. It seems like you and I, both new members, came in andd read it and called it like we see it - without actually having lived through it.

Lighthouse

[lighthouse]

Yes you are right H2T. Obviously I am quick to judge about the monitoring the kids thing because I was a kid and I remember my friends all getting on drugs and getting pregnant and then sometimes abortions and where did they come for support? MY PARENTS (and they still do btw). However, what I was saying to Flying is that most people have been there throughout this whole deal. They started out trying to help a "MM who is in love with the OW" and even though that has all changed now (which amazes me but whatever) and they lived through the OW busting you, the first MC, the trip to wherever your wife was. You get the point. Imagine it like this - they were there while you "made the movie" (not trying to trivialize at all please understand) and they saw some of the "behind the scenes" whereas I walked in and saw a movie - albeit unfinished. Does that make sense? Obviously I came into with my own "baggage" but I didn't have any emotions invested in your life.

If your wife was the one that demanded (or strongly suggested) the monitoring of your daughter then you better keep on doing that because that too could be seen as you being less than honest - for example it could be seen as you talking to other women again and not wanting the wife to be able to see that (which I am not suggesting you are doing). Isn't there anyway you could monitor your children (oh I hate saying that because I am sooo against it) without being able to monitor your wife? You knew when you married your wife that it would probably take you down some strange roads and difficult turns and that you probably couldn't predict where you two would be in 5 or 10 years yet you wonder if this is all worth it if she is just going to leave. You don't get that right. You lost that when you went outside of your marriage and broke your vows to your wife. The OW didn't break any vows. Your wife didn't - you did.

As I said, you made your bed. Now do what you can to make sure you don't lie in it alone.

Again, if you haven't I strongly suggest you go back and re-read your entire thread.

[FlyingHigh]

She doesn't know to what extent it was an A. I did minimize it to seem like a minor, short-lived EA at the time.

DO YOU REALIZE WHAT YOU HAVE JUST DONE? Think about it....

 

Allow me to be blunt again. THIS was your OPPORTUNITY to be HONEST. This was an opportunity to make amends. There was NOTHING more to gain by minimizing that affair! Once she finds out the extent of that affair, your credibility is SHOT! You are as dead as a rabbit's foot on a keychain! There is no way that your W OR any self-respecting woman would EVER consider forgiving you.

 

The monitoring thing isn't just me. To tell you the truth - it was my wife who really insisted I do it.

But you took advantage of it because you want to be a step ahead of her.

 

What's happening here is that you don't trust your W to not turn against you. You are living in fear of what she might do. You fear that if she hates you, she'll use the kids against you and you may not see the kids if she divorces you. That's why you keep assuming what she might do.

 

H-you seem like an intelligent man, but who is emotionally strung on fear that you can't seem to see the trees from the forest. You fear losing control of the situation so you assume what you might do based on what or HOW you think your W will react.

 

I didn't get that I was ready to run at the slightest hint of disapproval ..! I've been here

Yes, you do! And this is probably why a lot of readers "perceive" you as a whiner and frankly I have to add that it's a like a kid throwing a tantrum when he doesn't get what he wants.

 

this is true. I do get irritated at some posts - this is true. QUOTE]

Expect it! Consider this a public forum. Be glad you're not in a town meeting.

 

But that's only when people start making assumptions about how I was with my wife, without any information other than their own predjudices

Their assumptions are based on what you've written about your wife. Your wife is not on this forum so there is nothing for readers to base their replies.

 

Reread your quote again....

 

You don't like it when people make "assumptions" about you, but you're quick to make assumptions about them and your wife.

 

Listen H, there's a lot going on in here. You need to figure out why you do this. When someone live by assumptions, it's usually a pretty good indicator about their insecurity. Hold on to your defensive mechanism here...Just think about it. Go back and read some of your posts and try to understand why you react/act/behave the way you do. Often times, the cause could be child related, family upbringing, relationship dynamics within the family.

 

Will it be possible for me to be faithful again? Yes. I was for the first 12 years of our marriage and I was presented with many temptations.

I started to believe at first. But doubtful once you said "I was presented with many temptations"...

 

Here's why I'm doubtful. One, you minimized telling your W of the second affair. Two, you haven't really dealt as to WHY you had the first affair in the first place. And because you haven't, it led you to the second A.

 

Guess what? You will always be presented with many more temptations. If you haven't learned the first time, what makes you think you haven't learned the second time? Had the OW in this A not shown up at your doorstep, that affair would have continued under radar and you would've been just as happy a bird.

 

As to my wife's concerns - I believe she always was more concerned about the kids and herself and her jobs than with me or the M. That's nothing new.

Re-read this again....especially about when you say..."I believe..."

 

If this remark doesn't piss off anymore people, it should!

 

H - you are ASSUMING again!! You are shoving your W in a negative frame. Why do you do this????!!!!

 

Ask yourself WHY?

[Hard2Think]

Yeah - it's easy. Each of us has their own PC. I'm a computer guy, so my office has 9 of them.

 

I realize that my change of heart about the OW and my wife is confusing. Believe it or not - it was for me as well. I was very distraught at the state of my marriage and was seriously contemplating leaving - but was finding it very difficult to do so. In hindsight - I suspect I was using OW as my escape hatch.

 

I'm not saying that it was OK for me to have the A. It wasn't. I am saying that the marriage was pure hell for me for years. It was so bad that I had already consulted attorneys and was ready to file long before I met OW. But there were short periods where she would be nice to me again and I would think that maybe "everything is going to be OK" and I'd forget the whole thing. There was also the problem that although I hated to admit it - I was, and I am, hopelessly in love with my wife. But if actions do indeed speak louder than words - then my wife's actions all indicated that she didn't care about me and didn't find me very appealing in bed.

 

It's only seeing her reaction to the A that I see that maybe she did love me after all - otherwise she'd be somewhat relieved or just pridefully indignant. Not heartbroken.

 

My struggle right now is not just about her to forgiving me - it's also about not facing another 8 years of the same hurtful treatement in the future.

 

I recognize that most people here want me to accept all the blame for the state of the marriage that led to the A - but I don't think that would be constructive. While I have been apologizing profusley for my behavior - I don't want one from her. It's not about that. She's already forgiven in my mind. It more important than that.

 

I don't know if this can make any sense: But if the A and the poor state of the marriage rests only on my shoulders - my wife will view herself as having been wronged for no apparent reason. The injustice will be too hard to overcome for her and there will be only me left trying to rebuild parts of the marriage I can't fix alone. But the reality is that the marriage was breaking down in part because she didn't see my needs as being very important - and there was no way I could get through to her on that. Even she concedes that as being true. I was left in the position of choosing between not having my needs met for the rest of my life, the A, or divorcing her. I chose the A - and I wish to God I hadn't. But I did.

 

Yes you are right H2T. Obviously I am quick to judge about the monitoring the kids thing because I was a kid and I remember my friends all getting on drugs and getting pregnant and then sometimes abortions and where did they come for support? MY PARENTS (and they still do btw). However, what I was saying to Flying is that most people have been there throughout this whole deal. They started out trying to help a "MM who is in love with the OW" and even though that has all changed now (which amazes me but whatever) and they lived through the OW busting you, the first MC, the trip to wherever your wife was. You get the point. Imagine it like this - they were there while you "made the movie" (not trying to trivialize at all please understand) and they saw some of the "behind the scenes" whereas I walked in and saw a movie - albeit unfinished. Does that make sense? Obviously I came into with my own "baggage" but I didn't have any emotions invested in your life.

If your wife was the one that demanded (or strongly suggested) the monitoring of your daughter then you better keep on doing that because that too could be seen as you being less than honest - for example it could be seen as you talking to other women again and not wanting the wife to be able to see that (which I am not suggesting you are doing). Isn't there anyway you could monitor your children (oh I hate saying that because I am sooo against it) without being able to monitor your wife? You knew when you married your wife that it would probably take you down some strange roads and difficult turns and that you probably couldn't predict where you two would be in 5 or 10 years yet you wonder if this is all worth it if she is just going to leave. You don't get that right. You lost that when you went outside of your marriage and broke your vows to your wife. The OW didn't break any vows. Your wife didn't - you did.

As I said, you made your bed. Now do what you can to make sure you don't lie in it alone.

Again, if you haven't I strongly suggest you go back and re-read your entire thread.

[Hard2Think]

This is what I mean about the assumptions.

 

..

Had the OW in this A not shown up at your doorstep, that affair would have continued under radar and you would've been just as happy a bird.

..

[lighthouse]

This is what I mean about the assumptions.

Yea. Go back and re-read your freaking thread. Flying is right. You wanted to leave your wife for your wonderful, loving OW because you weren't happy, she wasn't "nice" all the time, she did this, she didn't do this....blah, blah, blah.

You didn't even want to tell your wife - the OW did that one for you and thank god that she did otherwise you would have left your wife for the OW - because that is what you were going to do. That was the plan UNTIL the OW was so hurt and so devastated by your lies that she busted you and busted you big time. And you know what, you deserved it and your wife deserved to know the truth about you.

A lot of people have quit posting on your thread. I don't know why but from the frustration that I am feeling I can imagine. You don't get it and I am not sure that you even want to.

Flying - yes I read the same thing and it absolutely infuriated me as well, unfortunately I can't read and post at the same time so I can't remember what I was mad at - or rather what else - but I agree with you on everything.

[Hard2Think]

Sorry I offended you ..!

 

Yea. Go back and re-read your freaking thread. Flying is right. You wanted to leave your wife for your wonderful, loving OW because you weren't happy, she wasn't "nice" all the time, she did this, she didn't do this....blah, blah, blah.

You didn't even want to tell your wife - the OW did that one for you and thank god that she did otherwise you would have left your wife for the OW - because that is what you were going to do. That was the plan UNTIL the OW was so hurt and so devastated by your lies that she busted you and busted you big time. And you know what, you deserved it and your wife deserved to know the truth about you.

A lot of people have quit posting on your thread. I don't know why but from the frustration that I am feeling I can imagine. You don't get it and I am not sure that you even want to.

Flying - yes I read the same thing and it absolutely infuriated me as well, unfortunately I can't read and post at the same time so I can't remember what I was mad at - or rather what else - but I agree with you on everything.

[lighthouse]

Flying have you read all 744 posts in this thread also because you sound EXACTLY like me. I wish that H2T would re-read it - then he would see what he so clearly can not.

Frustrated,

lighthouse

[FlyingHigh]

This is what I mean about the assumptions.

H - this is exactly the kind of crap I'm referring to when you get a reply that hits you right smack between the eye! You're quick to turn the table on them!

 

Be careful...pretty soon all you will have left to talk to is yourself.

[FlyingHigh]

Flying have you read all 744 posts in this thread also because you sound EXACTLY like me. I wish that H2T would re-read it - then he would see what he so clearly can not.

Frustrated,

lighthouse

Yep....your sentiments regarding your frustration is shared by many.

[FlyingHigh]

It's only seeing her reaction to the A that I see that maybe she did love me after all - otherwise she'd be somewhat relieved or just pridefully indignant. Not heartbroken.

Exactly how did you think she was going to react to your A? C'mon! Think about what you just wrote, H? Did you think she was going to welcome a third string into your M?

 

Re-read your quote:

It's only seeing her reaction to the A that I see that maybe she did love me after all QUOTE]

These are words spoken by an insecure man. This may be hard for you to accept but your posts are filled with second-guessing yourself because you spend so much time "second-guessing" your W. It's no wonder you feel so "f*cked as you described. You feel you can't seem to get it "right."

 

Bluntly, the only right thing you could've done right is tell the truth. Somehow, you're still having problems with it otherwise you would not have "minimized" the extent of the other affair. Affair is an affair regardless how many times you've had them.

 

What you have also done when you decided to "minimize" the A is that you "undermined" your W's intellingence. If anything, she probably knows in her gut feelings you're not upfront with her. And DON'T even think for a second that she won't try to find the truth. And from what you wrote, that other OW lives within driving distance, you can bet your W will find out. No amount of pleading, praying or crying will save you.

 

But if the A and the poor state of the marriage rests only on my shoulders - my wife will view herself as having been wronged for no apparent reason

What makes you think that she will? H----you're assuming again.

 

The injustice will be too hard to overcome for her and there will be only me left trying to rebuild parts of the marriage I can't fix alone.

Do you honestly think that your W is not a strong enough woman to overcome whatever "injustice" you think she's been dealt with? H, you're doing it again....

 

The only injustice she's been dealt with has been done by you whom she trusted! And you're right! You can't fix the M alone! But there is no way on God's green earth will you FIX a marriage dealt with lies and deception!

 

What you should be worried about "fixing" is your CREDIBILITY!!! And if you do, you "might" actually regain her trust! Until then, you don't have much to go on but FEAR which you've been doing all along which hasn't worked.

 

But the reality is that the marriage was breaking down in part because she didn't see my needs as being very important - and there was no way I could get through to her on that.

So, NOW WHAT?!

 

Here's the other part the irks me, H... You keep bringing up or rehashing sh*ts that happened in the past. So, the question is, NOW WHAT? How can you get past that and move on?

 

And frankly, you are still justifying your A because she didn't meet your emotional needs. Do you know for a fact that you may not have meet her needs as well? Think about it....

 

I was left in the position of choosing between not having my needs met for the rest of my life, the A, or divorcing her.

This is the "Poor Me, it's all my W's fault" attitude that make readers, like me who just wanna egg you! I call this AJS = Affair Justification Syndrome!

 

Stop making excuses for your Affairs. There are NONE to consider when you decide to cheat. It's nothing but a selfish self indulgence motive. Yes, selfish! And don't even think about turning the table on this one H!

 

and I wish to God I hadn't. But I did.

You can't. It's done. Now what?

 

You've been plenty of good advice. A new day just started. Pick one.

[lighthouse]

H2T -

Here is the thing. You didn't offend me. You offended your wife, your children, yourself and, strangely enough, your OW (I know that she wasn't innocent in all this but I also have dated some pretty good liars and they can all talk - just like you must have).

That is the deal that you aren't getting. Offend me? Who cares? I am some chick that you talked to one night who responded to a post because she was trying to help you. I don't matter in your world (and that is cool) but your wife does, and if she doesn't your children do.

All I said was YOU need to go back and re-read your ENTIRE thread like I did and Flying did so you can see where we are coming from.

Then you can see why I am offended. You will probably be offended as well.

A couple - 3 or 4 - pages ago you were so upset. You felt like c*ap. You admitted that YOU had screwed up and couldn't imagine why your wife would even want you. Now you are back to making excuses and blaming others.

Here is it, as blunt as I can get without cussing:

Your wife may have not been the greatest emotional support. In fact, she may have been (although I doubt it) the absolute worst person in the world BUT what she didn't do was break her marriage vows, cheat on your children (because that is what you did), possibly bring an STD home to you or betray you.

Did she hurt you? Without a doubt!

Was she not all that a wife could or maybe should be (that sounds like an army ad)? Probably.

But she didn't let some lying guy come over and stick his d*ck in her. You went and stuck your d*ck in someone else, someone who, went she acted on her anger, you immediately called her a psycho and called the police on her.

That is as blunt and as crass I can get on this board but maybe you needed to hear it said just like that.

Again, go re-read your posts and then go read DazedNConfuseds - he is far more remorseful for nothing than you are for everything. Then come back and we can offend each other some more.

[whichwayisup]

Hey all...

 

It's not doing H2T any good digging up the past. This stuff has been dealt with on here, and right now what's more important is the NOW.

 

I don't think it's fair to say who's more remorseful, as the situations are different and so are the people. Dazed is nothing like H2T's wife, just like Dazed's wife is nothing like H2T. The whole relationship and dynamtic was different, so to compare WHO was more remorseful is kind of pointless.....

 

I understand people have their opinions, thoughts on H2T's situation, but it may not be helping by making him feel bad. The more positive and helpful suggestions we all give him to help fix his marriage is the goal here, not to shove in his face the OW, the past etc...

[serial muse]

Hi H2T. I've been reading along too, throughout your thread. Just so you know, I'm coming at this from the perspective of a former BS - it's been several years since my exH and I divorced, however, so many of the raw emotions I felt about what he did have calmed, and I've gained some perspective on what happened. In some ways, you do remind me of my ex - but he was a much more extreme version: he was never remorseful, and in fact exhibited a great deal of anger toward me in MC. He felt much of what you've felt - angry and neglected and like he'd been the silent partner for too long. I knew nothing of this, of course. But he spoke about me as you've spoken about your wife, at times, with resentment and fury and, most of all, frustration that I didn't see that he had been resentful and furious for so long.

 

So, I wanted to respond to your last post; perhaps I can give some insight into what your wife might be thinking.

 

It's only seeing her reaction to the A that I see that maybe she did love me after all - otherwise she'd be somewhat relieved or just pridefully indignant. Not heartbroken.

 

My exH said something similar, after seeing me in MC when I was completely broken down, a sobbing mess. I think he was utterly surprised. He never apologized or was willing to accept responsibility for his actions - which is why I eventually divorced him; he blamed it all on me - but I think he was truly shocked that I was so deeply hurt and heartbroken and, yes, ANGRY. He really thought I'd be relieved. That stunned me. Why in God's name would he think that?

 

The only answer I could come up with at the time was that had I been relieved rather than hurt, he would have sidestepped his guilt altogether. But I'm not sure that's the whole reason. True, you felt an estrangement that had gone on for years. And the affair itself highlights the fact that we never know people nearly as well as we think they do - particularly when they choose to keep secrets tucked away. But why assume that a desire to end the marriage is what she was hiding? That's an awfully big leap - and it does suggest a deep need to control the future, to see things coming, to be able to predict and get there "first". For control. I think that's definitely an issue you should think about.

 

My struggle right now is not just about her to forgiving me - it's also about not facing another 8 years of the same hurtful treatement in the future.

 

I recognize that most people here want me to accept all the blame for the state of the marriage that led to the A - but I don't think that would be constructive. While I have been apologizing profusley for my behavior - I don't want one from her. It's not about that. She's already forgiven in my mind. It more important than that.

 

Look, I think this is a good encapsulation of the issue. And I think you have every right to be concerned that, if you just accept blame for the A and that's that, it'll go on to be the same troubled marriage it was before.

 

But I think people are right to point out your need to control. Because you're blending two separate issues into one, and you want them resolved simultaneously. That's understandable, and human, but it isn't reasonable.

 

H2T, I'm noticing that you have a bit of a tendency to frame others' opinions in an "extreme" sort of way, a kind of straw man which you then knock down. e.g. we think it's ALL your fault, your W thinks it's ALL your fault, society thinks...etc.

 

First of all, I don't think anyone wants you to accept blame for the state of the marriage that led to the A. I think everyone believes, and accepts, that your marriage was deeply troubled due to the actions of both you and your wife. Instead, they want you to accept blame for the behavior with which you chose to deal with those troubles. It's a completely different issue.

 

Second, you DO NOT know whether your marriage will return to same old, same old, or even to something worse. (My guess? It won't. But I know it's hard to see that right now.) But you can, and will, deal with that in the future. That's also a completely different issue. The first step - getting over the affair, and truly, one or two months is not a long time. My exH and I divorced, and it took me two years to get over the hurt and pain. As most here have said, this rollercoaster will go on for a while. Understandably, you want it to be over now - you want assurances, and control over the situation - you want to be assured that she won't divorce you, that she loves you.

 

You don't get to have those assurances. Nothing is permanent. She's reeling from that exact same revelation right now, and you'll just have to reel along with her.

 

But try to keep in mind that just because you don't know the future doesn't mean it won't be happy. That's another thing to discuss in MC, or even IC, for you. Why this need to cover your bases?

 

I don't know if this can make any sense: But if the A and the poor state of the marriage rests only on my shoulders - my wife will view herself as having been wronged for no apparent reason. The injustice will be too hard to overcome for her and there will be only me left trying to rebuild parts of the marriage I can't fix alone. But the reality is that the marriage was breaking down in part because she didn't see my needs as being very important - and there was no way I could get through to her on that. Even she concedes that as being true. I was left in the position of choosing between not having my needs met for the rest of my life, the A, or divorcing her. I chose the A - and I wish to God I hadn't. But I did.

 

She's not going to think that she was wronged for no apparent reason. I can't speak for how she will act, but I can virtually guarantee that she will, on some level, assume some blame. So put that fear out of your mind. However, anger breeds anger. She is reacting to the anger you've expressed - and an affair is an EXTREMELY hostile act. Whether or not you're currently expressing anger - and it seems clear that you waver back and forth on that too - that one act of anger is going to fuel hers for a while.

 

But look - you also need to try to rephrase these thoughts in your head - the ones that still fuel your own anger, that are making you constantly want to reassert that the affair had merit.

 

I'll try to break it down:

 

Question: Was she meeting your needs?

Answer: A resounding NO.

Result? You were unhappy, expressed your unhappiness in a way you thought she'd grasp, lived with it and built up a deep, boiling store of resentment for her until finally you acted out.

 

BUT.

 

Question: WHY didn't she meet your needs?

 

THIS IS THE ONE YOU HAVE TO ADDRESS IN MC.

 

You have said, OVER AND OVER, that it's because she didn't think they were important. Do you REALLY think that's it? I don't know either of you, of course, but I sure as hell don't think that. Because MY HUSBAND SAID THE SAME EXACT THING. He believed it as surely as you do.

 

And he was 100% wrong. So I think I can speak from the BS perspective on this one.

 

Yes, the trouble was communication. Yes, our relationship suffered due to various life stuff that was happening. Yes, I even assumed responsibility for some of that. So don't worry about that. But the trouble is, he did not communicate to me the depth of his despair. He simply didn't. He didn't know how to talk to me, and I didn't know how to hear him.

 

I'm not saying he didn't try. I'm sure he thought, like you, that he did, time and again.

 

But I'm saying that we weren't hearing each other (I should point out, here, that it's not all about him - my needs were also definitely not being met, although I poured my energy into work rather than into another man). Bottom line, we should have gone to marriage counseling to talk it over and figure out if it was salvageable.

 

THAT IS WHAT MC IS FOR.

 

You have the chance to save your marriage by figuring out HOW she could have heard you. WHAT she wasn't getting from what you tried to tell her. And eventually, IF you can BOTH change the way you communicate so that neither of you feels frustrated. I can guarantee that she felt frustration, too, although you seem to think she was merrily coasting along in the marriage. No. No one "neglects" their partner because they're "happy". She was troubled, too.

 

Anyway, communication - on BOTH sides, not just hers - is the root of the issue, and that is what you'll need to focus on in MC. NOT this nonsense about she doesn't care about whether your needs are met. OF COURSE SHE DOES.

 

If you keep framing it that way in your mind, H2T, you will continue to breed anger. Which is only useful if you're planning to use that anger as yet another exit strategy.

[Hard2Think]

SM,

 

Thank you so much for this post. It's this kind of post that gives me the hope and strength to constinue.

 

Yes, you're right ... I'm seeking assurances far too soon and I really shouldn't. I haven't asked her for any of those reassurances, since I know that pressure is the very last thing she needs right now on top of everything else.

 

I know at an intellectual level that the A and our crappy marriage are separate issues - but I sometimes have a hard time digesting that at times. I first want to see if we can make it past the A issue. And for that I'm going to take my lumps - that's just the way it is. I'm being very careful not to express anger at her. In fact I don't feel so much anger anymore .. and I do fight the urge to remind her of what we were like before D-Day whenever she paints a rosy picture of that. We went out the other night and had a few drinks and both our defenses and guards were down. I'll refrain from that in the medium term.

 

I undestand your husband's anger. I'm suprised by one thing. You say he never told you about his feelings before the A? Or did he tell you, but you didn't think it was as important as it actually was? I'm especially curious about this part.

 

As to the surprise at your hurt .. I can understand. My wife did not act loving therefore I assumed she didn't love me. It was as simple as that. She hit me with verbal jabs all the time and seemd to hate spending time with me. The ultimate humiliation for me was one day when we were making love and I could tell this was "duty sex" by her attitude. When I touched her .. she got goose pimples. Not the good ones. She didn't like me french kissing her, she didn't want me touching her breasts because it "tickles". That combined with other events I already detailed in this thread painted a picture for me that showed I was just not someone she loved. Thus my surprise at her reaction. Maybe it was the same for your ex.

 

While in the A - I thought it had merit because of what I was going through. It made it all easier to take. The rejection from my wife was still very painful, but was less of a blow to my slef-esteem because I knew there was someone else who desperately wanted me in the way muy wife didn't.

 

Today - I don't see it that way. If I were to go back in time - I never would have had the A, even if you had told me I wouldn't get caught. I still feel wronged by my wife fr all those years, but I wish I hadn't used the A as a way to deal with it. I wish I had gone to see an IC instead to get some clarity.

 

Hi H2T. I've been reading along too, throughout your thread. Just so you know, I'm coming at this from the perspective of a former BS - it's been several years since my exH and I divorced, however, so many of the raw emotions I felt about what he did have calmed, and I've gained some perspective on what happened. In some ways, you do remind me of my ex - but he was a much more extreme version: he was never remorseful, and in fact exhibited a great deal of anger toward me in MC. He felt much of what you've felt - angry and neglected and like he'd been the silent partner for too long. I knew nothing of this, of course. But he spoke about me as you've spoken about your wife, at times, with resentment and fury and, most of all, frustration that I didn't see that he had been resentful and furious for so long.

 

So, I wanted to respond to your last post; perhaps I can give some insight into what your wife might be thinking.

 

 

 

My exH said something similar, after seeing me in MC when I was completely broken down, a sobbing mess. I think he was utterly surprised. He never apologized or was willing to accept responsibility for his actions - which is why I eventually divorced him; he blamed it all on me - but I think he was truly shocked that I was so deeply hurt and heartbroken and, yes, ANGRY. He really thought I'd be relieved. That stunned me. Why in God's name would he think that?

 

The only answer I could come up with at the time was that had I been relieved rather than hurt, he would have sidestepped his guilt altogether. But I'm not sure that's the whole reason. True, you felt an estrangement that had gone on for years. And the affair itself highlights the fact that we never know people nearly as well as we think they do - particularly when they choose to keep secrets tucked away. But why assume that a desire to end the marriage is what she was hiding? That's an awfully big leap - and it does suggest a deep need to control the future, to see things coming, to be able to predict and get there "first". For control. I think that's definitely an issue you should think about.

 

Look, I think this is a good encapsulation of the issue. And I think you have every right to be concerned that, if you just accept blame for the A and that's that, it'll go on to be the same troubled marriage it was before.

 

But I think people are right to point out your need to control. Because you're blending two separate issues into one, and you want them resolved simultaneously. That's understandable, and human, but it isn't reasonable.

 

H2T, I'm noticing that you have a bit of a tendency to frame others' opinions in an "extreme" sort of way, a kind of straw man which you then knock down. e.g. we think it's ALL your fault, your W thinks it's ALL your fault, society thinks...etc.

 

First of all, I don't think anyone wants you to accept blame for the state of the marriage that led to the A. I think everyone believes, and accepts, that your marriage was deeply troubled due to the actions of both you and your wife. Instead, they want you to accept blame for the behavior with which you chose to deal with those troubles. It's a completely different issue.

 

Second, you DO NOT know whether your marriage will return to same old, same old, or even to something worse. (My guess? It won't. But I know it's hard to see that right now.) But you can, and will, deal with that in the future. That's also a completely different issue. The first step - getting over the affair, and truly, one or two months is not a long time. My exH and I divorced, and it took me two years to get over the hurt and pain. As most here have said, this rollercoaster will go on for a while. Understandably, you want it to be over now - you want assurances, and control over the situation - you want to be assured that she won't divorce you, that she loves you.

 

You don't get to have those assurances. Nothing is permanent. She's reeling from that exact same revelation right now, and you'll just have to reel along with her.

 

But try to keep in mind that just because you don't know the future doesn't mean it won't be happy. That's another thing to discuss in MC, or even IC, for you. Why this need to cover your bases?

 

 

 

She's not going to think that she was wronged for no apparent reason. I can't speak for how she will act, but I can virtually guarantee that she will, on some level, assume some blame. So put that fear out of your mind. However, anger breeds anger. She is reacting to the anger you've expressed - and an affair is an EXTREMELY hostile act. Whether or not you're currently expressing anger - and it seems clear that you waver back and forth on that too - that one act of anger is going to fuel hers for a while.

 

But look - you also need to try to rephrase these thoughts in your head - the ones that still fuel your own anger, that are making you constantly want to reassert that the affair had merit.

 

I'll try to break it down:

 

Question: Was she meeting your needs?

Answer: A resounding NO.

Result? You were unhappy, expressed your unhappiness in a way you thought she'd grasp, lived with it and built up a deep, boiling store of resentment for her until finally you acted out.

 

BUT.

 

Question: WHY didn't she meet your needs?

 

THIS IS THE ONE YOU HAVE TO ADDRESS IN MC.

 

You have said, OVER AND OVER, that it's because she didn't think they were important. Do you REALLY think that's it? I don't know either of you, of course, but I sure as hell don't think that. Because MY HUSBAND SAID THE SAME EXACT THING. He believed it as surely as you do.

 

And he was 100% wrong. So I think I can speak from the BS perspective on this one.

 

Yes, the trouble was communication. Yes, our relationship suffered due to various life stuff that was happening. Yes, I even assumed responsibility for some of that. So don't worry about that. But the trouble is, he did not communicate to me the depth of his despair. He simply didn't. He didn't know how to talk to me, and I didn't know how to hear him.

 

I'm not saying he didn't try. I'm sure he thought, like you, that he did, time and again.

 

But I'm saying that we weren't hearing each other (I should point out, here, that it's not all about him - my needs were also definitely not being met, although I poured my energy into work rather than into another man). Bottom line, we should have gone to marriage counseling to talk it over and figure out if it was salvageable.

 

THAT IS WHAT MC IS FOR.

 

You have the chance to save your marriage by figuring out HOW she could have heard you. WHAT she wasn't getting from what you tried to tell her. And eventually, IF you can BOTH change the way you communicate so that neither of you feels frustrated. I can guarantee that she felt frustration, too, although you seem to think she was merrily coasting along in the marriage. No. No one "neglects" their partner because they're "happy". She was troubled, too.

 

Anyway, communication - on BOTH sides, not just hers - is the root of the issue, and that is what you'll need to focus on in MC. NOT this nonsense about she doesn't care about whether your needs are met. OF COURSE SHE DOES.

 

If you keep framing it that way in your mind, H2T, you will continue to breed anger. Which is only useful if you're planning to use that anger as yet another exit strategy.

[lighthouse]

Muse -

thank you for saying in a nice way what I was so frustrated I could not come up with the words to say.

I am still frustrated so I appreciate so much you saying what I am apparently incapable of.

Lighthouse

[serial muse]

I'm happy to help any way I can - truly, I'm aching right along with both of you, and I do hope that you can both find some peace eventually.

 

In the meantime - you asked about whether he expressed his anger. You have to understand that I'm thinking back several years now, so it's a bit hard to remember. And he's not good at expressing himself, which was a source of difficulty in the marriage. I truly think that he thought he made it clear - in ways that HE would have interpreted as crystal clear - but to me, it was clear as mud.

 

I think that someone mentioned the Five Love Languages book a while back. I think that book has a very simple, profound message, and a lot of it has to do with assumptions. It's certainly made me think. Both our needs weren't being met in the marriage, because we didn't know how to communicate love to each other. For him, it was physical touch. For me, it was verbal reassurance. He didn't give me what I needed, which I see now made me withdraw. And vice versa. We simply didn't know how to communicate our love to each other, and he interpreted that as I didn't love him. I interpreted it as something "to be dealt with" at some point, possibly in marriage counseling - the difficulty was that I was in the throes of my thesis defense at the time, so yes, I was incredibly distracted. A fact he eventually acknowledged, grudgingly. But I also acknowledge that MC should have happened sooner. Prioritizing should have happened sooner. Bizarrely, neither of us thought to go, and none of our friends suggested it - many of them thought we were an awesome couple and very happy together. Which goes to show how little of the angst was being translated in our daily lives - whatever was going on inside our heads. You see?

 

The problem is, and has always been, about assumptions. He assumed I'd understand, because he was saying things - or more importantly, behaving in ways - that meant something specific to him. But they didn't mean the same things to me. And I suppose I was doing the same.

 

If you haven't already, read the Five Love Languages. It was certainly a revelation to me, and I think about it constantly now, when I look at all of my relationships - including my friends and family. It's really all about empathy and recognizing that what's obvious to you is rarely obvious to others. You can talk till you're blue in the face, but if she's looking for some other, perhaps nonverbal, signs of love, it's not going to make a bit of difference. And vice versa.

 

One exercise that might be useful for you two in MC is for you to think about about signs of love - HER signs of love - that she might have given to you over the years. (Rather than focusing on the absence of certain signs of love you so desperately wanted.) How does she express love? That might reassure you about whether she cares - and if she eventually understands that you need different sorts of signs, she might be able to reassure you in a way that's more immediately comforting to you. But that might be a bit farther down the road.

 

I know you've taken a beating here, H2T - sometimes deservedly, sometimes not. But hang in there - we're pulling for you, we really are. Under it all, we just want people to be happy. I've been angry with you at times - transference I'm sure - but I really do wish you the best.