Proposal and Flirting

[john2776]

After a perfect day on Wednesday I proposed to my GF (25yrs old and 1 year together) and she said yes! We had a great holiday over 6 days in Sydney. On Saturday night we ended up having a big talk though as she hadn't told anyone yet about our engagement. I thought this was a bit strange as I could not understand why she would not want to immediately tell her parents. So Sunday night she phoned them, her parents were so happy, and then she was much happier also.

 

Last night we were sitting in the airport eating some food and having a beer. She said to me that she had made contact with a pilot in the plane outside the window (behind me). I looked around and saw a huge grin on his face and him mouthing something, so I then turned the other way around to look at my GF to see her doing the tounge over the lips flirt thing. She happens to be very good at flirting in this manor (I'd previously only seen this manouvre directed at me and it normally leads to me getting pretty horny) and was totally shocked to see her doing this to the pilot in the plane.

 

When I think about it calmly its obvious that this kind of flirting is completely harmless - its impossible for it to lead anywhere, BUT, I can't understand why my GF feels the need to flirt with a guy only a few days after we are engaged to marry!!!???

 

Sometimes I think I think too much. Relationships are so bloody hard.

[lovestruck234]

Awwww, so she said yes!!! Yay!! I'm so happy for you!!!!

 

Hmmm....that's kinda not cool what she did to that pilot. Who does that?

 

I would tell her you're not comfortable with what she did and she would appreciate if she didn't do it again. Cos by the sounds of things, you haven't done anything like that to some random pilot!!! No you're not thinking too much, you have every righ to feel this way...

 

Let me ask you, do you trust this girl? Cos the few encouters you've had in regards to her flirting are kinda unacceptable. Like when she started that new job and her boss she told you was "beautiful"? Ahem. She seems to have quite a pattern of this flirting business....

 

Yep, definitley talk to her about it. Uh uh. Not cool. I would be pretty bloody pissed off if my bf was doing something like that. (Lol, well he sucks at flirting, so I doubt he would) but still!!!

[Bryanp]

What a huge red flag this is. How do you think she would be feeling if you were licking your tongue and responding the same way from a female flight attendant? She has no problem flirting with another man while she is sitting next to you a couple of days after proposing marriage to you? Take a real close look because this is going to be your future. Clearly she did not care how disrespectful this was to you. I cannot believe you just sat and said nothing to her about this? Unbelievable. This is really bad news. I strongly suggest you get a pre-nup before you get married.

[john2776]

Awwww, so she said yes!!! Yay!! I'm so happy for you!!!!

 

Hmmm....that's kinda not cool what she did to that pilot. Who does that?

 

Let me ask you, do you trust this girl?

 

Thanks I'm totally thrilled with the proposal part! No it certainly wasn't cool what she did, and it didn't make me feel at all good. If I am honest, I can't say I fully trust her anymore. I don't think she is a cheater, but I don't trust her judgement very much when it comes to guys. It is so frustrating because in all other areas we have no problems, but with guys there always seems to be trouble.

 

(How was your 6 month anniversary on Wed btw? Good that he is not a flirt!)

[john2776]

What a huge red flag this is. How do you think she would be feeling if you were licking your tongue and responding the same way from a female flight attendant? She has no problem flirting with another man while she is sitting next to you a couple of days after proposing marriage to you? Take a real close look because this is going to be your future. Clearly she did not care how disrespectful this was to you. I cannot believe you just sat and said nothing to her about this? Unbelievable. This is really bad news. I strongly suggest you get a pre-nup before you get married.

Yes it is a red flag. A huge one as you say. In the moment it happened I was a bit stunned and wasn't sure what to say as I tend to overreact to things like this. So I thought about it for a few minutes before concluding that I was very pissed off and with good reason. So I said to her "I would appreciate it if you do not flirt in front of me like that." She then became defensive and said that she hadn't been flirting and asked me what I saw. I practically exploded (certainly did on the inside) when she pretended that nothing at all had happened. About 30 minutes later when we were on the plane she finally agreed that doing what she did with her tongue on her lips is flirting. Her excuse was that she did not intend to flirt, but was just responding to what the pilot asked her to do. My thought was "So if he asked you to sleep with him will you do that to??"

 

Actually I am really suprised that you two both think it was unacceptable. I thought I was just overreacting to something that was harmless. A pre-nup has crossed my mind. She has nothing and I'm doing quite ok - I would hate her to end the marriage and then walk away with half of everything....

[Spectre]

What did the pilot ask her to do that would cause her to do that?

 

See, what would concern me is that she's naive enough to think this is ok behavior. Thats the red flag for me, cuz then I think about "what else does she think is ok that isnt?"

 

Not only did she wait a week to tell anyone you were engaged, but flirted with some dude in front of you? Definitely get a prenup, and I'd definitely watch her actions to see if you should go through with this marriage, she doesnt sound like someone I'd like to call my wife.

 

Also, how did she make contact with this pilot? She see's him through a window and decides to get flirty with him? Thats a bit suspicious to me.

[Cecelius]

I have to say, very frankly, that I think you validated her behavior too early in the relationship with the proposal -- some people have an excellent way of assuming that when you propose, you have embraced them body and soul (translation from womenspeak/lazydudespeak: they knew what they were getting into and now they are stuck...).

 

You're not going to be able to rationally end this crap without her thinking you are controlling, jealous, insecure, etc., unless you handle it the right way. Calmly, cooly explain to her, like she is an inteligent child, that there are some things that are okay, and some that are not. Do not get mad, or excited or otherwise -- make sure she knows that if she is not acting appropriately, you will walk, whether 2 weeks from now or 20 years from now.

 

But you need to decide if that's the kind of thing you really want to have with her. She flirted, like that, because she likes how it makes her feel -- which means she is somewhat likely to do ANYTHING so long as she likes how it makes her feel. Is that what you want to sign up for now?

[lovestruck234]

(How was your 6 month anniversary on Wed btw? Good that he is not a flirt!)

 

It was ok. Not what I had planned for, exactly. Parts of it were perfect, but other parts were pretty sucky. Let's just say I ended up in tears at the end of the night. We had a talk (which is sorted out now by the way) but yeah....other than the ****ty ending to a perfectly good night, all is well. Lol no it was good that we got sorted out what we talked about, though...

 

Back to you, I am in pure agreeance with Spectre and Cecelius. Watch out john, this is not someone I would like to be with for "eternity" if this is how her behaviour is going to be!! Exactly what Spectre said, she is naive enough to think its acceptable and like you said when you though "well, if he asked you to sleep with him you would do it?" You just answered your own question. I'd say she wouldn't have second thoughts on it. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

I don't know this girl, but from reading this post and previous posts you've written about this girl, she's quite the sus type. Just from reading about her, I don't trust her. And I don't think you should have to degrade yourself to that level to keep letting it happen, either. Just think carefully about what you've gotten into. Don't fall any further because one day it will be too late and you'll have wished you had let her go before it...

 

If you love her, you'll want to make it work, but if she loves you, she would of 1) not have doen that to that pilot and 2) would want to make it work too. By the sounds of things, she doesn't contribute much into the relationship whereas you sound like you dive head first and have thrown everything into it....

 

 

Just have a little think about it is all I'm saying...

[john2776]

What did the pilot ask her to do that would cause her to do that?

I didn't see it all from start to finish, but her story is that she was waving to him and smiling. She was eating a laksa soup and the pilot made a motion with his hands for her to stir the soup, put it in her mouth and then lick the soup from her lips. I can assure you that the way she ran her tongue over her lips had nothing to do with eating soup! As I said before she is particular good at this manouvre...

 

See, what would concern me is that she's naive enough to think this is ok behavior. Thats the red flag for me, cuz then I think about "what else does she think is ok that isnt?"

Yes this is exactly my thought. It wasn't the incident itself so much, but the ramifications of the apparent naiveity. When we talked about it I tried not to focus to much on what happened with the pilot, but to talk about what we both thought was acceptable behaviour and what kind of flirting is ok and what isn't just to see if we are on the same wavelength or not. She seems to get it and said all the correct things.

 

I had a girlfriend a few years ago who had really bad social behavior and we constantly had fights about stuff she did. In the end I just said enough and ended it because there was simply too many little things that I seemed to need to tell her about. I don't want to teach someone what is appropriate, I expect a partner to behave appropriate (and I have had many GF's who were perfect in this way).

 

My now fiance has never made the same mistake twice so far and always understands when I point out something which isn't really on. But it does concern me that there have been a few little incidents so far. What worries me more, is what is it that I don't know about...

 

Maybe I should start on the wedding invitiation list and see how many of her ex boyfriends and lovers she wants to invite along? <sigh>

[crazy_grl]

I didn't see it all from start to finish, but her story is that she was waving to him and smiling. She was eating a laksa soup and the pilot made a motion with his hands for her to stir the soup, put it in her mouth and then lick the soup from her lips. I can assure you that the way she ran her tongue over her lips had nothing to do with eating soup! As I said before she is particular good at this manouvre...

 

Did he communicate this in sign language? That seems like some pretty detailed instructions to give someone from across a room. To me, that exchange actually seems worse than if she had just done the tongue over the lips thing. Exactly how good of friends did she make with the pilot for him to think he could instruct her to do sexy things for him?

 

Quite frankly, I think your girl is probably lying.

[john2776]

I have to say, very frankly, that I think you validated her behavior too early in the relationship with the proposal

Yes it is possible that she may see it that way, but in my defence she hadn't flirted in front of me until after the proposal. I never expected this.

 

You're not going to be able to rationally end this crap without her thinking you are controlling, jealous, insecure, etc., unless you handle it the right way -- make sure she knows that if she is not acting appropriately, you will walk, whether 2 weeks from now or 20 years from now.

I understand what you are saying and agree, but its easier said than done. I never like confrontation and certainly don't want to be controlling jealous or insecure but of course when I talk to her about these things I feel like I am - which I hate. How on earth do I tell her that I will walk in the future if she acts badly without it sounding threatening and controlling?? The other problem here is that as we are both christian we believe in forgiveness. It's not very forgiveing to say if you stuff up in the future I am going to dump you is it??

 

She flirted, like that, because she likes how it makes her feel -- which means she is somewhat likely to do ANYTHING so long as she likes how it makes her feel.

Yes she obviously does like the way it makes her feel. But how do you know (or why do you suspect) that she would do ANYTHING as long as it makes her feel good? If she loves me (and I believe she genuinely does) shouldn't she put our relationship above instant gratification from others?

[john2776]

I ended up in tears at the end of the night.

Oh that is so not fair. That just should not happen on a special night. Your 12 month celebration will be better!

 

Watch out john...I don't trust her...think carefully about what you've gotten into...one day it will be too late...Just have a little think about it...

I hear you. The good news is that the wedding isn't planned for another 12 months. So I have plenty of time to freak out, spit the dummy, and dump her if it all turns bad. Being the eternal optimist I am hoping that the worst is over and that its going to be a year of sunshine and happiness! We move to Brisbane in 2 weeks so we have plenty of stress and fun ahead. I've asked her out tonight to go so some dodgy pub that has a special backpackers night on where the backpacker girls paint their national flags on their breasts and parade around in a competition. The place should be full of loser sleazy guys so I will be interested to see how she reacts to them. We both want to catch up with a friend of hers from her last job and its one of the last nights we will have free before we move so it all fits nicely... I totally intrigued as to how she reacts around others now - 95% of the time we are alone or with church people or with my sports buddies at the race track, so I really want to see her social side more - and hope that she isn't addicted to flirting.

[john2776]

Did he communicate this in sign language? That seems like some pretty detailed instructions to give someone from across a room. To me, that exchange actually seems worse than if she had just done the tongue over the lips thing. Exactly how good of friends did she make with the pilot for him to think he could instruct her to do sexy things for him?

 

Quite frankly, I think your girl is probably lying.

I did wonder about this actually. I was thinking to myself "if I was sitting in that plane, how on earth would I be able to successfully get a girl sitting inside the terminal to put soup in her mouth and then lick her lips in a flirtatious manor?" Quite frankly I don't think I have the skills to pull that off! Also, what made him think that he might be able to do it? My guess is that she must have signalled to him in some way that she was up for the game. Whatever that exchance of hand manouvres and body language was - it is not within my ability to imagine or to have done.

 

Now that you mention the above I am finding the whole incident even more bizzare.

[norajane]

I did wonder about this actually. I was thinking to myself "if I was sitting in that plane, how on earth would I be able to successfully get a girl sitting inside the terminal to put soup in her mouth and then lick her lips in a flirtatious manor?" Quite frankly I don't think I have the skills to pull that off! Also, what made him think that he might be able to do it? My guess is that she must have signalled to him in some way that she was up for the game. Whatever that exchance of hand manouvres and body language was - it is not within my ability to imagine or to have done.

 

Now that you mention the above I am finding the whole incident even more bizzare.

 

And you were sitting right next to her the whole time and noticed nothing until she told you she had 'made contact' with the pilot?

 

I just keep thinking she's very young or inexperienced with men. Otherwise, she would know that outright flirtation isn't cool. The fact that she drew your attention to it is what makes me think she is naiive about it. Has she dated much? Had any serious relationships?

 

It's good that you go out together in a social setting more often. I think there's a lot more you need to know about your lady before marriage.

[lovestruck234]

And you were sitting right next to her the whole time and noticed nothing until she told you she had 'made contact' with the pilot?

 

 

That's what I'm finding the most bizzare!!

[john2776]

And you were sitting right next to her the whole time and noticed nothing until she told you she had 'made contact' with the pilot?

ok - Our chairs had the backs to the glass window which is where the plane was. I was sitting on her left and watching the simpsons on the big tv on my left. She was on my right and watching the tv and the plane. The whole time we were there she was watching the plane, and occasionally said things like "Do you think you get stressed out before take off if you were a pilot?", and "Hey - I think that's going to be our plane!" etc etc. So I was aware that she was watching the plane. But I wasn't watching the plane and she wasn't it my line of sight either.

 

The fact that she drew your attention to it is what makes me think she is naiive about it.

Yes. This is a big point. It shows to me that she really was not aware that her behavior was out of line. Which I do find strange of course, but also shows that she wasn't deliberately doing something to piss me off.

 

Has she dated much? Had any serious relationships?

Yes and no. Dating wise I think she has kissed and slept and had oral sex with a lot of guys, mainly friends. Because these were 'friends' she seems to have never understood what happens in relationships. I imagine that she finds the way it works in casual sex relationships to be more normal in her experience. She is still friends with these guys and obviously they have no problem being with any of her other friends or even their own friends. I'm obviously quite different to this mentality. Serious relationships - not really. One boyfriend from teenage years which lasted a long time, and she was still sleeping with him only weeks before she became my girlfriend. (I did not know this until recently). One other boyfriend she had for about 1 year in a long distance relationship (different countries), so I doubt she picked up much experience there. She also told me in the week before she broke up with him she cheated on him with one of her 'friends' and never told the guy about it.

[crazy_grl]

I really think she knew exactly what she was doing and didn't think you'd see her because your back was turned. Whether or not the pilot told her to do it, I'm not sure, but it doesn't really matter. I think she knew it was flirting and inappropriate. She just didn't expect to get caught.

 

Now she's playing naive, because it's easier to forgive a naive girl than a trampy one who flirts right in front of her fiance.

 

Be careful with this one, and don't be afraid to call off or postpone the wedding if she still gives you reason for doubt.

[konfused]

You get what you tolerate. I've found it's better to draw the line in the sand well before the relationship. That way you'll never have that lovey-dovey feeling messing with your boundries. Remember, women come and go, but character stays with you forever.

[lovestruck234]

Remember, women come and go, but character stays with you forever.

 

That's exactly right, no matter how hard you try, you can NEVER change a person. You may think you have or can, but the truth is, old habits die hard....

[CGrace44]

I think that if she told you that she made contact with the pilot that she might just be trying to get a reaction out of you. I read once when my friend was getting married that pre-wedding jitters can sometimes make a girl/guy want to experiment with 'what if" questions. Like, What if some other guy hit on me? What if I called another man attractive in front of him? She may just be trying to figure out if you will be more protective or jealous as her husband. Confront her and straight out ask her why she did that.

[john2776]

In amongst other things, this topic came up again last night when I was speaking to her. She says that she agrees with me that she should not have done it, but that it was never her intention to flirt with the guy, and if it wasn't her intention then how can it be considered flirting? Basically the topic has been talked to death with her and I'm not really any the wiser about it. Personally I do think she tries to test the limits sometimes. Im not sure if she does it consciously or not...

 

We also talked on the weekend about cheating and she ended up crying all of a sudden and when I asked her why she said that it was because she doesn't trust herself. She cannot be sure that she would never do anything wrong because she knows that sometimes she just likes to please other people and feels obligated to even though she doesn't want to.

[CGrace44]

Well, no one can be sure that they would never do anything wrong. When you are married you are going to have problems. Every relationship takes work and I can guarantee that sometime in your marriage you will both make a mistake. She also needs to be able to be strong so that she can trust herself. Because there really is no way for you to trust her if she can't trust herself. To trust someone is to depend on them and she needs to know that you are depending on her to be strong. You guys are becoming a partnership. She needs to think first about herself, second about you, and then worry about all the other people that she might feel obligated to please.

 

As for the pilot thing- if you talked to her about it and she claims it wasn't on purpose then the best you can do is drop it and hope for the best. I wish I could give you better advice. Encourage her to keep talking to you about her fears because if she was crying about it then it was probably something that was really bothering her and probably is still bothering her. Good luck!

[john2776]

Strangely enough (for me at least) the discussion about her not trusting herself was a very positive discussion for both of us. We both felt much better afterwards and were both highly suprised that the whole conversation which must have lasted an hour was done without anyone getting angry or anything (unusual for us). That she was able to talk about it actually increased my trust of her, which seems kind of weird.

 

The flirting thing is a closed topic between us niow. It only came up again because we both looked at each other last night and wondered why we are fighting so much lately (about 1 day a week). In discussing it again I realised that it was not as resolved as I thought - but to some extent I think I need to chill out a bit more with the way she is. The fact is light flirting is part of her character. She knows it doesn't make me happy to see it and she will attempt to avoid it.

[kulyok]

John, your girfriend sounds very much like me from a few years ago. Especially this:

 

We also talked on the weekend about cheating and she ended up crying all of a sudden and when I asked her why she said that it was because she doesn't trust herself. She cannot be sure that she would never do anything wrong because she knows that sometimes she just likes to please other people and feels obligated to even though she doesn't want to.

 

It is a very difficult problem, when you want to be liked and likeable, and have a very low self-esteem. It indeed can lead to trouble.

 

I do not think individual councelling will help here(if anything, it will make her feel worse, because it's very, very likely she will think "Oh, I am so bad now that I need councelling, am I?"), but some training like EST, Lifespring or NLP will. She will become a much better and stable person. It certainly helped me a lot.

 

The side effect is, she will understand much better what she wants, and that might include breaking up with you. But then you both will be better off in the long run.

 

If she really loves you, however, she will become more stable and mature _and_ will respect your needs - you will forget about cheating and flirting forever.

 

I also wouldn't bring up prenups before she's got some help, but that's just me. I mean, if I learnt that a man I was about to marry would be willing to throw me out with nothing after the divorce(and possibly with kids), I'd be really hurt.

[john2776]

I do not think individual councelling will help here(if anything, it will make her feel worse, because it's very, very likely she will think "Oh, I am so bad now that I need councelling, am I?"), but some training like EST, Lifespring or NLP will. She will become a much better and stable person. It certainly helped me a lot.

For a whole bunch of reasons I don't believe individual councilling is suitable for her - so I agree with you. I have no idea what EST, Lifespring or NLP is??? What she would like to do is a bible study course with me. Do you think this could be of benefit?