Fear of Intimacy/Commitment - can we make it work?

[Bemused]

I guess my other thread was too long to be read, as I supsected it might. It's either that, or no one has any opinions.

 

So, let me try again:

 

My guy and I have known each other almost 20 years; we've dated off and on during some of that time, mostly off. Things never did quite work out for various reasons, but we generally remained friends and that friendship has grown over the years.

 

About 18 months ago, we started seeing each other again. Since we got together this time, everything has been wonderful. We are both very loving and affectionate, we see each other often, and I finally have it through my head that he does love me, and he’s finally getting it that he’s in love with me. Our sex life is fantastic, and the intimacy is more than either of us have felt with anyone in a long, long time.

 

So why am I posting? Because we’re pushing 40 now, and he still calls love the L word. He’s still a ‘forever is a very long time’ guy…even though it’s not as long as it used to be! I have my own fear of intimacy issues, so I feel like we’re in a catch 22.

 

For him to be comfortable with forever, he needs to see/feel the deepest intimacy with me. For me to be comfortable with that kind of intimacy, I need a commitment from him. I’m afraid to open up completely and give everything of myself for fear of getting hurt; I need a level of commitment that’s more than he can give without the complete intimacy.

 

Is there any hope for us?

[john2776]

From what you have written it seems to me that basically you have a good relationship that you wish could go to another level. I'm the type of guy who likes the concept of marriage and committment and I want my partner to be the same. But in your situation it doesn't sound as though it is progressing. Is it actually causing problems? Because if its not, maybe you can learn to accept that a marriage may never happen? Or that it might happen one day when you least expect it, quite a few years down the road from now. What is the most important to you - this man or being married to this man. If it really is a good relationship then stick with it, and never give up hope.

[waitingforlove]

Hi Bemused,

You said he needed to feel "complete intimacy" in order to make a commitment to you, but what does that really mean? Do you know how you can "prove" to him that you are "intimate enough"? You said "the intimacy is more than either of us have felt with anyone in a long, long time," so why isn't that enough for him?

[Craig]

For him to be comfortable with forever, he needs to see/feel the deepest intimacy with me. For me to be comfortable with that kind of intimacy, I need a commitment from him. I’m afraid to open up completely and give everything of myself for fear of getting hurt; I need a level of commitment that’s more than he can give without the complete intimacy.

If you are talking about marriage when you say commitment here is my answer

 

Well what better time to explore intimacy AND compatibility than before marriage??? I mean you guys have already been sexual and seem to have sexual compatibility.

 

Why not just go for this intimacy you talk about without having the artificial and self imposed requirement of a piece of paper called a marriage license?

 

Marriage, true marriage, is something that occurs in the heart not on piece of paper.

 

If you are not talking about marriage when you say commitment, tell us what you mean by 'commitment?'

[silentcharon]

Just don't get married, in my opinion. I would rather be with someone who I love for who he is, than love him for being married to him. What the others are trying to point out is:

 

Do you love him, because he's your partner, your best friend, your lover?

 

If your answer is yes, you shouldn't have to worry about a piece of paper stating you are married to him.

[Bemused]

But in your situation it doesn't sound as though it is progressing. Is it actually causing problems? Because if its not, maybe you can learn to accept that a marriage may never happen? Or that it might happen one day when you least expect it, quite a few years down the road from now. What is the most important to you - this man or being married to this man. If it really is a good relationship then stick with it, and never give up hope.

 

We've been progressing quite a bit, especially when I compare it to our attempts at a relationship in the past. The affection and intimacy are the most noticeable - the touches, the little kisses, the holding hands everywhere we go - that's not something we had been doing before, and it seems to grow stronger and stronger. The emotional intimacy has also emerged an developed over time. As friends we had confided in each other quite a bit, but now it's even more present, especially during sex. It kinda takes my breath away.

 

It's a great relationship, and I understand your point: this man is definitely more important to me than just being married to someone. I've dated others that I could have married just to be married, but had no desire to do that. I want to be married to him, though.

 

Hi Bemused,

You said he needed to feel "complete intimacy" in order to make a commitment to you, but what does that really mean? Do you know how you can "prove" to him that you are "intimate enough"? You said "the intimacy is more than either of us have felt with anyone in a long, long time," so why isn't that enough for him?

 

Complete intimacy is my term for it, for lack of a better word. What I mean is, I think he needs that kind of utter comfort and security that comes from knowing I accept everything about who he is, I'm not trying to change him, I will be happy come what may, that we are fully capable of handling each other even when at our worst. It's intimacy that holds nothing back, no reservation, 100% certainty that, somewhere down the road, we wouldn't think we had made a mistake getting married and feel stuck in a bad relationship.

 

The first part - the acceptance - that's easy in that I do accept who he is. We've known each other a long time, so it's not like there are any huge suprises about who we are. It's also hard sometimes, because I think he's afraid that if I'm not always happy with something he's done or not done, that it will taint my view of him as a whole. It could be that Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus thing where I might express disappointment in something, and he takes it as a criticism that's much bigger than I intend it. That's something we can work on over time to understand each other better.

 

The second part, well, are there ever any guarantees? I don't know that 100% certainty is possible.

 

If you are talking about marriage when you say commitment here is my answer

 

Well what better time to explore intimacy AND compatibility than before marriage??? I mean you guys have already been sexual and seem to have sexual compatibility.

 

Why not just go for this intimacy you talk about without having the artificial and self imposed requirement of a piece of paper called a marriage license?

 

Marriage, true marriage, is something that occurs in the heart not on piece of paper.

 

If you are not talking about marriage when you say commitment, tell us what you mean by 'commitment?'

 

I'm talking about both commitment and marriage. Marriage is not just a piece of paper to me, or to him. It's a deep personal commitment to be with each other and to the relationship. It's a decision to build a future together. It's a vow to stay and work things through even when that's the hardest thing to do, even if you aren't feeling like it right then, because you have something together that's worthwhile.

 

Of course you can have the commitment without the marriage license. However, marriage is the most commited commitment we can make to each other, and see that as necessary to build a future together. We aren't the types to move in together without being married, so anything less than marriage implies that we aren't committed to that future. From a practical standpoint, it means we hold back from making decisions about our lives together and make them separately, everything from job locations to buying homes separately to pretty much every other large life decision. We make those choices and hope they work out rather than making them together so that we try to make it work out for relationship.

 

Just don't get married, in my opinion. I would rather be with someone who I love for who he is, than love him for being married to him. What the others are trying to point out is:

 

Do you love him, because he's your partner, your best friend, your lover?

 

If your answer is yes, you shouldn't have to worry about a piece of paper stating you are married to him.

 

Without the commitment, and without the piece of paper, I am not capable of thinking we intend to build a future together...

 

 

Thanks to all who have replied! This is helping me clarify my thoughts.

[norajane]

Give each other a little time, sweets. It sounds like you're on the right track after all those years. Some people just take longer. If this starts to make you uneasy or cause problems in your relationship, I don't think it's out of line for you to ask what he has in mind for your future. Maybe you don't have to propose as I suggested in your other thread, but you can always ask what his thoughts are about forever with you.

[Bemused]

Give each other a little time, sweets. It sounds like you're on the right track after all those years. Some people just take longer. If this starts to make you uneasy or cause problems in your relationship, I don't think it's out of line for you to ask what he has in mind for your future. Maybe you don't have to propose as I suggested in your other thread, but you can always ask what his thoughts are about forever with you.

 

I don't want him to feel pressured by bringing up marriage.

 

I want him to come to that on his own, to want to commit because he wants me in his life forever, to be eager for it because he can't imagine his future without me...

[norajane]

I don't want him to feel pressured by bringing up marriage.

 

I want him to come to that on his own, to want to commit because he wants me in his life forever, to be eager for it because he can't imagine his future without me...

 

That's a very romantic view...nothing wrong with that.

 

ARe you sure he'd feel pressured if you brought up marriage? He's a big boy now, and with the way your relationship is, surely he's given it some consideration. Maybe you could ask in a general way what his thoughts are about marriage in commitment and whether he wants that in his life, whether he sees that for himself?

[Bemused]

I did it! I told him I wanted us to get married.

 

We were at my place just having a good time together with some wine and food and music. I was feeling very happy and relaxed, and I can't even remember exactly why, but when we happened to be in the bathroom (!) I just told him I wanted us to get married. That I knew he'd only had 20 years to get to know me better (), so give it some thought, but I didn't need 20 more years to know I wanted to be with him. I kissed him and then changed the subject.

 

He laughed at the 20 years part and gave me a hug, but otherwise didn't say anything.

 

The rest of the night was great (fantastic sex!) and neither of us brought up the M-word again. I made brunch the next morning while he worked on fixing my phone lines, and then we watched the shuttle feed from space on the internet while we ate. A little more sex and then he was off to his place.

 

So maybe the bathroom wasn't the most romantic place to bring it up, but I did it!

 

ARe you sure he'd feel pressured if you brought up marriage? He's a big boy now, and with the way your relationship is, surely he's given it some consideration.

 

He didn't act like he felt pressured. Maybe he has been thinking about it? I don't know. I hope I didn't freak him out.

[norajane]

Good for you!

 

It doesn't sound like he freaked out at all. I'll bet you won't have to wait too long for the proposal.

[Bemused]

I wasn't expecting an answer so soon – frankly, I was afraid he'd take another 20 years to think - but last night he said:

 

I've been thinking A LOT about what you said recently - yes, the 'M' word - and trying to see how I can merge that idea with what I want out of life. No matter how I look at it, I can get my head to go there, but I can't get it to stay there - and that has nothing to do with you. Believe me, if marriage was something I wanted, you'd know about it. Yes, I've had 20 years to make up my mind - but all I come up with is that IF I wanted to be family-guy, I know who I’d want.

It never occurred to me that he'd choose email to say this. He's so strong about everything else except when it comes to talking about his feelings. But it's soooo frustrating that he wasn't here with me to discuss it. Maybe he was afraid to see my sad little face when he told me. I almost don't know if I’m more disappointed about what he said, or that he couldn't bear to be with me when he said it. Way to not share an important moment with me, dude.

 

I replied to his email. I told him that he didn't have to be afraid to talk to me about his feelings. That I love him as he is and that I want to understand better. That I don't know what he wants out of life that he can't merge with the idea of marriage. That I don't know what his concerns are about marriage because we haven't talked about them. Maybe he’ll explain it to me tonight if he calls, if he calls. Or maybe he’ll crawl back into his Mars cave. I really have no idea.

 

I know he's thought about it. I know he's definite. He's not one to change his mind after making a decision. So I need to decide if I want to stick around anyway because we love each other, or if I can't merge the idea of never marrying with what I want out of life. Since I don't know how marriage would prevent him from getting what he wants out of life, I also don't know if a committed relationship without marriage would also prevent him from being happy. Or prevent me from being happy.

 

Unlike him, I need to talk this through with him. And I can't. You know why? Because he sent an email, that’s why.

 

Because he chose to not talk with me, and is still hiding from me.

 

I'm so unhappy right now and I can't think clearly. Can anyone offer some advice please? Help, please!

[Sand&Water]

Bemused,

 

You are in a tough position. I honestly and constructively don't know what to tell you. He and you have been dating on and off for 20 years, and somehow he can't seem to know what he genuinely wants!? This must be hard for you to digest.

 

This is my take on the e-mail he wrote:

 

I've been thinking A LOT about what you said recently - yes, the 'M' word - and trying to see how I can merge that idea with what I want out of life. No matter how I look at it, I can get my head to go there, but I can't get it to stay there - and that has nothing to do with you. Believe me, if marriage was something I wanted, you'd know about it. Yes, I've had 20 years to make up my mind - but all I come up with is that IF I wanted to be family-guy, I know who I’d want.

I believe he is scared to commit. He thinks that, marriage -marrying a woman in your case, will in some way confine him into a small box he will not be able to escape from, nor be able to enjoy the things he joys as a flexible man in his 40s.

 

The fact, that he is in his 40s and not thinking of getting married indicates that he has established a narrow path of thought, and action that allows him to be in control of his life choices without having to follow strict orders and guidelines from anyone. He has enjoyed the freedom for so long, that he no longer knows and/or is able identify anything outside it's boundaries.

 

In addition, what I'm about to say may be a total outlier and irrelevant, but it could be that he had experienced an ugly friction between two unhappily married couple, to which may have caused him to forever reject and avert marriage as a whole.

 

Simply put, he is set in his way(s). And, this statement in his e-mail stood out: "IF I wanted to be family-guy, I know who I’d want." It seems like IF he undoubtedly wanted to marry, you would not be the one for him. It is like as though, he exactly knows the woman he wants to be with -her every character, feature, trait, etc -but not having the same flaws as you, perhaps. It could be that he would want someone with a more mothering character, IF he ever wanted to be a family-guy.

 

I strongly recommend you discuss this with him. Ask him how he firmly feels about you, and marriage.

 

Some thoughts to think about.

Sand&Water

[Bemused]

He thinks that, marriage -marrying a woman in your case, will in some way confine him into a small box he will not be able to escape from, nor be able to enjoy the things he joys as a flexible man in his 40s.

 

The fact, that he is in his 40s and not thinking of getting married indicates that he has established a narrow path of thought, and action that allows him to be in control of his life choices without having to follow strict orders and guidelines from anyone. He has enjoyed the freedom for so long, that he no longer knows and/or is able identify anything outside it's boundaries.

 

We had a loooong talk last night and what you've written here is exactly what his problem is. He loves me and would marry me if he could see himself being married; he can picture it, but it makes him very uncomfortable.

 

His general concept of marriage: "giving his life away"

 

He wants to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants with his time. Says if he pscychoanalyzes himself, that it's because he had overprotective parents as a child who never let him do anything, so ever since breaking away from that when he went off to college, he's insisted that nothing limit his freedom and independence. He admits he has what he calls, "independence issues".

 

I spent a long time trying to give him a different way of looking at this issue, at more of a micro level that would be personal to us, rather than at a macro level. Because it's one thing to have a general fear, and another thing to break-down the components of that fear in a specific situation. You know, what freedom exactly is he afraid of losing and would I, me - not the generic wife - actually require him to give that up? I spent a long time explaining my idea of marriage with specifics - this is what marriage is, and what it isn't, for me and how it applies to us.

 

NO, I don't want him to change. I like who he is. I don't want him to stop doing the activities he loves; I don't need someone joined to my hip 24/7, that would make me insane. I don't want to limit his freedom. But yes, marriage has some inherent limits built into the program.

 

He actually agreed with me on those points, and understands; however, he admits his fear is somewhat irrational but just can't see himself changing.

 

It's like having a fear of heights. Rationally, you know you're not going to fall over the railing or the bridge isn't going to collapse under your feet. But one glance over the edge, and your mind and body go into panic mode and reason and logic don't apply.

 

Yes, I asked him if he's considered therapy. No, he doesn't see himself doing that.

 

So. Isn't that lovely for me? He wants us to be boyfriend/girlfriend indefinitely, but is worried that's likely to frustrate me since I want a marriage.

 

For now, I'm not ready to make a decision. We're going to continue to see each other and we'll both keep thinking about this and talking about it periodically.

 

I'm between a rock and a hard place. I don't want to stop seeing him because we have a wonderful relationship and a very strong love. At the same time, our relationship is ultimately limited by his fears unless he can get past them. I'm not sure where this will end up, but I fear this is the beginning of the end.

 

Sucks to be me.

[justagirliegirl]

Do either of you have kids or want any?

 

It sounds like he is pretty set and he knows you have put up with it for 20 years.

[everlong]

"he has established a narrow path of thought, and action that allows him to be in control of his life choices without having to follow strict orders and guidelines from anyone"

 

just a suggestion. it sounds like what he is doing is simply 'blocking' other 'ways' of seeing the 'big picture because of learned behaviour. its like when someone says, i don't want to be with someone that wants to 'change' me! well, what's wrong with change if it makes you a better person. another example: i used to take the same route to drive to work everyday and one day my ex said, if you take this route, you will get there quickier, and i said, yah, but i am a creature of habit, i can't change my way of thinking...and about 5 seconds later i thought, wtf! that's so whacked...i don't take another better route simply because i 'think' a certain way? then change yer thinking buddy! all it takes is doing that once, and those 'walls' come tumbling down. however, it takes a special person to be able to get you to 'see' these things. and they are rare.

[Bemused]

Do either of you have kids or want any?

 

It sounds like he is pretty set and he knows you have put up with it for 20 years.

 

No, neither of us has kids nor wants any.

 

As for putting up with "it", I'm not sure what you're referring to...

[Bemused]

"he has established a narrow path of thought, and action that allows him to be in control of his life choices without having to follow strict orders and guidelines from anyone"

 

just a suggestion. it sounds like what he is doing is simply 'blocking' other 'ways' of seeing the 'big picture because of learned behaviour. its like when someone says, i don't want to be with someone that wants to 'change' me! well, what's wrong with change if it makes you a better person. another example: i used to take the same route to drive to work everyday and one day my ex said, if you take this route, you will get there quickier, and i said, yah, but i am a creature of habit, i can't change my way of thinking...and about 5 seconds later i thought, wtf! that's so whacked...i don't take another better route simply because i 'think' a certain way? then change yer thinking buddy! all it takes is doing that once, and those 'walls' come tumbling down. however, it takes a special person to be able to get you to 'see' these things. and they are rare.

 

The only thing you can do with stubborn people is...get them to think it's their idea. It's very effective in my career, but so hard to put into practice in a personal relationship.

 

I recognize that I can't change his mind. He has to want to. He has to have that "WTF, that's so whacked!" moment of realization himself. Maybe he can get comfortable with this kind of change in time; he's not into change in general...

[Sand&Water]

Bemused,

He wants us to be boyfriend/girlfriend indefinitely, but is worried that's likely to frustrate me since I want a marriage.

This is great progress. He is being very attentive to your needs, and desires. At least he wants you as his girlfriend, and vice versa.

 

You have to ask yourself: Am I willing, and capable of living with this man as just boyfriend and girlfriend? Do I, necessarily -or even absolutely, need to marry? and What will marriage provide my boyfriend and I that life right now, has not?

 

You have a long road, ahead of you. I recommend, you start forming a journal of what you observe, and how you feel about your life -looking from the outside in. You want to gain better perspective of the situation, and at the same time give room for personal and emotional changes to occur in the relationship -so as to further the development of self-fulfillment, gratification, and enjoyment.

 

It starts with you. You can, only, be pleased with the amount of appreciation he is presenting you.

 

You have to be realistic about your expectations. This is the real world -not Neverland.

 

Best of Luck,

Sand&Water

[justagirliegirl]

No, neither of us has kids nor wants any.

 

As for putting up with "it", I'm not sure what you're referring to...

 

What I mean is that you have tolerated the relationship as it is with no marriage or commitment.

 

He thinks you will put up with it indefinately because you have.

[everlong]

'tolerated', 'put up with'....red flags...when people think that way that means there is a divide happening....when that happens, call a time out

 

reconnect, get some just 'us' time...you are on a slipppppppery slope when thoughts like that creep in.....

 

as for eurekea moments, the great thing about them is getting that 'first' one takes time, but, you immediately become aware of the benefits when they occur and that 'opens' you up for more and more and more until...learned behaviour becomes a thing of the past!

 

wooo hooooo

[Bemused]

What I mean is that you have tolerated the relationship as it is with no marriage or commitment.

 

He thinks you will put up with it indefinately because you have.

 

I don't see things that way. We've had a long, complicated history together - and apart. For the last 6 years, I've been living across the country from him, and have dated and loved other poeple. He and only reconnected less than two years ago. He's well aware that I can and would leave him if I believe that's the right thing for me. He knows.

 

We've always said there's "something there" between us. That keeps bringing us together, stronger than before. That "something there" has stood the test of time. That's how I see things.

[Bemused]

'tolerated', 'put up with'....

 

...wooo hooooo

 

There's a lot more woo hoooo between us than tolerated and put up with.

[Bemused]

Bemused,

 

You have to be realistic about your expectations. This is the real world -not Neverland.

 

Best of Luck,

Sand&Water

 

Yes, thank you. That's important for me to remember. I do tend to be a romantic. And your other points are excellent advice as well.

[everlong]

"He's well aware that I can and would leave him if I believe that's the right thing for me. He knows."

hi muse,

nothing sexier to a guy than a confident woman but i think you have to pick your 'battles' when to bring that six gun out a blazing....think about what your comment tells the other person..."hey, you are ok for now, but if something better comes along, i'm outta here'

if i was on the receiving end of that declaration it would inspire my belief in your committment. now, i am not saying you should change that way of thinking, and you are totally entitled to whatever stance you want to take, just that, if i was the guy hearing that i wouldn't be looking to make any long term purchases if ya know what i mean