Hah...I should have done a search for counseling sooner. (2 months sooner)

August 8, 2006

Ok...long story short, I hope. We have been married for 17 years, lived together for a year beforehand, so 18 total together. Wife falls ill while overseas. I ship her back stateside for treatment and recuperation. About a week after she gets out of the hospital, I call to check on her and she tells me she wants a divorce. Panic mode ensues, along with a lot of begging and whining. Eventually I get some leave to head back home and see if I can patch things up. Its only 36 days mind you, but by the end, we have agreed that everything is hunkey dorey and neither of us wants to split. This is where it gets silly. Because I had the beejeezus scared out of me, I call a couple of times a day to check on her. She says she's fine and I can feel the temperature begin to drop on the other end of the phone. Again niggling feeling in the back of my brain, and whoa-la! I'm back into whiney mode once more. It seems to push her further and further away. Finally, I pop the question, "What's going on?" She lets me know she still has doubts. I tell her, no room for doubts, in for a penny, in for a pound. That's when she breaks down into tears, talks about being confused, etc. Of course I break again, even going so far as to agree to allowing her to take a trip to NYC to see a play. Next day, I get up and decide, "nope, not going to let that go." So, I draft an email and ship it to her letting her know she is cut off and that I will only agree to her being 100% committed to the relationship. Her mother informs me she is already gone. Again panicking, because I dont want to leave her in a lurch scrubbing dishes or rooms in a hotel, I turn on one card for her use to get back. I did call the hotel and let her know that I had done this through a voicemessage and a note at the front desk. Havent heard from her in the last five days.

Of course there are huge gaping holes in this story to include, came out of the blue, not a dern indicator or warning to speak of, says she loves me as a friend, wants a prince charming to come sweep her off her feet, left me down here with two high school aged kids. Now, I do love this woman dearly, although she has been acting a bit off as of late. So my question is this: Have I been the milquetoast for too long and has it damaged/ruined my chances for a reconciliation with her? I already made the vow, no more whiney giving in and supporting her behavior (yes, I read your list Gunz)

August 8, 2006

is ride it out. Too early to tell.

[sIZE=2][/sIZE]

This smacks of MLC ~ Mid-life Crisss, what with the illness. Look through UK's posts, and he's got a link there. Lor has it as well.

Sounds like you’ve already "maned-up" to the situation, still in "Alpha-mode" It also sounds like you’re not meeting her emotional needs in some way, and she’s not articulate enough to tell you what they are? So check out MarriageBuilders.com (good stuff ~ there!)

You might also want to Goggle "Light Her Fire" and Dr. Ellen Kreidman.

You talk the talk, you’re a Marine?

August 8, 2006

Yep...16 years. Much rather be shot at than go through this crap.

August 8, 2006

That puts a whole different spin on things ~ my friend. Because that brings multiple dynamics into play that our civilian friends aren’t aware of.

Sixteen years ~ which means you and she have been married about the entire time that you’ve been in ~ which means the Gunny/Major curse comes into play. I didn’t believe in it until I made Gunny. In case you’ve never heard of it ~ a lot of wives bail on their husbands that are Marines about the time that they pin on Gunny or Major. Mine bailed on me when I pinned on Gunny and I had sixteen years in the Corps. I still cannot explain this phenomenon? But, it occurs regularly enough.

And, oddly enough my friend, it went down while on a three accompanied tour to Oki. She got over there at the Crow’s Nest and lost her damn mind. So I sent her and the children on an "ERD" back Stateside. Was going to do my last year in Oki and let her get a taste of life without me.

The list? I did everything it said not to do, and none of what it said do. It just drove her further and further. The OM was a L/Cpl. who was just using her as duty station POA. I didn’t know he was going Stateside at the exact same time. The plan was to dump me ~ marry the OM. But, he got back Stateside and being about 12 years younger than she was, told her that he had gotten the HS sweetheart pregno, and "He just had to do right by her and his child, and marry her.

I hear you about getting shot. That either kills you (a quick death) or you’ll eventually recover from your wounds.

Defiantly sounds more and more like MLC, and that there might be OM (I'd almost bet next month ret. check on it) in NYC. I’d prepare for the worse case scenario. Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worse case.

Stay strong, stayed "man-ed up" and in "Alpha Mode"

Goggle Divorcenet. Look for Walk-A-Wives

August 8, 2006

Sounds like maybe there's some depression at work. But I'm also wondering if there's could be a connection here to being a career military spouse. (????)

Just pondering.... but it almost seems like she's seeking attention from you after having gone without attention for prolonged periods throughout the marriage.

Is there some kind of diagnostic criteria available for relationship problems in a military setting? Is there a chaplain or psychologist you could talk to about that?

August 9, 2006

Is there some kind of diagnostic criteria available for relationship problems in a military setting? Is there a chaplain or psychologist you could talk to about that?

You know the drill, Wolf. Keep the Corps out of your personal life!

August 9, 2006

Thanks Gunz and nope, never heard of the curse. Mine literally lost her mind. Got sick, took a baking soda and water for heartburn or somesuch, ended up doing a potassium dump and next thing you know, she was talking to God and going to save all the worlds children. Had to put her in an institute down here, which didnt help matters much as it scared the hell out of her (they're a little behind the times), then had her evac'd to Portsmouth once they had her stabilized for travel...LadyJane, yep, she was on anti-depressants while in Buenos Aires. We move a little further south a year later and she decides all on her own that she is better and goes off them. I will tell you this, I screwed around with one of those online diagnostic thing-a-ma-jigs, plugging in her history, observed behavior, etc. According to it, she should be taking horse pill sized prozac. Begged her to get her bunz to a doctor before I have to deal with a wife swinging from a shower head along with this, but nogo. She wont get help until she decides she needs it.

August 9, 2006

You know the drill, Wolf. Keep the Corps out of your personal life!

Good point. But I wonder if there are any books available that deal with marriage to military personnel.

Maybe he could utilize civillian counseling with a therapist who's well-versed in the subject.

It just seems to me like there might be something of a particular diagnostic criteria somewhere. Identifying the PROBLEM is usually the key to solving it.

August 9, 2006

She wont get help until she decides she needs it.

Or until she hits rock bottom....which can be dangerous for people dealing with serious depression.

If nothing else, you might want to talk to a counselor for yourself in order to get emotional support dealing with the problem.

August 9, 2006

Or until she hits rock bottom....which can be dangerous for people dealing with serious depression.

If nothing else, you might want to talk to a counselor for yourself in order to get emotional support dealing with the problem.

Oh yes, I understand about the rock bottom thing, but the more you insist, the more she resists. Its actually quite a charming and challenging personality quirk that I have developed a knack for handling, except this time, she doesnt want to talk or listen to anyone. As far as a particular diagnostic tool, search me. If it exists, havent heard of it. I talked to her doc on multiple occasions about me and managing this crisis, as well as her. Good guy (it kinda torques her out of the frame when I mention him, so I tend to steer clear). She comes from a broken home to begin with. Now apparently, and why God, oh why dont they issue manuals with this stuff in it, typically someone with her family background will seek someone like myself, stable family, stable personality, something that they kinda missed out on earlier. About this time (16-20 years) they begin to have doubts. They either will or will not remain married. She is like a child sitting on a teeter-totter in the middle of the play ground and wanting someone to come play. She is just going to run to the opposite end of that teeter-totter every time. So, I have to sit and wait for her play, which I have not done well with at all. He told me counseling or no counseling, this is completely survivable either way, emotions all over the map for the first few months, strange period of tranquility, followed by being PO'd for the last four of a one year period. Of course in some cases, like 1% I think is what he quoted, people suicide. Dont think I am going down that road...entirely too Catholic ; )

August 9, 2006

This is a different ball game than the one we were discussing earlier ~ in which case most of what I previously posted wouldn’t be of any use to you. At least not until you’ve got her stabilized and back on her medication and her medical issues addressed.

Have you considered just going and getting her?

LJ the "Gunny/Major "curse" is just a manifestation of the WWW syndrome, with a military curse ~ probably ups it a couple of notches.

You may be have a little of that, mixed in with some MLC, aggravated all the more by her medical issues.

You’re a good man sticking by her. A lot of ordinary men would have walked already. Sounds like you love her a lot and your in it for the long haul, the good, the bad, and ugly. But oaths never were just words to guys like us.

August 9, 2006

Just went back printed your thread off, and re-read it! And, yea I'm reading between the lines here ~ so you don't need to post any of rest.

I've opened my account here and so you can PM me if you want.

Guns

You'll have to go into your profile to open yours up for PM's (its turned off)

Go to

My Profile/CP

Edit Opitions

Check enable private messages

To send a PM click on my handle's name

August 9, 2006

Sent you a PM...we are about an hour ahead of you guys down this way, so I didnt see your post until this morning

August 9, 2006

This is a different ball game than the one we were discussing earlier ~ in which case most of what I previously posted wouldn’t be of any use to you. At least not until you’ve got her stabilized and back on her medication and her medical issues addressed.

Have you considered just going and getting her?

LJ the "Gunny/Major "curse" is just a manifestation of the WWW syndrome, with a military curse ~ probably ups it a couple of notches.
You may be have a little of that, mixed in with some MLC, aggravated all the more by her medical issues.

You’re a good man sticking by her. A lot of ordinary men would have walked already. Sounds like you love her a lot and your in it for the long haul, the good, the bad, and ugly. But oaths never were just words to guys like us.

Yes I do, more than life itself, and yes I am. We have done practically everything together since we met. Where one of us was there was the other, inseperable. That's why this has been danmdably hard for me to get past.

August 9, 2006

Realistically speaking, Wolf... your wife has abandoned her husband and children due to her mental health issues. Now, bear in mind that her actions don't necessarily fit the legal definition of "abandonment". But in essence, that's what she's done.

There's alot of different things that could be going on with her, depression, hormones... you name it. But the bottom line is that she's doing NOTHING to address the situation.

This is where MR REALITY starts biting people on the butt.

You left her a credit card. That's nice of you, but if I were you.... I'd give her a small check every month instead. I'd talk it over with my attorney too. On the one hand you don't want to seem ungenerous. On the other, you don't want to set a precedent for future spousal support, and you most certainly don't want to pay her attorney out of YOUR POCKET should she decide to engage one.

She's making a CHOICE to not share in the family's finances. That's her loss. She's got a home to go to.

Life's not always a bowl of cherries. Sometimes, life is hard. It's particularly hard.... when you're being STUPID.

Your wife is being stupid right now. She's got a husband and family who love her, but she'd rather go play these mind games. That's fine. But YOU don't have to play them with her.

Instead, you will Secure Your Perimeter. You need to keep your family and your finances within your control. Work with your attorney. Be prepared for her to try to gain the upper hand when you get back to the states. You'll need to secure temporary custody of the children, and you'll need to prevent her from incurring debt in your name. Most usually, that means filing for Legal Separation.

Meanwhile back at the ranch..... You need to find out if you've got a 'snake in your woodpile'. Pull the detail records on her cell phone as well as her bank and credit card statements. Go through the family PC with a fine toothed comb. With her recent mental health history, it's not unlikely that she's flaked out all on her own. But still... check it out anyway.

She's supposedly looking for work and setting up housekeeping in advance of your return. If she's not actually accomplished something... tell her to come back home. If she refuses, give her a time limit to get there. If she doesn't "get there", drop the Legal Separation bomb on her. Your demeanor will be as pleasant as possible during all your interactions with her... so don't let her rattle your cage and engage you in adversarial behavior. You're just a guy doing what he has to do.

If it becomes necessary to go as far as legal separation... she's no longer welcome to come back without EARNING her way. She'll need to meet your terms. Really, one of your terms ought to be that she'll get into IC and stay there until she's released by the therapist with a clean bill of health.

You asked for the 180's list, so I'll print it for you here. This is from Michelle Weiner Davis' book Divorcebusting:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get
busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends,
etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start
the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his
whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have
had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you
are going to move on with your life, with or without
your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull
back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more
important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show
your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him
someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which
may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes
their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really
saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you
want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh &
focus on all the other parts of your life that are not
in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any
words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you
are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with
your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than
50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in
absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad
you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes

I wouldn't implement this until AFTER she refuses compliance. Instead, I'd be fairly cooperative with her right up until Legal Separation. After that, I'd do 180's and let her stew a little. She'll be off balance because she's no longer in charge, and she'll be wondering if you're moving on without her.

180's are best done while you're still in contact. The idea is to be ATTRACTIVE, but not solitious. You're pleasant, you're charming, but you're also doing what you need to do in order to protect your family. Right now, you don't have to worry about going to NC (no contact). You're nowhere near needing that yet.

August 9, 2006

DOD doesn't recognize legal separation ~ either your married or your not. Although the individual state in which you file may depending upon the state. If you get station in NC, you must be physically separated for one year prior to filing for divorce.

Per DOD directive, dependent spouses are entitled to up to 80% of the service member's basic pay, without a court ordered decree. He or she need but make petition to the service member’s commanding officer, with the service member’s commanding officer signing off on such petition.

Check out the relevant MCO's, ALMARS's etc (Available on liine via CMC's website.

August 9, 2006

What I'm most concerned about, Gunny, is what happens when he and the children return to the states. I'm wondering if she can slap temporary custody and child support orders on him when he arrives, and catch him flat-footed.

August 9, 2006

you. And, don't think that for a moment that's not possible, even though he has actual physical custody of the chlldren.

I hate to say it Wolf, but it look likes she put you in that position, to where you may have to up the ante' for the sake of the children.

And, don't think for a moment that you can't get and keep custody. Women get custody 90% of the time - primarly because the men don't even try and get custody. But, of the 10% of the time when they do seek custody ~ they get it 90% of the time. I believe this would especially true in your case ~ given your track record of stability, time on the job etc.

When I was going through the Big "D" I had just gotten back from the first round in the Gulf. I've had issues with the XW, but she's always has been a good Mother to her children.

August 9, 2006

Realistically speaking, Wolf... your wife has abandoned her husband and children due to her mental health issues. Now, bear in mind that her actions don't necessarily fit the legal definition of "abandonment". But in essence, that's what she's done.

There's alot of different things that could be going on with her, depression, hormones... you name it. But the bottom line is that she's doing NOTHING to address the situation.

This is where MR REALITY starts biting people on the butt.
You left her a credit card. That's nice of you, but if I were you.... I'd give her a small check every month instead. I'd talk it over with my attorney too. On the one hand you don't want to seem ungenerous. On the other, you don't want to set a precedent for future spousal support, and you most certainly don't want to pay her attorney out of YOUR POCKET should she decide to engage one.

She's making a CHOICE to not share in the family's finances. That's her loss. She's got a home to go to.

Life's not always a bowl of cherries. Sometimes, life is hard. It's particularly hard.... when you're being STUPID.
Your wife is being stupid right now. She's got a husband and family who love her, but she'd rather go play these mind games. That's fine. But YOU don't have to play them with her.

Instead, you will Secure Your Perimeter. You need to keep your family and your finances within your control. Work with your attorney. Be prepared for her to try to gain the upper hand when you get back to the states. You'll need to secure temporary custody of the children, and you'll need to prevent her from incurring debt in your name. Most usually, that means filing for Legal Separation.

Meanwhile back at the ranch..... You need to find out if you've got a 'snake in your woodpile'. Pull the detail records on her cell phone as well as her bank and credit card statements. Go through the family PC with a fine toothed comb. With her recent mental health history, it's not unlikely that she's flaked out all on her own. But still... check it out anyway.

She's supposedly looking for work and setting up housekeeping in advance of your return. If she's not actually accomplished something... tell her to come back home. If she refuses, give her a time limit to get there. If she doesn't "get there", drop the Legal Separation bomb on her. Your demeanor will be as pleasant as possible during all your interactions with her... so don't let her rattle your cage and engage you in adversarial behavior. You're just a guy doing what he has to do.

If it becomes necessary to go as far as legal separation... she's no longer welcome to come back without EARNING her way. She'll need to meet your terms. Really, one of your terms ought to be that she'll get into IC and stay there until she's released by the therapist with a clean bill of health.

You asked for the 180's list, so I'll print it for you here. This is from Michelle Weiner Davis' book Divorcebusting:

I wouldn't implement this until AFTER she refuses compliance. Instead, I'd be fairly cooperative with her right up until Legal Separation. After that, I'd do 180's and let her stew a little. She'll be off balance because she's no longer in charge, and she'll be wondering if you're moving on without her.

180's are best done while you're still in contact. The idea is to be ATTRACTIVE, but not solitious. You're pleasant, you're charming, but you're also doing what you need to do in order to protect your family. Right now, you don't have to worry about going to NC (no contact). You're nowhere near needing that yet.

Actually, we are already at NC. I have not tried to engage her since the 4th of Aug. She had upset me (or I allowed myself to become upset; mind you not a screaming match but a questioning of her logic) when she was giving me a hard time over requesting an early return of myself and the kids to the states due to the standard of living down here (just cant raise two US kids without two parents present). She wanted to know why she hadnt been consulted beforehand. Now, normally, I do consult her on decisions both major and minor, but this one, in my mind, was a no-brainer and didnt require prior consultation. That's when I delivered the ultimatum (too soon mayhaps?). She had not done what I had requested up to that point so I sent her a nice email detailing that fact and that if it was her desire to be on her own and search for a new 'Mr Right' or a new her, it was not going to be on the dime of the children and I, especially when both start college within two years (trust me when I say I have agonized over that decision since I made it. Just cant help it after 18 years of shared support. Eventually I will come to accept it was for the best I suppose, but right now, I still feel like the world's biggest heel). Because I am still stationed overseas, I am at a real disadvantage and am hoping HQMC can do a hurry up on a humanitarian transfer: one, I have to get the kids and myself back, registered for school, and stable before I start work again; two, managing this issue from the US would be challenging, from here a nightmare. As far as custody, she was going to leave the kids down here with me, and after we went NC, she has only sent a single email to them. When were still in contact, I would have the kids call her to say hi. They started getting irritated about the fact she was not calling and so I stopped making them give her a shout. She still hasnt tried to call and talk to them. I am not so sure that she is interested in custody at this point, but I could be wrong...never thought she would leave me either So right now, I am waiting for either contact or the other shoe to drop.

August 9, 2006

Well, since the kids are almost ready for college, I don't think you'll have to worry too much about custody issues. That's good.

But I don't understand why you're in NC with your wife.

Conflict can be a good thing. It's better than allowing a state of withdrawal in which your wife will eventually establish a routine apart from you and the family dynamic. In a state of withdrawal, separation can very quickly become status quo, and many couples who are physically separated never do find their way back together.

I'll admit there's not much you can do when a woman is DONE. A woman who's made a firm decision to divorce and move on isn't going to respond to much of anything you say or do. That said, your description of this woman makes me think she's 'on the fence' still.

Women who are "done" might be sad and even cry about it.... but they're not depressed and confused. Women who are "done" know EXACTLY what they're doing, even though they don't always enjoy the doing of it.

I think I would still push for normalization of the relationship, followed up with the consequences I posted you earlier if she balks. You don't have to be unpleasant with her, but you do need to be firm in your convictions.

She's had a psychiatric episode, and I can understand your hesitancy to push her. But you can't let her milk it. If she's truly sick, that's one thing. Tell her to have her psychiatrist give you a call if that's the case. If she's not, she needs to get her butt back to her family.

August 9, 2006

The state of NC occurred after she disappeared for a couple of days (because I was calling to much), coupled with my current mental state (meaning being able to communicate with her clearly and concisely) I figured it was best not to contact her until she was ready to talk, meaning when she initiated. With her mom guarding the lines, I couldnt get through if I wanted. I did just send her a simple email stating me and the kids are fine and I wanted to see how she was doing. If she wanted send an email or call because I would like to hear from her.

August 9, 2006

If you type into your browser, "the three states of marriage, marriagebuilders", you'll find an article there that will explain why 'conflict' is better than 'withdrawal'.

Now, I'm not suggesting big greasy fights, or calling her 10 times a day. But I think you'd do well to get those lines of communications reopened.

August 9, 2006

Have to wait and see if the email I dangled gets a bite or not. Honestly in her mental state, she just does not want to deal with me at this point IMHO and trying to get a grip on whats next from 5000 miles away is proving to be very problematic. I have talked to both her parents numerous times before this latest event, urging them to get her to seek treatment, but they will not do so because they dont want to "upset her" Her whole family dynamic is a novel in and of itself and is one of those things that is currently working against me. So, I am stuck working with what I have (basically nada) at this point until either she decides to respond or the USMC moves me back North.

August 9, 2006

Have to wait and see if the email I dangled gets a bite or not. Honestly in her mental state, she just does not want to deal with me at this point IMHO and trying to get a grip on whats next from 5000 miles away is proving to be very problematic.

You did good with the email.

She may not "want" to deal with you.... but you're not a waiter assigned to her table, and she's not your CO. You don't take orders from her, right?

YOU are in the driver's seat of YOUR life. You can't make her decisions, but you can damn sure make your own.

August 9, 2006

Thanks...words of encouragement do help when what you are doing rails against the very fiber of your being.

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Hah...I should have done a search for counseling sooner. (2 months sooner)

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