Do victims lack judgment in their future potential partners?

[amaysngrace]

I am trying to make heads or tails of this.

 

Do people who came from abusive relationships have a problem with seeing what's wrong with a potential partner, because what flaws they have aren't as bad as their abusers?

 

Do they see no signs they saw in their abuser in this potential partner, but fail to recognize other character flaws?

 

Are they less choosy than those who have never been in an abusive relationship?

 

Do they put up with more than others would, simply because they have been programmed to?

[Pink Amulet]

YES.

 

My best friend managed to pick out an abuser through many good quality suiters. She was with him for four years. She finally had the strength to leave him last year (with the help of myself and her family).

 

She then met a 'charming', 'handsome', 'wealthy' young man who injects her daily with methamphetamine. She says she is very happy with her relationship.

 

Go figure.

[lindya]

Do they put up with more than others would, simply because they have been programmed to?

 

 

I think some people have quite low expectations with regard to a partner's behaviour. If, for instance, you've been brought up in an abusive household then you might think it's fairly normal for a partner to shout at or even hit you.

 

Some people derive a lot of false self esteem from their ability to tolerate ill treatment from other people. "I'm tougher than other people, I can handle more crap". I used to think very much along those lines. Then when I split up from an ex who'd treated me pretty crappily, he told me "your only talent consists of tolerating other people's crap." I guess it was one more talent than he had, so perhaps he was jealous.

 

I think people who have had a lot of negative messages as kids (being hit a lot, criticised endlessly etc) can have a hard time accepting that not everyone was brought up amongst the same negativity. That there are people out there who genuinely do have a more positive approach towards others...and that it isn't just an act.

 

It takes a fair bit of exposure to people from the latter group, I think, in order to re-programme people with low self esteem to start having more positive thoughts about themselves, and to be less tolerant in what they'll accept.

[littlekitty]

One abusive relationship is usually enough to put you in a cycle of them. You suddenly find yourself in an abusive relationship with no idea how you got there. From then on your self worth nose dives, and you slowly begin to feel that you don't deserve any better.

 

Even when you manage to get out of the abusive relationship, unless you deal with the fallout from that, then your self worth remain low and you end up right back in the same type of relationship. You almost program yourself to expect that.

[arc]

I'm currently in the position after a very short but intense relationship followed by a currently inexplicable ending, of working through similar ideas myself. I think a lot of this comes down to personal boundaries I, as someone who has ended up in several emotionally abusive relationships (where I take responsibility now for the fact my own attempts to defend myself became almost as abusive in turn), am aware that my own boundaries leave something to be desired. And am now taking steps to define and strengthen the weaknesses without becoming bitter or descending into victimhood. The partners who have taken on the role of abuser, have had boundary issues of their own. I now am developing the compassion to understand why possibly that was so, based on what I've known of their own histories. I think those of us who are prone to ending up in these situations are carrying a degree of damage, and if we don't take steps to heal from both old and new damage after one of these relationships end, we will continue both to be vulnerable to repeating these relationships, and also be immensely attractive to other people with boundary issues of their own. I don't know how much sense I am making, but I'll persist. I realise I give off an air of vulnerability when getting close to someone romantically and sexually, which attracts those greatly who have any kind of 'saviour' type leanings. I'm also equally attracted to that vulnerability in others, which can bring out my own 'saviour' leanings. Combined with the stresses of life, this can descend into a seriously damaging 'dance' and before either of us realise, we've both become hideously emeshed and that triggers deep defensive mechanisms (involving over control of self or the other, unhealthy attempts to escape the situation by various chaotic and self destructive behaviours). When it ends, if you aren't able to take responsibility for your part in what happened, forgive yourself and the other person and learn from the experience, it will keep happening

[Outcast]

The mistake people who have never met or known an abuser make is thinking that they are always abusive. They are not. They are people with two sides as a rule. They can be charming and loving and considerate and everything you'd want in a person. You don't see the anger or abuse in the beginning. You see all the good points and the good behaviour for long enough that you get hooked.

 

The unpleasant behaviour emerges gradually. One small incident. So because it doesn't jibe with all the good things you know, you consider it an anomaly. Then another thing and you think it's another anomaly and make excuses - after all, he's been great so far.

 

The unpleasant behaviour seems out of character which is why you stay. You believe that the person you first met is the 'real' guy and any bad behaviour is out of the norm and has some reason which will pass.

 

It's slow and it's subtle. Some abusers will get their victims thinking that it's their 'fault' that they're being mistreated (one LSer comes to mind here). But you'll find that a lot of abused keep thinking 'if only I do X, then things will go back to how they were at the beginning when they were so great'.

 

If you never understand anything else about abusers understand this: they are not one-sided. They are not only angry and mean and abusive. There are two completely different sides to them. And that's what makes it so hard to understand and so bizarre. The day after an abusive event happens, it's hard to believe it even happened. It's too surreal. This guy, who's been great turned into something else briefly - and then turned back. The remorse is real - it's not that they necessarily could stop themselves; they suffer from a lack of ability to inhibit their actions.

 

The guy I was with would shovel snow for elderly neighbours. He was basically a good guy who had been so mistreated when he was young that he was filled with anger and self-loathing and, so far as I could figure it, he expected me to 'make it better' for him, to make him feel better - and when he didn't feel better, he got angry at me. I suspect this is often the case since abusers have almost always been abused themselves.

 

So there isn't 'fault' on the part of the abused or the victim except perhaps being too willing to make allowances - but again, they believe that 'the way it was in the beginning' is the norm and that any behaviour afterwards is a deviation from the norm and that the norm is achievable again. Some figure out that it's not - I didn't stay long. But others stay trapped in the hope that he *really* means it this time when he says he'll never do it again. Because 'it was so good in the beginning'.

[amaysngrace]

I appreciate and understand what you're all saying. But how do you break out of that thinking? If it's a false sense of 'normal' one feels, how do you trust yourself to not make the same mistakes? Even if it is less intense than it was in your previous relationship(s)?

 

Is the only way out of this to find someone who has the equal amount of scars as yourself, or is there a way to become completely rid of this thinking?

 

I would like to trust myself to know what's best for me, but I am uncertain due to past preferences. How does one go about changing this type of thinking?

 

For example, I am sure it was my father's negativity that set me up to fail in relationships. Do I need to address this to myself and work through it? Would that be a benefit?

 

I am completely fried thinking about this. I tend to block things out that are too hard to face. And pretend they don't exist.

[superconductor]

This is another one of the thousands of reasons that you should never exclusively rely on your feelings. Feelings matter, of course, but they're not the only thing that matters. One's head (the big one) has to take charge and make sure that your feelings are working for you, instead of against you.

[amaysngrace]

One's head (the big one) has to take charge and make sure that your feelings are working for you, instead of against you.

 

 

How do you separate the two...thoughts from feelings?

 

Please help. I'm willing to do the work required, I promise.

[lindya]

Is the only way out of this to find someone who has the equal amount of scars as yourself, or is there a way to become completely rid of this thinking?

 

I would like to trust myself to know what's best for me, but I am uncertain due to past preferences. How does one go about changing this type of thinking?

 

 

Perhaps, in a relationship with someone who dishes out third rate treatment, we become driven by a sense that if we're not getting treated well it's because we haven't "earned" the right to be treated in a manner that other people would take for granted. If you can achieve an abusive person's highest love and approval, then you'll have achieved something amazing that will silence all the critical voices that have ever haunted you. Right?

 

Sadly, all that happens is that you provide those all those critics with a vocal, harmful spokesperson. Someone who has regular access to the most vulnerable parts of your psyche....and will constantly needle them in order to reinforce the faulty and damaging beliefs you have about yourself.

 

There are so many different processes involved in changing your thinking patterns, and obviously getting help from a counsellor is going to give you far more chance of doing it successfully. I think you have to start evicting the critical voices in your head. Give those voices some sort of tangible form (preferably a physically repulsive one), then picture yourself throwing them out onto the street and closing the door on them.

 

Try to do that every time you catch yourself being self-critical in a non-constructive way. Figure out what it means to be a truly good friend to someone, and start being that good friend to yourself.

[quankanne]

do victims lack judgment? I think it's a combination of things, all based on sense of self-worth. I know one young woman who is incredibly smart (book smart and horse-sense smart), funny, lovely and gifted, and she's in a marriage where I've been told abuse is occuring. The old her wouldn't have put up with that kind of BS – verbal abuse, much less the beginnings of physical abuse*– but I think her self-esteem has taken such a beating that she truly believes that if she divorces this man, she and her children will be stigmatized. Because he's capitalized on her inadequate feelings as a child of divorce and has set his own dysfunctional family as the standard, she doesn't see that it's wrong. I know she senses it, but she's ignoring intuition to be able to say, "at least I'm not making my children suffer from divorce like I did."

 

plus, I think because she initially identified her husband as a "strong Christian," she's convinced herself that his behavior is allowable in their marriage ... or it's as outie says, she cannot believe he's said or done what he has, she thinks its an anomoly, so she brushes it aside until it's happened so many times, she's hooked into a cycle of abuse because she either doesn't have the energy to say "no more" or the will power to hold his toes to the fire and tell him that unless he/they get the help needed, their marriage is going to come to a quick death because that kind of behavior is not acceptable.

 

But how do you break out of that thinking? If it's a false sense of 'normal' one feels, how do you trust yourself to not make the same mistakes? Even if it is less intense than it was in your previous relationship(s)?

 

set your sights higher ... aim for a healthy relationship. That when you see negative behavior happening – especially abusive behavior – you're able to walk away. Or if you intend to make the relationship work, you get the help you need so that you can build a healthier relationship.

 

you shouldn't be forced to wallow in someone else's cesspit just because you care about them; you have to have enough self-respect and common sense to say, "Nope, that's not for me, and you shouldn't expect me to put up with that garbage," and mean it.

[amaysngrace]

There are so many different processes involved in changing your thinking patterns, and obviously getting help from a counsellor is going to give you far more chance of doing it successfully. I think you have to start evicting the critical voices in your head. Give those voices some sort of tangible form (preferably a physically repulsive one), then picture yourself throwing them out onto the street and closing the door on them.

 

Try to do that every time you catch yourself being self-critical in a non-constructive way. Figure out what it means to be a truly good friend to someone, and start being that good friend to yourself.

 

 

The main voice that still has an affect on me is my fathers. Just last week he said 'I have a tendency to choose losers'. He has done so much damage to my thinking, and I am left with the aftermath. He isn't one I can discard so easily, seeing how he is still my dad and I see him every time I go to my mothers.

 

I really would like to have this resolved, at least on my end of it, before he passes. He isn't ill, but he's older.

 

I know he is unhappy and has used me as his kicking post most of his life. Not in a physical way, verbal only, but I found myself on uneven playing fields quite often as a adolencent when he began his tearing into me with personal attacks. Plus, I was always taught respect, so in being the good girl I was, I would sit there and keep it in with no outlet for the attacks.

 

I did become rebellious later on, and found myself with an eating disorder to boot! I have conquered quite a lot but he is still present and doesn't seem to spare me his negativity all too often.

 

So, what to do? I prefer to do this myself, for myself. And if need be, I can seek counseling if I am unable.

[amaysngrace]

you shouldn't be forced to wallow in someone else's cesspit just because you care about them; you have to have enough self-respect and common sense to say, "Nope, that's not for me, and you shouldn't expect me to put up with that garbage," and mean it.

 

 

This reminds me of my favorite phrase of late: "I'm not your toilet...don't sh*t on me"

[RecordProducer]

I don't think this is a head-or-tail answer.

 

My first boyfriend was the ultimate total loser.

After him, everyone (my second BF, who later became my husband) seemed like sunshine after rain.

 

After the second not-so-bad-but-still-a-loser (my first husband), I tried to settle for the next guy who was much better, but still totally wrong for me.

 

And finally I realized I couldn't settle for less forever. I have to look for the right thing. And I think I found what I wanted/deserved more or less.

 

So my conclusion is: we do tend to fail to recognize signs that we haven't dealt with before. We do tend to be less picky after bad relationships. But at the same time, we tend to not repeat the same mistakes and choose better.

 

I think being in a bad relationship more than once opens our eyes about some general mistakes we make. We don't look for a person who listens to the same music or likes the same movies and cartoons anymore (you will often hear young people describing how they hit it off from the beginning cuz they both shared the same taste for trivial things). We start to concentrate on the big picture instead: respect, character, honesty, intellectual compatibility, etc.

[Touche]

 

Are they less choosy than those who have never been in an abusive relationship?

 

Do they put up with more than others would, simply because they have been programmed to?

 

I've been in one abusive relationship and I must say for me, I was not LESS choosy after that. My pendulum went completely in the opposite direction. I'm not very tolerant of even a bad mood let alone abuse now!

 

So no. I actually put up with less than I did before becoming involved in a long term abusive relationship. And it carried over not only in my choice in a mate but in my other relationships as well.

 

It's worked against me in some ways. I'm less tolerant of my mother's verbal abuse so I don't take it and we fight more. I'm less tolerant of anything I perceive as unfair at work (when I was working.)

 

So in some ways my lowered tolerance level has been great and in other ways not so great. I don't have close friends either for this reason.

 

Would I go back to how I was again though? No. I accept that I'm forever changed by my abusive ex. It's not all bad to be this way. Perhaps one day I'll strive for a little more balance though.

[lindya]

The main voice that still has an affect on me is my fathers. Just last week he said 'I have a tendency to choose losers'. He has done so much damage to my thinking, and I am left with the aftermath. He isn't one I can discard so easily, seeing how he is still my dad and I see him every time I go to my mothers.

 

I really would like to have this resolved, at least on my end of it, before he passes. He isn't ill, but he's older.

 

I know he is unhappy and has used me as his kicking post most of his life. Not in a physical way, verbal only, but I found myself on uneven playing fields quite often as a adolencent when he began his tearing into me with personal attacks. Plus, I was always taught respect, so in being the good girl I was, I would sit there and keep it in with no outlet for the attacks.

 

I did become rebellious later on, and found myself with an eating disorder to boot! I have conquered quite a lot but he is still present and doesn't seem to spare me his negativity all too often.

 

Why don't you ask him what he hopes to gain through being so negative and critical towards you? If he starts banging on about how he only wants to see you happy and settled, point out that he's been using this negative approach for the past however many years. It hasn't helped you in the past, so what makes him think it's going to suddenly start working?

 

Remember that he's from a totally different generation who believed in the whole spare the rod spoil the child mentality. My father's the same, but we've had many a lengthy conversation over the year about the drawbacks of that kind of thinking - though it wasn't until I'd proved myself both academically and professionally before he would treat my views with a bit of respect.

 

What he always pointed out amounts to "nobody taught us parenting. There weren't all the books, tv programmes, celebrity professionals etc that there are now...and on the whole we just had to muddle along parenting as we'd been parented."

 

So your dad's criticism of you says less about you and more about his own limitations as a parent. I don't mean that in a nasty way about him - but it's pretty well documented by now that subjecting a child to constant criticism and aggression is not an effective way to ensure they grow up to be a confident and happy adult....and can often just leave that child in a state of "paralysis" whereby they're afraid to try anything for fear of failure.

 

There's not much we can do to change other people's behaviour towards us - though I would say that better treatment from other people is generally a side effect of gaining in confidence.

 

At this age, your dad is highly unlikely to start changing his behaviour....so you have to work with the status quo. I'm sure your dad loves you hugely, but he screwed up his job as a dad...and now it's down to you to start repairing some of the damage, bearing in mind that your dad doesn't have the skills and the emotional intelligence to sort out his own mistakes.

[quankanne]

lindy's got a good observation here about dads – he's most likely from a generation where men didn't get involved, but lorded over home and family from a throne, while his wife did all the behind-the-scenes work and built the strong relationships with the kids because it was socially acceptable for her to be closer to her children. So, as his kids grow older and closer to Mama, he becomes insecure or uncomfortable with the fact that they love and respect his wife more than they do him. And he takes it out on them …

 

I know he is unhappy and has used me as his kicking post most of his life. Not in a physical way, verbal only, but I found myself on uneven playing fields quite often as a adolencent when he began his tearing into me with personal attacks. Plus, I was always taught respect, so in being the good girl I was, I would sit there and keep it in with no outlet for the attacks.

 

well, the one good thing about being an adult is that you have the opportunity to level the playing field by telling people you're not going to play their games or be treated like crap. Even while being the dutiful daughter. He might not like being yelled back at or being told he's acting like a tantrummy two-year-old, but believe you me, if he's got an ounce of decency in him, he'll start being better about things.

 

the hard part is getting past the "good daughter" thing – sometimes, you have to fight for respect, and that's not a selfish or bad thing, even if it's a parent you're fighting. Just think of it as a reconditioning exercise. Because if you can recondition a child's negative behavior or teach a husband how to behave himself in public (lol), your dad will be a piece of cake.

[blind_otter]

If you fixate on your father's affect on your tendency to have unhealthy relationships you will ensure that those unhealthy relationships will continue. Self fulfilling prophecy.

 

For me, I have come to believe that I must acknowledge the abuse that took place. That it actually happened. And that the initial event, was not my fault.

 

But my choices subsequent to the initial incident of abuse are mine and mine alone. I had the ability to use this to motivate me positively. Instead I allowed the misery to infect every particle of my being and the net result was a history of sh*tty relationships with people who did not jive with me.

 

How can I blame choices I have made,years down the road, on an event that occured so long ago? It is my choice that let it affect me. And my choice to use it as an excuse for poor decisions on my part. I am accountable for my decisions now, no one else is. It's liberating, in a way, but also terrifying. Because I have blamed my problems on a handful of personal events for so long.

[RecordProducer]

How can I blame choices I have made,years down the road, on an event that occured so long ago? It is my choice that let it affect me. And my choice to use it as an excuse for poor decisions on my part. I am accountable for my decisions now, no one else is. It's liberating, in a way, but also terrifying. Because I have blamed my problems on a handful of personal events for so long.

You want to believe that it was your fault, that you had control over your poor decisions, because you don't want to accept the possibility that something else had power over you, i.e. that you were screwed up. It's a good excuse and a difficult truth to face at the same time.

 

But once touched by abuse during childhood, your personality and the horrific experience create an alloy. You're never the same anymore. You become a different person; in some ways better, in some ways worse, but your psyche acquires another shape as the traumatic influence presses it heavily

[Tenorman]

You have make yourself strong over time, push the huge weight up then throw it off the cliff and into the sea.

[RecordProducer]

You have to make yourself strong over time, push the huge weight up then throw it off the cliff and into the sea.

Very well put! And I think I have succeeded to do that or at least a big deal of it is gone. Happiness that comes later cures the pain from the past. Love beats hate.

 

But for many people it's hard to extract the bad metal from the alloy. It changes their lives completely.

[amaysngrace]

Would I go back to how I was again though? No. I accept that I'm forever changed by my abusive ex. It's not all bad to be this way. Perhaps one day I'll strive for a little more balance though.

 

I sometimes feel the same way. I have a lower threshold when it comes to being taken advantage of, or if someone says something I'd have let go years ago, I strike back. Not to try to make them feel bad, but more in an effort to save myself.

 

And lately once the ball gets rolling, I have a gloom outlook for a while.

 

I think I need balance too.

[Touche]

Well you know, Grace we can ALL stand to have more balance in our lives. But I tell ya, I'd rather err on the side of not being a doormat anymore...even if it means I'm not as forgiving as I once was.

[amaysngrace]

At this age, your dad is highly unlikely to start changing his behaviour....so you have to work with the status quo. I'm sure your dad loves you hugely, but he screwed up his job as a dad...and now it's down to you to start repairing some of the damage, bearing in mind that your dad doesn't have the skills and the emotional intelligence to sort out his own mistakes.

 

It's unfortunate but it's very true what you say, Lindya. Challenging him is nearly moot because he will turn tables every time.

 

I did butt heads with him last week, and took a stand against him. I felt better, stronger. But I also forgave him. I recognize he is limited in his thinking.

 

It's tiring to have to hold your ground and feel as though you need to prove yourself to one who is suppose to love you unconditionally. I have actually given up on trying to please him. I take from him what good he gives and hope to be able to leave the insults behind. But for the longest time, I had a real difficult time in seeing his flaws along with his strengths. He was either the 'best dad' or the 'worst dad'. Without any room for gray in my eyes.

 

Perhaps this is due to my belief that he views me in the same light.

[amaysngrace]

If you fixate on your father's affect on your tendency to have unhealthy relationships you will ensure that those unhealthy relationships will continue. Self fulfilling prophecy.

 

 

I'm past all of this as well. I don't believe what he says, although in a way he's correct, but I saw past it to recognize the 'why'. And I've found that I'm left with issues.

 

I find it very ironic that the one who has changed my thinking is the very one to challenge my choices.

 

Be that as it may, I know that only I can change my thinking from here on out.