Men in Long-Term Relationships Who Don't Want to Marry

[timidity99]

Ultimatiums do not work to get a man to marry you. Well they might work for the short term if he marries you because he fears losing you. I don't think a fear of losing your gf is a good reason to get married. The only good reason to get married is if you want kids.

 

I am living proof that an ultimatium does not work. My ex gf tried the ultimatium approach in hopes that it would inflame my desire to marry her but it did not work. I let her go. Was it painful? yes. This is probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do. But it would have been much harder for me to marry her and give up the comfortable lifestyle I'm living now.

 

My heartache will last only for a time. Getting married and taking on that responsibility will be a hardship of a lifetime. I'm hurting over the loss of my gf but at least I still have my freedom. I don't have to answer to anybody. Getting married is like joining the military. You are signing your life away. At least I was smart enough to count the cost.

 

It would be great to just date exclusively and never live together. That would be the best of both worlds. But if I have to choose between giving up my current freedom from responsibilities or giving up my gf I would and I did give up my gf. I don't want to be responsible for anyone else. I have no desire or intentions of having children either.

[overseas2004]

I hope it isnt too late to put my two cents in. A wise woman once told me that a woman does not get married when she is moving towards a relationship but away from one.

 

What that means is that you need to put some distance between yourselfs. If I were you, I would start looking for a new job in a new town. When you have one, announce to him that you are leaving.

 

And let him do the rest. TRUST ME... When I tell you that ultimatums and pushing dont work on them. They have their own timetable and things take time to sink into men. I wasted 12 years on someone. Yes I am an idiot.

 

When he finally did want to marry me, I didnt want to marry him anymore.

 

So now I am 38 and single. Wondering if I will ever have children. Dont go down teh same road.

 

And by teh way. I am here for you. Write me. [email protected]

[Guest]

i am in the same situation as you as well i have been with my partner for 10 years and we have to goureous little girls who share the same sir name as my partner and this really breaks my heart that we all dont share the same family name as we are a family but i am the one that is left out.

he knows i want to get married i have told him this many of times but he just does not seem to care about my feelings he never even talks about marraige he just brushes me of all the time.

he tells me that he loves me but i am starting to wonder does he really know what love means i have decided i am going to give him another 6 months to ask me and if he dosent he will lose me i need to be respected any ideas anyone

chris

sydney

[norajane]

i am in the same situation as you as well i have been with my partner for 10 years and we have to goureous little girls who share the same sir name as my partner and this really breaks my heart that we all dont share the same family name as we are a family but i am the one that is left out.

he knows i want to get married i have told him this many of times but he just does not seem to care about my feelings he never even talks about marraige he just brushes me of all the time.

he tells me that he loves me but i am starting to wonder does he really know what love means i have decided i am going to give him another 6 months to ask me and if he dosent he will lose me i need to be respected any ideas anyone

chris

sydney

 

If ten years and two children aren't enough to persuade him to marry, there's not much hope that he will, I'm afraid.

 

Did he ever talk about marriage during your relationship? Do you know why he's so opposed?

[Christopher 1]

As in any conversation about marraige, you will usually find the women PRO and the men CON. This isn't really surprising. Most rapists are pro rape, and most bank robbers are pro robbery.....

 

Seriously; contrary to what many men think- women aren't stupid. They lack honor, morality, integrity, compassion (for men), decency, etc., etc. ad nauseum. But, they are NOT stupid. Women know that marraige is generally a risk-free deal for them. If the marraige falls apart, and it is usually the women who makes that decision, then she will walk away with the house, the cars.....you name it. They can afford to be pro marraige. They have little to lose.

 

I'm 45, and have never been married. I live in a fairly expensive home that is long since paid for, and have two new Harley's. Not to brag, but this only possible because I have never considered sticking my head in that awful noose of marraige.

 

I have dozens of male friends and acquaintances that have been married, and all but two of them have been ruined by the divorce courts here in Oregon (USA). The two that are still married have confessed to me in private that they are terrified of their wives, and have been threatened with divorce and financial ruin of they didn't toe the line. This is no way to live.

 

Life is short. Too short to waste in fruitless endeavors. Thankfully, men are waking up to the awful scam marraige is today. In the past, a man stood to gain in some ways for his years of hard work maintaining a home for his wife and children. Such is not the case today.

 

Enjoy your cats, ladies. That's all you will have to comfort yourselves in your old age as wise bachelors fly off into the desert of eastern Oregon on their Harley's. Or wherever they may live......

[slinkysu]

As in any conversation about marraige, you will usually find the women PRO and the men CON. This isn't really surprising. Most rapists are pro rape, and most bank robbers are pro robbery.....

 

Righto - so you equate people who want to show their committment to each other via the sanctity of marriage to criminals? Pathetic.

 

Seriously; contrary to what many men think- women aren't stupid. They lack honor, morality, integrity, compassion (for men), decency, etc., etc. ad nauseum. But, they are NOT stupid. Women know that marraige is generally a risk-free deal for them. If the marraige falls apart, and it is usually the women who makes that decision, then she will walk away with the house, the cars.....you name it. They can afford to be pro marraige. They have little to lose.

 

Actually that's not true at all. women tend to lose their careers, their financial independance and a lot more when they marry as they are the natural child bearers and therefore lose a lot, but it's sacrifices they usually are willing to make for the sake of their marriage and family.

 

The only person here who seems to lack compassion, decency integrity etc is you, from this post.

 

I'm 45, and have never been married.

 

Now there is a surprise. Really? Shock. Horror.

 

I live in a fairly expensive home that is long since paid for, and have two new Harley's. Not to brag, but this only possible because I have never considered sticking my head in that awful noose of marraige.

 

I recently spent months sitting by my fathers bedside as he slowly ebbed away from a terminal disease. The last week in the hospital was the hardest, watching him battle for life when death was so close. It gave him real comfort to be able to say goodbye to us before the end and to have us there as he passed. Another very sick man was in the ward with him and he didn't have one single visitor as his life drifted away. he died alone. no family. no friends, just death. You may have 2 lovely harleys, but who will hold your hand in your darkest hour if you don't make a connection with people on a real and deep level during your lifetime?

 

I have dozens of male friends and acquaintances that have been married, and all but two of them have been ruined by the divorce courts here in Oregon (USA). The two that are still married have confessed to me in private that they are terrified of their wives, and have been threatened with divorce and financial ruin of they didn't toe the line. This is no way to live.

 

Life is short. Too short to waste in fruitless endeavors. Thankfully, men are waking up to the awful scam marraige is today. In the past, a man stood to gain in some ways for his years of hard work maintaining a home for his wife and children. Such is not the case today.

 

Maybe that says alot about the company you keep more than about marriage and what it means to a lot of other people? My parents were married 34 years, all my friends parents are together and all my friends who are married have remained together and very much in love. I have no friends who are divorced and only two divorces ever occured in our family over the last 100 year period. So for others in this world, the statistics are most certainly for marriage, not against.

 

Enjoy your cats, ladies. That's all you will have to comfort yourselves in your old age as wise bachelors fly off into the desert of eastern Oregon on their Harley's. Or wherever they may live......

 

Again -you may go to the desert but if you don't make connections in life as you go along, you die alone and leave nothing behind but a couple of old bikes....

[stillafool]

I am a married woman and I like it. I do not have children and I like that also. Personally, if I had a terminal disease and were facing death I wouldn't want people standing by who I didn't want to leave. I think it's a lot harder to face death when you look at your children and grandchildren knowing you will not see their future. I don't feel (for me) it's important to leave anything here when I go.

 

As far as marriage being so great for women - well statistics show single women live longer than married women and married men live longer than single men. So who is marriage really that great for?????

[slinkysu]

I am a married woman and I like it. I do not have children and I like that also. Personally, if I had a terminal disease and were facing death I wouldn't want people standing by who I didn't want to leave. I think it's a lot harder to face death when you look at your children and grandchildren knowing you will not see their future. I don't feel (for me) it's important to leave anything here when I go.

 

As far as marriage being so great for women - well statistics show single women live longer than married women and married men live longer than single men. So who is marriage really that great for?????

 

I guess each to their own. My father, although obviously wishing that he didn't get sick at his age (he was only 64) was content with his life. towards the end it wasn't a case of him not wanting to leave but not wanting to stay as he was so sick he had no quality of life and was bed ridden - what got him through was his family. He had lived a good life and left my brother and i with wise words and to him, and i guess to us as it is what has been instilled in us, we are his legacy and the legacy of all our forefathers. It wasn't hard for him to go - it was his time. We were lucky in that we got to share it with him and say goodbye and be with him until the end. But different horses for courses i guess. I know i would like to have family near me if i got sick or was dying.

 

I suppose if you come from a solid background you have a different view to the world than those who come from a less solid background. If most of your friends are divorced you get a different viewpoint on life than if all your friends were still together.

 

And in fact statistics prove that married men actually live longer so marriage is actually good for them! Mind you, am sure you can pull up statistics for nearly everything and get something to support an argument!

 

Marriage is good for men

[stillafool]

I remember when my mother was dying (in horrible pain) and her crying saying she didn't want to leave me my brothers and her grandsons. I felt sad for her and devasted by losing her. When my mother-in-law died she (unbearable pain) told her sons she couldn't bear the thought that she was going to die and not see her grandchildren. I come from a large loving family and my parents were together until my mom died. Still, me personally, don't feel a need to leave anything here when I'm gone. As a matter of fact it would kill me to see people standing over me crying the way me, my brothers, my nephews and my brothers-in-law cried over our moms.

[timidity99]

I guess each to their own. My father, although obviously wishing that he didn't get sick at his age (he was only 64) was content with his life. towards the end it wasn't a case of him not wanting to leave but not wanting to stay as he was so sick he had no quality of life and was bed ridden - what got him through was his family. He had lived a good life and left my brother and i with wise words and to him, and i guess to us as it is what has been instilled in us, we are his legacy and the legacy of all our forefathers. It wasn't hard for him to go - it was his time. We were lucky in that we got to share it with him and say goodbye and be with him until the end. But different horses for courses i guess. I know i would like to have family near me if i got sick or was dying.

 

I suppose if you come from a solid background you have a different view to the world than those who come from a less solid background. If most of your friends are divorced you get a different viewpoint on life than if all your friends were still together.

 

And in fact statistics prove that married men actually live longer so marriage is actually good for them! Mind you, am sure you can pull up statistics for nearly everything and get something to support an argument!

 

Marriage is good for men

 

 

Even if it's true that married men live longer who cares? I believe in quality over quantity. My goal is not to live as long as possible. Living for the sake of living is pointless. As long as I have good quality of life that's all that matters regardless of how short it is. We all have to die sometime. Makes no difference when. It's only a question of the quality of life. It makes no difference whether or not I have family and friends who will mourn my death. When I'm dead I'm dead and I won't be around to see my funereal if I ever have one.

[Christopher 1]

Slinkysu;

 

You asked if I "equate people who want to show their commitment to each other via the sanctity of marraige to criminals?"

 

No, I do not.

 

I spent most of my life first as a Mormon, then a fundy Baptist, (now a Deist) so my training has always been to be a strong supporter of marraige. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending upon your point of view, I have a strong sense of right and wrong. Morality. Honesty. COMMITMENT.

 

Women, for the most part, do not. Yes, yes. Most women want to get married. I am well aware of this. They simply don't want to STAY married. They want marraige, they just don't want the man. It takes a strong ethical and moral code to say to yourself, "I married this person. I gave my word. My integrity is on the line. Unless my spouse commits open and unrepentant adultery or is beating me to a bloody pulp, I'm going to HONOR my commitment and stay married."

 

This is a foreign concept to women today. When I voice my views to women, they look at me like I'm crazy. Possibly I am, but I will go to my grave with my standards intact.

 

I am not anti-woman. I am not a misogynist. I am simply disgusted by what women have become. They have lost everything that would cause a man to want to love and protect them. The truth be told, I would rather have had a wife and kids. I can't help this. But, I was never willing to lower my standards, not just for my sake, but for the sake of my children. I would settle for nothing but a decent woman to be the mother of my children. My daughters.

 

I have never met one.

 

American women know nothing of morality and fidelity. The vast majority are riddled with Sexually transmitted infections. Up to 80% have HPV- the virus that causes genital warts or cancer, and around 30% have genital herpes. This is unacceptable. Yes, I know. Men are infected, too. But I never planned on marrying a man. I am uninfected, because I am celibate. I was always saving myself for the "right woman". I never met her. She simply doesn't exist. I'm not complaining, really. At least I don't have to buy Valtrex, nor do I have to have any warts (ick) sliced off by the doctor.

 

Actually, I don't want anyone misunderstanding my comments. I am not anti-marraige in any sense of the word. I am ANTI-DIVORCE, and this is where I split the sheets with women. I am more pro-marraige than any woman because I believe that marraige is FOR LIFE, barring the exceptions I mentioned above. You don't abandon your spouse because you "aren't in love anymore", or you decided to bang the neighbor. You COMPROMISE, if not because of love, then because of HONOR!

 

Women, with only the rarest of exceptions, have no honor. They can't even begin to understand what I mean. When I mention the word to women, all I ever get is a blank look, and they quickly change the subject. They don't understand. They CAN'T understand.

 

Finally, I'm sorry to hear about your father. I took care of my mother from age 29 to 39, and kept her at home. Serious heart disease, diabetes, and of course, Alzheimers. Sigh.

 

Anyhoo, my intent was not to offend. Sometimes I come on too strong as I'm very passionate about what I believe in. I deplore the breakdown of the family, and I place at least 51% of the blame at the feet of women. The other 49% goes to men, for none of this would be happening if men would have the courage of their convictions (if they even have any convictions anymore) and refuse to marry women who care for no one but themselves.

 

Christopher

[crazy_grl]

I am not anti-woman. I am not a misogynist.

 

So you just talk like you are?

 

I am simply disgusted by what women have become. They have lost everything that would cause a man to want to love and protect them.

 

What exactly is that?

 

I feel really bad for you. I feel bitter toward men right now, but nowhere near the bitterness and disgust you've got toward women. I'm sorry you've never met a decent woman (or maybe you have and she was turned off by your attitude), but there are some out there. It's not too late to find one.

 

There are some points I almost agree with you on. One is that a lot of women are more interested in the act of getting married than in being married, but I disagree that it's because women have lost their honor/respect/what makes men want to love them/etc. I think it's because women are still programmed by society to believe that their main goal in life is to get a man. This comes from family, television/movies, etc.

 

The majority of women are not taught that they should make sure the guy they're marrying is the right guy for them. They are not taught to have a healthy fear of marriage (and I believe a certain degree of fear is healthy). It's not stressed to them that choosing the wrong guy could be disasterous. Our society mostly gives women the idea that their ultimate goal should be to get a ring. It's not stressed to women, like it is men, that they should make sure the person they're marrying is someone they really want to spend their life with.

 

So, many women get their ring, get married, and then find out after a few years that they don't really like the person they got married to, because they weren't taught what to look for in a man that makes a marriage work. Many years ago, they would have just stuck with it no matter how miserable they were (and possibly their husbands were), because divorce wasn't acceptable. Now, people will divorce when they're not happy. Yes, that's breaking their word and therefore dishonorable, but you have to make a choice of whether to be honorable or whether to live 40 more years of misery. Many choose "dishonor".

 

I think that once we as a society outgrows the notion that women should aim to be married, more women will start looking at marriage as the commitment it really is instead of expecting it to be a fairy tale/cure all for happiness.

[stillafool]

Slinkysu;

 

I am simply disgusted by what women have become. They have lost everything that would cause a man to want to love and protect them.

 

 

I'm just curious what is it we've lost. Could you be more specific here. Thank you.

[Woggle]

I know the truth hurts ladies but he speaks the truth. There are many women that are nothing like this but many many are exactly like he describes and the number is growing. Just loiok at some of the threads on this fourm and ask yourself why any man would want to take a gamble on marriage these days. Sometimes I wonder how sane I am for getting married myself but she was willing to sign a prenup that is almost 20 pages so that shows she has some honor. Women whine and whine about how there are no good men left but when a man does treat a woman right he gets left because she needs to find herself or because he isn't like some character in a romance novel 24/7.

 

It's even worse if a man and a woman has kids. She can leave him at any time for any reason and he will see his kids every other weekend if he is lucky but let him be one cent behind on CS payments and she will raise holy hell. Women these days are more drama and trouble than they are worth and it is always the good and decent men that get it the worst. Many men are finding it easier to just treat women like whores and dump them when we are done and I can't blame them. Women can't seem to get enough of you when you treat them like that but as soon as you give them what they say they want from a man they no longer have interest in you. It is a sick game I won't even attempt to understand but I want no part of it. Marriage for a man these days is like playing russian roulette with your life.

[Woggle]

Slinkysu;

 

 

 

 

I'm just curious what is it we've lost. Could you be more specific here. Thank you.

 

Nearly everything that used to make women attractive. Women these days embody all the worst stereotypes of men with none of the positive. They imitate what they think men are about because they think it will empower them but in reality they know nothing about men and only emulate the caricture they have in their mind of men.

[slinkysu]

Slinkysu;

 

You asked if I "equate people who want to show their commitment to each other via the sanctity of marraige to criminals?"

 

No, I do not.

 

I spent most of my life first as a Mormon, then a fundy Baptist, (now a Deist) so my training has always been to be a strong supporter of marraige. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending upon your point of view, I have a strong sense of right and wrong. Morality. Honesty. COMMITMENT.

 

Women, for the most part, do not. Yes, yes. Most women want to get married. I am well aware of this. They simply don't want to STAY married. They want marraige, they just don't want the man. It takes a strong ethical and moral code to say to yourself, "I married this person. I gave my word. My integrity is on the line. Unless my spouse commits open and unrepentant adultery or is beating me to a bloody pulp, I'm going to HONOR my commitment and stay married."

 

This is a foreign concept to women today. When I voice my views to women, they look at me like I'm crazy. Possibly I am, but I will go to my grave with my standards intact.

 

I am not anti-woman. I am not a misogynist. I am simply disgusted by what women have become. They have lost everything that would cause a man to want to love and protect them. The truth be told, I would rather have had a wife and kids. I can't help this. But, I was never willing to lower my standards, not just for my sake, but for the sake of my children. I would settle for nothing but a decent woman to be the mother of my children. My daughters.

 

I have never met one.

 

American women know nothing of morality and fidelity. The vast majority are riddled with Sexually transmitted infections. Up to 80% have HPV- the virus that causes genital warts or cancer, and around 30% have genital herpes. This is unacceptable. Yes, I know. Men are infected, too. But I never planned on marrying a man. I am uninfected, because I am celibate. I was always saving myself for the "right woman". I never met her. She simply doesn't exist. I'm not complaining, really. At least I don't have to buy Valtrex, nor do I have to have any warts (ick) sliced off by the doctor.

 

Actually, I don't want anyone misunderstanding my comments. I am not anti-marraige in any sense of the word. I am ANTI-DIVORCE, and this is where I split the sheets with women. I am more pro-marraige than any woman because I believe that marraige is FOR LIFE, barring the exceptions I mentioned above. You don't abandon your spouse because you "aren't in love anymore", or you decided to bang the neighbor. You COMPROMISE, if not because of love, then because of HONOR!

 

Women, with only the rarest of exceptions, have no honor. They can't even begin to understand what I mean. When I mention the word to women, all I ever get is a blank look, and they quickly change the subject. They don't understand. They CAN'T understand.

 

Finally, I'm sorry to hear about your father. I took care of my mother from age 29 to 39, and kept her at home. Serious heart disease, diabetes, and of course, Alzheimers. Sigh.

 

Anyhoo, my intent was not to offend. Sometimes I come on too strong as I'm very passionate about what I believe in. I deplore the breakdown of the family, and I place at least 51% of the blame at the feet of women. The other 49% goes to men, for none of this would be happening if men would have the courage of their convictions (if they even have any convictions anymore) and refuse to marry women who care for no one but themselves.

 

Christopher

 

I think that is one of the saddest things i have ever read and am sorry that you feel so poorly towards women.

 

My school motto was 'honour with dignity' and ,i and all my female friends, have always lived our lives by this. I come from a circle of friends who support, love and care for each other and so far divorce has not come near, as every relationship is a partnership with honour, dignity, integrity and truth.

 

There are so many amazing people out there, how sad to blinker yourself in such a way that you are blinded to seeing them.

[Christopher 1]

Ladies;

 

I suppose one of the many disadvantages of communicating on the internet is the inability to fully express your feelings (Eek! A man talking about feelings! Yes, we have them. lol) This involves the full range of facial expressions, hand movements, etc. In short, I am a very expressive person, and communicate far better in person. I feel handicapped trying to put my feelings out there in print, because the printed word just doesn't do them justice. Unlike most men, I have no trouble expressing my thoughts or feelings, and I have never felt it was an attribute to withdraw into myself. I draw the line at men crying, and just find that offensive when I see a man doing it, but I do talk freely.

 

I'm trapped in the house today while my main bathroom is being semi-remodeled, and I have nothing but time in front of the computer. I had planned on riding the Harley-Beasty, but no such luck. Grr. So, I shall try to offer my opinion as to how many men view marraige, romance and women these days. Maye it will help you to understand where many of us are coming from.

 

First, I'd like to address one point that frequently pops up when I offer any criticism of women in general. I am occasionally accused of being a misogynist. Heavens; nothing could be farther from the truth. It has become fashionable today to silence the opposition in almost any dispute by accusing the opponent of "hatred" or "bigotry" or "misogyny" or "anti-semitism". Gays do it. Blacks do it. Women do it. Jews do it. Even Christinas have jumped on the band wagon. I suppose even I have been guilty of it.

 

For the record, my two bestest female friends in the world (poor grammar, I know) are Jane and Helen, two recently transplanted New York Jewish lesbians that moved across the street from me last year. I love them to pieces, and the feelings are mutual. We have dinner and frequently barbecue on Saturdays. We often are up until 2am playing with their crazy Basset hounds, Blanch and Wilma. Oy. That's a story by itself.

 

One of my best friends is a Black man who is also quite gay. I'm helping him get through a nightmarish situation where he adopted an "un-adoptable" child a couple of years ago, and it fell apart. Another long, long story that I won't go into.

 

Also, my maternal grandfather was a Russian Jew, so I ain't anti-Jewish either. So there.

 

My point is to stress that I don't hate anyone. Period. Hatred of my fellow human beings is unacceptable under any circumstances. If you think I am hard on women, then you have yet to hear my opinions of MEN, or what passes for men these days. I have lost all respect for the majority of men today. Much of the problem stems from a society that no longer values manliness. Chivalry. Honor. Today's men are the product of a society gone badly awry, and it won't get any better. Most are weak and indecisive. Dishonest. Cowardly. Effeminate. Lazy. Rude. Immoral.

 

Criticism of an individual or group does not necessarily equate with hatred. Have you ever seen a child that is being disciplined by a parent grow furious and say....."You hate me!" A typical, knee-jerk response that hopes to evade the issue. "No, honey, I don't hate you. But you're being a JERK, and you need to be told!"

 

End of that issue. For the moment.

 

We live in a society that has shifted in so many ways since WW2. Women entered the work force during the war, and never really left. Opportunities for women abound, and I have no problem with that. I do not feel that women necessarily should stay home and be wives and mothers exclusively, any more than a man should be told (as they have for centuries) that his only real purpose in life is to support a wife and children regardless of the personal cost to himself. It's all about choices, and I am glad that it's becoming fashionable for both men and women to have the ability to do what makes them happy.

 

I am not threatened by women in the work force. My boss is a woman and a LADY and one of the nicest women you will ever meet. Her husband even works in the same department as I do, and a happier married man you will never meet. And a MAN he is. I know some very smart women who are advancing in their careers purely on their own merit. A lot of them.

 

Back to hatred.

 

Women accusing men of hatred is a lot like the pot calling the kettle black, as the old saying goes. I am a rather well-read person. I was a Mormon until I was 26 or so, and left because of my ability to reason things out and research issues. Unfortunately, I screwed up badly and became a wacko-fundy Baptist after that ( on the rebound, me thinks). But, that didn't stick either, as the old voice of reason caused me to question some of the insanity of Christian theology. Another long story that I won't go into.

 

The point is, most people who have a sheep-like quality. I question. Not for the sake of being rebellious. But for the sake of reason. Being a free-thinker, REASON is behind all of my pursuits.

 

I have studied and pondered women for years. Since I made the decision at a fairly young age to withdraw from women romantically, I have been able to study them from a safe-distance without having my vision or emotions clouded by sentimentalities or sex. I am celibate, and have never spent the night with one of the fairer sex, and never will. My pursuit of knowledge has always taken precendance.

 

I have read much literature that passes for misogynistic, and many points are well-made. I have also done what few men and women have done. I have read many of the works of feminist leaders. Brownmiller. Dworkin. Greer. Faludi. Steinem. And so many others. I know them. I have read their words, and have felt their feelings through the printed word. The one common thread that runs through most of their writings is an intense and rarely veiled hatred and contempt for men.

 

I have no desire to "keep women down". If a woman wants to be an lawyer or a ditch-digger or a stay at home mom- so be it. It's her life, and she should celebrate it in a way that fulfills her. This does not justify adultery or abandonment of family, though. Remember the issues of honor and commitment.

 

The red flag in feminism is HATRED. Hatred of men.

 

I can't help being born a man. It's not a bad thing, but it wasn't my choice. If I had it my way, I would be a strap-on toting lesbian. Seriously, I am what I am, and I have no control over that. Hating me because I'm a man is senseless. Just as hating a black because he is black is senseless. Or a gay. Or......anyone. We're just people that get to spend eighty or ninety years together on this rock. Maybe.

 

For decades the media and the universities have not been satisfied with advancing opportunities for women. They felt it was necessary to portray men as bumbling fools. Liars. Womanizers. Child-molestors. In the divorce courts, it is almost a given that the women will be given custody of the children. It is assumed that the woman is the better parent. Please don't say it's because men never fight for custody. That is another feminist fallacy. I know many fine men who have fought for custody, and lost to mothers who were, shall we say, unfit parents. The anti-male bigotry is rampant in society at all levels.

 

I have known dozens of men who have been ruined financialy and emotionally by the women they once adored, and often still do.

Men, in spite of the macho bravado we are forced to display, are very romantic, sensitive, emotional creatures. When a woman betrays a man, he often wants to curl up and die. A woman's capacity to crush the life out of a man is almost complete. And women do this without any remorse.

 

Indeed, women are perceived as being heartless and callous. Especially today. Was it really necessary to hate and villify men in order to "find yourselves"? I think not. But, the damage is done. Men have basically lost hope of any reconcilliation between the genders, and the chasm only widens.

 

"So what?", you say. Study history, my dears. Think in the long run. Think outside the box. Every great society has ultimately fallen...usually from within. The average age of great civilizations is around two-hundred years. Hegel once said, "What experience and history teach us is this: that people and government never have learned anything from history or acted on principles deduced from it". Winston Churchill said something to the effect that the one thing we have learned from history is that we don't learn from history.

 

What I am driving at is that we have become so SELFISH and CORRUPT as a people that we are doomed. Our society is only as strong as the families that support it. Our families are collapsing. What does the future hold? Look at Rome. Greece. Dust and ashes. A few columns and half collapsed buildings and aquaducts. Gone.

 

Why?

 

Read Gibbons "Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire", and you will see some startling comparisons.

 

As usual, I digress.

 

Back to a point I was trying to work my way into about the nature of women today and what they have lost. Women have become aggressive. Loud. Obnoxious. Boorish. Rude. Masculine.

 

As a man, it's built into him to want to have a woman to cherish and protect. To hold in his arms and let her know that no one will harm her in any way, and that he will always provide for her. To have her know that their children will always be protected and loved. The masculine and feminine go together and compliment each other. One is not better than the other. They are equally necessary and valuable. They are not to be in competition. They are ONE.

 

It's hard to have these feelings for a woman who is domineering and aggressive. The natural feelings of love and protection disappear when the wife is fighting for control of the home and her husband, and does little but criticize and belittle her husband and men in general. Eventually, most men retreat. You've heard about the marraige strike? You've heard women complain about men not committing?

 

Get used to it. It's only going to get worse. What women have done is to help create a generation of men who simply don't care any more. Have you ever seen men who push their way past women to go through a doorway or onto a bus? I see it increasing all of the time, and it makes me cringe. Remember the reports of men pushing women out of the way to get into the elevators on 911 in New York? Believe me, if the Titanic went down again, it wouldn't be women and children first. Is this desireable? Is this what you wanted? Do you even KNOW what you want? Do you like your new-found equality? Do you understand the next step is to be drafted into combat in war? Do you want this? I'm not saying you aren't capable. I'm saying DO YOU WANT THIS? Many women have been killed in Iraq.....and no one cares. Not a ripple in the press.

 

What have we come to when a society reaches this point?

 

I don't claim to have all of the answers. I'm just searching for truth. But if what we have now is the feminist utopia, then I think I'll pass. If it's what women want, so be it. They can have it. But, when you ladies are old and alone and there is no one around to care for you, or just sit and talk about times gone by, ask yourself if this war on men really brought you happiness. Maybe a double dose of Prozac will take away some of the pain.

 

Again, I have no desire to hurt anyone's feelings. I want to provoke people to think.

 

Christopher

[slinkysu]

Since when was war declared on men?

[Woggle]

Since when was war declared on men?

 

 

When the feminist movement came around in the 1970s. I was raised if you want to call it being raised by one of these feminist women and she had other feminists in the house all the time. These women hate men with the intensity that the Nazis hated jews. If they ever got in power there would be a Taliban type of state for men and no I am not exaggerating. I think after 30 years of women declaring war on our gender men just don't give a s*** anymore. We have given up and stopped trying to fight this war or resolve this issue.

 

I do acknowledge that changes needed to happen but was it needed to destroy 2 generations of men? Was it needed to deprive 2 generations of men with no makle guidence, no direction and nothing to look forward to? I hear older women complain that men my age don't know how to treat a woman and I just want to tell them off. Many men even think we deserve this. I used to think I deserved it when my mother beat me, screamed at me, degraded and abused me because I was born a boy instead of a girl. I did everything to make her love me and it was pointless. One day I snapped out of it and realized I deserved none of it. Ever since I took my blinders off I had a lot of anger towards women because so many of them are just like her.

[slinkysu]

I guess it is the way you are raised and educated. I was never raised to hate men and ferminism to me was taught about the EQUALITY of sexes. Equal pay for equal work and equal respect. It had NOTHING to do with HATING men and everything to do with LIBERATING women. Giving them the right to work, to earn their own money and to stand on their own two feet. To occupy their minds and contribute to society in many ways.

 

Christopher - I really don't see how you can say you understand women when you have never had a relationship wth one. You don't get to know or understand someone until you have a deep connection and i don't believe you could ever fully appreciate or understand women without experience. And i'm not just talking about sex but about intimacy and characteristics that make us unique in our sex, just as for us to fully understand men we need to have a connection and ultimately a deep respect for one another.

 

Again, different horses for courses, but it seems to sad to me to witness so much hostility from men towards women on this board. And so sad that you are missing out on life, choosing to opt out with intellect instead of joining in and experiencing a life filled with emotion and all the rollercoasters that come with that. Life is a ride - how sad to stand by and try to understand the mechanisms of the ride rather than hop aboard and experience the rush of the wind through your hair as your hands fly above your head and you are filled with giddy excitement as to what could possibly come around the next corner.

 

But thank you for your long explanation - i appreciate the time and length you took to explain your point of view, even if i do not agree with it and can not fully comprehend it.

[slinkysu]

When the feminist movement came around in the 1970s. I was raised if you want to call it being raised by one of these feminist women and she had other feminists in the house all the time. These women hate men with the intensity that the Nazis hated jews. If they ever got in power there would be a Taliban type of state for men and no I am not exaggerating. I think after 30 years of women declaring war on our gender men just don't give a s*** anymore. We have given up and stopped trying to fight this war or resolve this issue.

 

I do acknowledge that changes needed to happen but was it needed to destroy 2 generations of men? Was it needed to deprive 2 generations of men with no makle guidence, no direction and nothing to look forward to? I hear older women complain that men my age don't know how to treat a woman and I just want to tell them off. Many men even think we deserve this. I used to think I deserved it when my mother beat me, screamed at me, degraded and abused me because I was born a boy instead of a girl. I did everything to make her love me and it was pointless. One day I snapped out of it and realized I deserved none of it. Ever since I took my blinders off I had a lot of anger towards women because so many of them are just like her.

 

 

The feminist movement started way way earlier than the 1970's. The sufragettes fought for the right to vote at the beginning of the 1900's.

 

Aso - your mother was abusive because she was an abusive person, not because she was a feminist. Real feminists want equality not superiority. There is no superior sex - there are just human beings, half of which are male and half of which are female. neither has the right to oppress the other - it's peaceful harmony that women seek. Anyone who takes this further is a militant and an extremists. Just as you get christians, you also get christian fundamentalists. Just as you get any group of people, there will always be some who are ruled by anger and aggression and who take a point far beyond it's meaning.

 

If your mother beat you because you were a boy it was issues that your mother had. Not the feminist movement.

[Woggle]

I fully support that version of feminism. I know intelligent and successful women who don't feel the need to put down men in order to bring themselves up and I have the utmost respect for them. They have happy relationships and friendships with men and I am honored to have them as friends and I even engaged to a woman like that. That is not the version of feminism that won in the end though. The version that won is the one that teaches women that men in general are the enemy and never to trusted. It says that anything a man does is to oppress women. This is what is winning today and it is is ruining relations between the genders. Men and women my age barely even like each anymore. I have even heard of feminist teachers purposely sabotoging boys in school. How sick does a person have to be to target children.

[Woggle]

The feminist movement started way way earlier than the 1970's. The sufragettes fought for the right to vote at the beginning of the 1900's.

 

Aso - your mother was abusive because she was an abusive person, not because she was a feminist. Real feminists want equality not superiority. There is no superior sex - there are just human beings, half of which are male and half of which are female. neither has the right to oppress the other - it's peaceful harmony that women seek. Anyone who takes this further is a militant and an extremists. Just as you get christians, you also get christian fundamentalists. Just as you get any group of people, there will always be some who are ruled by anger and aggression and who take a point far beyond it's meaning.

 

If your mother beat you because you were a boy it was issues that your mother had. Not the feminist movement.

 

I used to listen to the meetings she held with her group and what I heard was truly frightening. Before the 1970s feminism was called suffereage and it was a noble cause that any decent person should ahve supported. During the 1970s though it was hijacked and we are living today with the damage they ahve inflicted. I don't know if you have read a book called THe Scum Manifesto but check it out to see what feminism has become today.

[slinkysu]

I fully support that version of feminism. I know intelligent and successful women who don't feel the need to put down men in order to bring themselves up and I have the utmost respect for them. They have happy relationships and friendships with men and I am honored to have them as friends and I even engaged to a woman like that. That is not the version of feminism that won in the end though. The version that won is the one that teaches women that men in general are the enemy and never to trusted. It says that anything a man does is to oppress women. This is what is winning today and it is is ruining relations between the genders. Men and women my age barely even like each anymore. I have even heard of feminist teachers purposely sabotoging boys in school. How sick does a person have to be to target children.

 

Again - who said it won? That may be what you believe but it isn't what i see or witness or believe. When you say you have heard of stories - have you witnessed them? Could they be urban myths? And again, think of how many millions of teachers there are out there - the majority are good, caring individuals who want to guide the next generation. There are a few terrible teachers, who may have ulterior, darker motives for working with children. There are many stories each year that appear about male teachers taking advantage of female students - should we then class all male teachers as paedophiles? No.

 

You say you know many women who have a positive viewpoint and good relationships with men (and many congratulations on your engagement) - this shows that there are just as many good women as bad. People come in all shapes, sizes and characteristics - good far outweighs bad, but people just tend to remember the bad and discard the good. The glass is half full if you choose to see it that way.

 

Women still have some way to go to reach equality in terms of equal pay and respect, but generally their success and hard work is what has broken glass ceilings, not aggression or violence.

 

To say that a darker feminist movement has won is, in my opinion, incorrect. We still lack equality in many ways, but are certainly a lot more fortunate than women at the beginning of the last century and perhaps at the beginning of the next century there will be harmonious equality and all this speak of sexual politics will just be some sort of anthorpological study case at higher learning institutions. One can but dream of utopia......

[crazy_grl]

The version that won is the one that teaches women that men in general are the enemy and never to trusted. It says that anything a man does is to oppress women. This is what is winning today and it is is ruining relations between the genders. Men and women my age barely even like each anymore. I have even heard of feminist teachers purposely sabotoging boys in school.

 

I agree with slinkysu. That's not what I've seen at all.

 

Woggle, I think your view of the world may have been skewed by how your mother treated you, so that when you see these negative things, they're amplified and appear to be everywhere.