A mans pov on booby staring?

[Becoming]

:lmao:

 

I'm sorry, but horses are easier. Think mule who's sitting in the middle of the road with an 18-wheeler approaching but refusing to move because he can't be bothered to turn his neck to see the thing coming and won't listen to you telling him it's there.

 

Once I started thinking of my H as a mule who wouldn't be moved without a big 2x4 dose of my reality upside his head (metaphorically speaking!), we started making progress. Yup, no nice, "Honey, would you, could you pretty please" would even register. That was just an annoying fly buzzing sound in his ear. No letter outlining the problem in bullet points. No angry forking and all-out verbal assaults worked. That just made it worse because then he could escape responsibility for his actions by blaming my bad behavior for them, and I was so messed up I fell for it. Leaving him a couple times and making him see I would--that 2x4 worked and scared him enough into starting to take me and my needs seriously.

 

Fortunately, we could both talk and he's a great guy in every other way so we worked it out. SLOOOOWLY.

 

Just take care of yourself and your needs. And don't let him turn everything around so that it's your fault. I heard, "You've dismissed me from your life; why should I bother?" BS. Dismissing him assumes he was there to begin with in anything other than physical form, and he wasn't. He placed himself there by his acts of omission, not me. I simply named what was from my POV.

 

Always keep the monkey on his back because he'll try to give it you, knowing you'll feed it and give it a good home. :lmao:

 

I have said to my H (and he's now getting it): "Ok, so if it didn't happen to you, it's not reality, right?" My perceptions were considered skewed perceptions; his are reality. Men are so used to having their perceptions considered normative reality iin this society that when women say their perceptions are different, we're the weird ones. And that's just sheer BS!

 

He needs to understand that his perceptions are not objective reality, that objective reality is a negotiated thing between many different perceptions of a situation. I'd be willing to lay money on the fact that he doesn't get this.

Because I've had the exact same conversation about the speed limit. :lmao:

 

Last night, I asked my H for his perspective on why he couldn't step up for years. And he said that he resented his mother doing everything for him for so many years that he knew he didn't want me doing it either but he didn't know what to do because that was normal for him and someone had always done it for him. So he just really did not know what to do to help himself or tell me even what he wanted and needed. So he was stuck and felt powerless to change--and completely unaware at the time that this is what was going on. Until I forced him into therapy with the ultimatum of leaving. Geez.

 

And the thing is, I think this guy's really worth all the trouble.

[a4a]

Yeah the speed limit thing made me laugh......

 

he did not see it so it is not real...... :lmao: :lmao:

 

I think that is very arrogant. ????

 

Well good thing his cell is off because I had a brief moment while doing OUR (moose see "our" ) laundry when I thought I should just pack and go.

And had an urge to call him and tell him to stick it.

 

and he is a mule and using the grain bucket to attempt to seduce him off the road does not work :lmao:

 

he needs to be beaten with a stick instead.

 

and interestingly enough our dinner plans fell through........ but he has something else in the works.....

 

I am sitting her looking around and seeing that he could not keep this place in order without me at all...... you should see the lawn :lmao: 4 days of strike and the place looks like it was abandoned.

[Walk]

Curious how long did it take for both of your X's to start their crap after marriage? I am wondering if confronting my problem as quickly as I am will make a difference or not?

 

I had a very slow awakening to the situation... but I'd say it started.. about 6 months after the wedding. He was absolutely awesome the first two months. Everything I could ever dream of in a relationship.

 

However, I didn't really see the big picture until a year or so into the marriage. I think that's when it really hit me.

 

My perceptions were considered skewed perceptions; his are reality.

 

This was my exh too. No matter what I said, how I said it, never mattered because unless I had concrete facts that I could hold in front of his face, then it wasn't reality. But how do you prove a feeling? Only way I could "prove" it existed was by leaving. Just saying I was going to if it didn't change, wasn't proof either. I had to physically walk out the door with the spoken intention of never coming back.

[a4a]

see the walk out is not an option if there is any hope of repair.

If I walk I do not look back.....

 

I don't believe he will change back or improve. I don't.

 

I am good to my word and I did say Oct. and that may actually suit me better, I can get the new house started and not move all at once that way.

 

(rut roh I am thinking about my needs......shame on me )

 

In the meantime I was thinking about our huge discussion of him not being aware of his actions that hurt me or make me happy.

 

and it boils down to the speed limit..... I tell him, ask him, talk, then yell.....but because it is not what would make him happy he is unable to see that it would make me happy.

 

If I have to tell him one more time about effort and planning I think I will puke.

 

how many days until oct 31st ?

[Guest]

hey, I read your email and I just wanted to add that you really should be blessed. Please take it as a great complament!!! in all he is telling you that his trust in you is not breakable!!! he probly feels like you are beautiful and that it is a good thing not only for him(that his wife is beautiful and that you will have self confindence.)but also for you. yes it feels good to know that your husband could be jelous but when that happens and he becomes jelious it is usly because he thinks you will cross the line and cheat!! I realy can not speak for him but it is a good thing that he lets that happen but I am sure of it if that person that is flirting crosses the line and asks for a number he will be the one to step up and say hey bud you might ought to think about who she is with. take it and be happy cause he does trust you and that he is ok with someone telling you, you are beautiful cause you could have a husband like mine that being married for as long as we have been and say ugly things like you ar fat and you are not pleasing to his eyes and does not touch you but maybe once every 6 months you will regreat it.but still when he says all these things be jelous to the point that you cant even go have dinner with the girls and he is mad has he** cause he thinks you were flirting due to his past relationships from where he is not confident in himself. Your husband seems like he is laid back and loves you very much and he probly is happy to see the flirting because it not only makes you feel good but him as well. Don't be mad be Glad cause I am sure it is a good thing. if you make a ant hill in to a mole hill over nothing he will and maybe change to something that you will be so regreatful that you will wish he was like he was in the start. hope I made some light for you thanks.

[a4a]

oh walk it is not even concrete facts.... I provide those yet he says it is not true

 

Fine example: I painted the living room and I had some trim that need to be painted... it was half done.

 

So I said yes I still have to paint the hall area, dining door area, and over the fireplace.

 

He says "the trim over the plasma and fireplace is already painted"

 

I said no.... it is not..... I did not paint it yet......

 

He says yes it is........ I say no I should know because I am the one doing the painting......

 

yes it is.......... so I say go look...... he looks at it from a distance and says yes it is..... again......

 

it was not I had to show him it was not painted.... it was raw dark wood not painted

 

:lmao:

[Becoming]

Yup, in an effort to elude the general principle you're trying to get them to see, they'll focus on refuting your proof. But hats off to your H. His denial is something else!

 

I didn't leave with the intention of ending it when I did. I left to take care of me and said to him I love you but you're killing me here, and I can't let that happen. When you want to listen to me and really take what I have to say seriously, which means as equally important as what you perceive, we can talk about where we want to go from here. I said it all rationally and calmly, picked up my bags, ignored the fluster, kissed him, and walked out. You can hardly imagine the freedom!

 

I laid down ground rules, too, under which I would relate to him. When he doesn't take my perceptions seriously, I end it by calling a time out and walk out, telling me he can contact me in x many minutes/hrs./days (depending upon how angry and flustered I am) and we'll talk.

 

I honestly made him up a chart that says in column 1: when you do this, column 2: I will do this. Posted it on the frig. That was helpful in getting him to see that his action or inaction led to consequences. The thing is you have to follow through with it and cheerfully remind him by pointing to the chart what it is you're doing. But after a few weeks of this, it began to dawn on him.

[a4a]

Yup, in an effort to elude the general principle you're trying to get them to see, they'll focus on refuting your proof. But hats off to your H. His denial is something else!

 

I didn't leave with the intention of ending it when I did. I left to take care of me and said to him I love you but you're killing me here, and I can't let that happen. When you want to listen to me and really take what I have to say seriously, which means as equally important to what you perceive, we can talk about where we want to go from here. I said it all rationally and calmly.

 

I laid down the ground rules, too, under which I would get into discussions with him. When he doesn't take my perceptions seriously, I end it by calling a time out and walk out, telling me he can contact me in x many minutes/hrs./days (depending upon how angry and flustered I am) and we'll talk.

 

I honestly made him up a chart that says in column 1: when you do this,

column 2 I will do this. Posted it on the frig. That was helpful in getting him to see that his action or inaction led to consequences. The thing is you have to follow through with it. But after a few weeks of this, it began to dawn.

 

 

Becoming can you do me a big favor and help me get that chart started.

 

I think it would work.

 

I also think I am so worn out right now that I just am about moments from walking out...... but on the way out I want to hurt him

 

Maybe the chart will help..... or a list of things I would like him to do for me?

 

He does not get why picking up flowers at the supermarket is not a huge thing to me... he thinks that is like IT! I explained to him the effort was not in it...... flowers are nice from the supermarket just because it is Thursday... but on a day that I want you to show you really care, and that you know I point blank said don't pick me up flowers..... does it.

 

He may as well swing through Burger King and get me a sack of cold fries for my birthday at the last minute.

 

and before anyone bashs...... more so those that spout off about EN's all the time, and how men need sex and the other crap........

 

THIS IS MY EN AND HE KNOWS IT! EFFORT AND PLANNING = caring in my view.... see this is my view not anyone elses, and maybe not his so he refuses to register it in his brain. It is not real........

 

where is my suitcase........

[2sunny]

If no one else wishes you a happy anniversary - I will at least wish it to you!

 

I hope it goes better than you anticipate.

 

Hugs to you a4a

[a4a]

I really feel like puking.....

 

maybe I am pregnant :lmao:

[a4a]

If no one else wishes you a happy anniversary - I will at least wish it to you!

 

I hope it goes better than you anticipate.

 

Hugs to you a4a

 

 

thank you Sunny...... really I mean it.... that was nice.

and kinda sad too.

[Moose]

"BA", standing for Becoming and a4a's Husband programming boot camp....

 

Seriously, I can see it now....these guys coming in and lining up, you two in fatigues and pointers shouting commands to a squad of husbands who's wifes want them conformed to comply to their every whim......

 

I'm the only male, (it seems like), posting in this one, and telling you, from a man's POV, THIS ISN"T GOING TO WORK.....

 

But.....of course you know it all, I don't know anything.......but it's sad watching you guys get all excited about it.....it's like watching a kid riding his bike for the second or third time attempting to ride down a gravel hill.....you just know he/she is going to bite it big time.....

[a4a]

"BA", standing for Becoming and a4a's Husband programming boot camp....

 

Seriously, I can see it now....these guys coming in and lining up, you two in fatigues and pointers shouting commands to a squad of husbands who's wifes want them conformed to comply to their every whim......

 

I'm the only male, (it seems like), posting in this one, and telling you, from a man's POV, THIS ISN"T GOING TO WORK.....

 

But.....of course you know it all, I don't know anything.......but it's sad watching you guys get all excited about it.....it's like watching a kid riding his bike for the second or third time attempting to ride down a gravel hill.....you just know he/she is going to bite it big time.....

 

funny moose it seems to be working.......then again I have to state YOU ARE NOT MY HUSBAND....... why is that so hard to get through your head?

 

You have completely different values, different background, and are different people so how in the hell can you keep coming back here stating THIS WOULD NOT WORK ON ME...............this is not about you moose... damn are you in need of that much attention or acceptance that you need to feel every man in the world is just like you? News buddy -thank goodness- they are not.

 

and my husband is not a drunk like you were either and that would make a huge difference and set of problems in this whole situation. That is a fact.

 

Unlike you if I went to the store and did not tell him..... he would go nuts... unlike your wife and kids being gone for 2 days and you not noticing......

 

Are you starting to see that this is NOT YOUR SITUATION YET? :rolleyes:

 

talk about being in denial of other peoples perspectives....

 

Moose the speed limit is 45 here :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[Becoming]

The anniversary is today? Don't let the anticipation of disappointment make it so, ok? (Or is that just me again? )

 

The chart is like helping them see relationships are like a dance. Actually--ballroom dancing lessons helped, too. He saw how he had to lead and communicate. And I saw how to let him lead instead of doing it myself. It became a great metaphor I could use because it related to his bodily reality.

 

Effort is HUGE in my eyes as well. I even looked up the old Cain and Abel story in Genesis 4. Basically, God refuses Cain's offering because there was no effort in it. He just picked up some fruit that had fallen on the ground (flowers and a card at the convenience store on the way home) and thought that ought to be good enough. Abel, OTOH, sacrificed the best, the most tender, the most of what he would have wanted to eat himself, the best potential breeding stock, and had to put some work into the offering by sacrificing and burning it. Abel's offering is accepted. Cain's is not. So Cain pouts by killing Abel. And there ya go.

 

I'll look up the chart as an example for you. It'll be full of the issues that were pertinent at the time to get him to see the consequences of his behavior or inaction. You'll have to put your own thought into what it is that needs to be communicated, but an example might help. A little anniversary gift.

 

Trust that his love is great than his denseness and see what happens.

 

I'm sorry this is happening to you. It really hurts.

[2sunny]

FYI Moose,

 

I AM NOT EXCITED TO SEE MY FRIENDS IN PAIN!

 

It hurts to stand by and try to change the pain - full well

knowing that you ultimately have no control on the

outcome.

 

I only wish happiness for a4a and her hubby, any support

that can lead her in that direction is why I am here.

 

A friend in need....

 

No criticism is needed, just support...

[a4a]

The anniversary is today? Don't let the anticipation of disappointment make it so, ok? (Or is that just me again? )

 

The chart is like helping them see relationships are like a dance. Actually--ballroom dancing lessons helped, too. He saw how he had to lead and communicate. And I saw how to let him lead instead of doing it myself. It became a great metaphor I could use because it related to his bodily reality.

 

Effort is HUGE in my eyes as well. I even looked up the old Cain and Abel story in Genesis 4. Basically, God refuses Cain's offering because there was no effort in it. He just picked up some fruit that had fallen on the ground (flowers and a card at the convenience store on the way home) and thought that ought to be good enough. Abel, OTOH, sacrificed the best, the most tender, the most of what he would have wanted to eat himself, the best potential breeding stock, and had to put some work into the offering by sacrificing and burning it. Abel's offering is accepted. Cain's is not. So Cain pouts by killing Abel. And there ya go.

 

I'll look up the chart as an example for you. It'll be full of the issues that were pertinent at the time to get him to see the consequences of his behavior or inaction. You'll have to put your own thought into what it is that needs to be communicated, but an example might help. A little anniversary gift.

 

Trust that his love is great than his denseness and see what happens.

 

I'm sorry this is happening to you. It really hurts.

 

 

oh what I would not give for him to take ballroom dancing with me... he knows......he refuses.

 

I suggested golf or some form of marshall arts... or even guitar lessons ( I play he does not) ...... I suggest..... he doesn't do it. I suggest things that he would like too..... fishing, go rent a boat for the weekend.

 

 

In the meantime I get ground fruit :lmao:

 

I told him again about the flower thing last night (ground fruit) it was a huge discussion. Examples of things I would say that I would be elated over..... I told him if he made me a macaroni necklace and it really took him that long to string the pasta and make it that would be nicer that anything he could buy me at a store...... and it would.

 

He drove by one of my favorite stores one day and got me one of my favorite organic choc bars.... $5 a bar.. .. you know that made me so happy that I did just about cry..... he had to turn around and look for the store because he couldn't find it..... it took effort and thought...... it was good.

 

So yes I have communicated nicely the effort thing since before we were married..... and his effort has gotten even worse...maybe the chart will help....

 

I need super nanny! And the dog whisperer......and that crocodile guy to help me with this one.

[Touche]

Moose, what skin off your back is it if A tries different ways of trying to save her marriage. Would it be better if she just gave up and walked away now?

 

Maybe and maybe not. No one can say that with any certainty. At least be open to the idea that A is trying everything in her power and that if it fails, she'll have no regrets. She'll know that she tried. And she'll know that her H didn't or couldn't.

 

But on the flip side, she MIGHT get through. They MIGHT make progress.

 

My H and I went through a couple of rough times together...the last time being about 4 years ago. We tried Dr. Phil's book. We worked the excercises and changed the way we were starting to relate to each other.

 

Guess what? It WORKED! We haven't had any serious problems with each other or our marriage since.

 

I respect a lot of your views, Moose but you're being too judgemental on this. Is that the "Christan" way? Is gloating about someone's perceived failure the Christian way? Is being negative and saying her efforts WON'T WORK the Christian way? Is making a mockery and joking about A's marriage (the guys in fatigues, etc.) the Christian way?

 

If so...I'm happier than ever that I'm NOT a Christian!

 

And here I always thought they preached supporting your fellow man. Guess I was mistaken.

[Moose]

I know it's not my situation, and my situation had other elements involved, and I'm not your husband......BUT, I am a man for crying out loud.....

 

A man that's been through what your husband is going through right now. Why can't YOU understand that?

 

2sunny, I'm not either, that's exactly why I'm trying to get these people to see it through what could be a4a's husbands POV.

 

They can say I'm not him all they want, and they of course are correct....however, I am a MAN, who went THROUGH THIS.

 

Go ahead and ignore me. Just know this, when the appointed D-day comes around, and you find out all of this was done in vain, remember I was the one who offered you help, and you chose to ignore me.....

 

If you TRULY love him, and want him to grow for his own well being, let him fail. Let him fall. Don't be there for him at all.

 

He's not going to change until he there is nowhere else to go but up, and ON HIS OWN......

 

I'm done with this......

[2sunny]

Actually, most folks change only when they are forced to be so uncomfortable that they have no other options....

[a4a]

 

I'm done with this......

 

amen to that!

[Moose]

I respect a lot of your views, Moose but you're being too judgemental on this. Is that the "Christan" way? Is gloating about someone's perceived failure the Christian way? Is being negative and saying her efforts WON'T WORK the Christian way? Is making a mockery and joking about A's marriage (the guys in fatigues, etc.) the Christian way?

Whoops, I said I was done, but I have to respond to this one.....

 

My goal is save this marriage, and avoid heartbreak. My comments may sound harsh, but everything I've posted happened to me, and it's what saved MY marriage, and made it stronger than it could've ever been.

 

I want these two to have what we have. I want everyone to have what we have.....yes this is my, "Christian", way.....

 

Tough love....

[a4a]

Actually, most folks change only when they are forced to be so uncomfortable that they have no other options....

 

I believe this... thus hit rock bottom.....thus me not being nice anymore and doing everything for him....or being treated as nothing.

 

everything is now on his shoulders.... I tell ya, for the first time I can sit here and not be worried about what I should do for him today to make him happy.

 

I don't want to give him a massage..... or even a bj

I don't care if he runs out of underwear.....

I don't care if he eats dinner. ( I did breakdown and bring food into the house)

I don't care if the dish TV gets turned off......

I don't care if he did not pay his cell phone bill

I don't care........ until he shows me he cares.

enough is enough and hell no I am not going to sit here and take this crap for years or allow him to destroy all I have worked for..... and destroy my chances of reaching my goals... for that matter OUR GOALS.

 

His love "bank acct" with me is way way way overdrawn..... either he pays up or I close the acct.

[Mz. Pixie]

A man that's been through what your husband is going through right now. Why can't YOU understand that?

 

 

But you were an alcoholic correct Moose?? Did your wife start to let you fall flat on your face when she started going to Alanon?? Or what exactly turned it around??

 

A- it took my ex about five years. Actually it was probably much sooner but I didn't really notice it as much until we had kids. We'd been married five years when the first one came along. Before that. we could basically each do our own thing- and if he wasn't home it wasn't that huge of a deal. Once the kids came along it was really rough- because he wouldn't put us first- and it began to bother me more when I was pregnant with the second one. I was ill and on bedrest and I couldn't get him to step up to the plate without complaining about how hard it was on him. Here I was trying not to MISCARRY his child- waking myself up every four hours to take medicine that was horrible on my body- and too weak to take a shower by myself and it was hard on him??

 

And I hung in there for another eight. Eight years of saying that we needed marriage counseling- eight years of me buying books and asking us to read them together eight years of him promising to change and put me first for a change. Only to have my words turned around on me- we didn't have a problem, it was my problem- yada yada. He couldn't even put our kids first. He never concerned himself with whether or not they had clothes or shoes- as long as he had the latest hunting or fishing gadget- and he left the rest to me.

 

I think I was pretty damn patient. Of course God calls for me to be more patient but I believe he knows I'm not as good as He is.

[hotgurl]

oh here is a kicker..... I think it does hit on something.

We are driving along in a highly patrolled area the speed limit drops..... I say the speed limit here is 45....... he says to me "where is the sign?"

 

ahhhhhh....... doh..... he knows I drive this road every other day.... I know this road I have driven on it for 5 years... a cop sits on the corner ahead with radar..... yet wants to know where the sign it that says 45...... X SQUEEZE MMMME.....

 

I wonder if this is a guy thing. My Boyfriend sometimes won't believe me. I will say x and he'll disregard it until someone else tells him.

 

For example we are remodeling the bathroom and the floor has this gross mildew carpet. So he thought lets do the floor now and than the rest. But we are gutting the whole thing and moving around stuff. I said we can't do that unless it's a temporary solution. He so didn't believe me untilt he contractor told him the same thing.

[Becoming]

Here's what I wrote to H that I had copied into my journal. We actually set up a VISUAL love bank like behavior modification for children, which worked somewhat, though it sounds kinda crazy. This was over a year ago, and it helped him make the connections where previously, the bridge was out.

 

You want rational. Here it is, categorized as requested. This is it, all cards on table, nothing hidden. And this is pretty much as it has been from the beginning, though it wasn’t articulated clearly at that time. This is chart form of what I have been articulating for ~15 years, though.

 

If something on here is not what you want, it is your responsibility to say so, not mine.

 

I would welcome something similar from you. You were right: this is a good idea. I suggest we set up a visual love bank for each of us. Behavior modification works for kids, and that’s where both of us are with this, so why not?

 

Removal=removal of myself from situation as far as necessary for me to stay sane (which could mean 500 miles)

 

Unacceptable Behavior Consequence that Will Result

Yelling—even in tone of voice 1 Reminder, then removal

50/50 dependability—not doing 1 Reminder, then withdrawal from love

what sd. would do bank and lack of respect in my eyes

Sarcastic put-downs Exposure, lack of respect

Minimizations of my wants & feelings Exposure, major w/drwl from love bank,

thru lack of attn. When brought removal!

up or verbal put-downs or

piggybacking his issues onto mine

at expense of mine

Raising an issue that bothers me Exposure, major withdrawal from

only to end up “slapped” in return love bank, removal

w/ gaslighting or blame w/o my initial

problem being addressed

Deceit/hiding/equivocation/lying Exposure and appropriate measures

taken to secure myself in my truth

which will not include your reality at

all!

Excuses/"But I meant well!" Exposure, lack of respect, removal

Fluster-buster unreality BSing Exposure, 1 warning, removal

Intimacy baiting/Sexual teasing Major withdrawal from love bank,

with lack of follow-through removal to guest bedroom

Lack of consideration of my input Exposure, 1 warning, removal

in decision-making

Being hit with sulky silence Major withdrawal from love bank

 

 

Continued major withdrawals from love bank will result in uneasy relationality and turmoil and torment until I am ready to leave with no further advance notice.

 

This chart was accompanied by a list of things that he could do to make regular deposits in my love bank as well. We went on to quantify all this, like "initiating sex"=5 marbles. Planning an elaborate date (more than the usual dinner and/or movie)=10 marbles. Planning a special weekend away arranging for all children and pets to be cared for=25 marbles, etc. A compliment got 1 or whatever.

 

We actually had a jar for each of us that was a love bank. :lmao: I know, but it worked! Especially the day he made me so livid I just walked in, pointed at the chart, took his love bank with all the marbles he'd earned for doing good things for me and dumped them all in the floor in front of him and walked out!

 

We worked on refining the system later. I just kept pointing to the chart and telling him why marbles were being put in or out of his love bank, as he did to me (and there were some surprises for me!) It became a silly game we made fun of even as we had to admit it worked.

 

I only wish we'd done this a year in. It helped him see what counted, and that was really helpful, because men really want to please us. They're just often clueless about what counts in our eyes, and we have to tell them, as they do us.

 

One of the best gifts you could give him is a list of what counts as an acceptable love offering to you. If you haven't already, explain the love bank concept to him. And what happens when he's overdrawn. Declare an amnesty tonight, and start over, dropping marbles in his jar for all the good things he is/does in front of him, building him up. Then tell him what causes withdrawals by approximate amts., too, and ask for the same from him for you.

 

All the best to you. And here's hoping there's a next anniversary that'll be even better.