My God...I hurt SO bad!!!

[jwmorgan]

Hi, T

 

I've been reading your threads and my heart goes out to you. I was in a similar position but my relationship lasted nearly 2 years, in which time the man asked me to marry him, told everyone how much he loved me etc etc, then, when I needed him most, just before I had a serious operation, I found out that he'd been cheating on me pretty much all year (and probably the year before but I had no evidence) and not just with one woman. It's a long story but what I'm saying about missing the point is this: this other woman isn't the issue, HE is. Sad to say, if it wasn't her it would be someone else and that means that he didn't love you - he's probably incapable of it. Don't waste your thoughts on him - easier said than done, as I know from hard experience - but work hard, rely on your friends and you will get through this. Use it as a good experience, not one which will make you suspicious of all men. Also, remember that this man is an alcoholic, so isn't stable mentally. (Mine was an undiagnosed one). You are worth far more than him and can now develop into the person you can potentially be. Believe me, you will look back in a year's time and wonder why you let it occupy so much of your time. It's now been 3 months and the pain has lessened, hasn't it, if only a bit? That will just improve and improve until it's gone. I literally thought I was going to go mad when it happened and now I go whole hours at a time when I don't think about us. Hope that helps.

 

J

[B-3128]

Aww... why does nobody ever feel sorry for me?!?!?!?! My nasty story thread plunged after a day - I think only T read it! Alas, I must be a big strong boy...

 

T, he probably knows what's going on already and is deluding himself. You're about the worst person to get involved with this mess because you could be cast as the jealous ex and he could see it the wrong way. On this one, I would say leave it. You do care about him, but you are not well placed to look after him. Someone else is, and God willing they will.

 

I haven't heard anything from the ex yet, though I haven't checked my mailbox today. To be honest, I'm half expecting her to not reply. I can live with that.

 

B

[Greensleaves]

She is short, chunky, sloppy and still manages to find ample opportunities to cheat on all five husbands? The world is strange indeed. She must have a potion, because it cannot really be her personality (druggie, abandoned kids, not being able to look after herself) that sparkles and makes up for the homely side.

 

Hmm, your Ex for sure behaves like a coward. Yepp, obviously he is scared and doesn't want to face the questions even though he seems to want to talk to you. But if he doesn't manage to get his act together nothing will happen or change.

 

 

Thank you so much, Green. I can only hope to walk out as a winner. But I would be lying to you and myself if I said I don't miss him. I do. Yeah, I know...it's nuts. After what he did I don't think anybody would blame me for hating him. And sometimes I do feel hate. But as they say, hate and love are closely related. It's an emotional yo-yo I seem to be on and I hate it. Like everybody here, I hope to have a happy ending. I hope my life unfolds unto something better. I hope I can look back at all of this with no regrets.

 

Guess time will tell...

 

Green, did you get my private message to you?

 

~T~

 

Thanks, I did get the note. Ach you know, it is not really nuts that you still miss him, you loved him a lot, you thought your relationship had greatest potential as obviously he said he loved you dearly and wanted to stay with you. it is difficult to part with this picture in your head, I know what I am talking about as I find it very difficult, too. I guess only time will help. Though as you said, some scars are difficult to heal or might never heal. It gets increasingly difficult to trust again. Especially when they repeated frequently that they want to stay with you forever and then poof from one day to the other let the bubble burst and forever ends up being a eight months or in my case 27 months. Surely one knows about the "forever" thing not necessarily meaning forever, but for sure one would expect it to exceed a few years, at least I do.

 

Your story is particular tragic (B, I am not saying yours is not, too ) as it seems as if the whole thing might have gone very different if not some strange events lead to another: e.g. you being on a break, borderline perking up, husband throwing her out etc etc. What's the best in the long run nobody will know at this particular point in time. Just hope that it all happens for a reason and you will find greater happiness after everything has been left behind, but I know it is difficult to stay positive and trying to see the greater picture.

 

Take care, Tormented, hope you will have some better news soon.

 

Green

[Greensleaves]

 

I haven't heard anything from the ex yet, though I haven't checked my mailbox today. To be honest, I'm half expecting her to not reply. I can live with that.

 

B

 

So does that mean you sent the card and asked her to grab a burger?

 

Green

[B-3128]

Hey Guys, Green, yes, I sent her a birthday card and asked her if she wanted to grab a burger. We met up yesterday. Was about 35% weird (proportion of time). That said, I think we do "naturally" get on well, so it was fine for the mostpart. I really really see through her now and see what lies beneath every reaction and every comment. It's different to how it was before when I was much more blind. That said, I noticed some things about her that haven't changed. Some of the underlying convictions and characteristics. Her BPD sucked me in with my low self-esteem. Always trying harder and harder etc. and always feeling bad about how it was never good enough.

 

She was very apologetic for all she did. In fact, she was surprised that I was even willing to see her after all she put me through. The burger was tasty, and we had hot chocolate afterwards - it was cold!

 

Mr Beta got dumped a week ago. She said she was happier now she had done that. Seems that I unknowingly timed my rappochement to coincide with a turbulent time. Better be careful!

 

B

[Greensleaves]

That's actually not too bad at all, B. 35% weird only, I guess that is a start. Good that she feels sorry for everything she put you through, so at least she kinda cares. It is true, though, you have to watch out now, given that she dumped Mr Beta you might end up in the line of fire again which for sure is not where you want to be after all your hard work, I guess it helps that you can read her easier now ...

 

I talked to my previous Ex that I have been on NC (imposed by him) for more than 2,5 years. That was kinda nice (we talked on the phone for more than three hours!), but also maybe 35% weird. Am a bit confused now on what to think as it came out of the blue, but it is nice to know that after three years there is still common ground to cover....

[Tormented]

It sounds like you still care about him *Tormented.

 

Yes and no. Yes...for the "friend" I had in him and the good memories we shared. No...for the hurt he inflicted and continues to inflict. Make sense?

 

Now as long as you have no residual feelings for him , then this should be fine to be concerned that he does not take a destructive path towards death or suicide. Not to say its on his mind but he has quite a past and has lost you for good.

 

He does seem to be on a destructive path. He once told me that he has never cared about himself, but when he is with somebody he loves, then his life becomes worth living. Sad, isn't it?

 

It is NOT your fault if he wallows in depression, wrecks his logging truck , feels bitter mean and nasty towards life. It is YOUR responsibility to move forward and if a giant boulder crushes him and his spirit then that was the path for him.

 

You're right, of course. It is NOT my responsibility. He's a big boy now...and his life is HIS responsibility. My caring about what happens to him has more to do with MY nature than any love I may have for him. I hate seeing anybody ruin their life, it's just the way I'm wired. But I have to cut it loose...stay as far away from this mess as I can. There's nothing I can do about it. To be honest, Mary, I honestly don't want to know what's going on with him. It's not healthy for ME.

 

Of course you care and if you want to care about him then thats fine. You sound so very stable and level headed. He is on the destructive path in life. You can only watch from the sidelines.....

 

You know, I AM a stable woman in most areas of my life. I've been described as "level-headed, reasonable, responsible," and on occasion, "brutally blunt." So, why is it that the above traits abandon me in this case? I have maintained NC throughout this whole ordeal, I just wish he would do the same. It'll be 3 months on the 26th of this months....and STILL the silent calls continue.

 

Just what the hell does he want from me???

 

~T~

[Tormented]

I was in a similar position but my relationship lasted nearly 2 years, in which time the man asked me to marry him, told everyone how much he loved me etc etc, then, when I needed him most, just before I had a serious operation, I found out that he'd been cheating on me pretty much all year (and probably the year before but I had no evidence) and not just with one woman.

 

Oh yes, I know this song and dance well. Only difference here is that my ex never cheated on me (and the ONLY reason I am certain of this is because he spent every non-working hour with me), and when he hooked up with the borderline ex-g/f, he and I were technically broken up...had been for 3 weeks. I had walked out on him for reasons too long and complicated to list here, but I saw no other way. He kept telling me the morning I packed my things that I was "making a mistake," and kept saying..."just remember, YOU are walking out on ME." He became very tearful, then left the house while I was packing, and I later found out he drove to his sisters house and proceded to pick a fight with his brother-in-law and attacked him physically. He didn't take the break-up well. So, I don't know if he hooked up with her out of spite to hurt me, or if he truly loved her, or out of fear of being alone. Guess I'll never really know, and to be honest, I don't WANT to know...not anymore. For whatever reason he did it, there has been permanent damage done and any chances of reconciliation have been completely destroyed. I could never trust him nor feel the same about him again. He's GOT to know this, so why he calls here and sits silently on the phone is beyond me. With the exception of one call from me telling him to either speak up when he calls or to stop calling, I have never contacted him...not once. I wish he'd do the same.

 

It's a long story but what I'm saying about missing the point is this: this other woman isn't the issue, HE is. Sad to say, if it wasn't her it would be someone else and that means that he didn't love you - he's probably incapable of it.

 

You're spot on that the issue is HIM, not her. Which is why I walked out on him prior to hooking up with her. However, don't know that I agree that he would have hooked up with anybody else had I chosen to stay. He wasn't the cheating type...but he IS a very spiteful man, especially so when he's been hurt. His thought process is often bizarre...believing that he's the victim when things go awry, refusing to take responsiblity for HIS part in it. And this is just one amongst several reasons I left him.

 

Don't waste your thoughts on him - easier said than done, as I know from hard experience - but work hard, rely on your friends and you will get through this. Use it as a good experience, not one which will make you suspicious of all men. Also, remember that this man is an alcoholic, so isn't stable mentally. (Mine was an undiagnosed one). You are worth far more than him and can now develop into the person you can potentially be. Believe me, you will look back in a year's time and wonder why you let it occupy so much of your time. It's now been 3 months and the pain has lessened, hasn't it, if only a bit? That will just improve and improve until it's gone. I literally thought I was going to go mad when it happened and now I go whole hours at a time when I don't think about us. Hope that helps.

 

Thank you, JW. You know, I've been through breakups before, and although each were unique and caused some pain, none of them compare to the pain of this one. I've had plenty of time to analyze as to why this is, and the simple truth is...I STILL don't know. Something about him - about US - that got deeply under my skin, and heart. Strange, I've been in relationships that lasted much longer than this one (including my marriage), yet I healed from them much easier than this one. Yes, the pain has lessened some (or, at least, has reached a tolerable level), but I'm not quite there yet. Thoughts of him still march through my mind several times a day and it's maddening. I know he doesn't deserve so much as a second in my mind, but how, exactly, do you turn that off? Doesn't seem to be a "at-will" thing, does it? God knows I've tried everything under the sun to purge these thoughts from my mind and heart, and sometimes I'm successful, but many times I'm not.

 

How long have you been broken up with you ex, JW? And how long did it take to reach the level of recovery that you have? And has there been any contact between you and your ex since then?

 

~T~

[Tormented]

Aww... why does nobody ever feel sorry for me?!?!?!?!

 

I do...I do!!!

 

::::reaching out to give B a big hug::::

 

There now, is that better?

 

T, he probably knows what's going on already and is deluding himself. You're about the worst person to get involved with this mess because you could be cast as the jealous ex and he could see it the wrong way. On this one, I would say leave it. You do care about him, but you are not well placed to look after him. Someone else is, and God willing they will.

 

Yeah, I reached the same conclusion. Sooner or later, he'll find out, if he doesn't already know. But then, he may not care. Who knows? In any case, it's not my bees wax nor responsibility...I owe him nothing. He walked in to this fully knowing what she's capable of, so it's his problem to deal with. And really, should he be surprised by it? I mean, if you pick up a snake and it bites you - you've only got but yourself to blame for picking the freakn' thing up in the first place. It's all about action and consequence...but it was NOT my action, nor is it MY consequence to deal with. This one belongs solely to HIM.

 

Now then...on to your next post. Got some questions and statements on that one....

 

~T~

[Tormented]

She is short, chunky, sloppy and still manages to find ample opportunities to cheat on all five husbands?

 

Ha! Maybe she wasn't always so chunky and sloppy??? But she sure in the hell is now!

 

The world is strange indeed. She must have a potion, because it cannot really be her personality (druggie, abandoned kids, not being able to look after herself) that sparkles and makes up for the homely side.

 

Or perhaps it's something else...as in - <ahem>...outstanding performance in the "oral" department?? Yeah, I know...that was a crude remark, but hey - could be an element of truth to it. I mean, she's got to have SOMETHING to offer, right?

 

:::slapping myself for that crude remark::::

 

Hmm, your Ex for sure behaves like a coward. Yepp, obviously he is scared and doesn't want to face the questions even though he seems to want to talk to you. But if he doesn't manage to get his act together nothing will happen or change.

 

Oh, something will change - either for the better or worse in his life. Hopefully he'll grow some brains and wise up to what he's doing. I think, though, he already knows he's eyeball-deep in a pile of dung, but he'll have to dig HIMSELF out seeing as how he buried himself in it. I hope he realizes by now that I won't be showing up with a shovel to help.

 

Thanks, I did get the note. Ach you know, it is not really nuts that you still miss him, you loved him a lot, you thought your relationship had greatest potential as obviously he said he loved you dearly and wanted to stay with you. it is difficult to part with this picture in your head, I know what I am talking about as I find it very difficult, too. I guess only time will help.

 

Thank you for that, Green. I know many people here who have read, and responded to my posts think I'm absolutely nuts for caring about him. Ha...yeah. Does seem nuts, doesn't it?

 

But you know, love is a very powerful emotion/feeling. If it's genuine, it won't die easily or swiftly. Everytime you fall in love that's the risk you take. To love somebody is to empower them with your heart and trust. If it was possible to "kill" the love you have for them overnight, or within a time frame allotted by others, then I question the substance/genuineness of that love. Hell, if that were the case - if it were that easy then there would be no risk at all, nor any need for boards such as this.

 

Truth is - it's NOT that easy. Oh, how I wish it were, though. I do have the strength to stay away from him. I have the good sense to know that I can never go back to him, or do anything that would harm me in the end. But to maintain that strength, I come here...sometimes to vent, sometimes to bleed, sometimes to give advice, which, in the long run, helps me as well.

 

I guess I'm just not strong enough to do it silently. This board is like my battery-charger in times that I feel weak, when I am struggling and feelings as though I am losing my grip. This board, and the people here have been an absolute godsend for me. It truly has.

 

Though as you said, some scars are difficult to heal or might never heal. It gets increasingly difficult to trust again. Especially when they repeated frequently that they want to stay with you forever and then poof from one day to the other let the bubble burst and forever ends up being a eight months or in my case 27 months. Surely one knows about the "forever" thing not necessarily meaning forever, but for sure one would expect it to exceed a few years, at least I do.

 

You know, there's a lot of truth to this. It is true that although some wounds scar over eventually, they will remain for the rest of your life. And unfortunately, that just may be the case here. Or not...not will only tell. I think what hurts the most here is that at one point in this relationship, I felt a deep joy and secure. I honestly believed that I had found a "life-long" mate in this one. I thought my days of searching, of being alone was over. That I could take peace in knowing that the remainder of my days would be spent in good company, with a man whom I thought would love me through both good times and bad. In other words, I allowed myself to exhale...to tear down my wall and emerge my world with his.

 

And then...CA-BAM. It's gone, nothing more than a phantom of what I THOUGHT I had. And it's getting over the disappointment of what will never be that I struggle with. But then, I guess that could be said of us all. I've no doubt that just about everybody on this board is struggling with the same thing. The dream we seeked coming within reach, only to have it snatched away. A very cruel trick to play on the heart. But then, love often is, isn't it?

 

I've been getting the "silent" calls again, although I thought perhaps they would stop after my last message to him. The calls did stop for about a week but have started up again this past week. And then, I got a very strange call this morning. From a woman by the name of "Red" who said..."Hi Bill, this is Red. I hope this is still your number. We will be passing through, and will call you later tonight. Our number is..."

 

Now, he hasn't lived here in almost a year. In fact, I was living there most the time, so why somebody would call here for him out of the blue is strange. Knowing him the way I do, I think he put this person up to calling here with the hope that I'd return her call to inform her that he doesn't live here, and in doing so, would give her the chance to chat with me, find out where I'm at with him, how I'm feeling about him, what I'm doing in life. I know this man, and I know how he operates. And yes, this would be something he'd do.

 

I will not be returning that call, of course. But she said she'd be calling back this evening. I won't be answering.

 

Could very well be an innocent call, but I doubt it. Why, after all this time, would somebody be calling here for him? Strange...

 

Your story is particular tragic (B, I am not saying yours is not, too ) as it seems as if the whole thing might have gone very different if not some strange events lead to another: e.g. you being on a break, borderline perking up, husband throwing her out etc etc. What's the best in the long run nobody will know at this particular point in time. Just hope that it all happens for a reason and you will find greater happiness after everything has been left behind, but I know it is difficult to stay positive and trying to see the greater picture.

 

Yes, B's story is every bit as tragic and hearbreaking as mine. In fact, that can be said of many posters here. We ALL hurt the same. We are ALL dealing with broken hearts and dreams...and it hurts deeply.

 

A bad twist in fate, a wrong turn, a spoken word or deed that shattered all hopes, misunderstandings - all can lead to the hell we are all living, although, not forever. Just feels that way sometimes.

 

Like everybody here, I have good days, I have bad days. Although the bad are starting to be less. I look forward to the day when there are none. And I know that day WILL arrive..just not fast enough.

 

Green, I have attempted to write you two letters (privately) but for some strange reason they wouldn't go through. I'm going to try to send a shorter one with my email address and hope it goes through this time.

 

Thank you, Green, for being there for me....AGAIN.

 

Your bud,

~T~

[Tormented]

We met up yesterday.

 

Did you contact her again, or did she call you after receiving your card?

 

Was about 35% weird (proportion of time). That said, I think we do "naturally" get on well, so it was fine for the mostpart.

 

Question: Did seeing her set you back any? How did you feel minutes, hours, days after seeing her? Did it help, did it hender? Just curious...

 

I really really see through her now and see what lies beneath every reaction and every comment. It's different to how it was before when I was much more blind. That said, I noticed some things about her that haven't changed. Some of the underlying convictions and characteristics. Her BPD sucked me in with my low self-esteem. Always trying harder and harder etc. and always feeling bad about how it was never good enough.

 

Strange how we have 20-20 vision AFTER the damage has been done. Same here, B. I can look back now and see the pathology at work. Would have been great had I been able to see it BEFORE I handed my heart over. Would have saved me a lot of anguish.

 

Tell me, though, despite your knowing that she is a borderline and the tricks that come in that bag, did you find yourself still wanting to reach out to her, to touch her, to kiss her? Did you find yourself, even if remotely, wishing she was back in your life? Did you find yourself struggling to keep your wall intact? Did you find any vulnerability attempting to creep in?

 

I ask, because these are the things I fear should I ever come face to face with my ex.

 

She was very apologetic for all she did. In fact, she was surprised that I was even willing to see her after all she put me through. The burger was tasty, and we had hot chocolate afterwards - it was cold!

 

Did you believe her? Do you honestly think she's remorseful? Or do you think it was the borderline at work? Only you know...

 

Mr Beta got dumped a week ago. She said she was happier now she had done that. Seems that I unknowingly timed my rappochement to coincide with a turbulent time. Better be careful!

 

Oh, crap! And there it is, B. Red alert...RED ALERT! B, I know she says she dumped Mr. Beta, but did she really? Or is she stringing him along until she finds some other action to jump into. You know this is a borderline trait, right? They never...and I mean NEVER leave one until they have another sucker to run to. It's the way they operate, no exceptions to the rule.

 

My guess is Mr. Beta is still in the picture, but she's tired of it now. She's fishing for another 'adventure' and is testing the waters to see if you'll take the bait.

 

Be careful, B. Be VERY careful!

 

~T~

[MagnoliaJane]

Hi B,

 

I was surprised, after reading your thread, that you decided to send her a birthday card and a request to grab a burger. You said it came from wanting to act normal the next time you see her around. But I can't help wondering.... does there still exist something as "normal"? I also wonder... you seem like a smart, deep person. Did you make any efforts to befriend another woman during all that has happened? I'm not talking about dating, just looking for friends... doing something not related to the ex...?

 

Magnolia

[Greensleaves]

:::slapping myself for that crude remark::::

 

Haha, Tormented, kinda what jumped to my head, too, but then I wasn't "brutally blunt" enough to actually say that.

 

If it was possible to "kill" the love you have for them overnight, or within a time frame allotted by others, then I question the substance/genuineness of that love. Hell, if that were the case - if it were that easy then there would be no risk at all, nor any need for boards such as this.

 

I fully agree. So that's at least something I can take pride in: I am able to love fully and genuinely, even though it doesn't seem to get me anywhere right this second

 

I guess I'm just not strong enough to do it silently. This board is like my battery-charger in times that I feel weak, when I am struggling and feelings as though I am losing my grip.

 

You know that are few people that can take it silently and won't have any other problems like getting stomach ulcers or something similar because they don't allow themselves to vent anywhere... Obviously there is a big demand for a board like this!

 

Hmm, I am very sorry that overcoming this breakup is harder for you then when your marriage failed. That says a lot how deeply you cared about him. Oh dear. I guess it is the "mate" and "fate" thing, once we believe this person could be the one it is very difficult to convince us that he/she isn't. Well of course there are also people that will think that this is the one every single time, but that is rather rare and is definitely deluding oneself. I can relate to it, because I thought the same with my Ex. I thought I had reached the point where I can rest, but in hindsight it wasn't true. I couldn't really rest because he changed so much and in the end I had the feeling that the guy I met and fell in love with must have been hidden in a closet for a while, and Mr Hide had taken over. It sounds as if your Ex changed a lot to, or rather went bacK to his old behaviour which obviously pissed you off even before borderline hit the scene again.

 

I've been getting the "silent" calls again, although I thought perhaps they would stop after my last message to him. The calls did stop for about a week but have started up again this past week. And then, I got a very strange call this morning. From a woman by the name of "Red" who said..."Hi Bill, this is Red. I hope this is still your number. We will be passing through, and will call you later tonight. Our number is..."

 

Hu, that is odd, given that he didn't really fully live at your place. You really think he would play that as a trick? How stupid! Why can't he just speak up? And if he doesn't dare to, at least write a letter and let you know what he obviously wants you to know. I don't have to understand it, do I? I am trying to make sense of it, but struggle a little

 

 

 

Thank you, Green, for being there for me....AGAIN.

 

Your bud,

~T~

 

Hey you are very welcome and vice versa of course!

Don't know if you saw my post to B, I talked to my previous BF I was in NC with (his choice) for almost 3 years by now. We talked for three hours!! It was nice, but odd, too. I am not quite sure what to make out of it as his email with the request to phone him came rather unexpected. I am kinda happy but also quite confused now, latter I do not really need on my plate, do I?

 

Oh well, so there are still silent calls. By now I am quite convinced that he still cares for you and most likely loves you still, too. But doesn't help. If the trust is gone, it is gone. And for sure his strange ways do not help to rectify things at all. Gosh, why is love and life so complicated sometimes?

 

Hey, Tormented how's your mum, btw? Any good news on that front?

 

Take care.

 

Green

[B-3128]

Did you contact her again, or did she call you after receiving your card?

 

I invited her to meet up in the birthday card. That broke the 3.5 months of NC. I was very brief in the card and didn't say anything about being friends again etc. Got no reply, so 3.5 days later, I sent her a note saying that I was disappointed that she didn't reply and that I wanted to start again etc. She said she was in the process of dumping beta and that's why she only replied so late. He was coming into our city from his etc. trying to see her and make her change her mind and all that apparantly. I think I was just rewarding bad behaviour. I'm soft like that. Too soft and I get walked all over if I'm not careful.

 

Question: Did seeing her set you back any? How did you feel minutes, hours, days after seeing her? Did it help, did it hender? Just curious...

 

Seeing her... well... it was bizarre. I still love her. But I'm not in love with her. There's a big difference. Something like the father's love for the prodigal son. We used to do EVERYTHING together... we'd study together holding hands, eat together... absolutely everything. She'll never be like a stranger. I wouldn't be typing up about it if she was. I felt our connection and there was a part of me that just wanted to hug her on and on etc.

 

The whole thing made me feel sad. There's a good part of her. But I'm not going on some self-righteous moral crusade to save it from the bad side. That's bulls**t. Only she can do that. I still feel pity for her. She has hardly ever been single and really needs to develop as a person. I think she might actually make it to sanity in 5 years or so if she's lucky. Depends on who she meets.

 

Dumping beta... well, I didn't really press the subject. I'm not prepared to provide moral support about her loss of the guy she cheated on me with. Judging from his posts on her website and some other stuff, my guess is that he was a really passive geeky guy. She probably realised that she was deluding herself with a comfort blanket like that. We all want someone we can cuddle up to etc., but that alone is not enough. A bit of charisma... even a "challenge", if you could call it that, is also good. I'm not sure he had it. That's just my assumption anyway. Grass was greener on the other side. I'm an awesome guy and I was really nice to her. I know it sounds arrogant, but there really isn't anything THAT wrong with me. She was just too screwed up in the head and was subconsciously unable to believe that . She doesn't have enough self-worth to allow herself to be happy. That's what she was saying over lunch. I believe her. We've all done it before, but she's an extreme case. But knowing yourself is one thing. Changing yourself is another. She is still a threat and will remain so for a long time. She's bound to be kicking herself so much.

Tell me, though, despite your knowing that she is a borderline and the tricks that come in that bag, did you find yourself still wanting to reach out to her, to touch her, to kiss her? Did you find yourself, even if remotely, wishing she was back in your life? Did you find yourself struggling to keep your wall intact? Did you find any vulnerability attempting to creep in?

 

She makes it seem that all she needs is to be shown genuine care and love, and that enough of it will convince her to have faith in herself, the world, and other people. Any narcisiist such as myself will jump at such a change for conquest, glory and self redemption. I didn't particularly want to kiss her. I really felt a strong compulsion to hold her close and look after her. 'Reach out' is the better phrase. But I know where my feelings are rooted. They are rooted in my own lack of self love. Knowing this doesn't make me like myself any more, but it does give me an early warning. Life will continue to be a struggle for me, but perhaps it will be less of a losing one. I know myself and I know when I'm going wrong. When I was with her, I did feel uneasy. I felt like I was capitulating to my need to achieve her happiness to fill in my own void of self hate. It felt wrong and we tried to push it on. Threw time and money at it. Two people with mental health issues. Look where it got us...

 

I ask, because these are the things I fear should I ever come face to face with my ex.

 

T, don't fear your ex. Fear yourself.

 

Did you believe her? Do you honestly think she's remorseful? Or do you think it was the borderline at work? Only you know...

 

I don't know. Her guilt won't make me feel any better. It is of no use to me. I got through the worst of it without any remorse from her - genuine or fake. She was just downright horrible to me. Her guilt is probably sourced in low self esteem rather than genuine appreciation of what she put me through. She can't believe that someone would actually love her that much, so she is probably convinced now that given that I approached her and managed to deal with meeting up with her that I wasn't really that hurt. That it can't be that bad if I can handle it like this. She might get angry that she feels guilty like this. She might feel deceived. F*** it. Who knows. She's just trouble. There's no getting through to her. She'll only ever understand if she drives me to suicide. Then there's no going back on it of course. I don't want to be driven to suicide in desparation to prove anything. That would suck for my family...

 

 

Oh, crap! And there it is, B. Red alert...RED ALERT! B, I know she says she dumped Mr. Beta, but did she really? Or is she stringing him along until she finds some other action to jump into. You know this is a borderline trait, right? They never...and I mean NEVER leave one until they have another sucker to run to. It's the way they operate, no exceptions to the rule.

 

I'm not gonna be the next lillypad. I'm just not. I'm not I'm not I'm not. I can't. I won't. The price is too high. This is my final year at uni, and she would subconsciously arrange for everything to go wrong just before my exams. Me knowing her so well as to know that she will do this will only make it a self-fulfilling prophecy by injecting tension. I just have to sit this one out...

My guess is Mr. Beta is still in the picture, but she's tired of it now. She's fishing for another 'adventure' and is testing the waters to see if you'll take the bait.

 

He's probably around. I'm not taking bait. It's two days since I saw her last. NC since. I don't imagine I'll be calling her anytime soon, and I don't expect she'll be calling me.

 

That's the thing about her: She knows how I think she thinks. She knows that if she doesn't do what is polite or necessary that I will know that it is sourced in her lack of self worth. But I know now to extend myself the same degree of sympathy and consideration. No more one way sacrifice.I don't regret it. The burger was delicious. And it was nice to know she's, in her words, "happier".

 

B

[B-3128]

Hi B,

 

I was surprised, after reading your thread, that you decided to send her a birthday card and a request to grab a burger. You said it came from wanting to act normal the next time you see her around. But I can't help wondering.... does there still exist something as "normal"? I also wonder... you seem like a smart, deep person. Did you make any efforts to befriend another woman during all that has happened? I'm not talking about dating, just looking for friends... doing something not related to the ex...?

 

Magnolia

 

Hi Magnolia,

 

It came because I wanted a final settled state of affairs. I think I have that now. There's no more drama now as long as I make sure none is created.

 

We're on "I'll call you.... sometime..." terms.

 

She said she wanted to see me again. I'm not surprised given her situation.

 

Thanks for the compliments about me being smart and deep. Appreciate it.

 

As for other women, I haven't really changed my ways. I have some good female friends I can turn to during hard times. I also have some good male friends with whom I can do the same. I know myself inside out. I think, I talk, and I ask questions. I have to change myself however. I need to find a way.

 

There is another woman in my life now, but not in the conventional sense. We're kind of there for each other in the background. It's hard to explain and a strange story lies behind it. (No, she's not an online friend). She gives me a small amount of faith. Not enough, but enough to appreciate.

 

But dependency places an intolerable burden on a relationship and can take you even further back in terms of self love. Alas, we are all condemned!

 

B

[MagnoliaJane]

I can't help but wondering....

 

What does the ex have that we don't (want to?) see in others?

 

What makes him/her so special?

 

I'm afraid to answer that question myself. Afraid for what it might tell about me as a person... bc I loved (and god forbid still love) someone who maybe wasn't worth it (in the sense that equal appreciation and respect for the relationship wasn't there)...

 

I've been there where you were, B and T, only able to take in liquids, tortured by nightmares. Luckily that's all over and my life has stabilized but... the light is also turned off. The light in my life.

 

And that makes me so angry and I don't know what to do with that anger.

 

So, here I am, reading your stories and thinking what we can collectively do? Is it like jail time and we just have to sit it out? When will we be through? When is it done?

 

I still don't quite understand what the burger thing did to you, B. Take the drama away, is that it? Bring everything back to earthly proportions? Doesn't it create expectancies beyond your emotional reach? Isn't that tormenting? Isn't that why T doesn't want to talk to her ex?

 

Sorry for my many questions, I'm trying to grab the meaning of what we are all trying to do and it still (/always?) seems out of reach to me...

 

Magnolia

[B-3128]

I can't help but wondering....

 

What does the ex have that we don't (want to?) see in others?

 

You're hardwired to reproduce. They toy with your brain chemistry and make you feel good. It's what you get if you're trapped in a human carcass. Thing is, you're not trapped in the carcass, you are the carcass. The ex is just the harsh laws of nature playing games with you.

 

What makes him/her so special?

 

They're an addiction. An addiction to temporary relief from perpetual self-hatred.

 

I'm afraid to answer that question myself. Afraid for what it might tell about me as a person... bc I loved (and god forbid still love) someone who maybe wasn't worth it (in the sense that equal appreciation and respect for the relationship wasn't there)...

 

I've been there where you were, B and T, only able to take in liquids, tortured by nightmares. Luckily that's all over and my life has stabilized but... the light is also turned off. The light in my life.

 

Was the light ever on? Were you just too far away from the end of the tunnel to realise that there was nothing awaiting you?

 

And that makes me so angry and I don't know what to do with that anger.

 

So, here I am, reading your stories and thinking what we can collectively do? Is it like jail time and we just have to sit it out? When will we be through? When is it done?

 

I still don't quite understand what the burger thing did to you, B. Take the drama away, is that it? Bring everything back to earthly proportions? Doesn't it create expectancies beyond your emotional reach? Isn't that tormenting? Isn't that why T doesn't want to talk to her ex?

 

The burger thing was to avoid the risk of an unpleasant encounter that would arise from unexpectedly bumping into her. Better get it over with when I was prepared. I had been very lucky to have not crossed paths with her to that point. Too lucky even. We live in a small town. Now if I see her, it's much less of a big deal. I don't have to worry about it as much.

 

Sorry for my many questions, I'm trying to grab the meaning of what we are all trying to do and it still (/always?) seems out of reach to me...

 

You're asking important questions. You bring something really good to this whole discussion. I mean we've wallowed and moaned... but what's the point?

 

I'm like you - settling into a lightless existence. Waiting for the next person to come and delude me into thinking there's a point. Waiting for the next attractive thing to be dangled before me to the point where I want there to be a point and make one. But it will all be the same in the end.

 

And you don't have to be Freud to see that I've become something of a depressive... A depressive convinced it's all a mirage. A depressive who will justify the pointlessness like a pro. I wish I was less intelligent - then perhaps religion would delude me. But I'm seeing that as a serotonin pyramid scheme. It seems to feed on misery. Life for me has disintegrated into a chemical management exercise. That's the worst thing. Having to deal with that. Realising how feeble, pointless, unimportant, and ineffectual everything is. The loss of a loved one is like the loss of the mirages that keep us trekking through the harsh desert. In a sense, life is about these mirages. So conjure one up! Make it work for you! Quick!

 

It just comes as a rude shock when we periodically get forced to see how we are condemned to this incarceration in an intrinsically miserable form of existence. Conscious animals. What could possibly be worse?!

[MagnoliaJane]

B, I don't want to contradict your self-diagnosis as a depressive but you still seem to be able to communicate well with others so you're not that far off

 

You write about heavy stuff and I'll have to think about that carefully first. But... I can say this much already. I'm not convinced serotonin is (all of) the explanation. What comes first? The depression or the serotonin dip in the brain? It's the chicken or the egg. I'm not convinced the reason of depression is lack of serotonin. And neither that falling in love is all about chemicals. And that is coming from a hard-core scientist who did her PhD in stereotypic animal behavior and dopamine/serotonin (I switched fields after my PhD though because no neurotransmitter theory made sense to me anymore by the time I had to defend my PhD )

 

Bottom line is: we have our neocortex and we have the power to make choices that define our lives (and choices (could) give us degrees of freedom (or not)).

 

I believe it are behavioral factors within ourselves (fears, inabilities, flaws, desires, call it whatever...) that make us get stuck in relationships and within ourselves. Perhaps I am my own worst enemy and that is a scary thought.

 

Where were we in all of this that has happened?

[Tormented]

The whole thing made me feel sad.

 

Well, that's to be expected. But did you get any relief, closure, or a sense of peace from this meeting? In other words, are you glad you saw her, or did it leave you with regret? Perhaps a little of both?

 

She's bound to be kicking herself so much.

 

I think, B, she came with high hope that your intentions were to rekindle the relationship, start where you two left off. The fact that she didn't respond to your initial invitation, only to receive yet another one from you expressing your disappointment that she didn't respond COULD had led her to believe that your interest was a bit deeper than a friendly chat over a burger. I don't know if she would had admitted to her disappointment if that were the case, but I noticed she parted with a "let's keep in touch" line.

 

I do understand why you did it, why you chose to meet with her. Although it is true that had you not smoked the peace pipe with her now, the accidental "bumping into each other" could had proven to be an awkward moment for you both. But I think it's more than that. I think you felt it necessary to stare your demon down, to test the strength of your resolve. Not a bad thing to do, but risky. Don't think I'll be ready to endure that test for quite some time to come. In fact, I don't know that a "meeting" between my ex and I will ever come to past. And that's okay too. Sometimes, I guess it's best to find closure within yourself because the alternative could prove costly...a price I'm not willing to pay.

 

 

Any narcisiist such as myself will jump at such a change for conquest, glory and self redemption.

 

:::Blink. Blink, blink.:::

 

Narcissistic? You? Okay - give me a minute here....

 

I've no doubt you read my posts upon my discovery that my ex is most likely Narcissistic, in the pathological form. B, he meets the criteria, not all, but a great many. It runs deep. And after researching it, I'm not sure who suffers more...the narcissistic, or the victim? The Narcissistic harbors a deep self-loathe, which explains why my ex said on more than one occasion that he does not care about himself, but can only care when there's somebody in his life. He can NOT be alone, he told me this. And it is VERY difficult for him to express or show deep emotion, in fact he "detests" it...his words. He has a VERY deep distrust (and I believe) dislike of women, yet he needs them. Needs them because a narcissistic must have a "supply" to enable his self-delusion to thwart off the deep pain and despair they will do ANYTHING to avoid.

 

And there lied the problem between he and I. He needed to be admired and adored...perhaps even worshipped in a sense. I'm a strong woman, extremely independant with a strong sense of self. I won't give out praise and admiration upon demand. In my world, you have to earn it. He wanted me dependant upon him. I can't, I WON'T hand that kind of power over to anybody. And so, it was a battle of wills between us. In the end, the whole thing snapped and I walked. Hence, him turning to the borderline who is about as weak as they come. Yes, he needs that, but he also loathes it and has no respect for her. Hence, his "silent" phone calls to me. Or, as you once put it..."peeking in the window of the wine shop after closing time."

 

You understand this guy, don't you B? Because you've been so spot on about him thus far. So, who am I really to him, B? What is it about me that he really misses...that keeps him "sneaking" a peek?

 

I felt like I was capitulating to my need to achieve her happiness to fill in my own void of self hate. It felt wrong and we tried to push it on. Threw time and money at it. Two people with mental health issues. Look where it got us...

 

Like that of my ex and the borderline? "Two people with mental health issues..."

 

Thing is, B, we've all got "issues" to deal with. I don't care how "honky-dory" one appears, it's all a show. There's no way one can exist on this earth for any period of time without accumulating baggage along the way. We ALL have baggage. I certainly do. Ask my ex, he'd tell you. Mine are no where near as deep as his, or damaging, but enough so to hinder my happiness. And my recent relationship, and subsequent breakup, certainly served to compound it. So, I am now faced with the task of mending the wounds and, when strong enough, to stand up and go on.

 

Thing is, B, there isn't a soul roaming this earth who doesn't have issues in one form or another. So I guess the best we can hope for is to find somebody who helps to fill in the gaps. Together, you fill in the gaps. Just depends upon how "compatible" the couples' issues are.

 

T, don't fear your ex. Fear yourself.

 

What I fear is the love I still hold for him, B. And I fear his insight into how I tick. He knows where my buttons are...very few people can claim that. I empowered him, B. And THAT'S what I fear.

 

She can't believe that someone would actually love her that much, so she is probably convinced now that given that I approached her and managed to deal with meeting up with her that I wasn't really that hurt.

 

Of course not, B. She's a borderline, and one of the paramount traits of a borderline is the deep fear of abandonment. They, too, suffer from a loathe of self and feel undeserving of love. They believe themselves to be a bad person, "evil" even...hence their tendency to sabotage any happiness that comes to them. But in doing so, they deeply hurt those who TRY to love them, try to get close. They crave love, NEED love, but they fear it as well because the fear of abandonment is much stronger than their need for love. Hence, the push and pull game they put their victims through. The title, "I hate you - don't leave me" is spot on. It's EXACTLY like that.

 

She'll only ever understand if she drives me to suicide.

 

Ha! I'm not laughing at your above statement, but rather something my ex once said to me. He said..."you're gonna drive me to the nut house." And he was dead serious when he said it. However, it wasn't as the result of a "push and pull" game, but rather, my stubborness and my refusal to tolerate certain things. I could walk, and he knew it. And it frightened him.

 

And it was nice to know she's, in her words, "happier".

 

Yeah...sounds like it.

 

Guess if she says it enough times, she'll actually convince herself.

 

~T~

[Mary3]

Well Tormented I * think * I have figured out what is up with your ex and you .

 

I think the one thing you cannot let go of ( nor can your ex ) is that you both have * chemistry * A very strong powerful attraction and its undeniable that you both are still feeling this..

 

Well guess what ? Its going to last forever !

 

I know you are shocked but I will give an example.

 

When I was 14 years old I was strongly attracted to my brothers friend. He was not particularly that attractive but he was the bad boy/ sauve bordering on danger kind of guy. We just had this deep attraction. He won my heart and we were attached at the hip.

 

After about a year or so , his aunt forbidding our young relationship , I had to move on and found a new bf at 16.

 

So fastforward from 14 to the age of 33 when my mom died. ( Remember I had not seen him for 19 years,....we met up at the reception of my moms funeral . ( Thats because he was still close to my brother ) .

 

When I came into the room our eyes locked. ! ( I was now married to someone ) He sat on the couch and we were just talking and he had that dam hypnotic voice and we were just talking. He brought up something in the past and someone in the room said " That was your girlfriend ? " He looked at me , smiled and said " Yes, she was my girlfriend "

 

We talk and its time to go and I never saw him again. But make NO mistake about it ...chemistry is forever in most cases.

 

It does not matter if he drug you through the mud and back again....the chemistry lingers...

 

Another case in point I ran into someone I was strongly attracted to. We had not seen eachother in 8 months. Well he decided after alot of flirting that he was going to kiss me ...and KISS me he did !@ And pow ! LOL !

 

Soooooooooo.....it was amazing...ahhh,....but hey the attraction stuff just lingers...so that might explain why you both haven't let go.

 

Its killing you both !

 

Wow no easy answers here : Unless you want to hanky panky with him one night and get your ya ya's out

[Tormented]

I can't help but wondering....

 

What does the ex have that we don't (want to?) see in others?

 

What makes him/her so special?

 

Oh man...a good question, Magnolia, and one I've pondered more than I care to count.

 

With all his faults and warts, I often ask myself what it is about him that I fell so hard for? My conclusion? The comfort level I found with him. B stated that we're wired for reproduction. True, we are. But I think it goes deeper than that. I think we all have the innate need to love, but more so, to FEEL loved. And my ex made me feel loved. More so than I have ever felt with any man. Depending upon the degree of love a mate offers dictates our attachment to them. So, in a sense, B was right when he said they become like an addiction to us. We crave love, we crave touch, acceptance, companionship, connection...a bond. It's a human need, a human MUST. And when a mate offers it to us, in just the right style and dose that we require (because our "needs" are different), we naturally deem this mate as "special," a MUST in our life. They supply that which we need.

 

And when that "supply" is taken from us, we go through a painful withdrawal...like that of a drug we have become addicted to.

 

We can go on, find another. And we will. But will that next mate satisfy the need to the degree our former one did? No, probably not because every relationship is different. Doesn't mean we can't love another, we can. We just have to learn to adjust our need to the degree in which our new mate provides. Because if we don't, we find ourselves "pining" over our lost love. Make sense?

 

I'm afraid to answer that question myself. Afraid for what it might tell about me as a person... bc I loved (and god forbid still love) someone who maybe wasn't worth it (in the sense that equal appreciation and respect for the relationship wasn't there)...

 

I've been there where you were, B and T, only able to take in liquids, tortured by nightmares. Luckily that's all over and my life has stabilized but... the light is also turned off. The light in my life.

 

See, Magnolia, that's what I mean about adjusting our need(s). Failing to do so results in your dilemma...the inability to move on, to crave "yesterday's" supply. Believe me, I know because I'm sitting next to you in the same boat. I know I have to at least open myself up for a "new" mate, a "not-so-familiar" touch if I hope to find love again. That's hard to do. But living a loveless life is much harder.

 

And that makes me so angry and I don't know what to do with that anger.

 

I hear ya. I understand that anger. A bit too much, actually. But you know, there are two choices to be made with anger. You can allow it to become your anchor, thus preventing you from moving forward. Or - you can allow it to become your propeller...allowing it to push you along to a better place. Our choice, of course.

 

So, here I am, reading your stories and thinking what we can collectively do? Is it like jail time and we just have to sit it out? When will we be through? When is it done?

 

Yes, when it is done. And it will take however long it needs to. Sucks, I know, but there it is. Some of it is not within our control, try as we may. BUT - some of it is. We can't completely bring it to a halt, but we can dull some of the pain with the choices we make. I think our attitude has a lot to do with it...how it colors our outlook on life. Right now, my outlook is unhealthy but is starting to improve - if only a little. Day by day I take baby steps toward the line of "healthy." I'm amazed at how far from healthy I strolled in this thing. So, my focus is on that line...striving to step across it to the land of "balance" once again. How long will it take to reach the finish line? Depends upon how many stumbles you take in the course of the race. So far, I've had many.

 

Isn't that tormenting? Isn't that why T doesn't want to talk to her ex?

 

You betcha! When one is detoxing, the last thing one wants to do is reach for the drug of choice. And for me, that is what the ex is. My drug of choice. Do I have cravings? Yes, very much so. I HAVE to stay away from him.

 

Sorry for my many questions, I'm trying to grab the meaning of what we are all trying to do and it still (/always?) seems out of reach to me...

 

Actually, Magnolia, I appreciate your questions and I'm glad you joined in. Puts a new twist on this subject. B, Green and I have leaned on each other throughout this whole ordeal and have been a source of strength for one another. And B's right...we've done LOTS of moaning and venting over our ex's, but sometimes it's necessary. Especially so if you've got nobody else to turn to for fear of alienating people in your "real" life with perpetual "sob" stories. After awhile, people don't want to hear it. They expect you to "snap out of it." Ha...easier said than done. So, I pretend to be "okay." Guess I put on a good act because nobody seems to detect the misery behind the strained smile.

 

*sigh*

 

~T~

[Greensleaves]

Uhhh, B, this is all tough stuff. I do have to agree with Magnolia, it is not all about chemistry and reproduction of nature etc. Just because science found out about neurotransmitters; there is soo much science hasn't even touched yet that might change our perception again.

I got a movie recommended, produced by hardcore physicist scientists that basically admit, that we do not really have a clue yet: "What the bleep do we know".

 

But reality is what we choose to think, if we sit there and think it was just the hormones playing tricks on me it will be exactly that.

 

Jeez, B, you sound so full of anger and hatred and self loathe, I don't even know what to say. I do agree that the partner can become an addiction but not as a relief for self hatred. But because we liked all the good feelings that came with him/her.

Why do you hate yourself that much, B? I mean honestly, what can be the cause for it and maybe it is more important to focus on that and trying to do something about it than actually being prepared for an accidental meeting with borderline Ex. Maybe the reason that you fell for her lies in your self hatred.

You are smart enough, so I guess you kinda know that and most likely reflected on that already.

 

The light can come in many forms and it doesn't necessarily have to be a partner, it can be an important project, a hobby, friends, family, anything really. I know what you are talking about because I for sure struggle to find a new light as well sinc the old one failed for reasons that are still unknown to me. But I also know that i can find something else again if i want and try hard. Right now I am still too confused and maybe you are, too, but if you like your course or a little aspect of your course and find an interesting question to research and look deeper that can already take you further and make you see light again. The difficulty lies in finding a new light if one focused only on one and that one ran out of battery.

 

Life is more than just chemical reactions and you know that yourself, B, you are just super dissappointed and angry like most of us.

We all wallow in self pity, but it doesn't help if we start loathing ourselves. In fact, it will become worse, because the next girl again might then be one that isn't stable or has big issues or feeds from the fact that she can get you to feel that nothing you do is ever good enough. Tormented is right, we all come with a package these days, but that doesn't mean that everything is doomed, We just need to find somebody with a package that is compatible with ours.

 

Your Ex obviously was fairly hardcore. There is nothing to prepare you for such a person. So I guess if you settle with somebody with a package just slightly less heavier, you will already see better results If you stop hating yourself that is. Maybe you should try and work on that with a counsellor or by reading books on the topic if that suits you better. Jeez, B, you are too smart to stay in the corner of the basement you put yourself in. You can do so much better.

 

C'mon, B, get out of there, tell us something nice. Maybe about the girl you hang out occasionally that you seem to like?

 

Green

[B-3128]

B, I don't want to contradict your self-diagnosis as a depressive but you still seem to be able to communicate well with others so you're not that far off

 

You write about heavy stuff and I'll have to think about that carefully first. But... I can say this much already. I'm not convinced serotonin is (all of) the explanation. What comes first? The depression or the serotonin dip in the brain? It's the chicken or the egg. I'm not convinced the reason of depression is lack of serotonin. And neither that falling in love is all about chemicals. And that is coming from a hard-core scientist who did her PhD in stereotypic animal behavior and dopamine/serotonin (I switched fields after my PhD though because no neurotransmitter theory made sense to me anymore by the time I had to defend my PhD )

Bottom line is: we have our neocortex and we have the power to make choices that define our lives (and choices (could) give us degrees of freedom (or not)).

 

I believe it are behavioral factors within ourselves (fears, inabilities, flaws, desires, call it whatever...) that make us get stuck in relationships and within ourselves. Perhaps I am my own worst enemy and that is a scary thought.

 

Where were we in all of this that has happened?

 

You're absolutely right.. You are not happy because there serotonin in your head. It's just there when you're happy. Put yourself in the right situation and you will be happy. Put yourself in the wrong one and you won't be.

 

Unfortunately, sometimes your brain gets stuck in the state it was in when things were unhappy, even if you are in a good situation externally.

 

Me - I have SO MUCH going for me. Materially, though I'm not particularly wealthy, there is so much I have. Yet I'm stuck with unhappiness and I can't seem to be able to get rid of it.

 

Nobody has any answers. Those who try seem to me to be even more hopeless! It's like I'm forever struggling against people telling me to pray more or party more or do whatever. Perhaps these are all rituals that you carry out because you are convinced you deserve to be happy. They, like the serotonin, are there when you have taken it upon yourself to pursue happiness. So if you're doing these things, you must love yourself already and be happy anyway. For if you did not, and if instead you were convinced that you had to be miserable, then you would never do anything that you genuinely believe would make you happy. So when these people go over the crest of the hill and find Jesus or reach Nirvana, all that's really happened is that they have reached a particular threshold of self love. Obviously, it only works if you genuinely believe that what you have found is the path to happiness. There are two steps. The first is falling for it - so, believing in whatever it is you will start worshipping (yoga/Krishnu/money) as a path to happiness. The second is getting to the point where you are fed up enough with being unhappy that you embark on the journey. That requires a degree of self love. There are many people for example who believe in God but believe that they are sinners. They're still depressed! And then of course, there is the possibility of reaching a point of resignation. Where you don't believe that any of these things will really work because you have read this post and seen what they all stand for . Then what happens? Well, the two possible outcomes are unchanged. Either you remain depressed like the sinner. Or you go seek out something else to worship and take an "ah well, I'll try this new Zen meditation stuff anyway" attitude. And when you do that... you've effectively believed in something. If you didn't. If you didn't have that speck of hope and self delusion, you would stay depressed. So that is my little chestnut for you Magnolia. Enjoy!

 

B

[B-3128]

The whole thing made me feel sad.

 

Well, that's to be expected. But did you get any relief, closure, or a sense of peace from this meeting? In other words, are you glad you saw her, or did it leave you with regret? Perhaps a little of both?

 

 

I'm not glad I saw her. It wasn't a happy process. I felt like the whole experience symbolised a tremendous happiness that I am denied. I don't regret it. I don't think I particularly enjoyed it. I floated through it. A lot of the time, I was wishing that things weren't so screwed up. The chemistry was there. Have you seen a movie: "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind"? Basically, I know that if I was in that burger place with that girl and we had none of that historical pollution, we would have had an amazing and happy time. But it would have been based on psychological illnesses. A happiness that was just a cure for the symptoms of an inner sadness. Only the pollution can make me aware of the pyschological problems. Only the pain can protect me from making the same mistakes again. It's a wake up call. I now see what was wrong with me and with her. So that happiness... that anaesthetic... it won't work anymore. I need something stronger.

 

 

She's bound to be kicking herself so much.

 

I think, B, she came with high hope that your intentions were to rekindle the relationship, start where you two left off. The fact that she didn't respond to your initial invitation, only to receive yet another one from you expressing your disappointment that she didn't respond COULD had led her to believe that your interest was a bit deeper than a friendly chat over a burger. I don't know if she would had admitted to her disappointment if that were the case, but I noticed she parted with a "let's keep in touch" line.

 

She parted on a "will I see you again?" note. You could be right. There's a small part in both of us I think that wants to rekindle it. There were some priceless moments we enjoyed together.

 

I remember once I surprised her with tickets to this rock concert. A band she was really into. We had a magical time. I got her the guitarist's plectrum and the set list. Then, this girl stole it from her and ran off with it. I persuaded the lead singer of the band to personally get it back from the thieving fan for her! I was her hero!

 

There's this other band we tried to see last year coming to town next week. We couldn't get in on the door back then because they sold out. We always said we'd go again. In fact, we were talking about them over the burger! Now, I have the chance to get tickets. And I want to take her to it because I have such a nice memory of that other concert and how we were so happy there. But things aren't the same anymore. I take her to that concert and she gets with some random guy? I couldn't handle that. If it was one of my casual female friends however, I wouldn't even entertain the risk before going! I'd just thing "you go girl!". So things clearly aren't normal. I think I would be looking after myself a lot more if I didn't invite her to go. Plus, she might just take three days and a second invite before she replies anyway... I can't deal with all this stuff.... better to just go with someone else...

 

 

I do understand why you did it, why you chose to meet with her. Although it is true that had you not smoked the peace pipe with her now, the accidental "bumping into each other" could had proven to be an awkward moment for you both. But I think it's more than that. I think you felt it necessary to stare your demon down, to test the strength of your resolve. Not a bad thing to do, but risky. Don't think I'll be ready to endure that test for quite some time to come. In fact, I don't know that a "meeting" between my ex and I will ever come to past. And that's okay too. Sometimes, I guess it's best to find closure within yourself because the alternative could prove costly...a price I'm not willing to pay.

 

 

Maybe part of why I did it was out of self hate? Punishing myself. Wanting to be stronger and bear the challenge in the search for self worth? It is risky. It's painful if you pass the test. It's even worse if you fail it. There's nothing nice about it.

 

 

Any narcisiist such as myself will jump at such a change for conquest, glory and self redemption.

 

:::Blink. Blink, blink.:::

 

Narcissistic? You? Okay - give me a minute here....

 

I've no doubt you read my posts upon my discovery that my ex is most likely Narcissistic, in the pathological form. B, he meets the criteria, not all, but a great many. It runs deep. And after researching it, I'm not sure who suffers more...the narcissistic, or the victim? The Narcissistic harbors a deep self-loathe, which explains why my ex said on more than one occasion that he does not care about himself, but can only care when there's somebody in his life. He can NOT be alone, he told me this. And it is VERY difficult for him to express or show deep emotion, in fact he "detests" it...his words. He has a VERY deep distrust (and I believe) dislike of women, yet he needs them. Needs them because a narcissistic must have a "supply" to enable his self-delusion to thwart off the deep pain and despair they will do ANYTHING to avoid.

 

And there lied the problem between he and I. He needed to be admired and adored...perhaps even worshipped in a sense. I'm a strong woman, extremely independant with a strong sense of self. I won't give out praise and admiration upon demand. In my world, you have to earn it. He wanted me dependant upon him. I can't, I WON'T hand that kind of power over to anybody. And so, it was a battle of wills between us. In the end, the whole thing snapped and I walked. Hence, him turning to the borderline who is about as weak as they come. Yes, he needs that, but he also loathes it and has no respect for her. Hence, his "silent" phone calls to me. Or, as you once put it..."peeking in the window of the wine shop after closing time."

 

You understand this guy, don't you B? Because you've been so spot on about him thus far. So, who am I really to him, B? What is it about me that he really misses...that keeps him "sneaking" a peek?

 

T, your ex is me gone wrong. I went to a party last weekend. It was full of attractive women. I find them so intimidating. They make me feel s**t about myself. Feels like they're a test and that I'm failing it. I think there are a lot of subtleties in my behaviour that indicate that I see a lot of things as a test to try and gather self worth. Yet I resent it. As I said earlier, I pass, I hurt. I fail I hurt even more. Cider and wine all screw your liver up you know...

 

 

 

I felt like I was capitulating to my need to achieve her happiness to fill in my own void of self hate. It felt wrong and we tried to push it on. Threw time and money at it. Two people with mental health issues. Look where it got us...

 

Like that of my ex and the borderline? "Two people with mental health issues..."

 

Thing is, B, we've all got "issues" to deal with. I don't care how "honky-dory" one appears, it's all a show. There's no way one can exist on this earth for any period of time without accumulating baggage along the way. We ALL have baggage. I certainly do. Ask my ex, he'd tell you. Mine are no where near as deep as his, or damaging, but enough so to hinder my happiness. And my recent relationship, and subsequent breakup, certainly served to compound it. So, I am now faced with the task of mending the wounds and, when strong enough, to stand up and go on.

 

Thing is, B, there isn't a soul roaming this earth who doesn't have issues in one form or another. So I guess the best we can hope for is to find somebody who helps to fill in the gaps. Together, you fill in the gaps. Just depends upon how "compatible" the couples' issues are.

 

Yes - we are all born ok, then our parents and those around us screw us up. Then we try to find similarly screwed up people to unscrew us up. But they're screwed up some way, and our attraction to them lies in the fact that we're screwed up in such a way that makes us predisposed to seek some other particular type of screwup. Every force has an equal and opposing force. It's all just chaos. And because you're inside the carcass... because you're a "conscious animal" and regretably not just a "conscious" (is such a thing possible? - don't answer that!!!!)... you never see it. You're visually impared. And so is everyone else. You know why? Because they're all screwed up too!!!

 

 

 

T, don't fear your ex. Fear yourself.

 

What I fear is the love I still hold for him, B. And I fear his insight into how I tick. He knows where my buttons are...very few people can claim that. I empowered him, B. And THAT'S what I fear.

 

She can't believe that someone would actually love her that much, so she is probably convinced now that given that I approached her and managed to deal with meeting up with her that I wasn't really that hurt.

 

Of course not, B. She's a borderline, and one of the paramount traits of a borderline is the deep fear of abandonment. They, too, suffer from a loathe of self and feel undeserving of love. They believe themselves to be a bad person, "evil" even...hence their tendency to sabotage any happiness that comes to them. But in doing so, they deeply hurt those who TRY to love them, try to get close. They crave love, NEED love, but they fear it as well because the fear of abandonment is much stronger than their need for love. Hence, the push and pull game they put their victims through. The title, "I hate you - don't leave me" is spot on. It's EXACTLY like that.

 

She'll only ever understand if she drives me to suicide.

 

Ha! I'm not laughing at your above statement, but rather something my ex once said to me. He said..."you're gonna drive me to the nut house." And he was dead serious when he said it. However, it wasn't as the result of a "push and pull" game, but rather, my stubborness and my refusal to tolerate certain things. I could walk, and he knew it. And it frightened him.

 

And it was nice to know she's, in her words, "happier".

 

Yeah...sounds like it.

 

Guess if she says it enough times, she'll actually convince herself.

 

~T~

 

We've just both suffered at the hands of mankind's greatest enemy: low self-esteem. It's sad, but let's hope we make it through... (to what?)

 

 

B

[B-3128]

Green, will post a reply to you soon. Gotta get to bed now!

 

B