For the Guys: A Reality Check

[serial muse]

That is a very good observation.

 

The meteoric rise of single-parent (usually mother/child) families is one part of the equation.

 

But there's another part that needs to be answered too. In two-parent households, the male is expected to bring home the lion's share of the wealth, plus invest themselves in child-rearing, housework and partner support.

 

I'm sure you've seen this yourself, because I have too. The husband/father spends extra hours at the office (or whatever) to earn the big dollars to ensure that his family is well-off financially. Then he's criticized for not helping with the housework, being there for the kids and wife. So, he takes more time away from the office to attend to his family, and is criticized for not bringing home enough money.

 

I personally have seen this happen over and over and over again. No matter what the guy does, he loses.

 

personally, i've seen men and women both behave like they're getting the short end of the stick, somehow.

 

of course, you could argue that neither does nearly as much work in a day as they did in the past, just to survive.

[lindya]

The whole point of having the large brains that we have, as primates, is to manage the complexities involved with social interaction. If you no longer pay homage to the whole foundational concept of social interaction, is playing by someone else's rules and attending to what others may think of you, then you may find your popularity steadily decreasing.

 

Exactly. I'd add that there's a certain irony in this comment...

 

For me, personally, I no longer worry about what a potential partner may think, or how they perceive me. I am what I am, and I refuse to play by anyone else's rules.

 

If that means that I go without sex for a while, then so be it.

 

Comments?

 

Don't mean to pick, but if other people's thoughts, opinions and personal boundaries (ie rules) don't matter, then why invite expression of them? Why use a site that's all about people expressing their individual belief systems?

 

Most of us gravitate towards those whose belief systems are closest to our own - but no two people will ever share an identical belief system. That's why some ability and willingness to negotiate and compromise is essential in order to make relationships work. Not just that, but by considering other people's perspectives you can often refine yours in a way that actually ends up enhancing your life. Thinking in terms of "I must stick by my own beliefs, whatever happens. If I don't, I'm weak...." is self-defeating, and leads to stagnation.

 

Things have changed in many ways. Lots of women work in business, and the Western style of doing business has changed as a result. The process of negotiating has become more subtle as men and women find themselves having to conduct business with eachother. Women pick up traditionally male strategic techniques that they find helpful both in business and in their personal lives. Likewise, men learn that there are certain feminine techniques (stemming from what we now term emotional intelligence) that are extremely effective.

 

As a result, there are some women in business or politics who rival or surpass male colleagues in terms of strategic thinking. Similarly, more and more men are becoming experts in the analysis and application of emotional intelligence. The people who can combine strategic thinking and emotional intelligence are the ones who are succeeding in modern society.

 

I suspect that society introduces regressive trends from time to time - eg the so-called "Menaissance movement" specifically to ensure a steady flow of losers (because society must ensure there are losers in order to create an environment for winners). There are some people who will take some meaning from a trend like that, and incorporate it into their belief system in a way that works well for them. The vast majority, however, just seem to interpret it as "I am man. Hear me roar. Watch me dig my heels in..." . Then apply it very literally in their own lives, with the end result that they just look tunnel-visioned and lacking in both communication, negotiation and diplomatic skills.

 

I'm actually going to quote Bush here:

 

Sounds like kind of a familiar refrain here. Saying “bring it on.” Kind of tough talk, you know, that sent the wrong signal to people. But I learned some lessons about expressing myself maybe in a little more sophisticated manner.

[a4a]

I am insane?

 

But the TV show Bewitched comes to mind suddenly.

 

Samantha had powers Darren could never have. He forbid her to use her powers so he could 'feel like more of a man'.

 

Okay back to our regular scheduled programing.

[superconductor]

The vast majority, however, just seem to interpret it as "I am man. Hear me roar. Watch me dig my heels in..." . Then apply it very literally in their own lives, with the end result that they just look tunnel-visioned and lacking in both communication, negotiation and diplomatic skills.

Astute observations, but is this actually true?

 

Do we not see the rise and fall of fashionable styles of man as SNAG, metrosexual and all the rest as a result of the differing desires of what women say they want?

 

I'm certainly willing to be wrong here, but in my experience the "dig-in-my-heels" male seems to be a rather rare breed, swimming in a sea of SNAGs, metrosexuals, "touchy-feely" guys, bad boys, post-modern men and so forth.

[Outcast]

but in my experience the "dig-in-my-heels" male seems to be a rather rare breed

 

The epitome of this breed is Dubya. Not exactly hot in my books. [/massive understatement] Hopefully, not a role model except of the definition of 'throwback'.

[lindya]

Do we not see the rise and fall of fashionable styles of man as SNAG, metrosexual and all the rest .

 

Yes...because all these names and acronyms are simply trendy buzzwords, and the very definition of a trend is that it will lose popularity after a certain period of time.

 

I never trust these things. Well researched and expressed theories on human behaviour and development are incredibly useful....but whenever some pseudo-sociologists starts trying to create a sense of momentum that a "new type of man/woman is emerging", I get a bit cynical. These things just seem to be fodder for newspaper hacks who have run out of ideas for fresh and interesting stories. In that respect, I don't see the whole "back to basics menaissance man" being any different from all his differently clothed predecessors.

 

If men are generally feeling frustrated, angry, disempowered, then I'm all for listening to the underlying reasons. There are lots of issues relating to fathers' rights, financial provision on divorce and in vitro fertilisation that certainly bear discussion. What tends to put me off is when these grievances are aired in a manner that suggests men feel it's time to wage war against women (not suggesting you were doing that - I'm talking in a far more general sense). For exactly the same reason, I would lose interest in any feminist discussion that started to take on a man-hating tone.

 

Masculinism (if I can call it that) shares similar difficulties with feminism. Ideally, both would provide perspectives in the analysis and promotion of human rights. Unfortunately, both are frequently hijacked and used as excuses to mock or vent against the opposite sex in an unproductive manner.

[superconductor]

Masculinism (if I can call it that) shares similar difficulties with feminism. Ideally, both would provide perspectives in the analysis and promotion of human rights. Unfortunately, both are frequently hijacked and used as excuses to mock or vent against the opposite sex in an unproductive manner.

This may not matter to you, but your credibility with me just turned gold.

[a4a]

Astute observations, but is this actually true?

 

Do we not see the rise and fall of fashionable styles of man as SNAG, metrosexual and all the rest as a result of the differing desires of what women say they want?

 

I'm certainly willing to be wrong here, but in my experience the "dig-in-my-heels" male seems to be a rather rare breed, swimming in a sea of SNAGs, metrosexuals, "touchy-feely" guys, bad boys, post-modern men and so forth.

 

 

Thank Goodness...... The "bring it on" type can drag their knuckles on the ground far from my presence.

[lindya]

This may not matter to you, but your credibility with me just turned gold.

 

I am entirely impervious to any person's validation, but I'd just like to know in what sense it just turned gold? What was your opinion of me before? What is it now? Do I ask too many questions? Do I post too much? Don't answer any of this!

[superconductor]

Thank Goodness...... The "bring it on" type can drag their knuckles on the ground far from my presence.

You'll find lots of them at NASCAR races, wearing ball caps and swilling Coors Light.

[superconductor]

I'd just like to know in what sense it just turned gold?

Instead of falling back into the entenched "battle of the sexes, women vs men" position, you opened fire on both sides. I like that. Well done.

What was your opinion of me before?

Didn't have an opinion, really, as I hadn't read a lot of your stuff.

What is it now?

Pretty damn good.

Do I ask too many questions?

Uh... well... maybe... what do you think?

Do I post too much?

I already know that I post too much, so any opinion from me on that topic is, well, "fruit of the poisoned tree."

Don't answer any of this!

Too late!!

[lindya]

Instead of falling back into the entenched "battle of the sexes, women vs men" position, you opened fire on both sides.

 

I always was a shaky shot.

[a4a]

You'll find lots of them at NASCAR races, wearing ball caps and swilling Coors Light.

 

 

Don't I know it!!! :lmao: I sit at one of these for probably 14 hours with one guy that said " stupid b*tch (his wife) did not pack me my bug spray"......one making comments to everyone about that womans ass, that womans tits, using field glasses to ogle them. Another professional basketball player sitting their spouting off about how much he knows about everything :lmao:

 

Oh how I love this yearly outting :lmao:

 

They do all treat me with respect though.... of course I can "out man" them with their comments. I out grunt them when they need to be put in their place.... :lmao:

[superconductor]

I always was a shaky shot.

Remind me to stay away from the firing range when you're practicing, ok?

[EnigmaXOXO]

:laugh:

 

John was just standing over my shoulder and we were both laughing at ourselves when we read this part of Walk's response:

 

How strange.. I just had this conversation with my bf last night. He wants to feel "needed", and he's unhappy I only "want" him in my life.

 

Three days ago, we had a very similar discussion.

 

It was his idea that I should take my vehicle to Firestone where he has his truck serviced instead of my ol' stand-by Jiffy Lube. I like things easy and uncomplicated, but resolved to take his advice because he certainly knows more about mechanics than I do. He set up the appointment for me and made plans to follow me over to drop off my car and drive me back home since he was going to be working from home anyway that day.

 

Five minutes before we were supposed to leave, there was an issue at work with a Server and he was stuck behind the computer putting out proverbial fires. We had to cancel the appointment, and he suggested we reschedule for the following Friday when he would be working from home again. Since I was already dressed and ready to go, and had other errands to take care of anyway, I told him not to worry and that I would just swing by Jiffy Lube as I'd usually done. Gave him a kiss, told him I'd be back, and left so that I could take care of everything I needed to do and get home as soon as possible.

 

When I returned, he was eager to help me unload the groceries (as usual ) and asked to see my Jiffy Lube receipt for the rundown of everything I had done. As it turns out, my chivalrous White-Knight had driven over to Jiffy Lube an hour later when he was finally able to break free because he was worried I was still stuck waiting in the Lobby. He glanced over the ticket and seemed satisfied, but said he felt really bad that he was unable to follow through and help me out, and wanted to know if I was upset with him.

 

I told him, "Of course not. It wasn't your fault it was just bad timing. Besides, I LIKE Jiffy Lube because it's easy. I went there all the time when I was on my own before I had anyone around to help me."

 

BIG MISTAKE … I had just inserted big toe into mouth and accidentally triggered his touch button!

 

I saw him wince. He put his face in his hands and in his usual humorous way started moaning "Noooooooooo! … Please don't say it like that! It sounds like you're saying you don't need me!"

 

Of course, that wasn't what I was trying to say at all, but that's what he heard. I panicked and went into recovery mode. Tried to explain that I wasn't saying "I don't need you" … but that you shouldn't stress yourself out about stuff like this because I'm perfectly capable of taking care of myself. I need you … but I'm not "needy" … if that makes any sense at all. (???)

 

Of course, all I did was dig an even deeper hole for myself!

 

From all my conversations with John, the one thing I've learned is that a lot of men want to feel needed even if, in actuality, a woman is perfectly capable of handling her own. But in all fairness, I think women like to feel needed and appreciated, too. John describes it as his male "protector" thing … he LIKES feeling as if he's taking care of me. Even if (in his words): "It's opening a pickle jar, mowing the lawn, filling the gas tank, killing that spider, or lifting something heavy for me."

 

I think the most difficult challenge a self-sufficient woman sometimes faces when she enters into a relationship is NOT letting on to her masculine partner that she isn't necessarily the weaker sex. Walking that fine line between showing her softer, more vulnerable feminine side while at the same time proving to her partner that she can be a strong, contributing equal in that relationship in every other way.

 

So guys: how does an independent woman go about showing her partner: I don't love you because I need you … I need you because I love you. (???)

 

That's one of the things I'm currently struggling to work on, myself. And with my partner's help and honest feedback, I'm hoping that I'll eventually find that balance and learn how.

[blind_otter]

I have a tendency to attract men who want women who need them because, as my history has indicated (it's an open book on LS, embarassingly) -- I am a train wreck. I have had bad things happen to me and the type of man that is usually attracted to women like me have "white knight syndrome"....

 

But I can say it's trying to need someone. When I lost both my babies, at separate times with separate men, they both buckled under my "need" -- not for anything material, mind you, but for them to be supportive of me. So that I didn't collapse. Actually for a portion of the time I was dependent on others for my income since I was unable to work. For various reasons.

 

Anyways, suffice it to say that this insistence on men's parts that women NEED them isn't necessarily the most honest statement, I think. IME when you lean heavily on anyone, when you are in strife or pain, they will buckle under the pressure -- or worse, begin to resent your need.

 

I'm just saying.

[Outcast]

So guys: how does an independent woman go about showing her partner: I don't love you because I need you … I need you because I love you. (???)

 

I really would like to hear the answer to this, too. In fact, I think it bears having a thread of its own. Whadday think, E?

[Great Gazoo]

Hey! That's my Catch Phrase. Now I'm going to have to put that in my signature or something. Jeez, man, you don't post for a day and suddenly everyone's stealing your one liners.

 

For the record today is the anniversary of the loss of my daughter, Aislin, in 2002, to miscarriage. My Mom told me, these feelings never leave. They get easier to deal with. (she had severeal miscarriages and my oldest sister passed away at 5 days)....and you have no other option, really, than to get better and move on. It does no one, not yourself, not your wife, not your children who have passed -- any good to dwell on that which causes you pain.

 

I'mjustsaying.

 

Hey I knew it was your phrase, I have seen you post it many times before, so I offer my humble apologies and please no legal action is reqiured.

 

Also my thoughts are with you, i know what your talking about, I blew a gasket yesterday and I know i have to do a better job coping but sometimes it seems like a lost cause until we have a child or we finally decide to give up on the whole idea. It just keeps coming right back and biting us in the ass.

[Great Gazoo]

 

Anyways, suffice it to say that this insistence on men's parts that women NEED them isn't necessarily the most honest statement, I think. IME when you lean heavily on anyone, when you are in strife or pain, they will buckle under the pressure -- or worse, begin to resent your need.

 

I'm just saying.

 

This is a post I also understand, I really don't mind being the rock for my wife, I like the way she has her independence but I also like the way she has a soft heart and relies on me for backing but yeah the pressure is what brought me to LS in the first place and I still am having trouble keeping my footing and when I buckle I break.

[lindya]

Anyways, suffice it to say that this insistence on men's parts that women NEED them isn't necessarily the most honest statement, I think. IME when you lean heavily on anyone, when you are in strife or pain, they will buckle under the pressure -- or worse, begin to resent your need.

 

I'm just saying.

 

 

I agree. I've been there, and I have to say that I will never again attempt to rely on a boyfriend when I'm at my most vulnerable. That's not to sound cynical (though I appreciate it probably does sound that way)...it's just that I do find men lose respect for you in those situations, and once the respect is gone everything else starts to go too.

 

I tend to think that the protective male/helpless female roles are something best acted out in a non-serious manner...for entertainment, romantic or sexual purposes.

[serial muse]

Of course, that wasn't what I was trying to say at all, but that's what he heard. I panicked and went into recovery mode. Tried to explain that I wasn't saying "I don't need you" … but that you shouldn't stress yourself out about stuff like this because I'm perfectly capable of taking care of myself. I need you … but I'm not "needy" … if that makes any sense at all. (???)

 

Of course, all I did was dig an even deeper hole for myself!

 

From all my conversations with John, the one thing I've learned is that a lot of men want to feel needed even if, in actuality, a woman is perfectly capable of handling her own. But in all fairness, I think women like to feel needed and appreciated, too. John describes it as his male "protector" thing … he LIKES feeling as if he's taking care of me. Even if (in his words): "It's opening a pickle jar, mowing the lawn, filling the gas tank, killing that spider, or lifting something heavy for me."

 

I think the most difficult challenge a self-sufficient woman sometimes faces when she enters into a relationship is NOT letting on to her masculine partner that she isn't necessarily the weaker sex. Walking that fine line between showing her softer, more vulnerable feminine side while at the same time proving to her partner that she can be a strong, contributing equal in that relationship in every other way.

 

So guys: how does an independent woman go about showing her partner: I don't love you because I need you … I need you because I love you. (???)

 

That's one of the things I'm currently struggling to work on, myself. And with my partner's help and honest feedback, I'm hoping that I'll eventually find that balance and learn how.

 

I think this is so interesting - you're not alone, Enigma. I don't know a single woman who hasn't struggled with this same issue. It's incredibly difficult to figure out what anyone really wants, and how to "keep them happy". People often don't know what they really want - and that goes for both men and women.

 

I mean, super - you wrote this:

 

...as a result of the differing desires of what women say they want?

 

but why is it necessary to place the blame on women, who have been dealing with this same issue for ages - i.e., how to be what the man they love wants, when he himself isn't sure what he wants from her?

 

Why not just recognize that we're all human, and yeah, we make it difficult for ourselves lots of times, but there's no need to blame our human idiosyncrasies on gender when the trouble is we're just frustrated with inconsistency in general? Mixed messages are universal, but it's so counter-productive to create a deeper gulf between men and women rather than to try to bridge it.

[superconductor]

... but why is it necessary to place the blame on women, who have been dealing with this same issue for ages - i.e., how to be what the man they love wants, when he himself isn't sure what he wants from her?

It's not blame per se that is at the root of the issue. It is the changing nature of relationships, which have been fundamentally altered since the end of WWII.

 

Look, who's to say that the women's movement hasn't created new opportunities for women to venture forth as individuals in their own right, and not be dependent upon a man? I personally believe that it's all good. I don't see how any clear-thinking individual could argue that women shouldn't be paid the same as men, or get promoted like men or anything of the sort. That is as it should be.

 

The difference, at least as I see it, is that women no longer need men, and as a result men have floundered for decades, trying on various social personas to try and re-invent themselves as supportive and worthy partners.

 

But it hasn't worked. Much of this, I believe, has to do with the changing social structures of what is a man and what is not, and what women say they want in a man and the personality traits that they actually gravitate to.

 

How many times do we see a woman say that she wants a supportive, emotionally-available partner, but when they find one they label him as a spineless wimp? How many times do they say they want someone with a good heart, but will leave him in a heartbeat when a fatter wallet comes by? How many times do they say they want a good father figure, but end up riding off on the back of a Harley with a proverbial bad boy? How many times does a woman say she wants someone who takes care of himself, but tosses him aside when she realizes that he's spending more time on personal grooming and more money on clothesthan she does?

 

It is, of course, as much men's fault as anyone. Donning various personas and cultivating particular personality traits to make themselves attractive to women is in fundamental conflict with their integrated selves, and is fundamentally dishonest. But the reasoning, at least as I see it, is because women are now so empowered, financially, politically, socially and domestically, that they have no need for a male figure. They may want one from time to time, but men seem to be seen now more as an option than as standard equipment.

 

And, I gotta tell ya, from this viewpoint, it hurts. It makes us - well, me anyway - feel disposable.

[RecordProducer]

Superconducter, you're mixing apples and oranges, in my opinion. When women didn't have equal legal, social, and moral rights, it was unfair. But what you're trying to defend here is that although given the same rights, men suffer from the fact that women have the same rights. Women didn't want to put men in darkness so that they can have nicer lives. Women just wanted to treated as humans, just like men.

 

You are saying that because women are treated like humans now, men have lost their position, strength, and social benefits. In other words, giving everyone the same chance made it difficult for one group (men), which means if we go back to the old times when women were treated like less-of-humans, you men would benefit from that. I have little respect for those who want to kill me in order to get the rabbit I caught, because they believe that I took the rabbit from THEM.

 

Besides, I assure you that if you are a good guy with a good income, you can find a good woman who will be happy to be a stay-at-home mommy and take good care of you. You think that we don't need to be married anymore, because we can make our own money. No! We don't need to put up with crap anymore, because we have the support of the society to live independently. We still need romance. Marriage as an institution has become a love nest rather than a financial/parental community as it used to be. Thank god! So women don't need to be married if marriage is not providing them with love and affection and understanding.

 

Good old times were not so good for the gender that use to be called "weaker."

 

About fathers and child suport... this world is still full of men who are capable of abandoning their children because they met a new cute girl. You expect an applause for that?

[Walk]

But I don't understand this whole "Need" thing. I want to be wanted. But hell, it would scare the daylights out of me if my SO needed me all the time. Frankly, there are times in my life that I just can't be there 100% of the time. Take Enigma's example. Her SO couldn't be there right then because keeping he was keeping the income steady. Which is a lot more important then changing the oil, in my opinon.

 

If it's a want, then those can be comprimised on. Enigma's SO comprimised by ensuring the work related matters were priority (the bigger want/need), but had to bow out of the lesser desire of jointly getting the car serviced.

 

Needs can't be comprimised on. At all. If they aren't met, then either someone dies, or there's serious harm from not meeting it. (starving, freezing, etc.)

 

Why does it have to hurt a man's pride if I tell him "I need to do this for myself". If he wants to fulfill all my needs, then he will have to be 100% dead on 24/7. No one can do that. To think he could is asinine. So the only thing I'm left with is that he doesn't have enough belief in his own value, to feel confident that I will "want" him for who he is. That he feels if I don't need him, then he's replaceable.. and since he doesn't feel he's worth enough to want.. then I wouldn't want him either??

 

I don't know... but I can't "need" a man, no matter how much he wants me to feel that way. I can lie my fool head off about it. But it doesn't change the fact that if I "needed" him, then it would mean I'm incapable of providing for myself.. and I never want to be in that situation.

[a4a]

It's not blame per se that is at the root of the issue. It is the changing nature of relationships, which have been fundamentally altered since the end of WWII.

 

I think it started to change more once women realized that they were not property, that they should indeed have rights.... voting and the ability to actually own their own property. Womens sufferage movement.

 

 

 

 

 

The difference, at least as I see it, is that women no longer need men, and as a result men have floundered for decades, trying on various social personas to try and re-invent themselves as supportive and worthy partners.

 

yep that may be true. So should men keep grumbling about the way things were should be the way they should be now? Spouting off that woman belong in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant It is not going to happen.

Men need to adjust to today and quit day dreaming that the good old days can exist..... news the good old days were not the good old days in reality. Just it was taboo to let anyone know you were screwing the neighbor and divorce did have a social stigma...... so it was there just not in the public view.

 

 

 

How many times do we see a woman say that she wants a supportive, emotionally-available partner, but when they find one they label him as a spineless wimp? How many times do they say they want someone with a good heart, but will leave him in a heartbeat when a fatter wallet comes by? How many times do they say they want a good father figure, but end up riding off on the back of a Harley with a proverbial bad boy? How many times does a woman say she wants someone who takes care of himself, but tosses him aside when she realizes that he's spending more time on personal grooming and more money on clothesthan she does?

 

This not just a woman problem but a human problem. How many men say they want a virtuous, loving, loyal, good mother, good wife, and attractive wife but end up mind humping a stripper at a club....or really humping a real tart.

 

,

but men seem to be seen now more as an option than as standard equipment.

 

I honestly do see it that way myself...... but I am not everyone. So you need to find a codependent woman I guess....but don't bitch about how insecure she is either when she gets too clingy and needy. See you can't win this one. Neither sex can.

 

And, I gotta tell ya, from this viewpoint, it hurts. It makes us - well, me anyway - feel disposable.

 

Ah have you ever heard a woman say she felt "used"...... well welcome to the disposable world.