Is Love enough? What is love? Need men's input pls!

[princessa]

I was having this discussion with my friend the other day... We both seem to know some guys who say they absolutely love their girlfriends.. I mean they're really convinced that they LOVE them... And yet act very selfishly. They get defensive when the gf expresses discontent with anything regarding the relationship, or complains about something, no matter how small and easy to fix the complaint would be. They just seem to think that the fact that they love the girl should be enough.

 

They seem to think along the lines:

 

"I love you as you are, I never complain about anything. So why are you complaining? I love you and it should be enough. If you love me as well you shouldn't be trying to change me, you should love me as I am, no matter what I do."

 

Basically they seem to think that if you love them you shouldn't be complaining, or ever asking anything of them. Does that make any sense?? Do you think these people really know what love is??

 

Guys, do any of you recognize yourselves in this?

[alphamale]

Guys, do any of you recognize yourselves in this?

yes, I do...

[princessa]

yes, I do...

 

Mind elaborating?

[alphamale]

Mind elaborating?

no, not really

[princessa]

Anybody interested in having a mature discussion?

[LVspecB]

"I love you as you are, I never complain about anything. So why are you complaining? I love you and it should be enough. If you love me as well you shouldn't be trying to change me, you should love me as I am, no matter what I do."

I think some women (trying hard to avoid too big a generalization here) look at their mates as a "work-in-progress". Like a Chinese menu, they'll pick the spouse's qualities they like and feel that, at some point, they'll work on changing the other character traits. Ambitious, has a good job? Check, keep that one. Collects rare comic books? Later on (after marriage), that will have to go...

 

Shouldn't be surprising that some men (same caveat applies) resist this process. Having said that, the phrase "no matter what I do" does give me some pause.

 

LVspecB

[princessa]

I think some women (trying hard to avoid too big a generalization here) look at their mates as a "work-in-progress". Like a Chinese menu, they'll pick the spouse's qualities they like and feel that, at some point, they'll work on changing the other character traits. Ambitious, has a good job? Check, keep that one. Collects rare comic books? Later on (after marriage), that will have to go...

 

Shouldn't be surprising that some men (same caveat applies) resist this process. Having said that, the phrase "no matter what I do" does give me some pause.

 

LVspecB

 

So how do you get your man to trust that you're not an unreasonable person and you're not trying to change the essence of his character, but nevertheless need him to do things for you from time to time? Or just need some things done differently?

 

I think the least he could do is discuss with you whether changing something about himself is a big deal or not, instead of just categorically saying "NO, you should be happy with me as I am". I thought relationships were all about compromise??

 

I usually welcome some level of criticism from my guy. I mean, I want to learn what makes him happy. Why can't he do the same for me? I don't think anybody can be 100% for another person without putting at least some effort into learning what makes the other person happy.

[superconductor]

I think some women (trying hard to avoid too big a generalization here) look at their mates as a "work-in-progress". Like a Chinese menu, they'll pick the spouse's qualities they like and feel that, at some point, they'll work on changing the other character traits. Ambitious, has a good job? Check, keep that one. Collects rare comic books? Later on (after marriage), that will have to go...

 

Shouldn't be surprising that some men (same caveat applies) resist this process. Having said that, the phrase "no matter what I do" does give me some pause.

 

LVspecB

Truer words have rarer been spoken. There seems to be some real truth to the claim that men marry women in hopes that they don't change, but they do, and women marry men in hopes that they will change, but they don't.

[norajane]

If you love me as well you shouldn't be trying to change me, you should love me as I am, no matter what I do.

His mother might be capable of that, but it's not likely that any woman is going to be able to deal with behavior that is inconsiderate or selfish or whatever if that behavior makes her feel unhappy in the relationship.

 

I think it really depends on what behavior those guys are defending. Sometimes that statement/belief might be justified, but other times it's not.

[kulyok]

I had such a situation a few years ago, and at first I was really confused. Then I learnt to deal with it.

 

If a boyfriend did something small and easy I was upset about(note: not "Hey, _you_ did _wrong_!", but "_I_ am upset" - "I-statements"), for example, came to pick me up for a date half an hour late, I would react like this:

 

Step 1. "Honey, I am so happy to see you!" - because I really am, I love him and I am happy to see him. He must remember, he is coming to me and there he is welcome, he is loved.

 

Step 2. A few minutes later, I'll tell him about the problem.

 

- "I have to admit something to you, dear."

- "Yeah, what is it?"

- "I am enjoying our date, and your company - of course! But still, I am a bit upset."

- "Really? What's up?"

- "Because I feel discomfort: I really expected our date to start at seven, and now it's already a quater to eight. I did not worry too much, of course, because you love me and I knew you were all right, but still, I am upset."

- "Oh."

 

Step 3. Keeping my speech positive(and a charming smile), I'll offer a solution.

 

- "Yeah. I know we'll have a gorgeous date - heck, with you I always have a good time, you know. But I'll be just so much happier and more comfortable when(note: not if, when) you come on time."

- "... Sure."

 

 

If it's a bigger issue, like house chores, or spending habits, I'd sit down to talk(asking him for twenty minutes of his time beforehand, so he is sure I'll not go on for hours), provided TV and computers are turned off.

 

 

But - and it's a big but. If a guy is abusive, rude, or downright dismissive, I'll make a *huge* scandal, and I'll make sure he understands this behavior is *not* acceptable - from the very beginning. The second time, he'll be dumped.

[pricillia]

but it is annoying when someone trys to change you. People change in time with infulence yes but nagging is just damm annoying.

 

It is almost like boyfriend in training. If you like, love someone then accept them with the pros and cons...

 

To the original poster what exactly would you like to change about SO or

what do your girlfreinds want to change?

[princessa]

Hehe.. kulyok, that's wise, I'm learning that right now...... slowly

 

So then what do you do if the next time he's late? And what if he arrives on time the next day, and then expects you to stop complaining about all the subsequent times when he's late just because he's made the effort ONCE? Should you just be nice about it all the time?

 

Sometimes when I consistently make the effort to NOT be upset about such things and be nice, and he keeps doing them.. it makes me think that being nice is just pointless.. But when I make a scene then EVERYTHING gets done immediately, like magic! But then of course he resents me for it and is even less motivated to consider my complaints when they're done nicely.

 

It's a vicious circle!

[Woggle]

Because nagging gets on a man's nerves. I know how I feel about a woman if I deem her good enough to commit to so I don't get why she would ever question my intentions. Some women just try to analyze everything and after a while they destroyed the relationship. They don't know how to live in the moment.

[pricillia]

{But when I make a scene then EVERYTHING gets done immediately, like magic! But then of course he resents me for it and is even less motivated to consider my complaints when they're done nicely.

 

It's a vicious circle!}

 

Why do you have to make a scene??? If the tables were turned would you be motivated???

[Woggle]

{But when I make a scene then EVERYTHING gets done immediately, like magic! But then of course he resents me for it and is even less motivated to consider my complaints when they're done nicely.

 

It's a vicious circle!}

 

Why do you have to make a scene??? If the tables were turned would you be motivated???

 

Exactly. Would women want to change anything if they were being screamed at and demeaned to do so?

[LVspecB]

I think it really depends on what behavior those guys are defending. Sometimes that statement/belief might be justified, but other times it's not.

But the behavior he is defending most likely existed early on in the relationship. And it is puzzling to us men that the "girlfriend" tolerated the behavior but the "wife" finds it unacceptable.

men marry women in hopes that they don't change, but they do, and women marry men in hopes that they will change, but they don't.

Wow, that's good! There it is, princessa, the other side of the coin...

 

LVspecB

[princessa]

but it is annoying when someone trys to change you. People change in time with infulence yes but nagging is just damm annoying.

 

It is almost like boyfriend in training. If you like, love someone then accept them with the pros and cons...

 

To the original poster what exactly would you like to change about SO or

what do your girlfreinds want to change?

 

It's not any MAJOR personality changes that we're after! It's more like.. If I ask you to just DO something for me.. and I know it's easy for you.. then why in the hell do you not just DO IT?

 

You can't accept somebody 100%. There isn't somebody out there who's already 100% fit for you. If there were, then the relationship game would be about dating as much as possible until you find that one person. Instead it's more like, find the MOST compatible one.. then compromise on whatever is not compatible.

 

I'm not trying to change anything in particular.. I just want him to be less resistent to the stuff I ask of him and not make such a huge deal about my complaining once in a while. But being late could be one example in my case.

[princessa]

{But when I make a scene then EVERYTHING gets done immediately, like magic! But then of course he resents me for it and is even less motivated to consider my complaints when they're done nicely.

 

It's a vicious circle!}

 

Why do you have to make a scene??? If the tables were turned would you be motivated???

 

Because when I'm being nice he keeps doing the same annoying things once, twice, three times.. after that I give up and make a scene.. I feel he doesn't listen otherwise?

[norajane]

But the behavior he is defending most likely existed early on in the relationship. And it is puzzling to us men that the "girlfriend" tolerated the behavior but the "wife" finds it unacceptable.

 

This was hypothetical question, so I don't know what behaviors we're talking about. But, ok, I'll play.

 

So, when I'm dating, I might not care that he leaves his dirty socks and underwear strewn all over the bathroom. It's his bathroom, so whatever. When we're living together, then, yeah, the smelly ickiness every day might bother me. So, yes, I'd ask him to change that behavior and put his dirty things in the hamper. Is that change really so threatening to his 'self'?

[princessa]

Because nagging gets on a man's nerves. I know how I feel about a woman if I deem her good enough to commit to so I don't get why she would ever question my intentions. Some women just try to analyze everything and after a while they destroyed the relationship. They don't know how to live in the moment.

 

Of course nagging gets on a man's nerves. I understand that. But why do you men feel like we're questionning your intentions when we ask you to do somethig simple for us? Nobody's questionning your intentions or commitment here. So why do you get defensive when we ask you to do something? You have shortcomings too, so why acting like we question your intentions and making a fuss about it instead of trying to fix them?

[LVspecB]

You can't accept somebody 100%.

Yeah, you can. And in fact, you have to. "Accept" means coming to terms with their strengths and weaknesses, assets and liabilities, attributes and flaws. I am only now coming to terms with this in my own marriage.

I'm not trying to change anything in particular.. I just want him to be less resistent to the stuff I ask of him

Sounds like secret female code for "I'm trying to change him"...

 

LVspecB

[pricillia]

Because when I'm being nice he keeps doing the same annoying things once, twice, three times.. after that I give up and make a scene.. I feel he doesn't listen otherwise?

 

 

so when you make a scene he does not help out, when you are too nice he does not help out, maybe this is not the guy for you.

 

Hey I am not in a relationship now but even if I was, I would not be so demanding of someone that I turned them off, reguardless of being a couple people are still individuals and they like doing certian things and dislike doing certian things, is this the only area in your relationship that is having problems it must be affecting other areas of your relationship.

 

Reguardless if you are right or wrong no one likes a complainer, so maybe you can use a different approach... husbands and boyfriends are not children and we should not treat them as such.

 

Princessa you have tried two different approaches and neither of them are working what about just enjoying the relationship?

 

If he is taking advantage of you that is one thing then you should let him know.

[LVspecB]

So, when I'm dating, I might not care that he leaves his dirty socks and underwear strewn all over the bathroom. It's his bathroom, so whatever. When we're living together, then, yeah, the smelly ickiness every day might bother me. So, yes, I'd ask him to change that behavior and put his dirty things in the hamper. Is that change really so threatening to his 'self'?

Well, I can tell you that when I was single, I never left my "dirty socks and underwear strewn all over the bathroom". And, of the several roommates I had, don't recall any of them that did that either. I would characterize your hypothetical boyfriend as "messy", and would say that you will have a challenge on your hands if, post-cohabitation, you think he is going to change, under pressure from you or not...

 

LVspecB

[princessa]

But the behavior he is defending most likely existed early on in the relationship. And it is puzzling to us men that the "girlfriend" tolerated the behavior but the "wife" finds it unacceptable.

 

See, I am not wife. And this is why I feel I have to see if I can come to terms with his shortcomings before IF and before I become wife.

[pricillia]

Of course nagging gets on a man's nerves. I understand that. But why do you men feel like we're questionning your intentions when we ask you to do somethig simple for us? Nobody's questionning your intentions or commitment here. So why do you get defensive when we ask you to do something? You have shortcomings too, so why acting like we question your intentions and making a fuss about it instead of trying to fix them?

 

"You Men"

 

it is like beating your head against a wall pretty soon princessa your going to bleed. I think that you should change your attitude towards the oppostite sex, take a break then get back into the game.

 

Put it this way if you had a son that came of age and started dating a girl would you want her to nag him all of the time or would you want him to be in a happy fullfilled relationship where both of thier needs were being met.

 

If he is resisting you then you should back off a little don't keep on pushing. Be confident in yourslef that you don't need a man to do things for you, heck learn how to do them for yourself.