divorce seperation

[Guest]

My wife and I dated almost five years before getting married. We would have fights when we dated but nothing out of the ordinary. We were engaged for 13 months before we got married. My wife immersed herself in the planning of the wedding. We bought a house one month prior to getting married we moved our stuff in and painted the walls and we were very busy and stressed out right before the wedding. I started to drink a lot 2 months before the wedding. I was drinking every night. We got married in October 2005. We started to have problems right from the start. We were fighting about everything. It didn’t help at all that we were house poor and now we were paycheck to paycheck. She was concerned with my drinking and we fought about that as well. One month into the marriage we got into a big fight and she called her mother. Her mother came over and talked to her and talked to me. Her parents were a source for arguments as well because I felt that they were too involved in our lives. We had another fight where she called her mother again this time her mother and father both came over and her dad ran up to me and acted like he wanted to hit me he also said "what did dickhead do now". They lectured us for 3 hours and then left. After this my relationship with them was strained at best. She brought up counseling and at first I really didn’t want to go. She went to the first counseling session without me because she didn’t tell me about it. I went to the next four and I refused to go to the last one. The counselor told us it was a power struggle but really nothing else. My wife had her wisdom teeth out I had a made plans well in advance of her appointment. I told her I could cancel my plans and I could take her to the appointment she told me that it was ok her mother was taking her. I asked again if she was sure she said yes. I got back at around 3:30 her cheeks were swelled and she wasn’t feeling very well. I sat with her and went and got her ice cream. Later that night I went upstairs to check on my wife and she told me that her mother was going to sleep in bed with her. I found this bizarre and it really bothered me. My wife's mother would pressure her and I to spend time with them. They have a ski boat and every weekend during the summer I would feel pressure from my wife to go. I felt like a couple of times a year would be sufficient but my wife wanted to go considerably more. When we got back from our honeymoon her parents were waiting at our house. During the initial big fight divorce came up I said something stupid trying to be hurtful that I would buy her out of the house. After that fight she thought that I had lied about my investments because she thought I sold them all to buy the house. She misunderstood me when I told her I had to sell some. Now she thought I was hiding money from her and our relationship continued to get worse. My father owned a company that I was a share holder of during the marriage my brother bought everyone out including myself. I got a considerable amount of money. She became angry that I put the money into my checking account. I got this money two weeks prior to her moving out. My wife and I got steadily worse as we were married. Mothers’ day she told me she didn’t want me to go to her family’s house because she couldn’t deal with the strained relationship between her mother and myself. For fathers day we went to my brothers house to celebrate birthdays and fathers day. During that visit my father’s wife invited us down to their boat I said yes let me check with my wife. She said that she didn’t want to go because she felt that my family wasn’t nice to her because of our problems. This really angered me and I stopped talking to her completely. When I would get home I would meet my friends and stay out until 9:30 or 10:00pm. This went on for ten days and in that time we had a counseling meeting I refused to go. I told her my reasons were that the counselor really doesn’t say anything and we really weren’t trying. I told her there is no sense in throwing away the money. June 30th 2006 while I was at work she moved her stuff out including all of the beds. I got home she was sitting in the car with some of her family. She got out and told me she moved out and handed me a letter. I told her the reason I was so angry the last ten days was I wanted to go away with her and when she refused it hurt me. Her response to this was if you would have asked me to go away with just you I would have gone. The letter stated that she contacted a lawyer and we could file a no fault divorce if I complied this it would be over in ninety days. The weeks leading up to her moving out she was trying to validate our relationship asking questions like do you want children, someday would you like a bigger house and will we be able to afford children and many other questions along the same lines. After she left I stayed with two friends. She called me a couple of times upset and we would talk she would complain about mistakes I made and the drinking. That weekend I packed up a lot of my stuff and moved it to their ( my two friends) house I also got a storage facility. Since she was gone and I knew I wasn’t going to be watching television I canceled the cable, newspaper and the telephone. I didn’t even think about it at the time but when I canceled the cable it canceled our email account. She used the account I never did. She called me up furious she told me she wanted bought out of the house for a certain figure more then what she put into the house. I told her that I couldn’t afford it and she said that is a lie I am sitting on a boatload of money. She hung up the phone and two days later she left me a message that she had a buyout figure and she left it at the house. She also carbon copied my father. Her father called my father to tell him about the letter. I got the letter and it stated what she put into the house along with things that she paid for like homeowners insurance, blinds and money that she gave me for taxes I had to pay while we were married. The letter went on to say that I should buy her out for a certain dollar figure or she will go after me financially. I contacted a lawyer because I was scared. My wife called me up after she sent the letter and I told her I was going to a lawyer. This upset her. I called her a few days later and I asked about reconciling and going to another counselor. She said if I quit drinking for six months to call her but it wasn’t really what she wanted. After that phone call I was upset I packed up all of my stuff in the house emptied it completely. I called a realtor and I spoke to the wife she agreed but seemed surprised. I called my lawyer and asked her to file for divorce. I told my wife that I was filing for a divorce and her resonse was “any particular reason”. My lawyer instead sent out a letter that said I was willing to work on things and I would go to counseling. I did tell her that when I first met with her because at that time my intentions were not to file for divorce. My lawyer told me she did this so that if my wife files I can control when the divorce is over, meaning if I file the wife can refuse to sign the papers and drag this out. I got a copy of the letter as well as my wife she called me up a week after it was sent and told me that I was sending mixed signals because I had accused her of the same earlier in the process. I told her that if she was worried about it that she can file for the divorce. She never did. The house was up for sale but the price was way too high. The realtor wanted to lower it and I did as well. My wife didn’t want to lower the price I called her and asked her if we could lower the price she said no. A week after this I do not know why maybe because it was the two years prior that we got engaged but I missed not that I didn’t miss her the whole time but I felt like enough time has passed. I called her and told her I missed her she told me she missed me as well. I called her the next day with the same message. I called her a third day straight only once each day. On the third day she told me that emotionally she can’t handle me calling everyday then we went on to discuss where I made mistakes. I told her I wanted to reconcile and she told me she wasn’t ready for that. She called me back a couple of hours later to apologize for having to get off of the phone so quickly and if I need to call her she is ok with it. I told her that it was alright we both said what we needed to say then she said don’t hate me. I spoke to my friends that I was living with and the one told me that to move forward I really should try to get a face to face meeting. He told me this because I was reading into everything she was saying. She would say I’m not ready and I would see a ray of light, then she would say don’t hate me and I would think that meant I don’t want to be with you don’t hate me for that. I wrote her a letter that stated where I knew I had made mistake and let her know that the drinking was under control. The letter went on to say how I fell in love with her and why I married her. I closed the letter with me saying I would like to reconcile. Can we have meeting to discuss getting back together. I said at worst we will at least have had a face to face meeting to discuss our future whether that means together or as individuals. I am just confused I do miss her I do love her but I also know we all want things we can’t have and I know that part of this is loneliness. But the same token, we were together for many years and they were good years prior to the power struggle and the marriage. I guess I do not know how or where to proceed. I know I shouldn’t call again or should I. I would just like some advice on how I should proceed.

[LakesideDream]

Very confusing post. You both must be fairly young.

 

A suggestion that might help in the future, use pagination. Breaking your thoughts into paragraphs would make it much easier to understand.

[Guest]

Very confusing post. You both must be fairly young.

 

A suggestion that might help in the future, use pagination. Breaking your thoughts into paragraphs would make it much easier to understand.

 

 

 

I am sorry it is hard to follow. I am 30 she is 29. I know it would seem by the games that we play back and forth that we are 10 years old.

[Gunny376]

On Mutts Thread

 

Devil Dog and his wife eventually got divorced.

 

ilmw and his wife are still separated, but not divorce and there may be a chance for them, but he's in a good place either way it goes down. His story is an excellent way of handling this with balance and patience

 

UKSurfer and his wife ~ as of last post are re-conciling. His too is a story of patience and balance. Not that Devil Dog didn't have that ~ he certainly did.

[Guest]

On Mutts Thread

 

Devil Dog and his wife eventually got divorced.

 

ilmw and his wife are still separated, but not divorce and there may be a chance for them, but he's in a good place either way it goes down. His story is an excellent way of handling this with balance and patience

 

UKSurfer and his wife ~ as of last post are re-conciling. His too is a story of patience and balance. Not that Devil Dog didn't have that ~ he certainly did.

 

How long is too long to be patient? We are at an impass right now. I spoke to her on the phone last night and her response is still I am not ready for that. I do not know if I am holding onto false hope or not since I can't get a direct answer either way.

[Gunny376]

The only two people on the planet that can answer that question is the two of you. But, generally on average about six months to nine months, possibly a year.

 

A lot of variables there. How much mind - game playing goes on, how much you contribute negative emotions to the downward spirial. How childish each of you want to get in all of this ~ (do you see what I'm driving at?)

 

Or, you can say, "Nope! Not going there! I refuse to play these silly ass games, I'm going to hold myself accountable, and what is more I'm going to hold you accountable to be a grown up, mature and responsible.

 

Depends on how much you value your marriage, and your relationship with the DW.

 

But, she's already told you to give her some time, (and I believe this is a legitimate plea for give me sometime to sort this out in my head and not the "I need sometime and space because I've got another man waiting in th wings" type deal. ~ *CAUTION* Subject to change as this plays out)

 

Part of this the way I see it, is the wife is finding out that marriage is a lot more than planning and having a big wedding, buying a house, and "playing house"! Its a lot of compromise and hard work. And, its not the kind of compromise where just one party does all of the compromising ~ its a win-win compromise on both parts.

 

Divorce ~ stay together, doesn't matter. Until each of you work on your own personal weakness (you've got to identify them first) you're going to keep getting the same old, same old regardless of who you're with.

 

Go to MarriageBuilder's and read about a women's emotional needs, and then go back and print this thread off where you intially posted, and I think a couple of light bulbs will go off in your deleuxe brain housing group!

 

Arguing about money is rarely about money ~ its about power

 

Arguing about sex is rearely about sexuality ~ its about intimacy

 

Arguing about chorse is rarely about chores ~ its about fairness

 

Arguing about the kids is rarely about the kids ~ its about control

 

Arguing about jealosy is rarely about fidelity ~ its about maturity

 

Arguing about work is rarely about the work ~ its about time

 

Arguing about relatives is rarely about them ~ its about expectations.

 

You probally need to work on your listenig skills (most of us do ~ its a work in progress)

 

"When I ask you to listen to me an dyou start giving me advice, you have not done what I asked. Whe I ask you to listen to me and you begin to tell me I shouldn't feel that way, you are trampling my feelings. When I ask you to listen and you feel you have to do someting to soluve my problems you have failed me. All I ask is that you listen ~ not talk!"

[Guest]

Thank you for your advice. I have played games in the time she left and I have contributed to this getting worse in the short run. I have since stopped and I am trying to an adult. I feel that it is best for right now to not call her maybe once a week. She does need space and i need to respect that. No matter what I say right now I don't think that it will change her mind or what she wants to do. We were only married for 8 months prior to her moving her stuff out so I would think the longer this goes the more likely that we will not get back together.

[Guest]

The only two people on the planet that can answer that question is the two of you. But, generally on average about six months to nine months, possibly a year.

 

A lot of variables there. How much mind - game playing goes on, how much you contribute negative emotions to the downward spirial. How childish each of you want to get in all of this ~ (do you see what I'm driving at?)

 

Or, you can say, "Nope! Not going there! I refuse to play these silly ass games, I'm going to hold myself accountable, and what is more I'm going to hold you accountable to be a grown up, mature and responsible.

 

Depends on how much you value your marriage, and your relationship with the DW.

 

But, she's already told you to give her some time, (and I believe this is a legitimate plea for give me sometime to sort this out in my head and not the "I need sometime and space because I've got another man waiting in th wings" type deal. ~ *CAUTION* Subject to change as this plays out)

 

Part of this the way I see it, is the wife is finding out that marriage is a lot more than planning and having a big wedding, buying a house, and "playing house"! Its a lot of compromise and hard work. And, its not the kind of compromise where just one party does all of the compromising ~ its a win-win compromise on both parts.

 

Divorce ~ stay together, doesn't matter. Until each of you work on your own personal weakness (you've got to identify them first) you're going to keep getting the same old, same old regardless of who you're with.

 

Go to MarriageBuilder's and read about a women's emotional needs, and then go back and print this thread off where you intially posted, and I think a couple of light bulbs will go off in your deleuxe brain housing group!

 

Arguing about money is rarely about money ~ its about power

 

Arguing about sex is rearely about sexuality ~ its about intimacy

 

Arguing about chorse is rarely about chores ~ its about fairness

 

Arguing about the kids is rarely about the kids ~ its about control

 

Arguing about jealosy is rarely about fidelity ~ its about maturity

 

Arguing about work is rarely about the work ~ its about time

 

Arguing about relatives is rarely about them ~ its about expectations.

 

You probally need to work on your listenig skills (most of us do ~ its a work in progress)

 

"When I ask you to listen to me an dyou start giving me advice, you have not done what I asked. Whe I ask you to listen to me and you begin to tell me I shouldn't feel that way, you are trampling my feelings. When I ask you to listen and you feel you have to do someting to soluve my problems you have failed me. All I ask is that you listen ~ not talk!"

 

Gunny,

 

I need your help this is an update to my original post. I really appreciate you advice and time. Thank you. She contacted me one week after I sent the letter and she asked me if I wanted to lower the price on the house I told her if we are going to work on things I would prefer not to but I would leave it up to her. She told me she isn’t ready for that. We spoke for about ten minutes and got off the phone. I did tell her that I am just looking for direction either way. She called and left a message yesterday about mowing the yard at the house. I text messaged her back and just said I would take care of it. I realize that I can’t call her and ask to work on things. I am just confused I do miss her I do love her. We were together for many years and they were good years prior to the power struggle and the marriage. I am not contacting her and I am confused on that should I call maybe once a week and talk about other things or not? Should I not call at all? I would just like to try to work things out and I am not even sure how if she is still angry with me and I realize that I really made things worse with the selling of the house and the telling her I was filing for divorce. I have played games during this which made things much worse. I just got a message that she agreed to lower the price house. After I told her that if we were going to work on things I would prefer not to sell the house. I think this is a strong message that she doesn’t want to work on things. I keep telling myself that until she calls me and tells me to sign the divorce papers it really isn’t over. Am I being crazy? I am s**ting bricks right now and I do not know the best course of action. I have read your advice to people and I am trying to follow the rules from divorce busting. But it seems with no contact we aren’t working on anything.

[Gunny376]

The thing is ~ at this point in the game you're wanting to work on things and she's not. You're contacting her anymore than you have to is just annoying to her. Just about anything you say or do can and will be mis-construed by her. To make matters all the worse the IL's have their little girl back, and you can bet your horse, boots and saddle thaty they're not singing you praises.

 

The no contact is to make you more attractive ~ as oppossed to less, and one of the ways of doing that is by not rubbing salt into an open and festering wound. You can't make an ass out of yourself, following those rules. As I've said the key here is patience and balance. You go and keep trying to talk and work things out ~ and you've for real have screwed the pooch.

 

The other thing, is everything that you say and do is going to be scrutizied by the IL's, especially the MIL. She's listening to her. You can get PO about it ~ but that's going to lessen your case ~ not strengthened it.

 

One month into the marriage we got into a big fight and she called her mother. Her mother came over and talked to her and talked to me. Her parents were a source for arguments as well because I felt that they were too involved in our lives. We had another fight where she called her mother again this time her mother and father both came over and her dad ran up to me and acted like he wanted to hit me he also said "what did dickhead do now". They lectured us for 3 hours and then left.

Here's the deal she's seriously PO with you about the issues you listed in your original post. Added to that you've got the IL's way to involved in your relationship ~ essentially calling the shots, and I suspect throwing you under the bus on a daily basis. Any effort on your part ~ is going to be undermined by the IL's.

 

You've got to be patient ~ impatience will shut you down with a woman quicker than any other thing that you can do. You got to come off as being patient and relaxed, you want to act like that you're Joe Cool on Campus. Impatience screams of your having an agenda from a guy.

 

Calling too many times or too frequently ~ the less you call her the better. Asking her a lot of questions ~ trying to figure out where you stand with her ~ comes across as being to needy and too insecure. You want to come across as being secure in yourself and in your life that you're going to be OK ~ not matter how this pans out.

 

The problem here is that doing the above you're going to come across the same as all the other weak ass, weak minded, needy, insecure men just ever meet before. Which is the exact oppossite of what you want to come across as. You don't want to communicate neediness or being insecure.

 

You want to come across as being strong minded ~ and having strength. Strength equals power. One of the things that women are looking for in men is mental and emotional strength.

 

You subscribe to the "quick, fast, easy, and convieant" mentality ~ the "quick fix" mentality you're screwing up your game. Again this gets back to being inpatient. The patience you demonstrate ~ works for you, not against you. This is the same thing that so many guys have given to her time and time again. She's seen this movie before ~ and tell you the beginning, the middle and the end.

 

That's how the list of 32 makes you attractive ~ it reaks of being secrure and confidant. This also gives her the gift of missing you. Its also gets in her mind ~ and increases her value of you as a man ~ and a rare and hard to find man that is in demand. You adopt the attitude of being secure in your mind and in yourself ~ then you come across as "Hey, I'm going to be OK no matter what. If things don't work out with the X, I'll just go and find me someone else. (And you will, being wiser for the experience).

 

Goggle Carlos Xuma's "Secrets of the Alpha Male" order the program ~ listen to it. When you do ~ you'll see how this works out. How this plays out. And, then you'll be like "Phifffff!" The light bulb will go off in your brainhousing group.

 

There's no shortage of women! And ultimately no single woman has anything more to offer you than any other. Women know this, and women are some of the most insecure people there are ~ because of it. That's why they find a secure man so attractive ~ because ultimately we all seek that which we are lacking in ourselves.

 

Ultimately all divorce comes down to for a man is ~ "I've got to go find me a new girl friend(s)!" Damn the bad luck! If that's the worse problem that you've got ~ then you don't have any problems.

 

Guys tell me, "Yea! But, I love her!" Well yea! I know what that's about. But, ultimately when you boil it all down to the bottom of the pot, Love or being in love is nothing more the self impossed dilussion that any one person has something to offer that the other 6.4 billion other people on the planet don't have to offer. In short ~ its BS!

[Guest]

The thing is ~ at this point in the game you're wanting to work on things and she's not. You're contacting her anymore than you have to is just annoying to her. Just about anything you say or do can and will be mis-construed by her. To make matters all the worse the IL's have their little girl back, and you can bet your horse, boots and saddle thaty they're not singing you praises.

 

The no contact is to make you more attractive ~ as oppossed to less, and one of the ways of doing that is by not rubbing salt into an open and festering wound. You can't make an ass out of yourself, following those rules. As I've said the key here is patience and balance. You go and keep trying to talk and work things out ~ and you've for real have screwed the pooch.

 

The other thing, is everything that you say and do is going to be scrutizied by the IL's, especially the MIL. She's listening to her. You can get PO about it ~ but that's going to lessen your case ~ not strengthened it.

 

Here's the deal she's seriously PO with you about the issues you listed in your original post. Added to that you've got the IL's way to involved in your relationship ~ essentially calling the shots, and I suspect throwing you under the bus on a daily basis. Any effort on your part ~ is going to be undermined by the IL's.

 

You've got to be patient ~ impatience will shut you down with a woman quicker than any other thing that you can do. You got to come off as being patient and relaxed, you want to act like that you're Joe Cool on Campus. Impatience screams of your having an agenda from a guy.

 

Calling too many times or too frequently ~ the less you call her the better. Asking her a lot of questions ~ trying to figure out where you stand with her ~ comes across as being to needy and too insecure. You want to come across as being secure in yourself and in your life that you're going to be OK ~ not matter how this pans out.

 

The problem here is that doing the above you're going to come across the same as all the other weak ass, weak minded, needy, insecure men just ever meet before. Which is the exact oppossite of what you want to come across as. You don't want to communicate neediness or being insecure.

 

You want to come across as being strong minded ~ and having strength. Strength equals power. One of the things that women are looking for in men is mental and emotional strength.

 

You subscribe to the "quick, fast, easy, and convieant" mentality ~ the "quick fix" mentality you're screwing up your game. Again this gets back to being inpatient. The patience you demonstrate ~ works for you, not against you. This is the same thing that so many guys have given to her time and time again. She's seen this movie before ~ and tell you the beginning, the middle and the end.

 

That's how the list of 32 makes you attractive ~ it reaks of being secrure and confidant. This also gives her the gift of missing you. Its also gets in her mind ~ and increases her value of you as a man ~ and a rare and hard to find man that is in demand. You adopt the attitude of being secure in your mind and in yourself ~ then you come across as "Hey, I'm going to be OK no matter what. If things don't work out with the X, I'll just go and find me someone else. (And you will, being wiser for the experience).

 

Goggle Carlos Xuma's "Secrets of the Alpha Male" order the program ~ listen to it. When you do ~ you'll see how this works out. How this plays out. And, then you'll be like "Phifffff!" The light bulb will go off in your brainhousing group.

 

There's no shortage of women! And ultimately no single woman has anything more to offer you than any other. Women know this, and women are some of the most insecure people there are ~ because of it. That's why they find a secure man so attractive ~ because ultimately we all seek that which we are lacking in ourselves.

 

Ultimately all divorce comes down to for a man is ~ "I've got to go find me a new girl friend(s)!" Damn the bad luck! If that's the worse problem that you've got ~ then you don't have any problems.

 

Guys tell me, "Yea! But, I love her!" Well yea! I know what that's about. But, ultimately when you boil it all down to the bottom of the pot, Love or being in love is nothing more the self impossed dilussion that any one person has something to offer that the other 6.4 billion other people on the planet don't have to offer. In short ~ its BS!

 

Gunny,

 

Thank you, I will not contact her and try to play it cool if she calls me. I respect your advice and I think you are right on in what you are saying. It is hard because I feel like I am going against my instincts. I want to call and I want to hear her voice but at the same time I know I shouldn't call. I will keep you updated because like I said I really do value your oppinion. Thank you so much for help and support.

[Island Girl]

First - to Gunny376 ~

 

I agree with just about everything you have to say - however not all women are insecure. In my experience I find just as many insecure men as women.

 

2nd - love is not just an illusion or B**sh*t. I used to think so. Now I know it isn't. Never would have thought it possible that it could be real. It can be. But most people are just hoked on history, etc.

 

NOW ~

 

I read through the entire first post -- had to cut and paste to a document and break it up to ensure I understood what has happened so far.

 

From what I can tell, there were indications of these problems before you got married.

 

The ILs for instance. You say you got married Oct 05. But you indicate that there were previous summers you spent going on the weekends with them. You should have thought about having a conversation about boundaries long before the wedding. If they were at your house when you got back from the honeymoon, I KNOW they overstepped boundaries somewhat before that.

 

Didn't you notice how disturbingly close she was with her parents? Didn't you talk about how when you get married it would become the two of you together and they would have to be secondary? You should have seen that change happen after the engagement when you begin cleaving to eachother to the exclusion of the entire world.

 

What about money? How open were you about finances and how those were going to be dealt with after the marriage?

 

I just can't help believing there were huge red flags before you got married and then they all came waving in rapid succession after the fact.

 

Certainly there is a huge lack of communication. Both of you seem to be so guarded when you talk to eachother and fully ready shoot bullets at the other during hostile negotiations. That will NEVER work. NEVER.

 

I agree with Gunny about the NC except when necessary and behaving from a position of strength not weakness. Act like it even if you don't feel it but start getting honest about what you want in the conversations or it doesn't matter.

 

She is doing a lot of double talk. So are you. You throw divorce out there and then realize that was a mistake. You put the house on the market when you didn't want to. Just stop REACTING and start thinking FIRST. Doing nothing at this point is better than constantly doing things you regret.

 

You are both assuming things and reading into things. You can't stop her from doing it. You can stop yourself. So don't assume. Keep calm when you are talking to her. If she says she wants to sell the house, and you are wondering if that means she doesn't want to work things out, then ask her if that means she wants it over. For God's sake if you don't clarify, you are going to be sitting with a house sold and divorce papers still questioning, did she really want this? Did I?

 

This is not an easy fix. A lot of damage has been done and you have too many participants in what should be just between you two. There is a lot to deal with and those IL aren't going to be easy to push out of the picture even if you get her on your side helping.

 

If you ARE in it for the long haul, and you are not worried about your pride at this point.

You shouldn't be because you have done some pretty embarrassing things.

 

For example--

You asked her if she wanted to spend the weekend with your family and she said she didn't want to because she felt she was being mistreated by your family because of your marital problems.

Her answer made you angry. Because you had wanted to go away with her and she said no. But that isn't what you said.

So you stayed angry and stopped talking to her for 10 days (!?!) going out with your friends so you could avoid her completely until 10 pm. <terribly childish by the way and I hope you learned this tactic doesn't work. It's stupid.>

She then moved out her stuff. You choose that time to finally tell her you just wanted to go away with her for the weekend to which she replied had you just asked that, she would have gone. If you just would have been honest about what you wanted and how you felt she would have gone. Doesn't that tell you anything? You should at least be honest about what you want. Not whiney -- no pleading or begging -- be straightforward honesty about what you want with the strength to accept the consequences. Either she'll say yes, she wants to work it out too - or she'll say she doesn't want to and that is that.

 

You will end up speaking again. Try and let it be her that brings up the relationship. But you may not be able to control yourself and put it out there (you shouldn't).

No matter what happens, BE HONEST and FORTHCOMING. Talk calmly and don't jump to conclusions.

If you do end up talking about staying together be ready to commit to MC and have a clear understanding between the two of you that it is going to be WORK on both your parts.

 

I wish you the best of luck.

[Gunny376]

First - to Gunny376 ~

 

I agree with just about everything you have to say - however not all women are insecure. In my experience I find just as many insecure men as women.

 

I conceed your point ~ Touche'. Most men and women are not secure in themsleves. We all have to work at it. Some of us find it earlier in life than others.

 

 

2nd - love is not just an illusion or B**sh*t. I used to think so. Now I know it isn't. Never would have thought it possible that it could be real. It can be. But most people are just hoked on history, etc.

 

I'll let the stats speak for themsleves:

[Gunny376]

U.S. Divorce Statistics

 

(2002 except where noted)

Total divorces granted in 1997:1,163,000

 

 

Rate per 1,000 population (1999): (excluding CA, CO, IN and LA) 4.1

 

 

State with the lowest divorce rate: (1997) Massachusetts. Rate per 1,000 population: 2.4

 

 

Percentage of population that is married: 59% (down from 62% in 1990, 72% in 1970)

 

Percentage of population that has never married: 24%

 

 

Percentage of population that is divorced: 10% (up from 8% in 1990, 6% in 1980)

Percentage of population that is widowed: 7%

 

Median age at first marriage: Males: 26.9 Females: 25.3

 

 

Median age at first divorce: Males: 30.5 Females: 29

 

 

Median age at second marriage: Males: 34 Females: 32

 

 

Median age at second divorce: Males: 39.3 Females: 37

 

 

Median duration of first marriages that end in divorce: Males: 7.8 years Females: 7.9 years

 

 

Median duration of second marriages that end in divorce: Males: 7.3 years

 

Females: 6.8 years

 

 

Median number of years people wait to remarry after their first divorce:

Males: 3.3 years Females: 3.1 years

 

 

who reach their 5th, 10th, and 15th anniversaries:

5th: 82%

 

10th: 65%

15th: 52%

State with the higest divorce rate: Nevada. Rate per 1,000 population: (1997) 9.0

 

 

Percentage of married people who reach their 25th, 35th, and 50th anniversaries:

 

25th: 33%

35th: 20%[/FONT][/sIZE]

50th: 5%

 

 

 

Percentage of people who have ever been married by the age of 25:]

 

Percentage of people who have ever been married by the age of 35:

Males: 77% Females: 84%

 

 

Percentage of people who have ever been married by the age of 45:

Males: 87%

Females: 90%

 

 

Percentage of people who have ever been married by the age of 55:

Likelihood of new marriages ending in divorce in 1997:

43%

 

Percentage of all householders who are unmarried in 2000:

48%

 

Percentage of weddings which are remarriages for at least one partner in 1997:

43%

 

Percentage of first marriages that end in divorce in 1997:

50%

 

Percentage of remarriages that end in divorce in 1997:

60%

 

Percentage of divorced women who remarry within five years as of 1995:

54%

 

Estimated average length of divorce proceedings in 1997:

1 year

 

Percentage of African American adults in this age group never married in 1998:

53%

 

Percentage of households occupied by one person in 2000:

25.5%

 

Percentage of population (by area of US) who had never married in 1999:

Midwest: 28%

 

Northeast: 28%

South: 26%

West: 29%

Number of married couples (2000):

56,497,000

 

Number of married people whose spouses are absent (2000):

Males: 1,365,000 (1.3%) Females: 1,365,000 (1.2%)

 

 

People who have been widowed (2000):

Males: 2,604,000 Females:11,061,000 (10%)

 

People who are divorced (2000):

Males: 8,572,000 (8.3%) Females: 11,309,000 (10.2%)

 

 

People who are separated (2000):

Males: 1,818,000 (1.8%)

 

Females: 2,661,000 (2.4%)

 

 

Percentage of people that married under the age of 20 who eventually get divorced as of 1995:

40%

Percentage of people that married over the age of 25 who eventually get divorced as of 1995:

24%

Percentage of couples not affiliated with any religious group who eventually get divorced as of 1995:

46%

 

 

Percentage of women whose parents were divorced who get divorced within 10 years as of 1995:

43%

Percentage of women whose parents stayed together who get divorced within 10 years as of 1995:

29%[/sIZE]

Interracial married couples in 2000:

1,047,000

Number of unmarried couples living together:

5.5 million

 

Percentage of unmarried couples living together that are male-female unions:

89%

 

Percentage of women who cohabited before they turned 30 in 1995:

50%

 

Percentage of couples living together for more than five years who eventually marry as of 1995:

70%

 

Number of people divorcing each year as of 1997:

2.5 million

 

Drop in standard of living of females after divorce as of 2000:

45%

 

Number of women who are stalked by a husband or ex-husband every year as of 1997:

380,000

 

Number of men who are stalked by a wife or ex-wife every year as of 1997:

52,000

 

Males: 32% Females: 50%

[Gunny376]

And, good advice.

 

Guest, have you seen the commerical on TV, where yoiu this one guy who's wearing a sweat shirt that says "Electricity" and this other guy who's wearing one that says "Propane"?

 

The propane guy is cool, calm, and collected, while electric guy is a complete idiot, spase-o-zoid, needy, worried, etc. Guess which guy you want to come off as ~ not in-different ~ just cool, calm, and collected and not reacting to either her nor your emotional outbursts.

 

 

You and the DW are caught up in a negative emotional downward spirial. When a plane goes into a downward spirial the first thing he's got to do is maintain control of some pretty serious emoitions ~ now is not the time to loose control of your wits and start freaking out. The first thing to do is to reamin calm, and in control of yourself and then regain control of the plane and pull it out of the downward spiriial.

 

Any communication you have with the DW needs to be positive, up-beat, or at least netural. If you can get her to smiling a little that would be good. But go at her pace. You've hurt her, and on top of that you've made her mad ` and she's a pouty little girl, and if you try to make it all right ~ too quick, too much, too soon, you're going to push her out the picture for good. She's also testing you, so go slow ~ walking through a mine field slow. I mean really, really slow. Just because a woman tells you something doesn't mean that she means it. Women communicate so they don't kick in the image of their being selfish, self-centered, and a gazillion of reasons that has come about as a result of their social and cultural conditioning that goes all the way back to the sandbox at kindergarden.

 

If a woman tells you, not to get her anything for her anniversary ~ you damn well better!

 

Me thinks the two of you are still playing a game of "One-up-man-ship" Quit playing ~ refused to play! Refuse to up the ante' ~ unless of course you just want a divorce. Most states you can drag it out for a year or two. Just quit throwing fuel on the fire.

 

Good phrases to use are

 

"I understand" (and then shut up!)

 

and if she asks you a question ~ don't answer it! Say, I understand, why do you ask? (and then shut up!)

 

These are sales techniques ~ and the product your selling (again) is yourself.

 

The way I was taught some of them was in persuading and overcoming the wife's obections to having sex when she didn't want to.

 

Sales while on the surface looks easy ~ is anything but. But the basis is:

 

Meet and Greet ~ you're on they're side

Qualify ~ What do they want, what are the looking for?

Feature and Benefit ~ Making what your selling appealing and illresitable

Overcoming Objections

Closing the deal.

 

Right now you've got is called a PO buyer! So what you need is someone to TO, take-over the sale. Someone who's going to do a good job of selling you to her, but make damn sure that they're going to go in and do nothing buy feature and benefit you, protray you as Mr. Propane and not Mr. Electric. If you've got a good mutual friend, who really wants to see the two of you get back together would be good ~ but you've got to give this a lot of thought!

 

Patience and balance Grasshopper~! Patience and balance. You've got to come up with a Plan A and a Plan B, (Ref: Marriagebuilder's) I would really recommend Light Her Fire program for use down the road. (But not yet)

 

Remember you've got to go walking through a mine field slow. Accentuate the positive ~ and don't go cold NC, but drift away little by little

[Gunny376]

I would also recommend:

 

"Gendespeak You Just Don't Understand" book

"Men Are From Mars, and Women Are From Venus" book

"Secrets of the Alpha Male" Carlos Xuma - ebook and CD's

"Divorce Busting" Werner-Davis - book

"Five Languages of Love"

[Gunny376]

Remember the golden rule: 1 call for every three times she calls you rule.

 

And, you're not playing games ~ you're trying to build attraction, desire.

[Island Girl]

Hey Gunny376

 

As I and your statistics say -- about half are NOT love. It IS out there but most people do not have a clear understanding of what they want in a relationship.

 

Most people are not forthcoming in communication in a relationship. Most people get wrapped up in the history built with a person and stay or they stay out of fear of being alone.

 

I could go on about the systematic undermining in relationships but we are posting on a thread that illustrates this point.

 

Guest -

 

This relationship had problems when the wedding happened. Clearly there were problems that were not discussed honestly to the point of resolution BEFORE the wedding, i.e. the In-Laws being way too involved.

 

If you are in MC within 6 months of the wedding date there were problems from the begining -- unless you got married a short time after getting together (which then is a set up usually for failure).

 

But you were together for years before. You write as though all of this rapidly fell apart but that is not the case. Your communication on your side at least is a guarded self-protective one-up situation and you are not forthcoming about what you want or your expectations even at this point.

 

I am not advocating calling her. I think you have made enough bad choices with the game playing you have admitted to.

 

I am curious to find out how her communication with you is. Of course her parents are way too close to her relationship which is terrible on its own. But the only place I can get a feeling for how she directly communicates with you is where you say she told you she didn't want to go on your family weekend because your family wasn't nice to her. That is pretty clear. It was you in that situation who did not then explain that you wanted to go away with her. You just stopped all communication for 10 days.

 

In your mind it was a good move to shut off any communication with the person you have married and pledged to forge a life with. Do you have a misconstrued meaning of marriage and what your role is in a marriage?

 

What is it that you want back? Is it that you do not want to be alone and the fear is you will not find anyone else to be with?

 

Why is she 'the one'? Please explain. Because I get the feeling that the time invested and the 'dream' relationship is what you want back. Like you thought when you got married, the house, the picket fence, the blue sky with sunshine just happens and it is like that for a lifetime.

 

I don't mean to hurt you by saying all of this. But you got married to a person you already had big problems with. Her family. Your games. Possibly her games too. Getting married doesn't create a magic glue that keeps you together. The reality is problems in communication, expectations of what being married and what that means to the other person have to be discussed honestly.

 

Women usually fall into this category -- young women -- that getting married is this rosey dream where you just sail along and you are together forever come what may. The man they marry suddenly will be devoted and loving, never cranky or difficult to be around. All the same likes and dislikes, etc.

 

Reality is you get married because you love someone. You love them and understand they are different from you. They may not want to talk when you want to talk. The other person may have a difficult day and say I don't want to talk about it right now. You can't force another person to operate according to you agenda. Boundaries of behavior, how issues are to be resolved, how finances are to be handled, how children will be raised, religion, politics, sex, etc. This should all be discussed honestly before the marriage.

 

That is what marriage counseling is. It brings to light the issues that may not have been discussed. This is a pledge to build a life with someone else come what may.

 

I hate to say it, but at this point in your relationship there has been so much damage it may not be repairable at this point. If there is any chance it will be a long hard road and both of you need to be completely committed to it. If there is any question about the other person may not be in it wholeheartedly it is not going to work. It doesn't seem like there is a foundation of open honest communication as it is.

 

But I really would like to know what she has said up to this point. What did she have to say about her parents being at the house when you got back from your honeymoon? Did you discuss openly how your marriage should be between the two of you and the cord needs to be cut so to speak?

 

She didn't want to go on the weekend because of the way your family treated her due to marital difficulties. Why do they know about your problems? Were you both running to others to discuss problems between the two of you? If so, BIG mistake. Family is NOT who you talk to. You end up telling them all the problems but they are not there during the 'make up' talks and that never gets discussed. They end up hearing all the bad, none of the good, and often their growing dislike is not veiled because of it. It sounds like both of you made this very big mistake.

 

The only thing you can do at this point is wait for some kind of communication to be initiated. If the divorce papers come up in a conversation, you need to be honest with her about what you want, why you want it (you better think of some clear reasons - not just "I love you"), and what you are willing to do to make that happen. Then you are going to have to be prepared for her to make whatever decision she is going to make.

 

There ARE other people out there. You will be fine in time if it ends. But hopefully you will honestly examine your role in the problems that both of you have created and not make the same mistakes.

[Gunny376]

But, its not 50/50. The stats are more like:

 

50% of all firt time marriages end in divorce

But of the remaining 50% that stay married only 13 % report being "Happly Married" The remaining 37% stay together because of the reasons that you listed, i.e. afraid of being alone, the status quo, fiances, the chldren, etc.

 

The divorce rate for 2nd and 3rd marriages is 62% and higher. That is to say the best chance of a couple being happilly married is their first marriage. Albiet, all the more stronger is they're not caught up in some Cinderalla fairy tale, and again I'm a stronger advocate of pre marriage counseling. If I had my way about it, it would be mandatory by law. All the bounderies, rules of engagement, expectations, EM's would be worked out before the marriage, and every one would be walking down the freaking aisle to the alter with a fairly clear picture in their head before the wedding.

 

You can bet your boots, saddle, guns, and horse ~ Hell throw in the ranch too, that if and when this old cowboy gets hitched again that's the way I and the next Mrs. Gunny376 will be going. And even then that will be after a rather long and lengthy engagement.

 

On that note people who dated for six to seven years have the same divorce rate as those that dated less than a year. Those wome that hold graduate degrees have the same divorce rate as those that are high school drop outs. Interesting is it not? So clearly there's a breakeven point which in so far as the courtship seems to be about 2.7 to 3 years, and with the wife holding a BS degree.

 

Personally I believe that the greatest threat to marriage aside from too liberail divorve laws (in some cases, when it comes to abuse some aren't liberal enough) is trying to do too much too soon, too quick. Which clearly seems to a case here. And, yes I think the DW in this scenerio was just as much in love with the idea of getting married and living the American dream with the nice house, picket fence and 2.4 children, etc as she was with anything. Now the shine has worn off that new penny, but quick.

[Island Girl]

I agree wholeheartedly ESPECIALLY the last paragragh:

 

 

There are many reason why a second marriage has a bigger risk of failure then the first. Often, divorced people remarry quickly and find themselves living with the rebound or transitional person. Sometimes, the second marriage was entered into for emotional or security reasons following a divorce. Many times during a second divorce a person will admit they remarried for the wrong reasons, or too quickly. It could be like riding a bike--once you know how to get a divorce you may never forget.

 

Some divorced people rush into a second marriage because they are not equipped to live life in solitude or they feel they are incomplete without a mate. My ex-husband remarried a week after our divorce was final stating that he could not live without a woman to share his life with. My mother remarried quickly because she was not able to accept her role as a single woman alone after 25 years of marriage.

 

When there are children involved a second marriage is far more stressful then the first. Parents have to balance what is right for their children while building a relationship with their new spouse. Loyalties and interferences from the ex spouse can add dynamics a first marriage never encounters. Child support obligations can affect a second marriage financially and add another dynamic for dispute.

 

The best advice I had following my failed 14-year marriage was to give myself time before dating again. During my divorce, I found a counselor to help me sort my feelings out and make better choices for my future. I was advised to wait at least two months for each year of my divorced relationship, to allow myself to heal and think clearly. By the time my waiting period passed, I found I was over the majority of the pain and guilt I felt for having a failed marriage. Of course, I had a series of dates with men who could be classified as the rebound relationship but I was more emotionally able to recognize when a relationship was flawed.

 

The second marriage does not have to be another divorce for someone who is able to take time and find happiness as a single person. Focusing on making your own life stable and finding out what your personal priorities are can be the key to being a whole person when you do re-enter the dating scene. Understanding who you are and what it was that caused a first marriage to fail will make you a better spouse the second time around and will also allow you to choose better in the future.

[Guest]

Island girl

 

There were red flags but they were small ones or ones that I considered to be small at the time. She was close to her family and honestly there was less pressure prior to getting married from them to spend time together. Her mother quit her job to help plan the wedding I felt this was a bit much but she did only work part time. Her mother and her spoke 4 to 5 times a day I felt that it was a bit over board but I really don't mind whom she speaks to and how many times a day. It didn't really effect me. Her mother and father never came over before when we got into a fight prior to getting married. There was always pressure to spend time with them and it was more then I wanted but they were never as involved as when we got married. It felt to me that when we got married they wanted mw to become a part of there family. It seemed that they didn't want my wife and I to be our own family that was an extension of theirs.

 

You are correct I did speak to my sister about our relationship. Yes, I should not have done this but she asked me if everything was alright between my wife and myself. I shouldn't have spoken to her but I did. Hindsight being 20/20 I won't repeat this mistake. My sister was mean to her and didn't mention to my wife that she knew anything. But to be honest my wife really started to pull back from my family prior to this. I am not saying she was projecting her uncomfortable feelings onto my family, but it really seemed like it.

 

you are also correct when you said I should have been open, honest and upfront about my feelings. I should have told my wife that i wanted to go away with her. I should not have acted like a child and ignored her. I realize now that if I had communicated this to her maybe we wouldn't have gotten to this point.

 

There are many things that I would do differently. I can not go back in time and change any of my wrong doings nor can I change hers. All I can do now is be honest and upfront but again this is hard to do when she is angry and upset.

 

I appreciate your post and i look forward to your comments.

[Guest]

Gunny,

 

We got an offer on the house. My wife called me on sunday and asked me what I thought about the offer. I told her i thought it was low but i would leave it up to her. The wife counter offered a bit high but the people accepted. The house is sold as long as the appraisal comes in at what they offered. Regardless, the house is sold. I told her two weeks prior to this that if we were going to work on things that i would prefer not to sell the house. I would think this is a sign that she wants to move on but a couple of my friends say that until she tells me to sign the divorce papers or until she files I really don't know.

 

I have asked her to work on things and i have asked her to meet and her reply is I'm not ready. I am not calling her at all and I did tell her i would leave it up to her. I have told her how I feel. I guess i just sit back and wait? I was thinking since our first anniversary is coming up 10-29-06 do call about one week prior and ask "Are we going to work on this I can't do it alone" From this point I will not call her until then or do you think that i not call at all. I know that if i send a card or something on the anniversary date or call I will be wrong and if I ignore it i will be wrong. Should I call now. I am just lost. I am keeping active I am reading some of the books you recomended. I am working on myself but confused about her.

[Gunny376]

In so far as selling the house ~ its just a house. Statistically, you would move at least five more times. Besides, unless I mis-understood you you're house rich, and living payday to payday to pay for the place anyway ~ so my interpetation would be that's the reason she's wanting to sell ~ not necesarly because its "over" and she intends to file for divorce. So your friends are right when they say its not over until she files.

 

Right now I think what she doing is trying to reconcile her "emotioal" mind with her "rational" mind. Women are much more intuned with their feelings than men, and sometimes they make decisions because it "feels" right, but then they have to reconcile it with the rational minds. And, sometimes its vice versa.

 

I wouldn't call on the Anniversary and discuss "Are we still married?" It comes off as too much of an ultilmatim. I would send a card and some flowers, you are after still married, and it is your anniversary ~ just keep it simple, yet with a personal touch to show that you've given it some thought and not just any card ~ take your time picking it out and finding the right one, not too long, not to short. Give some thought to the flower arrangement, something besides the standard issued dozen roses, and have the delivered to her work rather than home. You want to go for the shock and awe ~ but with sublety. To do otherwise ~ you would definately be screwed. I would put something along the line that you're still her husband, and she's still your wife. That you still love her, and that you know that for your marriage to work the two of you would have to create something "new"

 

You do understand that you have control over this as well. Its there whenever you decide to grasp it in your hands. And the best predictor of furture behavior is past behavior with you and any other BF's that came before you.

 

Keep working on yourself and increasing our knowledge and skill set.

 

Good luck

[Gunny376]

In so far as selling the house ~ its just a house. Statistically, you would move at least five more times. Besides, unless I mis-understood you you're house rich, and living payday to payday to pay for the place anyway ~ so my interpetation would be that's the reason she's wanting to sell ~ not necesarly because its "over" and she intends to file for divorce. So your friends are right when they say its not over until she files.

 

Right now I think what she doing is trying to reconcile her "emotioal" mind with her "rational" mind. Women are much more intuned with their feelings than men, and sometimes they make decisions because it "feels" right, but then they have to reconcile it with the rational minds. And, sometimes its vice versa.

 

I wouldn't call on the Anniversary and discuss "Are we still married?" It comes off as too much of an ultilmatim. I would send a card and some flowers, you are after still married, and it is your anniversary ~ just keep it simple, yet with a personal touch to show that you've given it some thought and not just any card ~ take your time picking it out and finding the right one, not too long, not to short. Give some thought to the flower arrangement, something besides the standard issued dozen roses, and have the delivered to her work rather than home. You want to go for the shock and awe ~ but with sublety. To do otherwise ~ you would definately be screwed. I would put something along the line that you're still her husband, and she's still your wife. That you still love her, and that you know that for your marriage to work the two of you would have to create something "new"

 

You do understand that you have control over this as well. Its there whenever you decide to grasp it in your hands. And the best predictor of furture behavior is past behavior with you and any other BF's that came before you.

 

Keep working on yourself and increasing our knowledge and skill set.

 

Good luck

[Island Girl]

Right now I think what she doing is trying to reconcile her "emotional" mind with her "rational" mind. Women are much more intuned with their feelings than men, and sometimes they make decisions because it "feels" right, but then they have to reconcile it with the rational minds. And, sometimes its vice versa.

 

It is true. So true. Emotions are what we know best and sometimes the rational mind never plays apart - even long after...

 

I think the books or whatever you are doing is helping. Your posts are a bit more clear and have a better tone.

 

I don't know where her mind is. Maybe if I had some more background I could try to provide a female perspective but right now I don't have anything to go on.

 

Gunny has the right idea for the anniversary. <applause>. If you do anything -- anything -- do exactly as he said and make sure the flowers are to her work. Keep the card tender not cheesy or cute.

 

Read those books as fast as you can. They seem to be helping even with your communication here. Help your mind - it will only benefit you either way.

 

So there were red flags but not big red banners as I'd once thought. Okay so that is more clear too. And you have learned once and for all - no family in your business.

 

I have to say - if you do end up reconciling you have a great chance of progressing past these problems. There may be new ones and you (by the read list) will have learned how to communicate and negotiate a little more effectively.

 

If you don't get back together, you have a greater chance of having a successful relationship.

[Guest]

Gunny

 

You had told me to read Divorce Busters. What if my wife read the same book and she is not calling me for the same reasons. I know in the book that they state that their are no guarntees with this method. But, i am just concerned that by not talking out of sight out of mind.

 

I have been through break ups in the past and the way that i have gotten over the other girls is by no contact.

 

I guess my question is, should I stay in contact? Should I call her once a week to check in. I know that this really goes against Divorce Busters but, it feels like it will work in reverse.

 

Maybe the no contact is working but only on me. lol

 

Thank you for your help and suport.