Did I make a mistake?

[Jedd45]

I have been married to the same women for sixteen years. We have two children age 10 and 3. The relationship has had its ups and downs. About six months ago she questioned the viability of the marriage but we seemed to have worked through that. We have managed to work through everything until one week ago.

 

Last weekend we had friends over for dinner and at the end of the evening there was one male friend left. He is currently going through a divorce. We have socialized frequently with him over the years and I have never felt threatened before. I have even watched the kids while my wife and him went out for drinks.

 

The behavior of my wife and this fellow last weekend was threatening as the night wore on. I began feeling like a third wheel in my own house. Soon these two were giving back-rubs; lying on the floor and holding hands (I was invited on this one) and generally being very attentive. The scenario made me uncomfortable. At the time I chalked it up to the bottle of wine, excused myself to bed and went upstairs. While lying in bed I heard repeated moans, whispering and giggling. I went back down stairs twice to let them know I was still around but that did not stop the noises or non-sexual intimacy.

 

At that point I left the house and took a walk around the block to clear my head, avoid the (in my view) callousness, and collect my thoughts. I was gone for maybe twenty or thirty minutes. When I came back they were still giving each other back rubs. They eventually went out on the porch with my wife driving him home shortly.

 

The next morning I confronted her about my feelings and her apparent disregard or disrespect for them. She conceded that she was insensitive and apologized and declared that she had a "special connection" with our friend. He called that morning with a vague apology.

 

I have not been able to let it go. I am not normally the jealous type but I feel a line was crossed. An apology was a good start but I felt I had to be more pro-active and ask for other actions such as transparency in their relationship. etc. Well in a nutshell , my wife became defensive and angry because of the implications my questions pose; i.e. Is there anything else you want to share with me? She also has other non-sexual intimate relationships with other men. She does not hide the relationships but I feel she shares private our issues with them.

 

She is now "processing" her feelings and thoughts and I am sleeping in my office. She will not talk to me about her feelings or thoughts and is very cool. This is the worst spot our marriage has been in and I am very concerned!

 

I am giving her space but at some time in the near future I need to move back in or get an apartment. I would like to preserve the marriage but I do not want to grovel. What do I do? Did I overreact? I have tried asking her on a date but she is not receptive. Help please.....

[LakesideDream]

Is this a hoax? You allowed this to happen in your own house? You are pulling all our collective legs aren't you?

 

If not, you have forever redefined the term "giving space". As for not wanting to "grovel" exactly what have you been doing.

 

I'd suggest that your wife and the OM have made a very "special connection" in addition to the normal male/female genitile one. Time to slink away quietly so as not to disturb the lovers in their time of bliss.

 

Or, you can grow a pair. Either way my guess is you are toast.

[Jedd45]

Not a hoax. I do not believe there was any sex with the OM but I am hurt and feeling disrespected. This has not happened before and I am unwilling to write off the marriage at this point. Constructive crticism and advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Ladyjane14]

Do you and your wife have an 'open marriage' or something? It just seems so weird that she would think that it's okay with you for her to have a "special connection" with an opposite sex friend, particularly one that allows for inappropriate touching. (I say inappropriate, because if it made you uncomfortable.... than it's not conducive to the stability of YOUR marriage and family.)

 

Anyway, move back into your house, pronto. That's where you need to be. You can't really address any problems from where you are, and IF it becomes necessary to divorce your wife, you'll probably lose less in the settlement if you haven't established a pattern of financial support with her keeping the family home. I'm not a lawyer, but IMHO you need to speak with one... AND SOON.

 

Meantime, you should read some books on marital recovery and see if you can figure out what's going missing within the primary relationship. Your wife seems to be using the male "friends" to fulfill her need for companionship, and she's doing it at YOUR expense. YOU end up starved of the closeness that she's sharing with others, thus the relationship continues to deteriorate. Consider MC (marriage counseling) as well.

 

 

p.s. I'm not convinced that your wife isn't having a full-blown affair, btw. You'd do well to look for evidence and rule out infidelity. You can't fight what you don't know. Take a look at your bank and credit card statements, the detail records on her cell phone, and particularly... email and IM accounts on the PC.

[Gunny376]

Is "Oh! Hell NO!"

 

By the time me and Mr. Oak Ax-Handle got done with him ~ he'd be needing more than a backrub, he'd be needing a chiropractor!

 

I would have been walking tall on his azz!

[Jedd45]

Thanks Gunny that made me laugh. As a fomer Marine myself a blanket party has come to mind. By-the-way, your suggestions in other threads were very helpful Thanks.

 

LadyJane my wife and I do not have an open marriage. Before last weekend, we just had lots of trust; or at least I thought we did. There is no point in moving back quickly. You're going to love this - she leaves for Vegas next week for a long planned girls weekend. Hmmmm! And tonight she is attanding a faculty party.

 

You hit the nail on the head with your comments on companionship. I think what really bothered me was and is the fact that I am "starved" for that intimacy. MC may be the way to go if she commits. Right now she doesn't want to talk about the marital issues. I do not know that I can force the issue. Looks like I have some work ahead of me. Can you recommend and books?

 

Also, no worries on the asset distribution. We have two pieces of real estate with similar amounts of equity. She makes as much as I do so support would not be an issue. Also, not that it matters much, I am a lawyer acutely aware of thos issues. Just hope it doesn't come to that. Thanks for your responses.

[Ladyjane14]

Can you recommend and books?

 

You might start with books that will help you to identify ENs (emotional needs) for both you and your wife. Books like The Five Love Languages and His Needs/Her Needs will get you started. You can also check out marriagebuilders.com. Have a read through the Basic Concepts Section and print off the Emotional Needs questionairre.

 

I have to wonder why you didn't insist that the "friend" leave once you became uncomfortable.

And I'm wondering also why you tolerated your wife to drive him home, even though they had made you clearly uncomfortable with their inappropriate behavior earlier in the evening.

 

I'm hoping Gunny will pop in with some other references for you, because I'm thinking you might need to reassert yourself a bit within the marriage. You don't have to be a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal about it. But it's not good to allow people to put you into a position where you're building resentment either.

 

When you're dealing with someone you love... it's a bit of a tightrope walk to make sure that you're being fair to both your partner AND yourself. But look at it this way.... in the long run, you're not really protecting the relationship or doing your wife any favors if you 'give away the store'. You could end up building so much resentment as to make the marriage unsalvagable.

 

I'm sorry to mention this again, but I think it's worthwhile to check out some information on infidelity as well. You can give the HT Survive Infidelity section at marriagebuilders a run-through. You also might want to check out Surviving An Affair. Even if it turns out that there's no infidelity in play, Dr. Harley's methods will help you to establish some needed personal boundaries. The same techniques that he uses to address affairs, can also work to solve marital problems that have become so damaging to the marriage as to threaten it's continued existance.

 

Me to you.... I can't recommend the boards over there at this time. It's one thing to be watchful. It's another to get caught up in other people's drama to the point where YOU might become paranoid.

Your best bet is to read for information on the guidelines of the program and to avoid other people's interpretations of it.

[Jedd45]

LadyJane looking back in retrospect, I should have asserted myself. At one pont I did ask my wife to come to bed to no avail. For whatever reason, my wife is hyper-vigilant of her autonomy. If I had asserted more forcefully I am sure there would have been a major fiasco. She would interpret more assertiveness as a "control" issue.

 

Nevertheless, perhaps I could be more assertive in general in the marriage as your comment implies. Something else to discuss with my wife is she ever decides to chat substantively.

 

I will start reading. Thanks. Any further suggestions and comments will e appreciated.

[Ladyjane14]

I think there's a HUGE difference between "controlling" another person, and making that other person aware of your personal boundaries.

 

IF my husband was hanging out with other women, drinking wine, giggling, and rubbing their backs.... he's crossed a BIG boundary with me.

 

Think of your boundaries in terms of what you NEED in order to stay in the relationship. There's a difference between 'wants' and 'needs' of course. It's nice to get what you want. But when you consistantly don't get what you need, eventually the relationship will not be able to be sustained.

 

That's why it's important to take responsibility in making absolutely 100% certain that you're conveying your most basic needs to your partner.

 

In those terms... it's not so much that you're "controlling" the other person. You're just making them aware of the fact that they're damaging the relationship with their behavior. Look at it this way, letting someone know that they're stepping on your toes... is part of your JOB if you're being a good partner.

 

Your wife wants to have fun with her friends and give backrubs. But you need a wife who's promoting trust rather than provoking jealousy. Sooooo... when it comes to a conflict between one partner's 'wants' and the others 'needs', it's not hard to do the math.

[alphamale]

get a good lawyer and then file for divorce. get rid of this *****. and then after you've done that you must lose the "nice guy" routine so that the next female who comes along won't walk all over you

[Gunny376]

NGS ~ "Nice Guy Syndrone" its easy to catch these days. Watch a couple of episodes of "Will & Grace" ~ throw in a couple of chick flicks. One too many episodes of "The View" or too much "Lifetime" tv. I even came down with a bout of it several years ago.

 

I'm the kind of guy, I come home and find the preacher alone with my wife ~ there had best be a dead something lying around that he's saying last rites over.

 

Un-condtionally, every man has to be willing to walk away from any woman that he's with. Even if he's married to them. She's got you psyched into thinking that this is perfectally normal? That's it prefectally alright. I can promise you, if she were my wife, she'd be in for a rude awaking. She could call it "controlling" all she wants ~ I'd call it quits. Life's to freaking short, and there are too many women runnig around out her looking for a good man that's not married, not hung up on his ex, not a drunk, not a dope-head, not a ___________________, and who has a J O B! Too many women that are looking for a good man. What one woman will abuse ~ another can certainly use.

 

Got news you can use there Slick! She's acting single, and if I were you? I'd dump her before she's got your drinking doubles. No self-respecting, sincerly married woman I know of would let another man touch her. Especially such as you described in your post. And, maybe CC's right I am a redneck, and worse for it a retired Marine Redneck, but if I had walked in on such a scene in my house, with my wife the only things that would be needed to complete the scene would have been a mop, a bucket, and a preacher. It would have been "ON"

 

I don't know if her thinking that this is prefectaly alright, and "normal" and it might be in California or wherever, and perhaps I'm not enlightened or some such ~ but this is BS Bro!

 

You're in dire need of a progam by Carlos Xuma called "Secrets of the Alpha Male" You'll have to Goggle it, because LS won't let me link you because its a pay-site. Carlos is a "dating guru" and his foundation is this e-book, and CD's.

 

Although, Carols is ultimately a dating guru, as I said "Secerts of the Alpha Male" gets into finding your center of what being a man and how to be a man is all about in the year 2006. How to go about it, without being a controlling, selfish, self-centered jerk. About acheiving "balance" between being in a relationship, being assertive, setting bounderies, getting your needs met, all without being a jerk, or ******* about it.

 

She's flat out dis-respecting you in your own home in your face! If she's thinks this is prefectally alright and normal ~ then you need to find you a "real" woman.

[Gunny376]

, I should have asserted myself. At one pont I did ask my wife to come to bed to no avail. For whatever reason, my wife is hyper-vigilant of her autonomy. If I had asserted more forcefully I am sure there would have been a major fiasco. She would interpret more assertiveness as a "control" issue.

 

Yea! And, so?

[Jedd45]

Well, I guess she was acting single. Said she's getting a divorce. I'll google the book Gunny. Thanks for your responses.

[Gunny376]

Sorry to hear it Jed, but you know what? You're better off. Here you've been through the mud, the blood, and the beer.

 

Having gone thorugh the MC, and college, and law school, a feather weight ~ you ain't!

 

Forget this woman! Forget this broad! There's plenty out there that would love to have what you've got to offer! What you've got to give.

 

"Ask not what you've got to offer , but what she's got to offer you!"

 

There's no shortage of women. Women know that! I to once thought there was a scaritity, but there isn't. I just lacked the skill-set, necesary to overcome women's insrecutiies, self-doubts, walls of objections to being hurt, used and abused. Once you've breached those walls and have proven that you're a decent guy ~ you're in like Flint! The only thing a decent woman are asking for ~ looking for is a decent guy, whose looking for more than a piece of azz or a one night stand. They're just like us ~ scared of being used and abused.

[Ladyjane14]

Said she's getting a divorce.

 

Is this a recent development?

 

Are you still sleeping in your office, or have you moved back into the family home?

[Jedd45]

LadyJane:

 

Last night. Went to pick up my daughter for a Daddy-daugter night and my wife asked me if we could talk the next night. I asked her the parameters of the conversation. In short, we had our conversation last night (upsstairs away from the kids). Her reasoning, if I'm reading the teal leaves right, is she lost that loving feeling.

 

 

What a mess. Just gave it up. 16 years and two kids. Guess it has been festering for awhile but I really wish she had communicated that. Doesn't want to talk about resolution, counseling, etc. Wow! She insists there is nobody else but I just don't know. Doesn't matter now. Suggestions?

[Ladyjane14]

Did you suggest that she be the one to leave, since apparently she is the one having a problem???

 

I think you'd do well to start with Surviving An Affair. Your wife reads like a woman who's got someone else on her mind. There's kind of a script that seems almost universal for the WS (wayward spouse). When she tells you she's "lost that loving feeling", or she "loves you but is not IN LOVE with you".... these are common phrases for the WS.

 

One of the first and best things you can do is to be calm and rational, but to also put a damper on the fantasy aspects of her agenda. IOW, you don't actively HELP your spouse leave you.

 

On the surface it sounds very hard-nosed... but in reality, you can't negotiate with a partner whose agenda is based on a fantasy. Most often, the fantasy consists of obtaining a divorce, moving on to the object of your affection, and keeping your spouse on as a "friend".

 

Well... that's not reality. In reality, if this woman divorces you and moves another man into the family dynamic, you're not going to be willing to assist her in that agenda. And if you do end up divorced, you're not going to be willing to provide an emotional safety net for her. You won't want to have her up your ass all the time while you're trying to move on or while you're establishing a new parenting relationship with your kids.

 

It's completely FAIR to put these things up on the table now. She needs a VERY clear picture of how things are REALLY going to be.

 

So, the attack is a two-pronged one. On the one side, you improve your ability to meet her ENs, solving whatever marital problems that YOU might have brought to the marriage table. In this way, she begins to reevaluate you as an attractive alternative to wreck and ruin.

 

On the other side.... you show her what "wreck and ruin" is going to look like. You maintain your boundaries, and you PROTECT your family dynamic. If she wants to go... all you can do is tell her not to let the door slam on her ass. You can't stop her. But she can't take your kids or your home without a fight. This is reality. You're not going to stand idly by and allow your family to be broken apart without a word.

 

Move back into your home, and back into YOUR bedroom... and do it TODAY.

[Gunny376]

Move back into your home and bedroom ~ yesterday!

 

And, Oh, BTW! There's another rooster in the hen house!

[Ladyjane14]

p.s. Don't worry about her getting mad that you've come back home. Most likely scenario... she's gonna go off like a ballistic missile. Just keep your cool and don't give her any excuses to call the cops. Go in your room and take a nap instead.

 

That's YOUR home, and you haven't been away long enough for her to say you're "separated". You certainly haven't established another residence. There's not a thing she can do about it unless you provoke a domestic disturbance.

[Ladyjane14]

And, Oh, BTW! There's another rooster in the hen house!

 

It really does sound that way, doesn't it?

 

Unfortunately, too many guys capitulate to their wives' demands when it comes to separation. They're most often convinced that if they give the "space" that's been demanded of them, they'll get another chance to work it out. They 'buy into' the idea that they'll be divorced out-of-hand if they don't cooperate. But they don't give enough credence to the idea that they've been manipulated into leaving as part of a larger agenda.

 

Hell... if I wanted a divorce, I'd say whatever it took to get my husband to leave. Once upon a time, I gave it a good old-fashioned try too.

I must've had an angel on my shoulder that day though, because we've recovered nicely.

 

Anyway, the first step is getting the husband out of the house. Then all you've got to do is keep him calm until he gets used to the idea.

[alon1976]

you are overreact to the problem.

let it be!

[Jedd45]

Well, I spent the day with my oldest child. When I dropped her off, the soon-to-be-ex had just returned with a pick-up full of barkdust and shrubs (She is trying to pretty the home for sale). I am taking care of the kids next weekend, Friday through Sunday. Ex is going to Vegas. You'll love this - she asked if I wanted to spend time with then on Thursday night because she had a business meeting (This is true).

 

With the help of the above advice, ex was told in no uncertain terms that her calendar was her concern. I called my oldest later and scheduled a dinner date with her and her sister on Wednesday as that was better for my calendar. I also did not particpate with unloading the barkdust and shrubs. Told her I did not want any hand in marketing away a symbol of our marriage.

 

Hope I was not overly harsh, but LadyJane and Gunny's advice were well taken. Thankyou for your comments and advice. Assertiveness is a good thing.

[Ladyjane14]

Hope I was not overly harsh.....

 

I don't think it was overly harsh. She's moving pretty quick though, so you need to move quick too.

 

Type into your browser... "what are plan a and plan b, marriagebuilders" and read the article you find there.

 

Like I said, it's a two-pronged attack, so you're fulfilling ENs as long as your wife's "needs" don't apply to ending the marriage. Clearly, prettying up the house for sale furthers her agenda of separation and eventual divorce. So, why would you help with that? Being available to watch the kids on Thursday is something you could have done if you were certain that it wasn't likewise forwarding the divorce agenda.

 

It doesn't sound like you've made plans to move back into your home. Why is that?

Unless you have a superlative reason... you're actually decreasing your chances of reconciliation by allowing the physical separation to exist. It allows a new status quo to be established.

 

You and your wife are having a nasty spat, that's true.

But people have reconciled from worse. Unless divorce is your preferred option.... 'plan A' the heck out of her. Just remember to introduce REALITY when it comes to separation.

[Gunny376]

You did good. Keep it up. As I said the key here regardless of the outcome is to be patient and balanced in your emotions. You absolutely must be in control of your emotions, most especially your negative ones and the number one of those that you cannot lose control of is your anger. Drive 50 miles and get out and scream if you have for thirty minutes straight if you have to, but in front of her and the children your Mr. Joe Cool on Campus Be an lawyer, you know what I'm referring to. Your to be the Zen Master of emotional control. Nothing that she can say nor do can push your buttons.

 

No doubt about it ~ she's got her own agenda ~ but that doesn't make it yours. You've zero control over nothing other than yourself, and your chilren. But, that doesn't mean she has any control over you nor your life either. That door swings both ways.

 

Good job on "maning Up" and being assertaive ~ but as I said you want to be assertative without being an azz about it.

 

I wouldn't be too wound up about her not telling you before hand ~ a lot of women do that. The man is walking down the merry little road thinking all is right with the world, and one morning the wife throws his azz under the next passing bus. Granted with hindsight being 20/20, and the help of some good 12 year old Scotch we can look back and see where we could have done this, should have done that, etc ad nausemn.

 

But, you know we go to school, we go into the military, we go college, and grad school, we learn about our jobs, go oto seminars ~ but not once along the way did we ever really get an "schooling" about how to be in a marriage or relationship ~ nor about personal finance. And, what two particualar areas go hand in hand with being the No#1 problem in peoples lives? You've got it relationship problems and personal finance problems.

 

I think some of the best advice I've given my children was to read at least one book a year on personal finance and relationships.

 

I don't re-call whether you even want this marriage? You didn't say. Along with MarriagBuilders, you might want to check out Dr. Helen Kreidman's "Light Her Fire" Her material has helped pulled a lot of people back from the brink of divorce. Again I can't link you because its a paid sight.

 

And you're right about the "home improvement" project. If you're going to hang me, I'll be damned if your going to use my horse and rope to do it ~ if I can help it.

 

And, again she's showing all the signs of having someone in the wings. She's moving really quick on this, as though her azz was on fire and her hair was "a catchin'"

 

What's the status of her "Back-Rub" buddy? Is he married ~ have a GF, Wife? I might give "Laughing Boy" a call, and let him know a thing or two about alienation of affection lawsuits. It would probally PO the DW, but what the "hey" she's filing for divorce, right? What she going to do, shave your head, make you join the Marine Corps and send you to Iraq? Divorce you? Damn the bad luck! She's already played her "trump" card.

 

Serously though, you need to move back into the house. The WW doesn't like it ~ tough! As with any adversary relationship ~ positioning is everything! You know that. I don't care if she's scrogging every guy in town.

 

And I kid you not, there's someone else. Me, myself and I, was raised an only child by eldery grandparents in the pine thickets of Alabama with no one to play with but two dogs. I'm very comfortable with being alone, and being by myself. You could put me in an empty room, and I'd be happy. Most people aren't like that ~ especially most women. Most women won't or can't leave a relationship without having one to go to.

[Ladyjane14]

Here's a link to Devildog's thread. It's not exactly the same as your situation, but I think to some degree it's similar... since male "friends" seem to be at issue.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t49359/