Do I Need To Issue an Ultimatum ????

[DSD1972]

I'm 34 and have been married for 6 years now (together for 7.5 years) We have 4 children 2 of which are from her previous marriage. Our marriage has been a roller coaster ride from the start. We had a huge blow up about a year ago and seperated preparing for divorce which was filed. After 2 months we decided we were running from problems that would follow us right into the next relationship so we decided to try to work it out. After 7 months of MC ($7000) we felt we had came along way in understanding how dysfunctional our lives had become and what we had to do to live life in a healthy marriage . I've become a true believer in personal responsibilty and that everything that happens to us is our responsibility. No one to blame anymore.

 

Our sex life was one major issue that never really got address in MC partly because I thought it would fall into place on it's own with everything else ironed out. Needless to say it hasn't and it's become a real problem for me. She loves the non-sexual touching but refuses to have sex more than once or twice a month on average and even then it appears to be more of a chore for her. She never intiates it and avoids it all the time by the standard excuses of having a headache, tired, stressed or just doesn't feel like it.

 

We are both physically fit so that's not a problem and life at home is better than it has ever been. I had her fill out a emotional needs survey 6 mnths ago in which she said sex once a month was fine with her. I did the same survey in which I said twice a week would be fine. She oftens says she will work on it but that only lasts a week and then back to the same old -same old. She claims to love me with all her heart but still refuses to take any proactive steps to help her libido. If she drinks then it becomes a different story but it doesn't make me feel any better if she only wants to have sex when she's half lit which is rare anyways.

 

I will say this may be a deal breaker for me if she takes no action to see what is causing her to not want sex. It provides a connection for me that I need. Being constantly rejected on this level brings my confidence down, makes me feel like a business partner or friend rather than her husband. I own my own company which has always provided a nice 6 figure income. She works as a realtor but only does a transaction every other month and is a stay at home mom most of the time. I take care of the kids when I'm home and have strived to meet all of her emotional needs. She seems to feel that since she doesn't believe our sex life is a problem for her then it's not a problem for anyone. She constantly wants to buy new things to make herself feel better and I'm starting to think the only way she will be interested in sex again is if she gets a new husband every 3 months to keep things new for her. She seems to also use things that I've done or not done as an excuse. Almost like she's is witholding sex as punishment. It's childish, I know, but just another excuse in my book.

 

Either way this is a large emotional need for me and it's my responsiblity to either live with it as it is, make a ultimatum for change, or prepare for divorce. I've seen some posts recommending the book "The Sex Starved Marriage" so I bought it yesterday hoping it may shed some light.

 

I really feel like this is the last piece of a very big puzzle and If I can't get this final piece then all this work may go down the drain. I'm tempted to write her a email but having a hard time wording it right with her mindset.

 

Any advice would help........ Thanks......

[superconductor]

You're being used, dude. You're her meal ticket, and she doesn't even have the decency to put out on a regular basis.

 

It's unfortunate that the sex issue didn't get examined in detail during MC (I'm surprised that the counsellor didn't bring it up, actually.) But for some reason that I can't fathom, some women seem to have a mental block when it comes to realizing that sex for a man in a commited relationship has less to do with the physical act than it does with acceptance, respect and love.

 

Ultimatums rarely work, at least in my experience (both giving them and being on the receiving end). If you try it, be prepared to re-file divorce papers.

 

Good luck.

[norajane]

But for some reason that I can't fathom, some women seem to have a mental block when it comes to realizing that sex for a man in a commited relationship has less to do with the physical act than it does with acceptance, respect and love.

 

The concept that sex is just sex for men is drummed into our heads from day 1 by men. So it's hard to understand - and believe - that there's some undefined magic moment where it becomes about acceptance, respect and love. It's not like the guys themselves tell us or even mention the possibility that it became about acceptance, respect and love at some point.

[nancyleeh]

If your wife is willing, go back to MC and talk about the sex issue. It does seem strange it didn't get discussed the first time you went but go now and talk about it before you make a final decision what to do. Best wishes.

 

nancyleeh

[superconductor]

norajane, please read my quote again

sex for a man in a commited relationship has less to do with the physical act than it does with acceptance, respect and love.

Make sense now?

[luvstarved]

Geez this sounds a lot like my situation only gender-reversed...

 

FWIW I did give my husband an ultimatum of sorts, which was that I knew that I could not live in a sexless marriage (twice a month or less is considered sexless, by the way) and that it would ultimately lead to divorce if it did not change. It has worked in a way in that we are having much more sex, but honestly, the quality is very low and it seems like such a chore for him that it is starting to seem not all that worth it.

 

Do you know whether your wife masturbates? I think it is important to know whether she has no sex drive or if it is that she doesn't want it with you...

 

In either case, I don't think I would put forth an ultimatum exactly but would sound the alarms and tell her that something absolutely must be done about it. My H and I are going to go to a seminar with Joe Beam in the near future. Check out his websites and see what you think. I don't know your religious affiliation but he is basically a Christian speaker who focuses on great marital sex. He wrote a book "Becoming One" which I have not read but heard good things about...I will be reading it very soon! I do not know whether my H really is aware of this guy's emphasis on sex (he does talk about other things, but sex is a big part of it). I did not want to highlight it too much because my husband, just like your wife, thinks there is no issue with our sex life and gets irritated when I try to talk about it, so not sure he would be as enthused if he fully realized it. I just gave him the seminar description and let him draw his own conclusions!

 

Anyway I totally sympathize with you and hope that your wife (and my H) will eventually catch on and do something about it...I know the struggle all too well...best of luck.

[Gunny376]

Totally disagree with most of the responses.

 

You need some down time from the business!

 

You need to feel appreciated!

 

You need to feel wanted!

 

You need to feel validated!

 

She needs some down time!

 

She needs some down time from the children!

 

She needs to feel wanted!

 

She need to be validated!

 

Both of you need some time away from work, from stress, from the children, from the day to day! Forget about sex, just get away, and do so about every four months! Just walk on the beach and hold hands! And Hug! And Smile! And Laugh!

[RecordProducer]

It's very important whether her libido is low or she doesn't want YOU sexually. If she has sexual desires, but not with you then she doesn't love you as a man. If however she simply doesn't have a sexual need at all, then it's not her fault.

 

You don't have to defend your sexual desire as an "emotional" need. We all need sex because nature made us like that, just as we need love or affection or laughter or food or air. Wanting sex at least once or twice a week is definitely reasonable. I really, really totally don't understand why the reeasons for wanting sex are being discussed over and over again as if this is the first time we've ever heard of sex so let's see what it is and why would we want it. NOT desiring sex with your spouse is strange, not desiring it!

 

I think you haven't really tried to resolve this issue, since agreeing to have more sex is not what solves the probem. You need to find the cause of it in order to find a solution. In any case, your goal is to solve this problem, not to discuss until you get blue in the face and leave it at that. This is not something that you can compromise on as in reconcile with the fact that you won't have physical intimacy or accept sex that she gives you reluctantly.

 

You've had many problems for years plus a sexless marriage. I am not sure that giving up on this marriage and starting from a scratch with someone else would be such a bad idea. I have a feeling that this won't be resolved in your favor, at least not permanently.

[kulyok]

She has four children, this is important. It can be that she doesn't want sex because it associates it with her having kids - which is definitely not so pleasant.

 

Did you have a vasectomy or is it possible she'd become pregnant again? I think a sterilization would improve matters greatly, although she of course knows better.

 

Talk to her honestly - when you have sex, what does she feel like? What is she afraid of? Does she like cuddling after, does she get it? Does she like foreplay, does she get it?

 

Another important matter: I, for example, am fine with having sex every day, but having sex after 10pm for me is a no-no: I am sleepy. So, yeah, if my hypothetical husband approaches me only before bed, our marriage would become sex-starved in no time. Are you approaching your wife for sex only by the end of the day, or during the day, as well?

 

Also, when did you and her last have a vacation away from kids?

 

Do not answer me. Answer her.

[RecordProducer]

She has four children, this is important. It can be that she doesn't want sex because it associates it with her having kids - which is definitely not so pleasant.

:lmao: :lmao:

[kulyok]

Did you ever have four kids? An ectopic pregnancy? A pregnancy fear? Birth complications? Have you ever heard of a pregnancy fear treatment and sexual therapy?

 

If yes, I do not understand what you are laughing about. If no, I wonder why you laugh about what you don't understand.

[Mz. Pixie]

Did the emotional needs survey you had her fill out come from marriage builders?

 

If so there is alot on that site about negotiation in marriage. This is where you iron out issues like that. Have you been there and looked through their site??

 

Perhaps a peek at His Needs/Her Needs- how to affair proof your marriage might open up her eyes?? There is a great chapter in there about how sex is usually a mans most important emotional need.

 

Marriage Builders also states that in a sexual relationship the sex should lean to the person "with the greatest need" While that doesn't mean she should have sex every time you want to, it does mean that she needs to try to compromise with you on a number that's acceptable. For instance, I prefer sex 4-5 times a week. Because my husband's schedule is very busy he prefers twice a week usually. Well, because I want more he said, "Well how about at least 3 times per week?" as a compromise.

[catgirl1927]

The concept that sex is just sex for men is drummed into our heads from day 1 by men. So it's hard to understand - and believe - that there's some undefined magic moment where it becomes about acceptance, respect and love. It's not like the guys themselves tell us or even mention the possibility that it became about acceptance, respect and love at some point.

 

I also find it hard to believe.

[a4a]

I also find it hard to believe.

 

It is hard to believe that feelings are attached to a mans desire for sex as they run about strip clubs, watch porn, and chase skirts.

 

So which is it..... feelings (respect, acceptance, love) or animal need to ejaculate?

 

I have to agree in general the message men send out to women by their actions and words contradicts itself often.

 

**** disclaimer

not all men do this, some men indeed want an emotional connection and not just a sexual outlet, some will even abstain from sex without the emotional connection there.

[superconductor]

So which is it..... feelings (respect, acceptance, love) or animal need to ejaculate?

It's both.

 

When a man is involved in a commited relationship, sex is about acceptance and respect. When sex is denied, so too is the man's sense of acceptance by his partner.

 

Why is this so hard to understand?

[a4a]

It's both.

 

When a man is involved in a commited relationship, sex is about acceptance and respect. When sex is denied, so too is the man's sense of acceptance by his partner.

 

Why is this so hard to understand?

 

So a man could have sex or a lap dance with a woman with zero feeling involved but also feel hurt if his SO says no to sex but she is supposed to keep in her mind that he wants sex with her for the love portion as well.

 

But he can have a sexual encounter with another woman without feelings about her...... thus the old cliche "she meant nothing to me, it was only sex" Which make most women think..... sure I am just sex to you then too huh buddy.

 

Well sorry ya cannot have it both ways :lmao:

 

Make up your minds men...... one or the other... or just keep it in your pants until you can find a woman willing to make you feel loved sexually.

 

disclaimer* I have had just sex without emotion wrapped up in it.

[Mirage222]

D's QUOTE: It provides a connection for me that I need. Being constantly rejected on this level brings my confidence down, makes me feel like a business partner or friend rather than her husband

_________________________________

 

I feel not that my confidence is down because I love me in whatever "sticky" I get me in.. but I, like you feel like a friend/business partner when I only get it 2X per week..

HE seems to not think about it, not being normal to, not want it.. follow me?

 

I don't understand why this happens to relationships and I think it is SO sad that this is the case in so many married/unmarried situations!!

 

My sister left her husband after 6 months because of this same stuff! He was more the friend then the husband...

 

I would forget about MC - it never seems to work in any of these issues. Would you really feel comfortable talking to a marriage counselor on why your not getting any? I certainly would not. Your relationship minus the kids is a replica of mine.... I do get some but never enough :0

[catgirl1927]

Exactly, a4a. Convenient definitions. No matter what they do, it isn't wrong and we're crazy for objecting. No, worse. We're "insecure."

[blind_otter]

I'm interested in this. Two separate friends of mine, one female, one male, have both recently hit the 3 year mark with their r/ships and have come to me for advice about the lack of sexual intimacy.

 

On the one hand, I know that men access intimacy through sex. It's a pretty well known fact.

 

But OTOH, women access intimacy through non-sexual activities, for the most part.

 

It seems like, a conundrum -- I mean how can you expect a woman to grit her teeth and force herself to have intercourse? And then the less the woman initiates sex, the less likely she is to receive the non sexual intimacy that she needs in order to WANT to have sex.

 

That's a big problem. I guess I should do some research.

[superconductor]

Well sorry ya cannot have it both ways :lmao:

Well, reality isn't nearly as black-and-white as it's often made out to be.

how can you expect a woman to grit her teeth and force herself to have intercourse? And then the less the woman initiates sex, the less likely she is to receive the non sexual intimacy that she needs in order to WANT to have sex.

Exactly. It's the standard chicken-and-egg scenario. The more often my partner denies me sex, the less I'm interested in fulfilling her "emotional needs," especially when the whole "emotional needs" thing is left undefined.

 

I'm not in a relationship right now - my choice - so this doesn't really affect me anyway, but I've seen this happen over and over again, bot in my previous relationships and those of people that I know.

[DSD1972]

If you could put the sexual feelings of a men in a closed room and then label the door with a sign many women never want to open the door because they see a sign that just reads "SEX" with a big panting dog below it. Whats behind that door is different from one man to another. I agree that many man convey a view of sex that certainly doesn't turn on wives and mothers. Men often fail to grow up in this area and it unfairly labels those of us that do.

 

I can only speak for myself here and I don't visit strip clubs nor do I sit in front of a computer looking for porn. My true desire for sex from my wife is about the connection I feel to her. An expression of our love and commitment. When I'm constantly rejected I feel unwanted and unloved. I do believe my wife looks at it in many of the ways expressed on this board as only a man's physical release and no more. This belief was instilled in her long before I entered the picture and finding a way to change her perception of sex is the true battle here.

 

On the same token many men could probably use some conseling on how not to always look at women as only a sexual object. I don't know the exact answer to my situation but I feel my wife's complete avoidance of this issue is very hard to take. If she feels sex is dirty or cheap then she certainly needs seek professional help to address those feelings. I know that in late high school and early college she drank plenty and had lots of one night stands that may have utimatley created this mindset.

 

We all have to take responsibility for our past actions especially if those actions are affecting present life. I have no problem leaving the past in the past and I would never use it against her but if that is part of the present problem then she must address it herself. I would support her no matter what but I need to see some sort motivation to help fix this. I firmly believe that attacking a problem without all the facts will never lead to a solution and only cause more problems. That is why I posted on this board and it has already helped.

 

Why this wasn't addressed in MC is beyond me. To be honest the MC focused on us individually for the first 5 months and then more couple counseling for the remaining 2 months. At $120 an hour I might have jumped the gun on leaving MC sooner than I should have. I know the main reason I didn't bring it up was 2 folded. One knowing it would strike a big nerve with her and we were doing so well. The 2nd reason was I wanted to believe that with everything we accomplished in MC the sex life would magically return. In hindsight I obviously should have address it and now I'm paying the price.

 

Less stress in life would certainly help but 3 of our 4 our children are in school and I can't take a week vacation every 2 months to accomidate our sex lives. Many couples have more kids than us, work full time and still make an effort to find the time for each other. We both have to have a vested interest in making itimacy a major part of our marriage. Without it I think it's just a matter of time before the marriage loses it's foundation forever.

[alphamale]

Ultimatums almost always backfire.

[blind_otter]

Why this wasn't addressed in MC is beyond me. To be honest the MC focused on us individually for the first 5 months and then more couple counseling for the remaining 2 months. At $120 an hour I might have jumped the gun on leaving MC sooner than I should have. I know the main reason I didn't bring it up was 2 folded. One knowing it would strike a big nerve with her and we were doing so well. The 2nd reason was I wanted to believe that with everything we accomplished in MC the sex life would magically return. In hindsight I obviously should have address it and now I'm paying the price.

 

I'm not to sure what you mean here. I mean, the counselor will only address topics that you bring to the table. They aren't really supposed to just throw stuff out there without you asking for help with it. IME, anyways.

 

If this is a big issue, then yes -- you need to bring it up and maybe you do need another go round with MC in order to attend to it if you don't know how to bring up the topic without eliciting a defensive response from your W.

 

I did some reading and from what I've read there can be a huge problem with how people cognitively frame the whole concept of sex and sexuality. Many people use it as a form of emotional commerce. While it does serve a purpose in that respect, you run the risk of encountering intimacy problems like the one you described in your OP, when emotional intimacy between partners is put on the back burner.

[Hard2Think]

I think one of the reasons I didn't want to go to MC to address this issue specifically is that unlike asking for behavioral changes - sex really has to come from the heart and be the product of desire rather than be an obligation.

 

The thought of having an MC try to convince my wife to have sex with me was so distasteful, that I would rather accept that she doesn't want it. It's like me bringing flowers to my wife or something because the MC tells me to. It would ruin the effect completely.

 

If I knew that my wife was having sex with me because she felt she had to, then the whole experience would be extremely unsatisfactory.

[blind_otter]

I think one of the reasons I didn't want to go to MC to address this issue specifically is that unlike asking for behavioral changes - sex really has to come from the heart and be the product of desire rather than be an obligation.

 

Well this is what I'm talking about exactly. Sex is a behavior, like any other. To think of it as anything other than that is a mistake. Even the desire for sex can be cognitively re-framed. I'm a prime example of this working relatively successfully, because I have 2 rapes in my past. I did the work to re-frame sex, and I have a very satisfying sex life -- there are no positions I feel uncomfortable in, any more.

 

Sex is a behavior, like any other. It's a shame that this concept is lost on so many people. It's not mystical, magical, or spiritual -- unless you make it so.