Marriage builders etc

[luvstarved]

I am just wondering about people who have read books and/or attended marriage seminars...and how such things have affected their marriage...

 

My H and I are going through a period of attempted rebirth of our marriage and are reading Love Busters and His Needs Her Needs (with the intention of doing the exercises/inventories afterward) and also signed up to go to a Joe Beam seminar.

 

I do believe that we want the same things and all, but we have been together a long time (10 years) and have a lot to overcome. It seems that we have been in the habit of misinterpreting each other and communicating very poorly and being selfish too I suppose. Right now we still seem to be operating under these habits, but with the bonus of discussing and straightening things out later, where they would just fester before...but the goal is to rid ourselves of these bad habits and I am trying to feel hopeful that these external resources will really help, rather than just give us valuable information for what not to do in the next relationship. Guess I am wondering whether there is ever a "too late" and also whether these resources truly make a difference or just maybe open our eyes a little to what is going on but without being able to help effect sufficient change.

 

I am very gung ho about all this and my husband seems to be too at some level but there is a part of me that feels that he is just effectively patting me on the head and hoping life will just get simple soon.

 

So, any stories, success or fail, on how external resources have affected your marriage?

 

Thanks

[wantedbetter]

I was pretty active on their website/forum in the 2000- 2001 time frame. My wife and I never went to any seminars however.

 

I read the book, "his Needs/Her Needs" . . . .my wife has read a few pages.

 

I belive Marriage Builders can be a WONDERFUL program for two emotionally mature people.

 

It has a fatal flaw in it if one of the partners is emotionally immature. See, Plan A has the partner who desires change in the marriage, even if THEY feel resentful and hurt over their partner's behavior, to basically go "full-tilt" with loving behaviors toward their spouse to re-fill their "love banks" You do this no matter how empty YOUR love bank is. Basically you meet their needs like crazy.

 

Do you see the fatal flaw yet? Well, if your partner is emotionally immature they'll generally interpret your actions as "Hey, this is pretty good! Something's gotten into him/her and they're now doing everything to meet my needs . . . .make me happy. I LOVE this! I'm going to sit back and enjoy!!"

 

As much as the Marriage Builder folks on the forum never really wanted to admit about plan A, there's no denying . . . . you changed your behavior toward your spouse BECAUSE you wanted to see them change their behavior toward YOU.

 

They would write, "Oh you have to Plan A with NO expectation that your spouse will change!"

 

Oh really? Then why is there a Plan B? Heck, why be married in the first place? I have people I DO absolutely EVERYTHING for with no expectations that they return the behavior . . . .they're called my CHILDREN!!!

 

That's my situation. My wife filled out the emotional needs questionnaire and I began meeting the needs she had as SHE named them. Did that for well over a year. I never saw any reciprocal action on her part.

 

To add fuel to the fire, my need was physical affection, sex . . . .basically needing increased frequency.

 

This was the only need out of the ten that Harley writes about that EVERYONE on the forum would blame YOU (the person with the need) for either 1) being too needy ("maybe you have too much libido!") or more likely 2) being soley responsible for behaviors that shut your wife's sex drive down.

 

After a while with response like that, it just got tiresome being on the forum . . . . .so I stopped.

 

Love Shack is much better.

 

WB

[a4a]

This was the only need out of the ten that Harley writes about that EVERYONE on the forum would blame YOU (the person with the need) for either 1) being too needy ("maybe you have too much libido!") or more likely 2) being soley responsible for behaviors that shut your wife's sex drive down.

 

 

WB

 

 

If this ain't the truth....

[Hard2Think]

Most forums will get you that response - especially if you're the male who has this need. It's amazing.

 

This was the only need out of the ten that Harley writes about that EVERYONE on the forum would blame YOU (the person with the need) for either 1) being too needy ("maybe you have too much libido!") or more likely 2) being soley responsible for behaviors that shut your wife's sex drive down.

 

After a while with response like that, it just got tiresome being on the forum . . . . .so I stopped.

[Touche]

My husband and I are married eleven years and went through a little rough patch at the seven year mark (7 year itch?).

 

We bought (don't laugh) one of Dr. Phil's books. I can't remember the name of it now but it had exercises and such. We did that for a few weeks and it really helped us. We too, had fallen into some bad habits, as far as how we related to one another. But as we all know, bad habits CAN be broken..and we did.

 

Good luck and I hope your husband is as committed as you seem to be.

[Mz. Pixie]

Relationship Rescue is the original one that he wrote, I believe.

[luvstarved]

Gak! Yeah that is exactly what I was thinking about, isn't this great for people who are rational and mature and just need a little kick in the heart?

 

We are doing so far so good on this, communicating better, etc, though admittedly have far to go. When we did counseling before, I remember that my H was very much into it until we started talking about my issues with him and then his attitude kind of changed, and eventually he refused to go because suddenly our helpful insightful counselor was full of s**t!

 

Seems like a great number if not the majority of people having problems on this board are dealing with someone who is uncooperative, selfish, etc.

 

Right now my H is pretty gung ho but then again what he is reading into most of it is about his issues with me. Even though I am the one who brings in most of the money, do ALL of the shopping (groceries, birthday, back to school, Christmas, the whole bit), take care of ALL of the housework(except maintaining the pool and mowing lawn), and handle ALL of our finances, doctor's appointments, etc, and all within an up until recently sexless marriage, he has been pointing out to me about my "Taker" and at the moment seems to be blissfully unaware of his. Meanwhile, my "Taker" is looking around for all these so called spoils...yeah I have been crabby and suspicious that he didn't really love me and I am trying to change that, but...I'm worried that he won't be willing to hold up the mirror for himself when the time comes.

 

My husband is truly a well intentioned and good hearted man, but he was brought up to be selfish and to not have to do anything he didn't want to do by a mother who is so selfless and agreeable and cheerfully doormatish that he just doesn't seem to get that everyone should not treat him the way she does. As a matter of fact, she shouldn't either (yes she still does, but that's another story...)

[Touche]

Relationship Rescue is the original one that he wrote, I believe.

 

Yes, I'm pretty sure that was it, Mz. Pixie.

[luvstarved]

Most forums will get you that response - especially if you're the male who has this need. It's amazing.

 

That's another quirk in our situation - I am the one with that complaint! I have not gotten any response to suggest that I have too much libido, I admit! Most of them were about erectile dysfunction, addiction to porn and that sort of thing. Because a GUY can't just not want sex because of emotional detachment, right?

 

Well, I asked my H again last night about why he had seemed to be avoiding sex with me and emotional detachment was exactly what he said! He is seriously NOT a womanizer (although I have been concerned about his relationship with a coworker recently) and after the whole talk, I actually do believe him, but these things can also be bumpy when you don't follow gender lines as expected...as much as they try to avoid it.

[Touche]

Luv, judging from your last post, you're doing something that is brough up in Dr. Phil's book. My husband was guilty of this. You're what Dr. Phil calls a "Score Keeper." You're a little too focused on what YOU do and I imagine what your husband DOESN'T do.

 

It's never going to be equal. Focus on the good that you EACH bring to the table. Surely, he has different things (but just as valuable things ) to offer in the marriage.

 

Stop focusing on his negatives. Like Dr. Phil says, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

 

You need to start focusing on giving him what HE needs from you. The rest should come. Keep working at it. Stop reminding him about how much you do. It can be a real turn off and it's not at all productive.

[luvstarved]

My husband and I are married eleven years and went through a little rough patch at the seven year mark (7 year itch?).

 

We bought (don't laugh) one of Dr. Phil's books. I can't remember the name of it now but it had exercises and such. We did that for a few weeks and it really helped us. We too, had fallen into some bad habits, as far as how we related to one another. But as we all know, bad habits CAN be broken..and we did.

 

Good luck and I hope your husband is as committed as you seem to be.

 

Thank you! I think he is but has never had to take criticism and has always been told he was right, he is wonderful, let me do that for you, etc so much to overcome.

 

I wouldn't laugh at ANY suggestions. I want a happy and mutually satisfying marriage more than anything so maybe I will pick up Dr Phil's book too. Already planning to buy Becoming One...I have been married once before and engaged 4 other times and dated a lot in between so I definitely know what else is out there. This is my best shot and I am going to make the best of it that I can.

[luvstarved]

Luv, judging from your last post, you're doing something that is brough up in Dr. Phil's book. My husband was guilty of this. You're what Dr. Phil calls a "Score Keeper." You're a little too focused on what YOU do and I imagine what your husband DOESN'T do.

.

 

Well to be honest I have not said anything about these things to him in a very long time,although I used to. I just quit asking him to help. You're right that it probably came across as scorekeeping and yes internally I have a lot of frustration with it and ongoing issues. I did graduate from resenting having to do it all but then moved into resentment from being criticized for how it was done. Lately what I am more likely to say to him is "well if you want it done your way and on your schedule, then you will have to do it" rather than "do I have to do EVERYTHING?" in an angry tone.

 

But I think that it is a valid concern when one spouse is only too happy to point out the foible's of one while being in denial about their own. In your post, you told me what your husband was guilty of, not what you were guilty of. I have said that I was crabby and suspicious with my husband and that I am trying to change. I know that I have criticized him for not being willing to help at all around the house and I have also found myself belittling him at times for his seeming inability to take care of things. I have admitted all of that to him and apologized for it and am trying not to do it. Yes he brings things to our marriage that are important to me, but in the end I do not think things will work if the effort to resolve issues remains one-sided. It is important to think about the positives, but that does not mean that you are supposed to ignore the negatives. After all, those are the things that need repair. Not everything can be fixed, and at some point acceptance has to kick in, but we are way too early in trying to sort this out to have come to any conclusions about which can be fixed and which cannot.

 

We are happily talking right now about what I do wrong and how I have made him feel and what I can do better and I am open minded and listening and making changes. I'm NOT bringing this stuff up to him now because I agree it would not be productive, but I feel freer here to just vent sometimes. Do I want to be right or do I want to be happy? I want to be happy. Do I think I can be happy if I sublimate my own needs and focus only on his? No I don't. I am a very rational and fair minded person. I know that we all have our plusses and minuses and willing to work with that. But not able, even if I were willing, to have this whole effort to improve be yet another situation in which I do all the work and take all of the responsibility. We're not talking about slightly lopsided scales here. I don't WANT this resentment but I am surprised that anyone else would not feel the same way in the same circumstance.

 

The bottom line is that it seems to me that to make him "happy" what I would need to do is treat him just as his mother treats him and God help me, there is no way in hell I can ever do that.

 

The only thing that he has admitted he needs to work on his anger which is so pervasive in our lives that he would not dare deny it. He admits he needs to work on it, however he does also imply that it is justified because I am not "supportive enough". I am trying to figure out what the hell that means. I DO want to support him and I AM making changes, but I am very fearful that it means what I said it means above. Treat him like his mom treats him and never expect anything back in return. That isn't a conclusion, but a real fear. WHich is what I come here to express.

[Touche]

Ok, well first the reason I didn't bring up MY faults is because it wasn't revelevant. Of course I have/had my faults but I only mentioned the score keeper thing because I recognized that in you.

 

Anyway, it looks like you've started to make some good changes in how you communicate but you have a ways to go. The main thing that jumped out at me in your last post was the fact that you don't seem to have any idea what "being supportive enough" MEANS to him.

 

If you asked me what that would mean for my husband, I could give you very specific examples. Now, I admit that before our rough patch, I had no clue. Now I know. I really recommend that book.

 

You have to sit down and each write out SPECIFICALLY, what you need from each other. "Being supportive enough" is simply too vague. That could mean anything. And it can mean different things to different people. What do you think it means as far as your husband is concerned? Why not ask him to write it down in a very specific way?

 

I also don't think it's good to worry and anticipate about whether it means he's expecting you to cater to him like his mother did/does. You don't really know. Don't assume.

 

I agree if it's one-sided it won't work but it's too early now to tell if it's really one-sided and whether the negatives really can be fixed or not..just like you said. But I strongly believe if YOU start makings changes, even if he's not on board yet, you WILL see results in his behavior eventually. Sometimes we must take a few steps backwards before we go forward.

 

So go into this with a completely open mind with no preconceived notions as to the outcome. You'll have a much better chance at success that way.

 

You have to approach all of this in a very rational and calm way, which it sounds like you are trying to do. You both have to negotiate for what you want. Perhaps you can't treat him just like Mom does but you can maybe lean a LITTLE more towards that direction. And maybe he can't give you QUITE all of what you need from him but enough that it will make you happy? See what I'm saying? You have to meet more in the middle.

 

And of course, your resentment is natural but for now, you must let that go. You're trying to start out with a clean slate. You have to start dealing with each other in a completely different way.

[Touche]

Oh, let me pick out something else from your last post as an example of how to start dealing with things differently.

 

I'll use your example here:

 

"I did graduate from resenting having to do it all but then moved into resentment from being criticized for how it was done. Lately what I am more likely to say to him is "well if you want it done your way and on your schedule, then you will have to do it" rather than "do I have to do EVERYTHING?" in an angry tone."

 

Yes, the way your dealing with that criticism is BETTER but still not quite right. How about this instead:

 

I'm sorry that you don't like the way I did this. Do you want to take that job over? If he says yes, great...end of problem. If he says no and continues to criticize, say you're sorry again that he doesn't like the way you did it, and say I do the best I can. Period and end of story. The discussion at that point, should be over. No need to be resentful or be angry. Blow it off.

 

Eventually, there will be no "pay off" for this type of behavior and he'll more than likely stop. I mean if he's not willing to do the job himself and you're saying you're sorry he's not happy with it but you do the best you know how to do it, there's nowhere else for him to go with it. He'll drop it. The trick is for you to not let it get to you. Takes a little practice, but it's one of those "fake it until you make it" deals. Eventually, it WILL stop getting to you and he'll stop anyway.

 

Make sense?

[Ladyjane14]

I have to agree with WantedBetter on Marriagebuilders. It's a terrific program, but I think it hinges on the premise that you're dealing with two fairly average people. If one is a total TAKER, narcissistic without regard to the other person... there's literally nothing that can be done to "build" the marriage.

 

But I do believe that the MB program will eventually reveal fatal deficits like that one, as well as to help a partner who feels it's necessary to end the relationship move on by utilizing the Plan B stage.

 

Overall, I think it's probably the best program available.

 

That said... I can't recommend the forums AT ALL these days. While there are ALOT of really great folks posting opinion at MB, there's also a hard-nosed group of regulars who are quite forceful with their interpretation of Dr. Harley's work.

 

My advice to anyone using the program over there, would be to utilize the information as it was intended by Dr. Harley... and NOT get into a situation where someone else was translating it through their own colored lens of perseption.

[Ladyjane14]

While I was posting, I missed some interesting posts by both you and Touche, Luvstarved.

 

You know, I can't tell you how much better things have gotten for me by taking charge of my own resentments. These days, if I see something on the horizon that's bound to produce resentment on my part.... I head that sucker off at the pass.

 

I can't control what my husband does. If I notice that he's feeling resentful about something... I give him an opening for discussion, but I can't MAKE him bring his issues to me. I can sure as heck bring mine to him though, and I consider it to be my responsibililty at this point to do it.

 

Sometimes, I'll stew for a day or two.. just to make sure that my complaint is valid. But if it is, I screw up my nerve and go hash it out. I'm determined that I'm not going down without a fight. So... even though my natural inclination is conflict-avoidance and keeping the peace at all costs, I have to recognize that the man doesn't have a crystal ball.

 

You've got a TOUGH problem. If you focus on the sexual issues too much, you're going to end up with performance anxiety on his part, and the sexual problems will be magnified. On the other hand... you can't FIX something if you don't acknowledge that it's broken. It's a tightwire walk and that's for sure.

 

But I think the key for you is going to be in repairing some of the other issues that have allowed a certain amount of emotional withdrawal. An important part of that is going to be anger management for your husband. There's not much you can do to effectively manage his anger, but.... you CAN choose to not internalize it.

 

Here's a cool article that opened my eyes a little bit on why men tend to access their ANGER response before feeling their other emotions:

(Link to commercial site deleted)

 

Excerpt...

Why are many men so emotionally clueless? Blame the male brain. "Men are hard-wired differently," says David Powell, PhD, president of the International Center for Health Concerns, who explains that the connection between the left brain, home of logic, and the right, the seat of emotions, is much greater in women. "Women have the equivalent of an interstate highway, so they move readily between the right and left brains. For men the connection is like a meandering country lane, so we don't have such ready access to feelings."

 

This was a lightbulb moment for me because it just explained soooo much. What I've realized is that sometimes when my sweetie is angry... it's because he hasn't had the appropriate time to latch onto the REAL emotion that he's feeling. When I give him some time to sort it out, he's able to verbalize other feelings. Not to say that sometimes he's not just plain old garden-variety mad... but usually there's a better explanation. He's worried, or feeling incompetent, or feeling unimportant, or.... Well, you get the drift.

 

Once you've learned not to internalize an outburst... you can usually counter it. Worried? Lets talk about the actual problem 'cause two heads are better than one. Incompetent? Who said so?...'cause I'll kick their ass! Unimportant? Not my sweetie. 'cause I can cite a hundred reasons why he's BETTER than everybody else.

 

On the surface, it sounds like YOU end up doing all the work. But I think you'd be surprised at the level of reciprocation possible when your spouse feels emotionally supported. Next thing you know... he WANTS to make you happy in whatever way he can. Guys are like that. A good one feels like sh*t when his wife and family aren't content.

[luvstarved]

Yes I do quite agree that I have to work on my resentments! And I am trying! I think that I am so anxious to know the ultimate answer about things that I analyze things to death, sometimes in a favorable way, sometimes not. If you've read many of my posts, that will be pretty obvious! But I come on here as a tool for sorting all this out. It helps me a lot to get feedback from other people so that I can get back on track when my thinking goes into the weeds or so that I can get validation for some of my thinking when I am getting the message at home that my thinking is all twisted...I know it is not, but it is human and we all know how complicated that makes things...

 

But...in truth, my observations over 10 years with him and watching his interactions with his parents tell the story of an extremely spoiled boy who always got whatever he wanted, never had to do anything he didn't want to do, was always told he was right and was never called on being disrespectful. His anger occurs when people basically aren't complying with his wishes. Hissy fits, if you will, but very short-lived. My MIL treats my 8 yo daughter the same way and I have to fight to get my daughter to not make the same kind of angry whiny outbursts. She does with my MIL and gets away with it but ends up trying it with me too.

 

And I do have a clue about the "not supportive enough". I think the problem is that I will never be as supportive as she is. He seems to say this in almost the same scenario each time. He gets all worked up about things people say to him and wants to ponder and discuss them at ridiculous length. Sometimes after discussing things with him, I will come to the honest conclusion that a remark was innocuous and not meant to be insulting, OR I will get fed up with hearing about it ad nauseum and tell him that I have given it all the consideration and opinion I can and have nothing further to offer. I am talking about after HOURS of discussion over the course of a day or two. Meanwhile, mom will listen and discuss forever and agree with everything he says, the other person is a flaming a-hole, etc. Once he went on like this because the guy at the convenience store called him "buddy". WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT? Why did he call me "buddy"?

 

The first day I met his mother was at their house. He went into the bathroom and came out YELLING "that toilet is dirty. Go in there and clean it for God's sake". And she was like "oh I'm sorry..." and ran in there to clean it! The situation is extreme. My husband is a very well intentioned man and in rational conversations realizes that I will not and should not be expected to be like that for him, but at some level he is still a product of his upbringing. And it concerns me that we won't reach a happy medium. He thinks that his parents (esp his mother) are the greatest people on the planet and when I have said anything about my thoughts on this subject have been told that I am just jealous. Nopers!

 

Anyway my MIL is also well intentioned but so ubiquitous and intrusive in our lives that it's almost unbelievable. I have learned to accept a lot of it, and have bent over backwards to establish a good relationship with her and she cares about me too. I don't think anybody has meant to do the wrong thing here but has left my H with what I think is an unreasonable set of expectations...I don't blame him for it but it will be a struggle to work out.

The good news is that he acknowledges things like his anger, and I can see that he is working to improve.

 

Please don't flame me now for trying to put the blame on his parents and further deflect any blame from myself. I have admitted that I have lacked patience, belittled him at times for his dependence and ragged on his parents for being so intrusive, bitched about having to do everything and all of that. I know it doesn't help. And I also admit that I am perfectionistic about certain things and get mad because he is happy to do things in a minimalist or strictly functional way if he does them at all. And I am a product of my upbringing too God help me. If I had said that to my mother about cleaning the toilet she woulda told me to kiss her ass!! But also my mom is distrustful by nature and I have to fight being that way too...

 

As for the sex, I feel the news is happy. Still on a good frequency. The intimacy is still not there but we are talking about it in small doses. He says that it cannot be rushed and I accept that and even agree. Things do seem to be moving in the right direction and I do very much credit him for taking my needs to heart and getting to work on them right away!