Hard2Think - Part II : Trying to Reconcile with W

[Hard2Think]

This past week has been a slow downward slide down the rollercoaster that took a sharp dip on our date last Saturday. It seems to be the trend on our nights out. They start out OK, then she has a drink or two and it's Hell from then on .. Last Saturday was no different. We went to a nice place for dinner and she got a little nasty by the time dessert was coming.

 

Despite it all, she wanted to go a particular club for some drinks. This place happens to be well advertised high class singles hangout. I don't know why she picked this place - but she did. We went in, and the place was awesome. We sat at one of the many bars they had there and had a couple of 15 dollar drinks.

 

I looked around and saw the place was full of very beautiful women in their 20's and early 30's, outnumbering the men about 2 to 1. The men were also primarily youthful and some I guess would be considered good looking as well - although she thought that they all looked "creepy". I thought the whole scene was fascinating. I can't even remember the last time I was at a singles bar in the U.S.

 

For some reason, my wife was convinced that the chesty barmaid was trying to catch my eye and started making sarcastic comments about it. I didn't see that at all. She was just trying to be nice - probably because I was paying and maybe looked like a decent tipper (being that I was older than the average in this crowd). So I went through great lengths to avoid even accidentally looking at her - even when she'd stand in front of me for awhile. I just started at the football game in the far-off corner of the bar.

 

My wife, still annoyed, suggested we move to one of the other bars in the place. So she went ahead while I paid the tab. Paying the tab took about 5 minutes, with the credit card and they being busy. As I made my way to the other bar, I noticed saw my wife across the room trying very subtly to capture the attention of the men in the place. I paused and watched her for a minute.

 

My wife is a very attractive woman. She's always had my attention since the very beginning. But she's 43, almost 44, and we were in a place full of men and women in their 20's who were decked out for this place. I felt deeply saddened for having made her feel as though she needed this kind of validation. And in a weird way - I was even sadder that she wasn't getting any. She does get many looks from people out in the street - and she'd have no problem finding people to ask her out in normal circumstances. This just wasn't the place.

 

When I got to her, she immediately wanted to go back home. In the car - she started calling me names and assured me that in no way shape or form was the marriage ever going to be the same again. She told me she was staying with me because of the kids and that's that. She mentioned how she thinks that I got off with no concequences to my actions and I've been able to keep the house, sleep in my bed, and even get sex - so for me it's been "great".

 

The next day started a bit awkwardly but I eventually managed to break the ice with her a little bit..

 

I have to say - I don't quite know where to go from here. I'm not sure if it's just a question of time before she wants to truly work with me on the marriage or not. It's been 2 months - which is not alot, but maybe it's enough at least for her to know what direction she wants to take. I'm afraid that me simply being always amenable, kind, and doing lots of things for her is making her complacent - as though now she has acquired an indentured husband now.

 

She doesn't want to do to MC - so I'm going on my own this Wednesday ..

[Flyin in Clouds]

Fly in Clouds,

 

You sound awfully bitter.

 

Yeah, that's a common mistake people make.

 

It isn't bitterness, it's disgust.

 

People make mistakes,

OK, look a mistake is when you forget to take out the cat liter on garbage day. A mistake is when you forget to deposit a check and overdraw your bank account.

 

Affairs, cheating, adultery, the big A, is not a mistake. It didn't happen accidently. It wasn't a memory lapse. Oh, I forgot I was married.

It was done deliberately. Nobody put a gun to Hard2Think's head and said you must have this affair.

 

So let's not hear the "we all make mistakes" excuse... please.

 

and the reason I signed up was to offer support, and to get support myself. I think that is why alot of people sign up here for.

Support? For a cheater or the victim of a cheater? Nothing justifies cheating. If you aren't happy, have the guts and decency to get a divorce. Or get your spouses permission (as in swinging...)

 

All my sympathy is for the victim of the cheater. The wife in this case.

 

But having a shaky marriage because of his wife's terrible mistreatment of him so he has an affair...

 

Come back tomorrow, and I am going to post my story, still editing the long draft to put on here. I would like input from anyone.

Sure, but don't expect any sympathy from me if you were the cheater.

 

And just what support does a cheater need? To go on tormenting his wife. If the guy had any decency he'd let her go. Oh, but wait he's a cheater. It's all about him... he needs support. Yeah, right. And staying together for the kids... you think kids aren't going to know things aren't right with their parents. Staying in an unhappy marriage isn't doing the kids any favors.

 

And Hard2Think takes her to a bar, even at her request, that is full of guys half her age. What in the hell is he thinking? So this guy has damaged her even more because now she definetly thinks nobody would want her but her H. That really helps her self esteem doesn't it. And Hard2Think is feeling sorry for her. nice.

"I have to say - I don't quite know where to go from here."

 

OK, here's what I think, Hard2Think. You move out. You owe her time to think without you around. And you tell her to find someone to have an affair with. And if after that she wants to choose you, you get back together. If she decides that she doesn't want you then you don't get back together. The Meridith Grey approach. You want her, you compete for her.

[Flyin in Clouds]

Maybe you ought to take the time and read H2T's other thread before acting like a big jerk and judging him.

 

I'm just sayin'!

 

What is to judge? He admited he cheated on his wife. and I suppose there is some litany of excuses as to why he had to do that on the other thread.

 

Sorry, I don't buy it.

 

It is like somebody that pulls out a gun and "accidently" shoots somebody during a robbery. They may be sorry they killed someone but the other fellow is dead just the same. H2T screwed up. No way he can unscrew it. I don't believe the relationship between two people can ever be the same after an affair.

 

I am assuming H2T's wife did remain faithful to him before his A. Now there are a variety of things that a can be done to attempt to get on with life as best as you can...

 

So I have just two questions for H2T.

 

1. what do you honestly think is best for your wife? Do you really think you are the best man for her? Do you honestly think she wouldn't be happier with someone else? Are you haning on to your marrige for your own selfish reasons? Or do you think trying to save the marriage is what is best for her? In short do you really love your wife? It sure doesn't sound like it to me.

 

2. If your wife had done this to you, what would you do?

[jmargel]

H2T, maybe you should look up the 5 stages of grief. Often people go through this when a spouse dies, however one goes through the same thing when affairs happen.

 

Right now she's in the anger stage which is perfectly normal. Let her be angry, let her experience all the emotions. This isn't a situation where you both can come to a conclusion and just go onto the next problem. This will always be lingering in the background. However as time goes on it will be less evident.

 

I believe she's angry because she wants you to feel the hurt she does but she can't do that to you because of her love to you. So she doesn't know where to turn. She probably doesn't want to do MC right now because she knows it won't do any good (at least in her mind) because of the hurt she still wants you to feel that she's going through.

 

What I recommend is just keep doing what you are doing. You need extreme patience in this and the first time you blow-up could mean that she's gone for good. She will do or say things to try to get you upset and if she's gone over the line with a comment or two let her know in a non-threatening way.

 

She's going through mixed emotions right now, but what you have to remember is to be her husband, not her councilor. Don't shower her with love or affection, let her come to you. Try to put yourself in her shoes and see how you would want her to act if you just found out she cheated on you. Just take it day by day.

[Hard2Think]

Thank you .. that does indeed make sense. I'll take it as it comes. Thanks again.

 

H2T, maybe you should look up the 5 stages of grief. Often people go through this when a spouse dies, however one goes through the same thing when affairs happen.

 

Right now she's in the anger stage which is perfectly normal. Let her be angry, let her experience all the emotions. This isn't a situation where you both can come to a conclusion and just go onto the next problem. This will always be lingering in the background. However as time goes on it will be less evident.

 

I believe she's angry because she wants you to feel the hurt she does but she can't do that to you because of her love to you. So she doesn't know where to turn. She probably doesn't want to do MC right now because she knows it won't do any good (at least in her mind) because of the hurt she still wants you to feel that she's going through.

 

What I recommend is just keep doing what you are doing. You need extreme patience in this and the first time you blow-up could mean that she's gone for good. She will do or say things to try to get you upset and if she's gone over the line with a comment or two let her know in a non-threatening way.

 

She's going through mixed emotions right now, but what you have to remember is to be her husband, not her councilor. Don't shower her with love or affection, let her come to you. Try to put yourself in her shoes and see how you would want her to act if you just found out she cheated on you. Just take it day by day.

[Hard2Think]

1.)

a) That I keel over and she collects the 3.5 million life insurance payout

b) No, Bill Gates may be better, or Fabio maybe. I dunno.

c) No. She'd likely start on them at some point, too.

d) You must be joking

e) I think it's best for both of us

f) Yes, I'm sure. Or why else would I go through all this now?

 

2.) If she expressed a desire to work it out, I would. I would also try very hard to understand where I went wrong as well.

 

 

I hope that answers the "2" questions!

 

..So I have just two questions for H2T.

 

1. what do you honestly think is best for your wife? Do you really think you are the best man for her? Do you honestly think she wouldn't be happier with someone else? Are you haning on to your marrige for your own selfish reasons? Or do you think trying to save the marriage is what is best for her? In short do you really love your wife? It sure doesn't sound like it to me.

 

2. If your wife had done this to you, what would you do?

[catgirl1927]

I still don't understand why you don't just let this one go. Your marriage wasn't great to begin with and now your infidelity has ruined it. There's no chance that you can work out your problems together, because she will always see your infidelity as what was really wrong with it.

 

Sometimes things are just ruined. This doesn't sound like there was tons of hope before you ran around on her.

[Hard2Think]

Maybe you're right. But there was a time when things were great between us. Maybe there is a chance we can do it again ..

 

I still don't understand why you don't just let this one go. Your marriage wasn't great to begin with and now your infidelity has ruined it. There's no chance that you can work out your problems together, because she will always see your infidelity as what was really wrong with it.

 

Sometimes things are just ruined. This doesn't sound like there was tons of hope before you ran around on her.

[jmargel]

I still don't understand why you don't just let this one go. Your marriage wasn't great to begin with and now your infidelity has ruined it. There's no chance that you can work out your problems together, because she will always see your infidelity as what was really wrong with it.

 

Sometimes things are just ruined. This doesn't sound like there was tons of hope before you ran around on her.

 

How can you make such statements? To tell someone that there's no chance of working things out is just wrong. You don't know this couple personally and unless you are that woman you (IMO) have no right to make such comments.

 

Only the couple themselves can make that choice whether they want to continue or not. This forum is to help people not to dismiss them.

[catgirl1927]

Maybe you're right. But there was a time when things were great between us. Maybe there is a chance we can do it again ..

 

Only you can really know. But I doubt it. By cheating on her, you have humiliated her in a way that can never be fixed. She will never reasonably be able to trust you again. Ever. Her entire sense of self worth has been destroyed by you and you have in fact gotten away with it with no consequences at all. You're having your cake and eating it too, to this day, and she feels like what she is: a fool. She is never going to be ok with it. Could you forgive someone for basically letting you and everyone else know that you don't feel they are worth anything at all? could you love someone who thought you were nothing and who didn't care at all if they hurt you? I really don't think anyone SHOULD love someone like that. I just think you're torturing her in a really cruel way. I know we're supposed to be supportive of you because your cheating wasn't "your fault" but this is just my impression of this situation.

[Mz. Pixie]

Yeah, that's a common mistake people make.

 

It isn't bitterness, it's disgust.

 

 

So, ummmm, where is your story here??

 

Let me guess- you've been the betrayed spouse!

 

You're obviously under the assumption that when someone cheats it's just them being an ass. The other person takes no ownership?? News flash, when someone cheats in a marriage or relationship it's about problems in that marriage or relationship. That is something that most marriage experts and books agree on.

 

He is the one who crossed the line, yes, and he was wrong. It's never right to cheat. He should have left but he didn't.

 

Yet his wife has mistreated him for years, been cold and unloving and even borderline emotionally abusive. They had kids, assets and history- do you not see how it's not easy to leave in a situation like that??

 

Do you know what it's like to live with someone like that?? Do you know what it's like to lie away night after night feeling unloved and missing the attention of your spouse- the one who promised to put you above all others but never does?? But yet you lie there and calculate what the costs of leaving that person would be?? What it would do to your children?? What it would do to your extended family?? Could you financially make it and take care of your children??

 

Often times people are stuck. In fact if you read this board you'll see that many people often separate and live in the same freaking house because they can't afford otherwise. This is not the case with H2- but sometimes it's just downright scary to leave the situation you're in- even when you know you deserve better.

 

Until you've been in his shoes- don't be so quick to judge him.

 

I can explain it perfectly for you. It's like going without food or water for weeks at a time- and right next to you is a full buffet table and a big ole pitcher of ice water- but you're not allowed to eat or drink it without it's permission. And it never gives you permission. Even if you communicate to it how much you need it. Then you turn around and there is another buffet of food- and it smells just as nice or nicer than what you had- but HEY- this buffet is begging you to come over and take a bite. Your stomach is growling and your mouth is watering and it's just there for the taking. So, yeah, you may be weak and take a bite- all the while knowing that what you really wanted was on the buffet that wouldn't allow you to eat.

 

H2 is obviously a decent guy who loves his wife or he would have never even put up with the sxht she dished out before he had the affair. You cannot judge a person based on a few actions over the course of a marriage as long as theirs.

 

People do things they shouldn't do- we are not perfect. At least not some of us at any rate.

 

He is here, and he's trying to do the work. He's going to marriage counseling while she refuses. He's still paying the bills while she shops and works out. He's still being a father to his kids.

 

Let's give him credit for what he is doing. There is nothing he can do to erase what he did- although I'm sure he wants to.

 

And as far as those guys in the club- that she wanted to go to in the first place??? Let's see how soon they would toss her back to him when she was only concerned with what she could spend or when she refuses to come to their side when their father dies. She is not perfect either, not by a long shot.

[PoshPrincess]

News flash, when someone cheats in a marriage or relationship it's about problems in that marriage or relationship. That is something that most marriage experts and books agree on.

 

I don't agree that this is always the case. The majority of the time, yes, but occasionally, the cheater (M or F) are just greedy. They want to have their cake and eat it, think the grass is greener, etc. I'm not talking about H2Ts sitch of course, just generally. Saying that, I suppose the fact that someone does want to go off and cheat is a problem in itself.

[catgirl1927]

News flash, when someone cheats in a marriage or relationship it's about problems in that marriage or relationship. That is something that most marriage experts and books agree on.

 

Actually, I think that's really just something cheaters agree on.

[Hard2Think]

Ok, here's a guy who is more or less in the same situation I was before the A. What would you suggest he do do avoid it, now - before it's too late?

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t100525/

 

Actually, I think that's really just something cheaters agree on.

[catgirl1927]

Ok, here's a guy who is more or less in the same situation I was before the A. What would you suggest he do do avoid it, now - before it's too late?

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t100525/

 

Well, this won't be a popular answer but it may not be completely her fault. I mean, first of all, this guy mentions swinging in his list of things he reasonably expects a wife to be willing to do, but his is so frigid she just won't do it.

 

My first inclination is for him to ask himself if he's really any good at sex. I mean, she's not a hooker, she might want some romancing rather than to just get it over with as quickly as possible. And shoving something in her ass, believe it or not, is not romantic. Maybe instead of ONLY thinking about himself he could think just a smidge about her enjoyment.

 

I think men say "My wife hates sex," and then dismiss it as a problem solely with her. Sorry boys, not always the case. I really enjoy sex, but then again, my SO makes SURE I enjoy it.

 

Is this an attractive guy? Does he even pretend to care about her feelings?

 

Now, one important thing is that he has stated he wants to go to therapy, to get help, to talk about it and work it out and she dismisses his feelings. BIG red flag. No one's feelings are unimportant. Ever. If this is important to him, and he has expressed that to her, and she blows him off, he needs to confront her with not really an ultimatum but an indication that sex is important to him and she's going to need to compromise to save the marriage. If he's not doing it for her, she needs to help him so he can do it for her. But if she doesn't care how he feels about this, well, that's not really marraige. He deserves someone who wants to be his wife, not just someone who is a roommate with access to his checking account.

 

If she won't bend, I think he should tell her he wants an open marraige so he can get the sex he needs. Hell, she may not care. If she does, well she has a choice. She can either work with him to reach a compromise or release him from the marraige.

 

But under no circumstances is he justified in cheating. Sneaking around and lying is cruel, cowardly and rotten in any and all circumstance.

[Mz. Pixie]

Actually, I think that's really just something cheaters agree on.

 

I just know the marriage books I have read say the same thing- and I don't think that Willard Harley has cheated on his wife.

[catgirl1927]

I just know the marriage books I have read say the same thing- and I don't think that Willard Harley has cheated on his wife.

 

Well, I still don't think that being unhappy in your relationship makes it ok to cheat on someone. It's still a terrible thing to do to someone. And someone who has never felt that total betrayal and had their self esteem destroyed by someone's careless selfishness can never understand what it feels like.

[Freedom Now]

I agree.

 

Cheating destroys trust, self esteem, dignity, and a whole host of other things....

 

Integrity is what is called for in situations where one partner is completely unhappy.

 

If you aren't happy...TRULY unhappy, don't CHEAT.

 

LEAVE.

[Mz. Pixie]

Well, I still don't think that being unhappy in your relationship makes it ok to cheat on someone. It's still a terrible thing to do to someone. And someone who has never felt that total betrayal and had their self esteem destroyed by someone's careless selfishness can never understand what it feels like.

 

I don't think it justifies it either, however, when you are in that position you may not be particularly looking for it to happen- it falls into your lap and you're too weak to resist.

 

Some people post that they are about to cheat, and looking for someone to cheat with- but I'd gather that the majority of people do not do that. It starts off as a friendship- emailing and lunching and calls- and that person becomes important to you- and they are meeting needs your spouse isn't meeting and before you know it you're headed for an affair.

 

Of course that doesn't count the people that just decide to run out and have a ONS.

 

For the record, I have been cheated on before- by a long time boyfriend- and I know how it feels. So, I can understand the situation from both sides.

 

When you are engaging in something like this- you're in full justification mode. You truly believe you're entitled- and it takes a long time for you to be able to see otherwise.

 

However, many people just want to blame the cheater for everything- and that's simply not the case. The BS wants to say "Well gosh, I didn't know they weren't happy- what happened?" when in reality their spouse has already communicated to them that they are unhappy and that their needs are not being met. They are just not listening to their partner or they do not care- and they feel like they have that person no matter what.

 

Does that mean that the person should cheat?? Of course not, but that is very often the course that it takes.

 

I personally never thought that I would cheat. I'm one of the most moral and ethical people you'd want to meet. I don't cheat on my taxes and hell I even give a cashier back money if they overpay me. Just Sunday the guy tried to charge me only for pie on my lunch and I said "Oh, you forgot to charge me for my dinner" I once made my exhusband take a swingset back to the store because it wasn't the one we paid for- it was the more expensive one.

 

So, I'm not without morals or character or integrity. It just so happens that I did something wrong, which I acknowledge. That doesn't mean I'll do it again or that I'm a horrible person. I just simply do not buy the line that says if a person makes a mistake they are doomed to be punished or branded as evil for the rest of their lives.

[Freedom Now]

I agree Mz. Pixie.

 

I have been on both sides of the fence. The cheater and the one cheated on.

 

I would hope that I my actions TODAY speak louder than my foolish actions from the past.

 

Leopards DO change their spots.

 

I did. You did.

 

Anyone can.

 

And it is foolish to judge someone on their past actions IF they have walked away from that lifestyle for good.

 

We are all simply human.

[Mz. Pixie]

I agree Mz. Pixie.

 

I have been on both sides of the fence. The cheater and the one cheated on.

 

I would hope that I my actions TODAY speak louder than my foolish actions from the past.

 

Leopards DO change their spots.

 

I did. You did.

 

Anyone can.

 

And it is foolish to judge someone on their past actions IF they have walked away from that lifestyle for good.

 

We are all simply human.

 

Why thank you Freedom.

[Chapter2]

I did read the entire quote whichway and I also read the ENTIRE previous thread from hard2think. I'm not commenting on whether or not you've been sufficiently or insufficiently "harsh" with him....

 

I did not try to spin your words, just reading them.

 

Did you not read this part?

 

Trust me, I did my share of being quite harsh with H2T on his original thread. I think you're putting your own spin on my words, because they're not meant to read the way you've read them.

 

Read my whole reply again.

[Hard2Think]

I don't know quite where to go from here, now. I feel like we're in some sort of weird limbo. I can see that she's still very angry with me. She told me that any time we're alone together, she can't stop thinking about how OW and I were together .. intimately. She's also made some comments about how she's so 100% sure that I'll do this again, that she doesn't want to get close to me again lest she gets hurt. She also made it clear that she no longer feels the same towards me.

 

At this point, I feel somewhat powerless to do much more - so while I continue to be nice and considerate towards her, I'm not initiating any affection towards her. I'm also getting myself mentally prepared for this thing to fall apart.

 

She refuses to see that she was at least partly responsible for the sad state of the marriage as it was and I can see now that she has no intention of making any changes. She's back to allocating all her time to her gym students, shopping, and her friends - and I don't see much of her except when she's all tired and cranky at night. This is the life she wants - and it really doesn't include me except when it comes time for me to run errands and bring home the paycheck.

 

The problem I'm having is that now that the dust has cleared a bit - I'm getting back to where I was pre-A. I have to re-evaluate whether I really want to stay with her.

[whichwayisup]

These are things you can bring up with your therapist.

 

Either she's testing you once again to see how you'll react or she really has thrown in the towel. I don't know. Doesn't look like she's ANY where near forgiving you, and wanting your marriage to work. SHE must decide to move past this if your marriage has any sort of chance...Honestly, to me, it looks like she's just waiting to see what happens next...If you have another affair, or go find the OW.

 

I have to re-evaluate whether I really want to stay with her.

Yes you do. If she isn't willing to change her ways and become a willing partner in the marriage, what's the point? She's miserable, not fun to be around and she doesn't trust you or act like she enjoys you at all.

 

Until she gets therapy to help heal her, she isn't going to change her ways of thinking, reacting and handling this situation.

[lasan]

Hello Hard,

 

I am fairly new to posting here but I did read your original thread while I was lurking.

 

I just would like to make sure I am clear on a couple things.

 

1. You became disatisfied with your relationship with your wife.

2. You got an OW.

3. You were leaving to be with the OW.

4. Ow got sick of being jerked around and outed you

5. You decided you didn't want the OW and tried to reconcile with the wife.

6. Wife isn't responding well to it.

7. Now you want to leave again. (This time hopefully OW free)

 

I realize that this is a very basic breakdown of all your posts. All that being said, you appear to be waffling to me. I don't know youpersonally but after reading all of your posts, you just keep going back and forth, back and forth. If you are going to give your wife time to deal with what has happened, give her time. She is grieving. If you don't want to wait, then leave. Why keep dragging her with your emotional up's and downs?