Hard2Think - Part II : Trying to Reconcile with W

[Hard2Think]

..If you have another affair, or go find the OW.

 

Yeah - and unless she accepts that this won't happen, she could wait for that shoe to drop for the next 30 years ..!

 

Until she gets therapy to help heal her, she isn't going to change her ways of thinking, reacting and handling this situation.

 

I agree - but at this point I believe her attitude is "you broke it - you fix it". When I do bring up the issues in our marriage for the past several years, she interrupts me and calls it my "script".

 

I can accept that I'm going to have to get beaten up for what I did - but for how long? Another month?, another year?, the rest of my life?

[Freedom Now]

Until she heals completely. And not one minute before that, I would imagine.

[whichwayisup]

Yeah - and unless she accepts that this won't happen, she could wait for that shoe to drop for the next 30 years ..!

I'm sure this is very frustrating for you and honestly, there isn't anything you can do except keep on re-affirming your love for her. The thing is, if she is repelling against that, she's not leaving the door open a crack - There's really no point in continuing...

 

Maybe a separation should be talked about, it seems such drastic measures are the things which MAKE her react, think and talk.

 

I agree - but at this point I believe her attitude is "you broke it - you fix it". When I do bring up the issues in our marriage for the past several years, she interrupts me and calls it my "script".

 

Write another letter, except this time, just tell her straight up what you feel, what you want and what you hope she wants out of the marriage. Just speak from your heart.

 

I can accept that I'm going to have to get beaten up for what I did - but for how long? Another month?, another year?, the rest of my life?

If in the next 3 months things are as they are now, and there's no improvement, then it's possible she's not going to get past this and forgive you.

 

I would hope that you don't wait the rest of your life, even though you love her, you can't be with someone who more or less hates you, resents you and has no real desire to BE emotionally and physically in the marriage.

 

Time will tell...

[whichwayisup]

Until she heals completely. And not one minute before that, I would imagine.

 

I agree too, but with that being said, she's got to let him know there's hope. She's not giving him any hope for a future. And she's also not doing anything to help herself heal completely either. No therapy, no marriage counselling, no willingness to open up and just hear him out.

[Freedom Now]

I agree WWIU.

 

But, I don't know if she HAS any hope. And what is concerning to me is that he admits that he is getting into the "pre-affair" groove with her again.

 

Unless something drastic changes in this marriage, the cycle will start again.

[whichwayisup]

For the past few months he's been working his ass off, and honestly, I think most of it has gone unnoticed by her.

 

He has CHOSEN not to cheat though. I don't believe he's going to do that to her or anybody else again...He learned the lesson the difficult and painful way.

 

You are right, unless something drastic happens, nothing will change. The cycle may start up again - But he won't go and scout out another OW. I think he'd leave her before doing that again.

[Freedom Now]

Now, I admit that I have not read through all of these posts and the other thread he started, so excuse my ignorance if I have missed something.

 

But, he appears to vascillate between staying and going. Not frequently, mind you. But, when times like now are tough, he feels that he needs to "reevaluate whether he really wants to stay with her."

 

Could it be that perhaps she can sense this apprehension and his indecision during these difficult days?

 

Perhaps he needs to FULLY commit to this marriage or get out. Statements like the one where he made the reference regarding the reevaluation of his decision to stay make ME take pause.

 

She doesn't feel safe. And, I can see why.

[whichwayisup]

You have missed alot by not reading all the threads.

 

He is completely willing to stay with her, do all that necessary to make the marriage work. He has shown her this, in words and in action. Unfortunately, she's not willing to see her part in the why the marriage was in shambles before he chose to cheat. (I once again am not saying it's her fault he cheated, he chose to do that and regrets it big time, but she isn't owning up to any of her mistakes in the past.)

 

He, I believe is committed to make it work, she hasn't decided yet if she wants to. One minute she's up, the next minute she down...Which I can understand because of her hurt and pain, but she still has to want him as her husband - Her words and actions are showing him that it's over. Though, when he says he'll leave, she comes running back.

 

In the past she did some cruel things to him, didn't support him while his father was dying and refused to have her father-in-law stay at the house. He'd been supportive of her low times, but she couldn't be there for him and was quite nasty about it.

 

Could it be that perhaps she can sense this apprehension and his indecision during these difficult days?

 

Everytime he does something to reach out, make some progress, she runs the other way. When he backs off, she comes forward..

 

Again, until she's willing to get help, see a therapist on her own and join him in marriage counselling, this is how life is. Unsettling, unhappy and stressful.

 

In a way, the ball is in her court! He's going to marriage counselling and trying to work this out. It's just hard when the other person isn't giving much to show or acknowledge his efforts.

[Freedom Now]

I stand corrected then. However, he should be aware that statements like the ones he is making do not make him appear committed to those of us who have not been following him around this board.

[whichwayisup]

Remember though, this place is a place of venting and sharing thoughts. IT doesn't mean he's verbalizing his frustrations out on her. To come here and just vent is theraputic.

 

Bottom line, he does love her and think she's worth fighting for. It's what he's been doing for afew months now since D-Day.

 

He has to be able to talk about his fears and worst case senario's, and get advice from us without being judged that he's given up. I don't think he has, even in the lowest of moments, he still loves her and wants the marriage to work.

[Freedom Now]

Then he must realize that it will take much more than a few months for her to even entertain the possibility of fixing this to be a good marriage. It took them a long while, I would assume, for their marriage to get into this mess.

 

And, I believe it will take a long while for it to get fixed. He must be patient. It takes two to make a problem, yes. But, he needs to be patient. A few months of trying isn't going to fix their problems. And her pain is going to take a good while before it lessens.

 

Persistence and constancy is the key. She must see his persistence and consistency for her to let him back in, IMHO.

 

[whichwayisup]

You are right but he can only do so much.

 

It all comes down to whether or not she's willing to change her ways as well and together they fix the marriage. She has to open up and go to counselling with him, really "hear" him just as he has to "hear" her.

 

Right now that ain't happening and they're at a stand still.

[Freedom Now]

Perhaps a trial separation would be in order then?

 

Perhaps both of them need to take some time alone to decide what they really want.

 

A possibility?

[Hard2Think]

WWIU,

 

Thanks - you do understand what I've been through. And you are absolutely right - I'm not looking for nor am I even open to the idea of an OW.

 

The pre-affair mindset I was in, even before I met OW, was that I wanted a divorce. I had even consulted an couple of attorneys. I didn't do it primarily because I didn't want to lose the kids and also I didn't want to give up on the idea that she and I could have a good marriage. The latter part was probably stupid, maybe.

 

I understand perfectly that she needs her time to grieve - I have no intention of maying any pressure on her to shorten that. It takes what it takes. On the other hand, I have no real benchmark to compare how long this goes on before I need to realize the situation is hopeless. I don't know if it's 3 months, 6 month, a year ..

[Hard2Think]

Yes - I can see how this looks. But I think to my wife, I don't seem anywhere near as wavering as you all see me - mostly because I tell you things I don't share with her. She doesn't see me going through emotional ups and downs like you do ..

 

Hello Hard,

 

I am fairly new to posting here but I did read your original thread while I was lurking.

 

I just would like to make sure I am clear on a couple things.

 

1. You became disatisfied with your relationship with your wife.

2. You got an OW.

3. You were leaving to be with the OW.

4. Ow got sick of being jerked around and outed you

5. You decided you didn't want the OW and tried to reconcile with the wife.

6. Wife isn't responding well to it.

7. Now you want to leave again. (This time hopefully OW free)

 

I realize that this is a very basic breakdown of all your posts. All that being said, you appear to be waffling to me. I don't know youpersonally but after reading all of your posts, you just keep going back and forth, back and forth. If you are going to give your wife time to deal with what has happened, give her time. She is grieving. If you don't want to wait, then leave. Why keep dragging her with your emotional up's and downs?

[Flyin in Clouds]

1.)

a) That I keel over and she collects the 3.5 million life insurance payout

b) No, Bill Gates may be better, or Fabio maybe. I dunno.

 

So I take it her only interest in a man is his money... got it. Oh, and that keeling over thing - that can be arranged...

 

c) No. She'd likely start on them at some point, too.

d) You must be joking

No I wasn't joking. Isn't your desire to remain married selfish? Why do you want your wife to stay with you? For your benifit? Pride? The kids?

 

Or will you live for her? Are you intrested in her happiness or your own? And which comes first? If you have to choose her happiness or your which do you choose?

 

e) I think it's best for both of us

Why?

 

f) Yes, I'm sure. Or why else would I go through all this now?

Why cheat in the first place? Is your honor worth nothing to you? Is keep your word something that you can just toss away? And the next time things get bad in the marriage why won't you do the same thing?

 

2.) If she expressed a desire to work it out, I would. I would also try very hard to understand where I went wrong as well.

I see so your adultery was your wife's fault. She made you do it. She drove you to it. Uh, huh... blame the victim.

 

I hope that answers the "2" questions!

Not really. But the wink says a lot.

 

What if you wife decides to have an affair, just for the fun of it? Nothing wrong with you at all, she just wanted to play. How would you feel about that? Would it bother you, hurt, devastated? Would it shake your confidence? Raise doubts about yourself? Jealous? Just curious.

[Flyin in Clouds]

Only you can really know. But I doubt it. By cheating on her, you have humiliated her in a way that can never be fixed. She will never reasonably be able to trust you again. Ever. Her entire sense of self worth has been destroyed by you and you have in fact gotten away with it with no consequences at all. You're having your cake and eating it too, to this day, and she feels like what she is: a fool. She is never going to be ok with it. Could you forgive someone for basically letting you and everyone else know that you don't feel they are worth anything at all? could you love someone who thought you were nothing and who didn't care at all if they hurt you? I really don't think anyone SHOULD love someone like that. I just think you're torturing her in a really cruel way. I know we're supposed to be supportive of you because your cheating wasn't "your fault" but this is just my impression of this situation.

 

Excellent!

 

Except for the "your cheating wasn't 'you fault'" thing... sorry, cheating is always the cheaters fault. If the marriage isn't working be honorable and get a divorce before starting a new relationship.

 

My friend cheated on his bitchy wife... she drove him to it... of course he choose to be a cheater instead of divorce her. They worked on their marriage for 4 years before calling it quits. She spent all that time making his life as miserable as possible and setting things up so she got absolutely everything. He ended up virtually pennyless. She shopped for a favorable judge and got a huge child support judgement that basicaly took all his income except a paltry amount he was supposed to live on. He skipped the country for a time, when he came back she had him convicted of a felony for not paying child support (federal crime). So now he can't even get a decent job to pay the huge child support she wants.

[Flyin in Clouds]

So, ummmm, where is your story here??

 

Let me guess- you've been the betrayed spouse!

 

Well if my wife had an affair I don't know about it. I can only with certainty that I have not cheated on her.

 

You're obviously under the assumption that when someone cheats it's just them being an ass.

What else would it be? Yes.

 

The other person takes no ownership?? News flash, when someone cheats in a marriage or relationship it's about problems in that marriage or relationship.

No it is about one person that had no honor. No sense of personal right and wrong.

 

If the relationship has problems get a divorce. Often the threat of a divorce wakes people up and the marriage can be saved without cheating.

 

No problem in a relationship is a legitimate excuse, a justification of cheating.

 

Cheating is wrong. Something is wrong in your relationship. So those two wrong are going to make things right? Nah... just lots of problems.

 

H

e is the one who crossed the line, yes, and he was wrong. It's never right to cheat. He should have left but he didn't.

Yeah, that's my point.

Yet his wife has mistreated him for years, been cold and unloving and even borderline emotionally abusive. They had kids, assets and history- do you not see how it's not easy to leave in a situation like that??

You bet I see how it's not easy. My friends - exactly that, 3 kids, assests, she was a real B... she always berated him in public. He put up with it for years. And the wife's father cheated her mother, and really screwed up their family and her. Her view of all men was they were all scum. She always reminding him if he ever cheated on her that she'd castrate him. And that is figuratively what she did. But he should have divorced her and moved on. Not cheated... he's now practically pennyless. He used to make mid six figures.

 

Doing the right thing is never easy.

 

Do you know what it's like to live with someone like that?? Do you know what it's like to lie away night after night feeling unloved and missing the attention of your spouse-

When I asked my friend why he cheated, knowing full well what she'd do to him. He said, "everyone needs to feel wanted." And yeah, I can related, sort of.

 

My wife's job for the last ten years takes her out of town about half the time, often for a week at a time. Should I find a honey to fill in those lonely nights?

 

 

calculate what the costs of leaving that person would be??

yeah... so? Cheating never makes it better, unless you can keep from getting caught.

 

it's just downright scary to leave the situation you're in- even when you know you deserve better.

Yeah, much easier to betray a louse spouse, hope to not get caught, have your cake and eat it too... I understand.

 

Until you've been in his shoes- don't be so quick to judge him.

Excuse me! I don't have to be a bank robber to judge a bank robber as wrong. BTW, bank robbers have a long list of why they need to rob the bank. The kids needed new shoes...

 

 

 

I can explain it perfectly for you. It's like going without food or water for weeks at a time- and right next to you is a full buffet table and a big ole pitcher of ice water- but you're not allowed to eat or drink it without it's permission. And it never gives you permission. Even if you communicate to it how much you need it. Then you turn around and there is another buffet of food- and it smells just as nice or nicer than what you had- but HEY- this buffet is begging you to come over and take a bite. Your stomach is growling and your mouth is watering and it's just there for the taking. So, yeah, you may be weak and take a bite- all the while knowing that what you really wanted was on the buffet that wouldn't allow you to eat.

Honey, being a man I can tell you the other buffet is awfully tempting. So many women, so little time. I'd love to partake of many banquets. But I promised my wife I'd partake of just one - hers. And while the temptation over 32 years of marriage as been great at time, keeping my word was more important than satisfying my hunger. Easy? Never. Damn hard. Painful? Yes. sometimes beyond belief because I was really hungry for that other buffet.

 

H2 is obviously a decent guy

Sorry, decent people don't cheat. That's what makes them decent.

 

who loves his wife or he would have never even put up with the sxht she dished out before he had the affair. You cannot judge a person based on a few actions over the course of a marriage as long as theirs.

All I know is he cheated. Sure he had a lot of reasons why his wife drove him to it. But he choose the less honorable path to resolve his problems.

 

He is here, and he's trying to do the work. He's going to marriage counseling while she refuses. He's still paying the bills while she shops and works out. He's still being a father to his kids.

Sounds exactly like my friends.

 

Let's give him credit for what he is doing. There is nothing he can do to erase what he did- although I'm sure he wants to.

That's the problem. It can't be undone. It will always be there in the background and his wife doesn't exactly sound like the forgiving kind.

 

 

And as far as those guys in the club- that she wanted to go to in the first place??? Let's see how soon they would toss her back to him when she was only concerned with what she could spend or when she refuses to come to their side when their father dies. She is not perfect either, not by a long shot.

Sorry don't know the whole story. The club? She wouldn't be by her H's side when his father was dying? That's cold. I can't imagine being in that kind of uncaring marriage. I sure wouldn't stick around that is for sure.

[Flyin in Clouds]

I think men say "My wife hates sex," and then dismiss it as a problem solely with her. Sorry boys, not always the case. I really enjoy sex, but then again, my SO makes SURE I enjoy it.

 

The only reason for having sex with a woman is to please her. That's my job. If she's not enjoying it I might as well go whack off in the corner...

 

If he's not doing it for her, she needs to help him so he can do it for her. But if she doesn't care how he feels about this, well, that's not really marraige. He deserves someone who wants to be his wife, not just someone who is a roommate with access to his checking account.

yeap...

 

If she won't bend, I think he should tell her he wants an open marraige so he can get the sex he needs. Hell, she may not care. If she does, well she has a choice. She can either work with him to reach a compromise or release him from the marraige.

Yeap, she may not care. If she doesn't care to have sex, why should she prevent him from getting what she doesn't care to give? That's just mean.

 

But under no circumstances is he justified in cheating. Sneaking around and lying is cruel, cowardly and rotten in any and all circumstance.

Yeap. If she won't come back to bed, and wont' give him permission to visit some other woman's bed, then he should divorce her.

[Flyin in Clouds]

...

 

... when in reality their spouse has already communicated to them that they are unhappy and that their needs are not being met. They are just not listening to their partner or they do not care- and they feel like they have that person no matter what.

 

You mean the BS believed their partner will actually live by their vows, you know for better or worse, ... oh, well..

 

Yes, married people feel they have their partner no matter what. that's what marrige is. A commitment. through thick and thin... and that is the start of the problems. We no longer have to do what we did when dating. Be on our best behavior, convince the other person they want to be with us, because when we're dating we don't have them locked up. Marriage can be deadly to relationships.

 

 

...I once made my exhusband take a swingset back to the store because it wasn't the one we paid for- it was the more expensive one.

And yet for the really important thing you had to be honest about you weren't. Ok... see it is all rationalization because your H mistreated you. If the store had ripped you off, would you be justified in shop lifting?

 

... That doesn't mean I'll do it again or that I'm a horrible person. I just simply do not buy the line that says if a person makes a mistake they are doomed to be punished or branded as evil for the rest of their lives.

Well if I were your present H I'd wonder if I always had to be on my toes to keep you from wondering off... What would always be at the back of my mind was you cheated before, and you did it because <insert list here>... and I'd always have to worry, geez am I treating her good enough. Is what I do ever enough to keep her happy. (Assuming you told your present H about your past indiscretion and if you didn't I'd vew that as a problem in itself - basically hiding part of who you are/were ...)

 

Now maybe you like that. Keeps your man on his toes, always having to wonder, have I done enough to please her.

 

That's something H2T wife will have to worry about. "Heck he cheated on me before and it was all my fault. So if I want to keep him happy I have to be his slave, do everything his way, or he'll be off again. "... Now do you think, long term, she'll like being his slave? Do you think the BS will like having to always be on their toes so their spouse doesn't cheat again? After all if the BS did something wrong they'll have to be constantly on gaurd that they don't do something wrong again.

[Flyin in Clouds]

Yeah - and unless she accepts that this won't happen, she could wait for that shoe to drop for the next 30 years ..!

 

What assurance does she have this won't happen again? Your word? She's been down that route before and your word wasn't any good then, why would it be good now? Just because you say so...

 

I can accept that I'm going to have to get beaten up for what I did - but for how long? Another month?, another year?, the rest of my life?

 

The rest of your life. You think you deserve less?

 

What she did counts 1. What you did counts 100. From her POV.

[Hard2Think]

FIC,

 

You say that divorce is somehow honorable? I guess we each have our POV, but somehow I didn't think it was. Leaving the kids, making them "visit", plus making my role as a provider more precarious for them and my wife ..

 

I'm not saying that cheating was in any way honorable, either. But I think you hold divorce in too high an esteem.

 

The truth is, divorce would have been the best option for me. No more A's, and I could have been involved in a real relationship instead of one with a mistress. At the time - I saw that as causing more harm than good. At least with an A - I could at least feel loved nd cared for while not rocking the boat for the family.

 

Of course, the A partner wound up not liking that - and once I got caught, the harm was probably greater than the divorce.

 

But your suggestion to "just get a divorce" is extremely naive.

[Chapter2]

Hard2Think....

 

The times when I've gotten myself in trouble in life are the times when I've had the arrogance or self-righteousness to say "that won't happen again".... I have read over your previous locked thread and I have read this one as well.... You have been unfaithful before and have proven time and again that your emotions vascillate wildly, just like your wife. This is completey understandable as you are both human beings.

 

What stuns me with you every single time is your complete arrogance in thinking "this will never happen again" or "I'll never do that again".... If you truly do not want to cause this particular type of pain for yourself, your wife or any other woman out there, then you need, IMO, to be talking to your individual counselor about the changes that must be made in yourself to prevent this from happening. Just saying "unless she accepts this won't happen" isn't enough. HUMILITY and understanding that you are weak, need accountabiility and guidance in not harming the ones you say you love this way again is what will help your wife right now. Why on earth shouldn't she be waiting for the other shoe to drop?

 

How believable would your wife be if she walked in and said, "well, I told him I'd never be a bad wife again but for some reason he just doesn't believe me"....that's absurd. You just want her to accept your statement of "I'll never cheat again" at face value and at this point it's meaningless to her and should be! YOU have to rebuild the trust.

 

I'm honestly not flaming you, I just am continually surprised at your apparent surprise that your wife hasn't fully ingested your claim to never do this again.

 

Yeah - and unless she accepts that this won't happen, she could wait for that shoe to drop for the next 30 years ..!

[GreenEyedLady]

H2T: Marriage is a partnership. You and your wife are at a crossroads-which way will you go? Together or apart? It takes TWO to make that partnership successful. At some point you have to ask yourself is it worth it?

 

I have followed your threads and I'm not going to dwell on the A. The focus at this point should be the present and future. From your threads you seem like you don't really want to make something happen, you want it to happen to you. by that I mean, you have considered D, but you don't want to actually pull the trigger. You seem to want her to do it.

 

Your W may never change. She hasn't before or after the A. Are you willing to accept that? And why should she change? She has no reason to because you accept her behavior.

 

I know from your posts that you are deeply sorry for your A. Why do you stay with your W? I hope it is not the punishment that you think you deserve for your A. M should not be a prison.

 

I do not mean to seem down on the W. But I think it is clear that she expects status quo. If she won't go to MC, I think you need to put your foot down, or she won't see any reason why she should go. And the M will never be what it "could" be.

 

I know it's not easy. I left my exh after I watched him fall in love with someone else. He would have been happy to leave it the way it was and continue his double life. But I WOULD NOT have been happy. In the end you have to decide what type of life you want to live.

 

Best of luck!

[Hard2Think]

GreenEyedLady,

 

You are right - there's no denying that. From a purely intellectual, objective viewpoint - I probably should call quits on this one or at least move out and hope that becomes a catalyst for change. In fact - that's probably what I should have done years ago ..

 

It's my emotions that get in the way of doing all that, and maybe I do ned to work through with an IC to figure this one out.