So if a guy is

[Mz. Pixie]

Hell, I tried hinting, then suggestions, then brought home books for us to read together which he wouldn't read, then printed out articles for him to read and left them on his desk which he would throw away, I asked for counseling, I made requests which were not met, and then I finally just point blank said "I will have an affair or leave you if you don't start staying home more and working on our marriage"

 

Response "I do not have time to work on our marriage"

 

I'm not sure how he didn't get it with that last one but apparently he didn't.

[PWSX3]

Hell, I tried hinting, then suggestions, then brought home books for us to read together which he wouldn't read, then printed out articles for him to read and left them on his desk which he would throw away, I asked for counseling, I made requests which were not met, and then I finally just point blank said "I will have an affair or leave you if you don't start staying home more and working on our marriage"

WOW that sounds familiar, I would print stuff off the internet and try and share with the W and at first she would listen and shake her head as if that makes since, then I tried giving her one that was a few pages long and she just put it in a pile of other papers that I have a feeling that will be thrown away. I guess for the person that wants it to work out will try but like everyone has told me you can't make the other person read or do what you want. In my case I still have a chance, I guess I'm swimming towards the lifeboat as Gunny would say it, I just don't know if she will join me only time will tell.

 

My question is; what would happen if some of the people on here would meet up that are divorced and with all the information we have learned do you think they would be a happy couple???????

[Moose]

My immediate thoughts after reading the last few posts are this:

 

First, when you're trying to communicate with your SO what's wrong in your relationship, don't print out crap off the web, or buy books for them to read......what in the world are you trying to do? Point out how ignorant they are? That's so biased. Of course that'll get shot down immediately.

 

A third party familiar with your own unique situation would be best in a situation like this. Even if your spouse doesn't go with, seek it out yourself. You may be surprised with what you find out........about yourself.....

 

Also, another thought I had.....it seems that time is a big issue here. Most people, when they're first married will go through the first year or so establishing the pecking order, the duties, the responsibilites.

 

100% of time, you'll find out something about your spouse that you're not too happy about, or didn't know about until now. So what do you do? You find your median.

 

This median will most likely fluxuiate with time, there will be ups and downs about that particular issue as time goes along. It may never get solved completely but here's what happens:

 

The offended party grows tired of the neglect from the offender. It's a mortal's curse....... this, "time" thing......and it wears us mere humans down. Our own selfishness creeps in and takes control.

 

We can deal with this one of two ways.

 

1. Have the patience of Job, keeping in mind that marriage is a life long commitment. There is no take it or leave it. Find peace with it for yourself even if your spouse refuses to seek resolve more comformed to your wishes.

 

2. Make demands, lists, and threats until the offender's behaviour is altered to your satisfaction.

 

If that doesn't work......leave the marriage....

 

Number 1. doesn't make you a martyr as some will have you believe either.

 

What is does make you is a wise, honorable rock that your wayward spouse will eventually adhere to and follow by example.

 

It may take days, months, until October 31st, or 31 years from now. It doesn't matter. (took me about 15 years)

 

You made the comittment to him/her, so you should stick to it unless he/she is physically abusive, unable to provide for you, or is sleeping around on you......anything other than that is an act of selfishness.

 

If there's a problem in your relationship and your SO isn't willing to seek help, go out and get professional help for yourself.....

[Gunny376]

IMHO, where I believe a lot of the fault is to be laid is in the entire marital process from the get go.

 

In order to fly an airplane you've got to go through hours and hours of ground school, and flight school, with demonstrated ability in math, mechanics, aerodynamics, etc, and then obtain your liscense from no less than the Federal Government.

 

To get married, you've simply have to go down to the court house and get a marriage lisence's only to discover later that you've not the slightest clue as to what in the Hell you're doing. Let alone what you've gotten yourself into. The time to fix something is before it needs fixing to begin with. Pro-active maintenance is always easier and cheaper to deal with than re-active maintenance.

 

What is all the more, is that we're not doing enough to educate our children about the innate and natural differences between men and women, and I'm not just talking about the obvious physical differences. Just in words alone your typical woman uses between four and five thousand words a day compared to the average man's two thousand. So, you've got a communication problem right off the black. I believe its one tribe of the Eskimo that have over 23 differet words for the term "white" As a person of Afriacn descent ~ and they have many words to describe the term "black" especialy as its pretains to any given individual's pigementation.

 

Closely tied to this is education in personal finance. The vast majority are and have been clueless ~ I know I was until such time as I undertook a serious, in-depth study of the subject. Same as the rest of my august colleagues here on the subject of inter-personal relationships such as marriage etc.

 

I take issue with A4A (my inference of such, anyway) that some how that what obvious and natural to her as a woman should be obvious and natural to we men. Its not. At best its a learned behavior and by no means overnight.

 

To be honest, until I cam to LS, I didn't even have a freaking clue that I had emotional needs, let alone anyone else, let alone emotional issues.

[PWSX3]

My immediate thoughts after reading the last few posts are this:

 

First, when you're trying to communicate with your SO what's wrong in your relationship, don't print out crap off the web, or buy books for them to read......what in the world are you trying to do? Point out how ignorant they are? That's so biased. Of course that'll get shot down immediately.

In my situation I was showing her things from the Internet that "I"was doing wrong. I had been on this sight for just a week and a couple people helped open my eyes. I found some other material that showed me how I wasn't treating my W like I should be. Because of that research and being here for a while and reading those books for "myself" I have a different look on maybe some of the things I was doing was because of both of us need to change.

[Moose]

Great post Gunny.

 

PW, in your case, I can see why you'd show her those things, you're pointing out to her what you feel is wrong with you and not what is wrong with her.

 

Your post also reinforces what I suggest some couples do when they have a partner not so willing to seek help. You found it yourself.

[Flyin in Clouds]

If he makes my coffee I thank him, yet he does not thank me for making his iced tea.

 

a4a I haven't the time nor inclination to respond to all your rants... (OK, you sucked me and I went through most of post and responded... got nothing better to do cause the wife is out of town ...)

 

but that line above sums up your relationship entirely! It is the epitome of your pettiness. IMHO.

 

Your H doesn't say thank you, so kicking him to the crub the worthless bum! Geez...

 

Just because he doesn't say thank you doesn't mean he doesn't appreciate you or the things you do.

 

My wife and I don't go around thanking each other for stuff like that. It isn't necessary. We thank strangers for kindnesses. For each other it goes without saying that we appreciate each other. See the two of us are not strangers. So we don't treat each other as if we were strangers. It seems you and your husband are like two strangers, just living together. Separate finances, separate houses, separate lives. Strangers that have to say thank you to each other. Maybe you ought to get to know one another better... so you don't need a thank you.

 

And when I say you don't appreciate him it is because you totally dis his grocery store flowers instead of being thankful he stopped to get you anything at all. It's called ingratitude. And being a rich bitch I can understand that was ingrained in you early. I don't say that to mean, it's just how you come off. A spoiled rich kid wanting everything there way. My way or the highway.

 

If you really want your marriage to last half as long as mine, I suggest you stop worrying about what you are getting and complaining about all the things your H does wrong and think only about loving your H.

 

And actually learning what Christianity is all about just might do you some good. Particularly the forgiveness part.

 

Maybe that is part of the reason she cut you off from sex, wasn't that you?

You know I've seen your type on these boards all the time... cheap shots --- personal attacks when anyone disagrees with you or answers your drivel. If you want to know the full (fuller) story it is on one of the other threads. And I hesitated about posting it because I knew you would say something like the above. And of course any problems I might have in my marriage, which are nothing like yours, you'd use as weapon to attack anything I said about things you wrote.

 

and so I'll just close with your typical retort.

 

My wife isn't anything like you. Not all women are like you a4a. My wife is actually kind - and nice.

 

So go stick a fork in your own head, OK? :lmao:

 

"I don't think saying thank you or acknowledging an act of kindness is asking too much even of a stranger. "

damnit a4a you've got it all backwards again. If you do a kindness for a stranger you have no right to ask or demand that they thank you. If someone does a kindness for you, and you want to thank them, then you may.

 

the golden rule in your world seems to be, "If you treat me the way I want to be treated, I'll be nice to you too."

"YOU NEED TO GET OVER THE ALL WOMEN THING TOO"

I didn't say ALL women. I said women prefaced by generally - . apparently you are clueless as to the difference so here it is. ALL WOMAN means all women - as in all women have a at least half a brain. Now is that true or false? All women have or had boobs. Let's try one of yours. "Men are retards". Of course not all men are retards. So what could you men. You mean most men are retards. When I use an unqualified reference to men or women, like " a difference between men and woman is ... " I mean for most men and most women a difference would be ... you following this? It goes without saying that "All Men are retards" isn't the same as saying "Men are retards".

 

And I write from a male perspective. gee maybe cause I'm male. And yes, women babble more than men. Women vent. men don't. In fact your whole 27 page thread was just one long venting session. When women vent men tend to ignore it unless we think you aren't venting but want us to actually solve some problem for you.

 

"

last time I cleaned it up he was thrilled. (so here again you are telling me I suck in so many words without having a clue about how my H does feel)"

Why do you assume that my comments are directed solely at you as if you are the only one in the audience?

Maybe your H is so inept he needs you to clean up his messes, he can't even cut the grass... but most men would probably not appreciate their wives cleaning up their shop or office or tools. So the comment was for the benefit of others a4a. We all know that you and yours are strange (meaning not normal, not "most", not like anybody else) ...

 

How you get "you are telling me I suck" out of "General rule-don't mess with a man's workshop" is beyond me.

 

And what part of "general rule" don't you understand? That part that implies there are exceptions to the general rule maybe? geez.

 

I'll say it again, but correct the spelling this time (man do I make a lot of typos)...

"I can only suggest that you aren't a very good match for each other. You are "upper crust" and he's good old boy NASCAR."

Do you understand figurative speech at all? The point was, you aren't a good match because you want different things and that is a terrible bother for you, poor thing... mean old H insisted on HIS race, and I didn't get MY night at the symphony... I think I'll crawl in a corner and pout - and write 27 pages about it on LS.

 

As I read your posts a4a, you make huge mountains out of relationship mole hills... compared to some of the people's problems on this site yours are absolutely nothing. Be a little grateful you don't have a cheating husband to deal with. I know you'd dump his sorry ass in a heartbeat... but that is only because you aren't tightly bound to him. He really isn't necessary for you, so no big deal to dump him if he misbehaves. You wouldn't have the inner turmoil that so many on this site have over how to fix things up even though their heart is broken. And see that's a problem for your relationship and why I don't give you very good odds to make past 10 years. You're too up tight and you won't let yourself get too close to H because then you might lose some of that independence and actually admit you can't live without him. Yeah, that would be not only silly, unrealistic but down right bad - to fall head over heels in love.

 

"I have been understanding and supportive for a year before saying "do something about it now"."

having been depressed to the point of being suicidal I can tell you that telling a depressed person "do something about it ... now" won't help at all. If anything it will only make it worse. What the depressed person hears is, "I don't really care to help you solve your problems, fix it your self you worthless looser." I know because your words are almost exactly what my wife would say to me "you need to fix it" and it didn't help. It only made things worse.

 

Once again a4a what you are saying is that his problems aren't your problems. Very few depressed people can really help themselves out of the hole they are in.

 

If his ambition is to make "artistic wood artsy things" and he can't get there that is depressing. google Steve Jobs "find what you love". It was an address Steve gave at Standord. worth the read IMO.

"Men do have that option "

No men don't have that option. A man (say your H) might. But men don't. If both H and W want to stay at home, they won't have a home for long. So who gets to decide who stays at home and who works? Men don't really get the option. Women do. that's the reality.

"not all women are exactly the same nor men."

No one said they were. You get all hung on when someone makes a generalization - that if it doesn't apply to 100% of all human beings in the set that the statement is totally invalid. If something doesn't apply it doesn't apply. But this is true. Normal Heterosexual Men are more alike than they are different. I bet you H and I both enjoy staring at boobs. We both enjoy sex with women. I might prefer blue eyed blonds, he green eyed redheads... but the thing in common would be women and a good BJ.

 

"your statements about how you feel and how he feels cannot apply."

maybe not in every case, but I'm sure in many things we'd find agreement. And my statements aren't always about me or how I feel or about my marriage. They are my observations of men in general, or marriage in general. So don't be confused that I'm saying it's my personal experience.

 

"perhaps it is you that cannot handle people with differing opinions that do not fit into your parameters?"

what I get form your posts is a self absorbed woman that if she keeps it up may not be married for long. If that's what you want. fine. after all you don't need a man.

 

"the fact that I have a vagina does not make me roar."

See there you go again.... not all vagina owners roar. not even most vagina owner's roar. Just some of them.

 

"I am not turning it around like an attack at all. But unless you know what really happens ... "

Yes, you do turn things into an attack. It's your style. I try to offer some insite into how many men work and all you can do is come back and say "well that's not us, and we aren't like you... " Fine, nothing anyone can say can help you a4a cause you are so unique you aren't like anybody else, so nobody's experiences apply to you. I only know what you post and if that's incomplete that ain't my fault. But don't take that as in invitation to post your full story. The web server would roll over and die. Why do you bother? Just venting? Or do you want help?

 

I bet your H and I are more alike than you'd care to think or imagine. We may not have the same hobbies, but I bet we both have hobbies. We both like women - obviously. But since he's so unique and you are so unique nobody else's experiences can help you. So what do you want from anyone here? If it is just venting please put that at the top of the post so I can ignore it.

 

When you write "Perhaps what you offer is not enough for the women you are seeing or married to." that is personal and offensive and of course mean spirited and deliberately so. OK. So I'll put into your space... Perhaps your H is not as attentive to you as you'd like because he's just using you and you don't really offer the unconditional kind of love he desires.

 

"reply that says "no see my H would rather be a stay at home dad than have a thriving career" for example."

Your H wants to do artsy fartsy stuff. I can relate. I do photography as a hobby. He cuts up wood. But unless he's real good that won't gain him much status. Maybe you guys are hermits and he doesn't care what other people think of him. Most people do care. What motivates your husband?

 

 

"... as a matter a fact I stated things are actually going pretty darn well...... "

Temporary at best. I'll still say you two are basically incompatible. He'll slip up and you'll get all bent out of shape because he didn't say "thank you" at the right time or horror of horrors he brings you grocery store flowers again. Do I have the whole picture of your life? No. Do I need it? No, I think I've seen enough.

"since I put my foot down and declared enough is enough"

The problem is not asking for what you want in your relationship but the way you go about it. It's the tone. Angry ...

"vent about it"

You and many women like you vent.

"You choose to share time with someone you do not become a parasite/host to each other."

You have a real problem with the one-flesh concept don't you... The us and ours versus me, mine and his. The total commitment thing... and that's why I say it won't last. if you can get beyond this POV that needing someone is the same as being a parasite... then maybe you'll survive. But I just don't see it in your case. I see two people being roommates with benefits. Not two people that have become one and indivisible.

 

Yeah, but I don't know what I'm talking about and neither does Moose. Yeah, ignore us because you two and your R is so unique.

 

"See again this is sorta an attack without you knowing what is going on. No I do not tell him he is a failure, I often tell him how great he is. He sees himself as intelligent and attractive.... so yeah I did ask and ask often how he is feeling if he seems a little "off"."

I see. so you only tell people behind his back want a failure he is. So much for open honest communication. So you can't or wont' tell him everything you've said about him on this forum? But you'll keep all the resentment locked up inside... and it will come back the next time he slips up. And he will.

"As for his feeling he was not all that upset at all."

Or he's just real good at hiding his disappointment. But if he had done that to you, you would have been all over his case.

 

"am I to just sit in the chair for 12 hours waiting to see if he had something planned? "

Yeah, that's what a considerate spouse would have done. I bet it is exactly what you would have expected him to do. All you did was complain that he wasn't home earlier, ...

" "look how they are they think flowers from a grocery store suck, what can we do to please them"....... you missed the whole point that planning is the most important thing to me... but the plan must also be executed."

No I got your point. I understand that planning is what is important to you. But planning isn't his strength (apparently because that too comes from reading your posts.) So to make you happy you insist he do what he isn't good at. You can't accept him as he is, you have to make him fit your mold.

 

But you really did missed my point. You can't except his gracious offering as an expression of his love for you - expressed his way - you reject his love language. Instead you tell him that doesn't meet your requirements... you find fault. You demand he understand your love language. He plans a dinner for your anniversary and damn it's his fault for not telling you he had a surprise dinner for you... do you see my point at all a4a? Are you that blind? If you keep going in that direction IMO you are headed for a very rocky road ahead. Unless your guy is a total doormat ...

 

Your posts were not focused primarily on "how can I make "our" relationship better". It was how can I make "my" relationship better.

 

"There is no such thing as a knight in shining armor, ..."

Well feminists keep trying to kill them that is for sure. But many women would disagree. And many women sure seem to want one. Even you during the dog incident. But H went MIA.

"I live in the real world "

No you live in your world. A world without romance or much passion. Or so it seems to me. Mere cold reality. Your marriage is a business contract, roommates with benefits and nothing more.

 

"Again this has nothing to do with a MAN OR A HUSBAND, this is a human response even between friends"

Oh, even I, a total stranger would have defended you. I think of myself as one of those knight in shinning armor types. That's figurative speech for "I'll step forward to defend women and children from vicious dogs. "

"daring deeds and be the savior for so long before it just becomes dull"

You have a very warped view of the world? How did you get that way? It isn't about daring deeds all the time. It's about coming to my wife's rescue when she needs me.

 

"friendship, thoughtfulness, caring are the long term keys to success IMHO in a R."

some of us thought it was about romance and love. and lots of sex.

 

It seems you grew up in a very drab, dreary world. Wouldn't have been some former communist country like Romania or Poland or Latvia would it?

 

"Sure but it is not me that keeps saying ALL WOMEN - ALL MEN. "

and neither did I. try reading more carefully. You do tend to read a lot in that just isn't there.

 

"gender roles should not be broken = women soft, needy, must have a man for survival, family first, live by their heart alone. Men must be knights, bread winners, tough, career."

try reading again... didn't say anything like that.

 

"certain posters cannot seem but to keep telling me I am out of line with my desires to just be me. Is this some odd power or control issue some men have with women that are not needy, soft, and aware that they can indeed survive in this world without a man?"

a4a you can be anything you want. You can live all by yourself and be lonely. Or do it with your horses for all I care. You can live anyway you want. Be anything you want. You can even learn to fly in clouds. You can live with Mr. Doormat. or with a guy you like to bend to your will, or whatever. You and your life partner can start the lesbian soap calendar business.

 

What I was trying to tell you, since you seems rather unhappy a while ago, in fact had some rage issues that might call for anger management class - threats to stick a certain male companion in the head with a fork (who keeps thinking your aiming for his eye), ...

 

what I was trying to tell you is that you can try to change a million years of evolution over night, and live in your own alternate reality, but the odds of success are small. Just look at the divorce rate. That is reality. And given my the length of my marriage you might take some of my advise as it may be, if ever so slightly, relevant to you and yours.

 

You make a big deal out of saying women can live without man. Nuns have done so for how many thousand years? Men can live without women too, but why on earth would I want to? Mere survival ain't a life worth living. Living like a monk ain't my idea of living.

 

"Sure can you stop telling me I am so wrong for how I feel? What I want from my life? I do not reply but for that reason alone. So many people are so so unaccepting if people want or value something different than what they want."

a4a. you had problems with your H. I tried to help giving my POV on the world, men, women, marriage. You don't believe in my POV. Fine. You think none of what I say applies. I think some of it does.

 

And were did I say you were wrong for how you feel? You aren't wrong for wanting what you want. Any more than I am for what I want. But I'm smart enough to realize that I can't always have everything I want. See there's another person in my relationship. My wife. And sometimes our wants don't over lap. It's called compromise.

Why are you threatened when someone suggests something more traditional? You afraid to try it?

 

I was trying to point out things you may not have thought of. Not insisting they are the solution to your problem.

 

What I don't see from your posts is any willingness to try to even see your H's POV. From a male perspective. His POV simple doesn't matter. You want what you want.

 

" Perhaps it is a matter of tolerance and empathy for others."

Now that is funny. you complaining of tolerance and empathy for others... how much of those do you have for your H?

"I do say grocery store flowers do not mean anything to me "

You are missing the point a4a.... listen up ... THEY MEANT SOMETHING TO YOUR H TO GIVE THEM TO YOU. (maybe... unless they didn't mean anything to him either... but...)

 

It's like a kid that makes a hand spun clay pot at school. It's not fine china. It's all warped and funny shaped, and the glaze is rather ugly. Nothing fine about it. Doesn't fit with the bone china... and his mom says, "boy is that thing ugly. put it right in the trash... I don't want that thing in my china cabinet. "

 

Can you see my point? You are not wrong for wanting something else, but you are wrong for dissing the gift your husband did select for you. If someone gives you a christmas present and it isn't anything you need or want to do you tell them to keep? The person that gives the gift gets to select what they want to give don't they? You seem to want to tell your H what gifts he should give you.

"men can only feel good when they feel needed, have their egos stroked by women, need to feel like a knight, need to feel superior to their wife in career and ability. (what fragile creatures men are)"

women can only feel good when they feel needed, and it's demonstrated in the way they demand, have their egos stroked, i.e. told how beautiful they are - daily or for some have elaborate plans made for them, need to feel like a queen - but never be told they are queen size, need to prove they really don't need their knight and certainly are not inferior him in anyway, and have to keep their man in line by sticking a fork in his head from time to time, as their mood swing dictates.

"And it is obvious that some men do babble on and on and on..."

No, women babble. Men make rational arguments...

 

babble. verb, as to vent, speak incoherently...

 

"Shouldn't you be out cleaning up your shop instead of posting about relationships and feelings? "

Shouldn't you be out polishing your guys knob? Ask your H if he'd like a great BJ or you cleaning up his shop. If he picks you cleaning the shop you got real troubles.

 

PAX a4a... I sincerely wish you and yours a long and happy life. I hope you can learn to tolerate your guys short comings in the planning department and accept him for the guy he is, as he should accept you for who you are.

 

And the things I post are obviously my opinions and how I see things in this reality of mine. and you know of all our friends, only two other couples have been married as long as we have and are on first marriages. you might take that into account when dismissing me as out of touch with reality.

[Flyin in Clouds]

...

 

But all some of us guys were trying to say was that we work hard (some very hard) at making things better for ourselves and our family and we still get kicked in the nuts for it.... The more we apparently try to harder the boots are that hit us....

 

CC, that's because you dind't properly understand her "needs". You brought her flowers when she wanted "planning" or some other ill defined thingy...

 

Bottom line is there is just no pleaseing some people.

[Flyin in Clouds]

...

I worked often sometimes 7 days a week, very seldom stopped at a bar for a few beers after work, provided a nice home, We never wanted for anything, so I thought!

Everyone who knew us were very shocked upon hearing about our separation & divorce.

...

 

I recommend Dr. Laura's book, Care and Feeding of Husbands. The target audience is the W but the letters from men in the book hit a cord. And it's mostly for the more 50's man works, wife stays at home couple.

 

The man works his butt off and thinks providing the money to pay the mortgage, food, etc. is showing is love. The wife "expects" that and when her "needs" aren't meet there's trouble. Of course the husband's needs are often neglected by the wife.

 

You don't have to agree with everything in the book or even like Dr. L (cause I don't). But some of it may be useful.

 

In my case, one thing that has kept us together for 32 years, through ups and downs, has been we both valued family more than our own "needs". I guess my wife's and my top need was family. And so our other problems, disappointments, unfullfiled needs, where never enough to enough to split us apart because of the glue of family. That's a long winded way of saying we weren't very selfish. Our individual needs were not as important as "our" need to be together. Being Christian we also forgave each other or little faults, perhaps more easily than non-Christians. And we come from homes where there were no divorces. All four grandparents lived together until death parted them, as did our parents, and all our aunts and uncles.

 

Amoung the cousins only three were divorced. A family value thing... my wife and I have grown so we are like two cells of one body. When we are apart (like now) it's hard for me to sleep. When she's home, I can fall asleep on the couch.

 

So I don't know why people leave other than they put their unmet "needs" - what ever those are - above a need to be part of a family.

 

Now both my wife and I worked and I think there is more of a problem with a stay at home mom. It's awfully boring (unless you have a ranch and horses to take care of) to be at home, isolated from the world. So I think it's tougher on those moms.

[Mz. Pixie]

First, when you're trying to communicate with your SO what's wrong in your relationship, don't print out crap off the web, or buy books for them to read......what in the world are you trying to do? Point out how ignorant they are? That's so biased. Of course that'll get shot down immediately.

 

A third party familiar with your own unique situation would be best in a situation like this. Even if your spouse doesn't go with, seek it out yourself. You may be surprised with what you find out........about yourself.....

 

 

First of all Moose- I tried communicating with him. I also approached the books, and stuff from the web as "I want to make our marriage the best it can be for both of us" it was not "Here's what you're doing wrong" or "Here is how stupid you are"

 

I did also seek counseling for myself- heck because of my childhood I've been in and out of counseling for ten years. My recent counselor said that our marriage would have ended eventually for one reason or another even if I wouldn't have had the affair because he was incapable of putting anyone other than himself first. My pastor at the time of the divorce said he could honestly understand why I was completely empty and just couldn't give anymore. He still encouraged me to try, but he did understand why I felt everything that I felt.

 

I sought a third party- both of his parents- numerous times and both together and separately. They chose not to talk to him about his behaviors- because by that point, I'd stopped even talking about it. My ex FIL said after the fact that he felt like he had some responsibility in the situation because he never took my words and pleas to heart.

 

What I'm talking about is not getting married to someone and then finding out things about them you don't like. Something you don't like is that he farts in his sleep, or leaves the toilet lid up. I'm not talking about stupid crap like that Moose. I'm talking about a man who pretty much ignored his wife and family for years- choosing to do whatever he wanted to do- everyone else be damned- and left me to be the responsible one. He never even cared whether his own two kids had lunch, or shoes or clothes on their back- just as long as he could spend what he wanted to on himself.

 

This is someone who was too busy to pick our child up at daycare when my mother was dying because "It wasn't a good time for him"

 

Someone whose approach line for lovemaking was "Hey let's knock off a piece"

 

This is not that I found out things about him I didn't like. He gained alot of weight and went bald- but I didn't leave him for that. It was the continuous neglect and mistreatment that he inflicted upon me that squashed all of my feelings for him.

 

Love was a decision for me for alot of years- but eventually even the most patient of us can wear down.

 

You have no idea what I went through- the stuff I've posted is not even 1/4 of what it was. It is a slap in the face for some of us women who went as long as we could until there was just not any more hope left and who did what we could to hear from you even the slightest suggestion that we did something to make our husbands NOT want to meet our needs or that by changing our actions we could get our husband to change theirs- because I certainly TRIED IT ALL. That's basically like saying we asked to be mistreated or that we didn't deserve to be treated like the gift that God gave our husbands (which we are).

 

Just because your wife was patient enough and committed enough to put up with all of your crap until you got sober doesn't mean that everyone else is. I think it's wonderful that you and Ms. Moose have what you have but that formula just doesn't work for everyone.

[Woggle]

You say a man should treat his wife like a gift from but if a man treats his wife like that does he then deserve the same treatment in return?

[Moose]

Your recent councelour wasn't privy to what was going on at the time, nor did he or she hear your husband's side. Your were told what you needed to be told for peace of mind sake.....

 

Your Pastor was biased, (even though you ignored his advice), your MIL and FIL were biased, these weren't third party, non-biased individuals who could've helped.

 

The only difference between Mrs. Moose and yourself is that she remained faithful and steadfast to her comittment to our marriage. It wasn't rocket science, and she's not super natural.

[Touche]

You say a man should treat his wife like a gift from but if a man treats his wife like that does he then deserve the same treatment in return?

 

Absolutely!

[Mz. Pixie]

Your recent councelour wasn't privy to what was going on at the time, nor did he or she hear your husband's side. Your were told what you needed to be told for peace of mind sake.....

 

Your Pastor was biased, (even though you ignored his advice), your MIL and FIL were biased, these weren't third party, non-biased individuals who could've helped.

 

The only difference between Mrs. Moose and yourself is that she remained faithful and steadfast to her comittment to our marriage. It wasn't rocket science, and she's not super natural.

 

How could my pastor be biased?? Especially after hearing my side as well as his side?? You're right, I did ignore his advice because basically his advice was that although he knew I didn't have anything left to give I should stay with a man who had no committment to me just because the Bible called for me to.

 

How exactly Moose do you get someone to visit someone who's third party?? Because when I begged him to go to counseling on his own or with me- and as such I was attending- he refused to go?? He didn't have a problem. We didn't have a problem and didn't need to speak to anyone.

 

What you're saying is that I should have sat there meek as a mouse, letting him treat me and our children like dirt, go to counseling on my own and do all the work while he didn't have to do a damn thing. And that "my witness" would lead him to do the right thing. WTFever. I did try that for a long long time. Took my kids to church without him, and even his own parents said that our children would not be what they were without my devotion and love to them.

 

I never said Ms. Moose was super natural or that it was brain surgery. Bully to her that she was able to do what she did.

 

But you should be careful about painting yourself as so righteous and mighty. You're a sinner saved by Grace just like the rest of us and yes, you do still sin. You know as well as I do that there isn't one bigger sin than the other so who exactly are you to judge me for sinning just like you do? Just because it's not the same sin it doesn't mean squat.

[Mz. Pixie]

You say a man should treat his wife like a gift from but if a man treats his wife like that does he then deserve the same treatment in return?

 

Absolutely she should. Completely.

[a4a]

dgiirl, I don't think us males are saying you should be happy when we keep to this list of things the OP wrote out.

 

I do think we get pissed when it's not even considered. We know full well these things aren't going to cover all the bases, just don't count them out completely.....it should matter to you, and mean something to you that we do these things......we know you need more, we really do!!

 

Of course those things matter or some women would not even give you the time of day. JFC!!! Are they appreciated of course and they are expected by most people (men and women).

 

But they are not the things that enrich or enhance a marriage.

 

Many men could be "good citizens" but never bother to fulfill the W's needs and of course many W's are good as well but don't fulfill the H's needs.

 

It is considered/appreciated otherwise (speaking for myself) I would never deal with my H in the first place.

 

and for crying out loud CC get over it..... hell I like men better than women so I certainly am not picking on men. I understand why many men have affairs, I see why. Hell I even have said it is the damn W's fault. And who says I am directing each comment at you personally? sheesh!

[Moose]

But they are not the things that enrich or enhance a marriage.

That's where you're dead wrong. And I'll stick to that no matter what you say. It plays a HUGE part in marriage.....

[a4a]

a4a I haven't the time nor inclination to respond to all your rants... (OK, you sucked me and I went through most of post and responded... got nothing better to do cause the wife is out of town ...)

 

I did not read your post..... I cannot stand men that babble.

 

But dag gone my comment about men being retards ( as far as I cared to journey into your babblings) ......that was soley to you saying women are bytches. So you got the reaction you deserved. :lmao:

 

Now I suggest you watch a porn or go cut some wood (wood- porn) wait I think we might have something here.......

[a4a]

 

It may take days, months, until October 31st, or 31 years from now. It doesn't matter. (took me about 15 years)

 

.....

 

Think of it this way also before reading this: different people different backgrounds..... you married youngish, you had a drinking problem, your bride was pregnant....... totally different circumstances along with totally different people.

 

 

Moose that may work for some in your situation, glad it did in yours. I honestly mean this: I appreciate your concern and your devotion to keeping your word is very admirable.

 

Let me show you another route that is working for US. It may not work for you but it is working for us. I found this note for me today in my planner when I was at the airport, in the parking lot waiting on a flight:

 

I am sorry I have not been such a good husband. I did not know how to make you happy. I thought I would be easy. I was wrong.

 

I thought I knew how to make you happy all the time. I love you so much and nothing would make US happier if I could know exactly how to show you how much I do love you.

 

I know now, and I will.

 

All I can say to this short note is WOW! He got it. He has been reading books now even Chapman, even without comments about the religious bits in it. He is reading a friggin eye bending twister book on passive aggressive behavior.

 

For months I nicely asked, I said please, I cried, begged, I TRIED TO PLEASE HIM EVEN MORE HOPING FOR A RETURN. It took a list, it took a threat that I will adhere to. IT TOOK A ROCK (or a fork )TO MAKE THINGS TURN AROUND. I beat the hell out of myself thinking I must be awful, wrong, fat, skinny, work too hard, too lazy, suck in bed, bad haircut, ........you name it I beat myself up. The whole time it was my fault though because I was not communicating to him in a way he really understood.

 

My H said to me last night : Thank You. I said for what? He said - I had no idea what I was or was not doing in our marriage and you took the time to finally make me see. (not exact quote but close)

 

And again I asked if he was happy with me, he says yes,very.

 

Now I am still hurt, and hoping that this is not a short lived turn around. But it seems to have worked. I am not perfect but I do my damn very best to make sure that he feels wanted by me. See you read the good things I say and do for him.... not much need to post "hey we are having a perfect day and I told my H how wonderful he is in every way today and how much I appreciate him."

[Moose]

Now I am still hurt, and hoping that this is not a short lived turn around. But it seems to have worked.

Well, all I can say is that from my experience, as well as many other, "long term", married couples I've known through the years with different backgrounds, and from all walks life.......it will be short lived.

 

A few months from now, (if you keep him on as husband), you'll see him reverting back to some of his old character traits. Maybe not all of them, but he will get into another rut sooner or later.

 

He will learn from this and gain better responsiblities to your needs, but not every single one of them, not 100% of the time.

 

You come off to me, and maybe some other people that you're not about to put up with that.

 

All I'm saying is that if that is true, why don't you cut the line and let the man go? Because what you're asking is impossible.

 

Incidentally, I had to open our fire proof box last night to get a title out, and found a silk flower that I picked up and gave to Mrs. Moose while buying gas like 10 years ago. They were just up by the counter, they're like miniature roses wrapped in plastic.

 

I think they were .99 cents then, but Mrs. Moose kept it. Not just that, she kept it locked up in a safe place.

 

She told me that the perfume they scented it with was unique and she'd always remember me, and the day I gave it to her. Whenever she'd need in the box she'd catch a whiff and she'd remember that particular day.......

 

.99 cents.......

[a4a]

Well, all I can say is that from my experience, as well as many other, "long term", married couples I've known through the years with different backgrounds, and from all walks life.......it will be short lived.

 

A few months from now, (if you keep him on as husband), you'll see him reverting back to some of his old character traits. Maybe not all of them, but he will get into another rut sooner or later.

 

He will learn from this and gain better responsiblities to your needs, but not every single one of them, not 100% of the time.

 

You come off to me, and maybe some other people that you're not about to put up with that.

 

All I'm saying is that if that is true, why don't you cut the line and let the man go? Because what you're asking is impossible.

 

Incidentally, I had to open our fire proof box last night to get a title out, and found a silk flower that I picked up and gave to Mrs. Moose while buying gas like 10 years ago. They were just up by the counter, they're like miniature roses wrapped in plastic.

 

I think they were .99 cents then, but Mrs. Moose kept it. Not just that, she kept it locked up in a safe place.

 

She told me that the perfume they scented it with was unique and she'd always remember me, and the day I gave it to her. Whenever she'd need in the box she'd catch a whiff and she'd remember that particular day.......

 

.99 cents.......

 

 

why the story about the .99 cent rose?

 

You know what is the most precious gift he could give me.... time. His time, quality time...... see he thinks us putting shingles on roof together is quality time together..... I don't. He thinks riding in the car to the store is quality time...... my idea of quality time is spending just a half hour in bed just being goofy even. Going out to dinner per his request to spend a few hours with me. You don't seem to understand that he treats me more like a coworker and roommate unless HE IS IN THE MOOD. If I am in the mood ...... he is way too busy or wants to mow the lawn.

 

He will learn from this and gain better responsiblities to your needs, but not every single one of them, not 100% of the time.

 

I think I would be thrilled with even 33% of my "needs" being met.

[JohnnyG]

Getting back to the topic posted by a very sincere person.

I find that my situation is very similar.

I worked often sometimes 7 days a week, very seldom stopped at a bar for a few beers after work, provided a nice home, We never wanted for anything, so I thought!

Everyone who knew us were very shocked upon hearing about our separation & divorce.

After finding this websight & reading stories about others who are struggling with their relationships .I have been enlightened on the many needs my spouse wasn't recieving from me . I was clueless!!!

And now I pay the price,so does the rest of the family.

My oldest stepdaughter & I were talking about life since the separation and how nothing has been the same.My D said that everything is going wrong in our lives. The sad point is I feel responsible for it! If I only had the knowledge then that I do today. It seems that everyday I learn a little more about myself & the needs of others,thanks to LS, Marriage builders, EMT,& others.

Not to mention the fine people who share their wisdom from their own life stories.

 

man do I ever see myself in this long thread.. I only wish I would have known all of this 5 years ago when things started going down hill ... and that my W would have seen this place before she decided to leave.. (or see it now) ... but she hates computers.. so that'll never happen.. just like I don't believe she'll ever return.. after I treated her "like a queen" (so I thought).. I guess I've been wrong all along.. I wasn't meeting her emotinal needs.. and I guess she wasn't meeting mine.. because of me

[ilmw]

why the story about the .99 cent rose?

 

You know what is the most precious gift he could give me.... time. His time, quality time...... see he thinks us putting shingles on roof together is quality time together..... I don't. He thinks riding in the car to the store is quality time...... my idea of quality time is spending just a half hour in bed just being goofy even. Going out to dinner per his request to spend a few hours with me. You don't seem to understand that he treats me more like a coworker and roommate unless HE IS IN THE MOOD. If I am in the mood ...... he is way too busy or wants to mow the lawn.

 

 

 

I think I would be thrilled with even 33% of my "needs" being met.

 

You kinda sound like my DW in this respect.... My idea of quality time ... was lost... always wanted to do fun things... but for some stupit reason... procractinated... or forgot... was to wrapped up at times in my own personal issues.... that I forgot to take care of her needs....

 

I had no idea I was actually doing anything wrong.... regarding our relationship..... Now I do.... geeeeesh:o

[a4a]

You kinda sound like my DW in this respect.... My idea of quality time ... was lost... always wanted to do fun things... but for some stupit reason... procractinated... or forgot... was to wrapped up at times in my own personal issues.... that I forgot to take care of her needs....

 

I had no idea I was actually doing anything wrong.... regarding our relationship..... Now I do.... geeeeesh:o

 

 

Bingo this is my H. Perhaps that is why I am so banging on the PLANNING.....see if he really planned and executed it, it would most likely happen. I bet overall you are a pretty good guy too just like him.

 

Funny I told him I live in reality..... just because you thought you were going to do it or wanted to does not mean it really happened.... I told him that maybe he really thinks because he "thinks" or "wants" to do these things that he kinda really did do them??

 

his good intentions do not fulfill my needs.

[ilmw]

his good intentions do not fulfill my needs.

 

Yup...thats true....

 

Something I vowed in the begining of my seperation... was that (I think I have let to many people down... by saying I would do something.. and then not doing it....) I vowed that If I say I am going to do something... I do it and do it the best I can.... since June... I have kept every promise I have made... and for me that is a first... .. and there has been a few:D

 

I learned to look outside myself for once.... and see how I effect others... and appartently I did effect others.. other than my wife too... huge reality check:confused: !