So if a guy is

[Flyin in Clouds]

...

How do you not know that appreciation is not given?

 

How do I know that apprecition is not given? Because you say so.

 

If he makes my coffee I thank him, yet he does not thank me for making his iced tea.

Are you serious? This is a source of conflict for you. A sore point. (it must be because you give it as an example) Grow up...

 

My wife and I are mature enough to know we don't have to thank each other for stuff we do for each other. The doing is enough.

 

That is another general difference between men and women. We don't babble all the time about our emotional needs. We keep the talking to a minimum to get the job done. We don't verbalize. Just the way most men are. It DOES NOT mean we don't love you. It just means we don't love to talk about it all the time.

 

 

am considering taking half the day off and going to the farm to clean out his woodshop that is a disaster right now. But I don't think he would even appreciate it,

Whenever my wife gets "helpful" that way I'd like to kill her. I like things messy and were I put them. Every time I am forced to clean up it takes me forever to find stuff again. When it's in disorganized piles I remember just were everything is. So before you blast off doing him any "favors" why don't you ask if he'd really appreciate that?

 

General rule - don't mess with a man's workshop.

 

Fine example: I go to the race with him - I wished to attend the symphony this summer. Race happened - symphony did not.

I can only suggest that you aren't a very good match for each other. You are "upper curst" and he's good old boy NASCAR.

 

Men are retards.....

Well that will get you a lot of points... frankly women are the retards. We men are easy. A loaf of bread, a jug of wine and thou... (preferably au natural...)

 

You give the wrong gift .... like giving a pair of shoes to a footless man. Then blame the man for not being overjoyed for the gift of the shoes???

If that's how you look a gift horse fine... don't expect many gifts.

 

Well perhaps not all men want to pay the tab 100% and I think that is actually very selfish to "expect that".

Not all men like to lead when dancing. Not all men like their wives to be faithful to them. What is your point? And no one is saying you (or any woman in partciular) are incapable of paying your own way and for your own roof. What is true of some (many?) men is they want to feel they are providing for their familiy. They view it as their job and when you are the prime bread winner they wonder if they are really men, really worth while. Could that apply to your H? Possibly. Will he tell you? Probably not. Your H lost a lot of money and as you describe it I read it as he was depressed. You can choose to not understand that concept if you want. Just be aware it might explain some of his behavior.

 

(aside - News item on ABC news right now. 43% of women are taking the "off ramp". Leaving the corporate rat race to rejoin their families. They choose not to persue their career in favor of being at home with their kids. If only men had that option.)

 

No I do not need a man.

Yes, you've made that clear - repeatedly. "I am woman hear me roar..." good for you. Can you understand that perhaps, just perhaps, you are the one that is different from the majority of the world?

 

My POV. If there were no women in the world there would be no point in living. There would certainly be no enjoyment it in for me.

 

 

Perhaps what you offer is not enough for the women you are seeing or married to.

You know a4a, you have this very annoying habit of turning everything around as an attack on anyone that begs to differ with your opinion or comment on your life. I've explained zip about myself or my M on this site so far.... you OTOH, continually whine to us all about your lousy H because he just doesn't measure up to your transendental non-materialic wishes for undying expresions of love and devotion.

 

Do you think I tell him " I don't need you?"

Not in so many words but I think that message comes through loud and clear.

 

Do you not think that people are capable of living on their own? He would not curl up and die if I left and be helpless, nor would I.

That isn't the point. Sure you'd both survive. But then why do you bother with someone you don't need? You are self sufficent without him so do without him if he annoys you so damn much.

 

Lessen their value. Do you not think that a mans action or non actions can lessen a womans value? Do you not think if a woman says " I really want to spend a weekend by ourselves" and if the man blows that off it does not make the woman feel like she means crap to him?

Sure. Do you think that always pointing out that your H is a failure in your eyes does him harm? I have no idea how your H values himself. Do you? Really?

 

And of course when a woman that has been bitching and moaning about how inattentive her H is has clients come over on their anniversary ... and blows her H's plans for a romantic dinner she has been saying she wants... well just how does that make your H feel? And no he won't ever tell you it hurt him. He's got too much pride for that. All you will get is "that's OK dear". But it won't be the real truth. You aren't good at reading between the lines of what he tells you are you? Flowers from a grocery store. How disgusting.

 

 

I have never told a man or a woman that holds a door open for me "I can do it myself". I say thank you and smile at them.

This has nothing to do with feminism.

OK, so you are a little slow on getting the smbolic reference. The feminist movement has many good points, equal opportunity and equal pay and all that rot. But it has it's down side. One of which is telling a guy that wants to be your knight in shinning arm, "hell buddy I don't need no stinking knight in shinning armor". I can rescue myself. Men (and this is one of those generalizations again... and maybe it doesn't apply to your man but I'd bet it does, though the dog incident has me wondering) want to protect and defend their families, their woman and children. And apprently you "expect" it too because you were royally pissed that your H didn't come to your defense when being attacked by dogs. We consider it a noble thing to lay down our very life to protect women and children. But what is the point when all we get is "we don't need a man in our life to do any of that for us".

 

You wanted your H to defend you or stick up for you, and yet you don't need him for anything. So I guess you don't need him to stick up for you when you were attacked by dogs or to smack the big old fat man up side the head for not giving you the shot records.

 

Can you see you have a totally inconsitent position? You don't need a man, except when you do need a man.

 

 

.... I mean I did not blow the neighbor last week and my H did not even appreciate it.

Oh, I'd bet he does appreciate it. He just doesn't need you to validate that all the time. You OTOH, seem to have this need to be reassured he loves you all the time. Do you have some major insecurities or something?

 

because they have a preconcieved idea of how all marriages or relationships should be (gender roles, or how all men or women think and desire things) they cannot grasp the idea that others do not want or desire the same things that they do.

Fine. You and yours are exceptions. We don't need to hear anymore about it. Let the rest of us get on with discussing the norm... would that be OK with you? Most women do like their knight in shinning armor.

 

Not all men think alike. Not all men are the same......

Of course. There are some men that even like to have sex with other men. They just aren't the "norm" - as in the marority, as in they are not what most men are. So saying men like to stare at boobs doesn't mean EVERY man likes to. But it does mean MOST men like to. Got the concept now? Can we move on?

 

Can you stop with this "not all ... are like that" arguments?

 

His W is into fashion and woman clubs..... my H laughed when it was suggested that we could probably good friends.

 

I am into sports, outdoors, building things, and chatting about politics.

Great. So what? Do you think you two (hetrosexual in committend relationship women) might have some things in common, like a desire for your mates to "show" you that you are loved in some way?

 

So different men desire different types of women. Women desire different types of men, have different needs and of course different expectations.

No, you really have no different expecation than his wife. You expect to be shown love. You just (may) have different preferences in how that expression of love is demonstrated. She may have come from an impoverished childhood and feels that a waterford crystal thingy is an expression of love. You would blow it off as if it was nothing. What you want she wouldn't want. But you both ultimately want the same underlying thing - to be loved and appreciated for who you are. When you get rid of the superficial stuff you really aren't very different at all.

 

And there comes a point where one does look and think I have done 100 things for him/her and asked for him/her to do 1 for me and it is not done and now I am pissed and hurt. I have had enough. That is not a matter of keeping score that is a matter of noticing a trend in a R/M.

I've got a lot more stuff to say about comments on this thread but it's getting really long and I'd rather not make everyone wade through all this stuff.

[Flyin in Clouds]

...

Here's a short list-I'm sure I left alot out.

 

Honesty

Communication

Fidelity

Appreciation

Respect

...

 

Do you know how hard (impossible) it is to be totally Honest when Communicating with someone you love and don't want to piss off and possibly loose?

 

So if your H said to you, "Dear I want to try anal sex at least once before I die and if you are unwilling would you mind terribly if I hired a whore?" What if he told you he'd really like to try a threesome with your best friend?

 

Do you tell your H all your deepest, darkest fantasies? Maybe you don't have any. If your H told you any of those things what would your answer be? Stick a fork in his head?

 

My point is those particular items, but do we really know what is deep down inside the other person. Or is there always some level of masking going on where we just aren't sure we want to reveal all of our soul to the other person.

[Flyin in Clouds]

.... "I don't know why she/he left.......I did everything for her/him"....... obviously something was missing because if it was all there he /she would not have left.

 

I can't believe you'd say that. All people aren't the same. Obviously some people leave without something being missing.

 

The things in sometimes one person can't provide everything. It's hard for one woman to be many different women. See Coolidge effect.

[a4a]

Sorry but I could not help but to reply to this long drawn out bash fest.

 

 

How do I know that apprecition is not given? Because you say so.

 

I always acknowledge and say thank you if not more. But of course I guess this is assumed again.

 

Are you serious? This is a source of conflict for you. A sore point. (it must be because you give it as an example) Grow up...

 

No not a conflict the point that I tried to make that it is not ALWAYS WOMEN that do not appreciate actions performed for them.

 

My wife and I are mature enough to know we don't have to thank each other for stuff we do for each other. The doing is enough.

 

Maybe that is part of the reason she cut you off from sex, wasn't that you? I don't think saying thank you or acknowledging an act of kindness is asking too much even of a stranger. Of course not all things need a "thank you" = like thanking who ever pumps the gas in the car is needed when your both in it.

 

That is another general difference between men and women. We don't babble all the time about our emotional needs. We keep the talking to a minimum to get the job done. We don't verbalize. Just the way most men are. It DOES NOT mean we don't love you. It just means we don't love to talk about it all the time.

 

Again not all women babble...... as a matter a fact I prefer the music on in the car rather than chatting about nothing. YOU NEED TO GET OVER THE ALL WOMEN THING TOO Talk doesn't mean crap unless you back it up with actions IMHO.

 

 

Whenever my wife gets "helpful" that way I'd like to kill her. I like things messy and were I put them. Every time I am forced to clean up it takes me forever to find stuff again. When it's in disorganized piles I remember just were everything is. So before you blast off doing him any "favors" why don't you ask if he'd really appreciate that?

 

AGAIN POINT TO MAKE THAT NOT ALL MEN ARE JUST LIKE YOU.

 

General rule - don't mess with a man's workshop.

 

last time I cleaned it up he was thrilled. (so here again you are telling me I suck in so many words without having a clue about how my H does feel)

 

I can only suggest that you aren't a very good match for each other. You are "upper curst" and he's good old boy NASCAR.

 

AGAIN ASSUMPTIONS..... THE RACE IS ONCE A YEAR AND THERE AIN'T NO DEM DAR NASCAR STICKERS OR FLAGS HERE. He is far from a good ole boy..... he is from a middle to upper class family.

 

 

 

If that's how you look a gift horse fine... don't expect many gifts.

IF THE HORSE IS OLD AND LAME ALL IT DOES IS EAT AND CRAP - SO WHAT IS IT'S VALUE? :lmao: (I took it in a literal sense)

 

Your H lost a lot of money and as you describe it I read it as he was depressed. You can choose to not understand that concept if you want. Just be aware it might explain some of his behavior.

 

If that is true that is not my issue to work out or control, I have been understanding and supportive for a year before saying "do something about it now". He would not tolerate a stahm like some of his friends have. He would like to work from home and I am doing my best to help him do so within the next two years. After long discussions he would like to be a stahd if we had kids Yeah so I don't think earning the $$ is the driving force that makes him get up each morning he would really prefer to work at home making artistic wood artsy things and if we had kids he is the one that would want to stay home with them (his preference).

 

(aside - News item on ABC news right now. 43% of women are taking the "off ramp". Leaving the corporate rat race to rejoin their families. They choose not to persue their career in favor of being at home with their kids. If only men had that option.)

 

Men do have that option but they are too afraid that they will appear to be lesser beings in the eyes of others. My H is heading that direction. I like the rat race in many ways myself. Sense of accomplishment in a way to make $.

 

Yes, you've made that clear - repeatedly. "I am woman hear me roar..." good for you. Can you understand that perhaps, just perhaps, you are the one that is different from the majority of the world?

 

No I am me. The fact that I have a vagina does not make me roar.

and not all women are exactly the same nor men.

 

You know a4a, you have this very annoying habit of turning everything around as an attack on anyone that begs to differ with your opinion or comment on your life.

 

Ahh. I am not turning it around like an attack at all. But unless you know what really happens (my H would prefer not to work but perhaps do woodworking more as a hobby income and be a stay at home dad for example) your statements about how you feel and how he feels cannot apply.

 

My opinion is my opinion, yours is yours, perhaps it is you that cannot handle people with differing opinions that do not fit into your parameters? Apparently we live extremely different lifestyles and you are not getting the whole picture through mere posts containing just tidbits of information. So to allow you to better understand things I do post more info and then this is taken I guess as "impossible" because it is different then the norm? Not an attack. Just a reply that says "no see my H would rather be a stay at home dad than have a thriving career" for example.

 

 

 

 

I've explained zip about myself or my M on this site so far.... you OTOH, continually whine to us all about your lousy H because he just doesn't measure up to your transendental non-materialic wishes for undying expresions of love and devotion.

 

:lmao: No as a matter a fact I stated things are actually going pretty darn well...... it is posters that keep saying "YOU ARE DOOMED" AND DRAGGING UP PAST ISSUES. We are actually doing quite well since I put my foot down and declared enough is enough But keep poking at me

 

 

 

That isn't the point. Sure you'd both survive. But then why do you bother with someone you don't need? You are self sufficent without him so do without him if he annoys you so damn much.

 

This is called reality. Guess what, we are all going to die one day and one of us will be alone most likely. You choose to share time with someone you do not become a parasite/host to each other. As for annoying I am quite sure that people are often annoyed with their friends, family, spouse, or kids and vent about it. I do not bash or vent about him to friends or relatives. That is disrespectful IMHO. But again I don't post here and say "my marriage is the very very best in the world" that would be a lie..... or does that go with the fake until you make it theory? My M is fine at this time but could use a little spice in it. It is improving since the big blow up.

 

Sure. Do you think that always pointing out that your H is a failure in your eyes does him harm? I have no idea how your H values himself. Do you? Really?

 

See again this is sorta an attack without you knowing what is going on. No I do not tell him he is a failure, I often tell him how great he is. He sees himself as intelligent and attractive.... so yeah I did ask and ask often how he is feeling if he seems a little "off".

 

And of course when a woman that has been bitching and moaning about how inattentive her H is has clients come over on their anniversary ... and blows her H's plans for a romantic dinner she has been saying she wants... well just how does that make your H feel?

 

As for his feeling he was not all that upset at all. He just said it did not work out and not because of my client that was here for 20 minutes. He spent our entire anniversary working outside without communication with me as to a time for dinner or anything else so..... am I to just sit in the chair for 12 hours waiting to see if he had something planned? (see again I am forced to defend myself because of commments like this) But my guess if it was he that had a client over for a mere 20 minutes it would be ok because he is the big bread winner and it was only 20 minutes of the whole day. :lmao: See my 20 minute client had a check written to me to pay the bills that my H cannot pay alone....so my 20 minute client was to his benefit as well.

 

 

And no he won't ever tell you it hurt him. He's got too much pride for that. All you will get is "that's OK dear". But it won't be the real truth. You aren't good at reading between the lines of what he tells you are you? Flowers from a grocery store. How disgusting.

 

Again you are not reading things correctly. For some damn reason some men on here either need to validate their own short comings using me as an example and bash all women through me saying "look how they are they think flowers from a grocery store suck, what can we do to please them"....... you missed the whole point that planning is the most important thing to me... but the plan must also be executed. That is my language of love....so no grocery store flowers are not the cats meow to me at all...... so what...

 

OK, so you are a little slow on getting the smbolic reference. The feminist movement has many good points, equal opportunity and equal pay and all that rot. But it has it's down side. One of which is telling a guy that wants to be your knight in shinning arm, "hell buddy I don't need no stinking knight in shinning armor". I can rescue myself.

 

There is no such thing as a knight in shining armor, that is something men or women do usually in the start of a relationship. I live in the real world and regardless if it were he or a friend in the same position I would have defended or supported a person in the same position that I was in.......for that matter a stranger probably.

 

You wanted your H to defend you or stick up for you, and yet you don't need him for anything. So I guess you don't need him to stick up for you when you were attacked by dogs or to smack the big old fat man up side the head for not giving you the shot records.

 

Can you see you have a totally inconsitent position? You don't need a man, except when you do need a man.

 

Again this has nothing to do with a MAN OR A HUSBAND, this is a human response even between friends Gang members would even stand up for each other :lmao:

 

 

Oh, I'd bet he does appreciate it. He just doesn't need you to validate that all the time. You OTOH, seem to have this need to be reassured he loves you all the time. Do you have some major insecurities or something?

 

No but when one person constantly gives freely and when asked you do fulfill a desire or need of a spouse, you should expect when you ask for something for it to occassionally be done. Nothing to do with insecurity......filling up gas cans is not about insecurity.

 

 

Fine. You and yours are exceptions. We don't need to hear anymore about it. Let the rest of us get on with discussing the norm... would that be OK with you? Most women do like their knight in shinning armor.

 

Well like I said in my world we are not all that different from those we have as friends and coworkers. I don't think most women stick with knights, because they can only perform so many daring deeds and be the savior for so long before it just becomes dull......then they probably cut off the sex once the romance novel drama passes..... friendship, thoughtfulness, caring are the long term keys to success IMHO in a R.

 

Of course. There are some men that even like to have sex with other men. They just aren't the "norm" - as in the marority, as in they are not what most men are. So saying men like to stare at boobs doesn't mean EVERY man likes to. But it does mean MOST men like to. Got the concept now? Can we move on?

 

Sure but it is not me that keeps saying ALL WOMEN - ALL MEN. Why get your man panties in a bunch over a person that does not share the same point of view and recognizes people and relationships that have individual goals, needs, and desires...... see I think that is the major problem. Also I think it is odd that the Men that keep poking at me are the ones like you that seem to think gender roles should not be broken = women soft, needy, must have a man for survival, family first, live by their heart alone. Men must be knights, bread winners, tough, career. I am not the one upset by the choices of others or saying they are wrong...... certain posters cannot seem but to keep telling me I am out of line with my desires to just be me. Is this some odd power or control issue some men have with women that are not needy, soft, and aware that they can indeed survive in this world without a man?

 

Is it that scarey to them? This is not about feminism at all. I don't think all women should work outside the home......their choice.

 

Can you stop with this "not all ... are like that" arguments?

 

Sure can you stop telling me I am so wrong for how I feel? What I want from my life? I do not reply but for that reason alone. So many people are so so unaccepting if people want or value something different than what they want. Do they feel threatened?

I would really like to know why. Perhaps it is a matter of tolerance and empathy for others. The lack of those two things are probably what has made the world suck so damn much. Funny how it shows up here as well.

 

 

 

 

 

What you want she wouldn't want. But you both ultimately want the same underlying thing - to be loved and appreciated for who you are. When you get rid of the superficial stuff you really aren't very different at all.

 

Yes that is so true! But in the way I desire. So when one suggests that because what their wife expects or desires should be the exact thing that I do....... I do say grocery store flowers do not mean anything to me nor would a prada bag (does that make me a biotch?).....now a new mounting block would make me squeal with delight though! So when people keep telling me I suck for not wanting flowers......they apparently are not hearing what I am saying my needs and desires are because they have different needs and desires...... I suck because I don't need a knight too I guess? I should go buy my H a baseball because that is what his friend wants???

 

 

Overall from what I took from this post men can only feel good when they feel needed, have their egos stroked by women, need to feel like a knight, need to feel superior to their wife in career and ability. (what fragile creatures men are) Women should feed this beast, fake it, pretend like everything a man does is right or good enough so not to upset him. Act like they need them no matter what and pretend they are incapable???

 

I guess I am a realist. I don't like to pretend, I am blunt and to the point.

 

 

And it is obvious that some men do babble on and on and on...... :lmao:

 

Shouldn't you be out cleaning up your shop instead of posting about relationships and feelings?

[CryingCanuck]

leads to other problems....

 

Diplomacy works best at times and if not then usually we send our kids to make diplomacy work....

 

I'm sorry but your attitude here really sucks a4a !!! I'm not going to cut and paste anything you said it's just not worth the effort..

I've read a lot of your posts and you might have an reasonable argument somewhere in that mess but it gets lost with all the verbal diahrea spewed before and after the point is made.

 

You make guys sound like knuckle draggers from caveman days....

 

I guess attitudes are everything in life and yes there are other people who like you, hold those types of opinions, but your generalizations really are a waste of time to read.

 

This thread originally posted by a really nice person was originally for guys to get off their chests about why their W's left not to have a "lady" come in and tell us just how shietty us men really are. You want to bash us men? good, find a thread that is open to bashing men, I'm sure you will stand in line to get your 2 cents in worth.

 

But all some of us guys were trying to say was that we work hard (some very hard) at making things better for ourselves and our family and we still get kicked in the nuts for it.... The more we apparently try to harder the boots are that hit us....

 

Enough said...

 

CC

[a4a]

leads to other problems....

 

Diplomacy works best at times and if not then usually we send our kids to make diplomacy work....

 

I'm sorry but your attitude here really sucks a4a !!! I'm not going to cut and paste anything you said it's just not worth the effort..

I've read a lot of your posts and you might have an reasonable argument somewhere in that mess but it gets lost with all the verbal diahrea spewed before and after the point is made.

 

You make guys sound like knuckle draggers from caveman days....

 

I guess attitudes are everything in life and yes there are other people who like you, hold those types of opinions, but your generalizations really are a waste of time to read.

 

This thread originally posted by a really nice person was originally for guys to get off their chests about why their W's left not to have a "lady" come in and tell us just how shietty us men really are. You want to bash us men? good, find a thread that is open to bashing men, I'm sure you will stand in line to get your 2 cents in worth.

 

But all some of us guys were trying to say was that we work hard (some very hard) at making things better for ourselves and our family and we still get kicked in the nuts for it.... The more we apparently try to harder the boots are that hit us....

 

Enough said...

 

CC

 

who is bashing men at all?? I am now very confused. I was replying to the poster not agreeing that all men need to feel like such and such...

Actually the poster was bashing the hell out of me...... look at the underlined personal digs throughtout the post....... lashing out without even knowing truly what happens here or who my H is and his real life reactions.

 

How could you miss that in all my posts that not all women or men are alike?

 

 

And honestly people leave people because just like in my case my needs were not being met. They may not communicate them, they may grow apart or change their needs... but if everything was done most people would not just pack up and leave for some vague reason. Or just because they got the urge to move out that day.

 

You make guys sound like knuckle draggers from caveman days....

 

See this is the attitude I was exactly addressing regardless of gender. People leave people (no sex assigned, gay straight or green and purple) because they are not having their needs met.

 

And maybe you were busting your nuts, but maybe, just maybe you were busting your nuts trying to fulfill the wrong need? Are you sure you were treating your wife in a manner in which she needed or desired?

 

I am sure some do and the h or w still leave, but maybe it just still was not being truly fulfilled? Perhaps the spouse who left was not even aware of what would make him or her truly content with their spouse? Each case is different.

 

There is no possible way any person is so perfect that they can say "I did everything right, and he/she still left me". Nobody would want to leave a person that was so damn perfect and able to fulfill their needs. And of course it is more complicated than just pinning it on one partner, but unless the person is afflicted with some severe mental issues they would not just pack up and boogey out the door without a reason.

 

Being a good person and not drinking, gambling, yada yada ya ........ is not enough to fill the needs of every women or man on earth in a R. If one believe it is they are mistaken. IMHO.

 

I got an odd feeling that hurtful angry feelings are being projected onto me because perhaps I hit a hot button in some part of R's where the wife left for unknown reasons? I am being serious about this......stop and think about it for a minute.

 

Maybe instead of taking out anger on me use me as a lesson in that maybe your w/h is not having her/his needs met....... because you don't know what those needs are?

 

That WAS the case with my H. Now he is working on it and things look great. Keep in mind I was already aware or asked what his needs were. Mine which are not the generalized needs of most women, I see now, so perhaps more difficult to decipher for him or to understand even if clearly communicated.

 

Maybe many people just cannot understand their spouses needs are different than what they think they are or should be?

 

All girls like perfume and flowers........no this one like gadgets and building things.

[flowerpot]

leads to other problems....

 

Diplomacy works best at times and if not then usually we send our kids to make diplomacy work....

 

I'm sorry but your attitude here really sucks a4a !!! I'm not going to cut and paste anything you said it's just not worth the effort..

I've read a lot of your posts and you might have an reasonable argument somewhere in that mess but it gets lost with all the verbal diahrea spewed before and after the point is made.

 

You make guys sound like knuckle draggers from caveman days....

 

I guess attitudes are everything in life and yes there are other people who like you, hold those types of opinions, but your generalizations really are a waste of time to read.

 

This thread originally posted by a really nice person was originally for guys to get off their chests about why their W's left not to have a "lady" come in and tell us just how shietty us men really are. You want to bash us men? good, find a thread that is open to bashing men, I'm sure you will stand in line to get your 2 cents in worth.

 

But all some of us guys were trying to say was that we work hard (some very hard) at making things better for ourselves and our family and we still get kicked in the nuts for it.... The more we apparently try to harder the boots are that hit us....

 

Enough said...

 

CC

 

Getting back to the topic posted by a very sincere person.

I find that my situation is very similar.

I worked often sometimes 7 days a week, very seldom stopped at a bar for a few beers after work, provided a nice home, We never wanted for anything, so I thought!

Everyone who knew us were very shocked upon hearing about our separation & divorce.

After finding this websight & reading stories about others who are struggling with their relationships .I have been enlightened on the many needs my spouse wasn't recieving from me . I was clueless!!!

And now I pay the price,so does the rest of the family.

My oldest stepdaughter & I were talking about life since the separation and how nothing has been the same.My D said that everything is going wrong in our lives. The sad point is I feel responsible for it! If I only had the knowledge then that I do today. It seems that everyday I learn a little more about myself & the needs of others,thanks to LS, Marriage builders, EMT,& others.

Not to mention the fine people who share their wisdom from their own life stories.

[ilmw]

Getting back to the topic posted by a very sincere person.

I find that my situation is very similar.

I worked often sometimes 7 days a week, very seldom stopped at a bar for a few beers after work, provided a nice home, We never wanted for anything, so I thought!

Everyone who knew us were very shocked upon hearing about our separation & divorce.

After finding this websight & reading stories about others who are struggling with their relationships .I have been enlightened on the many needs my spouse wasn't recieving from me . I was clueless!!!

And now I pay the price,so does the rest of the family.

My oldest stepdaughter & I were talking about life since the separation and how nothing has been the same.My D said that everything is going wrong in our lives. The sad point is I feel responsible for it! If I only had the knowledge then that I do today. It seems that everyday I learn a little more about myself & the needs of others,thanks to LS, Marriage builders, EMT,& others.

Not to mention the fine people who share their wisdom from their own life stories.

 

I mirror what you said... I could not have written anything different except the daughter stuff:)

[a4a]

Getting back to the topic posted by a very sincere person.

I find that my situation is very similar.

I worked often sometimes 7 days a week, very seldom stopped at a bar for a few beers after work, provided a nice home, We never wanted for anything, so I thought!

Everyone who knew us were very shocked upon hearing about our separation & divorce.

After finding this websight & reading stories about others who are struggling with their relationships .I have been enlightened on the many needs my spouse wasn't recieving from me . I was clueless!!!

And now I pay the price,so does the rest of the family.

My oldest stepdaughter & I were talking about life since the separation and how nothing has been the same.My D said that everything is going wrong in our lives. The sad point is I feel responsible for it! If I only had the knowledge then that I do today. It seems that everyday I learn a little more about myself & the needs of others,thanks to LS, Marriage builders, EMT,& others.

Not to mention the fine people who share their wisdom from their own life stories.

 

 

BINGO!!!! BINGO!!!! BINGO!!!!

 

It is my job to find out what my H's needs are and do my damn best to fulfill those...... and I learned this on my own through other failed relationships and believe it or not animal training.... YOU GET THE REACTION YOU DESERVE!

 

And each animal will react differently to the same stimulus. So you must learn how to get the reaction you want, not expect the animal to conform to your wishes by reading your mind.

[CryingCanuck]

Is there not a responsibility for the "person who's needs are not being met" by the other to express those needs instead of " you should have known?

 

Is there not a responsibility for the person who feels their SO is not making them happy to look inward and say does this person make me happy or am I not responsible for my own happiness with this person?

 

Seems to me, that many here at times, think that the other person is their route to personal joy, where it should be the other way around. Responsibility to oneself is foremost in this, is it not?

 

I've said it before and will keep saying it, if I'm not happy, why? what can I do to make myself truly happy, I sure as hell know it's not depending on someone else to make me happy that is a pipe dream always meant to fail. We owe ouselves happiness but to achieve it, do we not have to take responsibility for ourselves too and not blame the other for not providing it.

 

Are we not supposed to compliment each other, NOT be responsible for each other.....

 

CC

[ilmw]

CC

 

I agree with what you are saying... in regards to self happiness...

 

I my own stich... I was unhappy.... not with my DW... or my family life... mainly (me). The thing is I did not know what the hell was going on inside my own head.... My moods effected my family.. and had a devistating effect on my DW... she did her best... (I see this now..) to make me happy... but because I could not do it for myself... how could she.

 

Like they say... "If you don't love yourself... how can you expect anyone elso to."

 

Yes... you are responsible for your own happiness.

[flowerpot]

CC

 

I agree with what you are saying... in regards to self happiness...

 

I my own stich... I was unhappy.... not with my DW... or my family life... mainly (me). The thing is I did not know what the hell was going on inside my own head.... My moods effected my family.. and had a devistating effect on my DW... she did her best... (I see this now..) to make me happy... but because I could not do it for myself... how could she.

 

Like they say... "If you don't love yourself... how can you expect anyone elso to."

 

Yes... you are responsible for your own happiness.

ilmw,

Your hitting pretty close to myself brother.

I too was unhappy with what was going on in my life!! I too also brought my frustrations home with me!! I too didn't know what was going on inside of me!!! and unfotunatally my wife didn't speak up to say "hey honey we have some major problems in our lives that need to be addressed"

I just pray that time will mend our broken family!!!!!!

[a4a]

Is there not a responsibility for the "person who's needs are not being met" by the other to express those needs instead of " you should have known?

 

This is so so so true!!! Of course you have to express it. Not every person realizes this and does expect their spouse to 'just know'. On the other hand you could express it until you are blue in the face and your spouse will continue to deny your desire or need of them..... lack of sex is a great example of that one for so many men here on LS.

 

 

Is there not a responsibility for the person who feels their SO is not making them happy to look inward and say does this person make me happy or am I not responsible for my own happiness with this person?

 

TRUE AGAIN!! and that is when many people think it is time for a divorce because they realize their spouse is unwilling or unable to meet those needs for some reason. So I can either live like this or move on. Taking on the responsibility means sometimes leaving that spouse.

 

Seems to me, that many here at times, think that the other person is their route to personal joy, where it should be the other way around. Responsibility to oneself is foremost in this, is it not?

 

Absolutley, but in some cases a spouse may totally neglect the R. Or be aware of needs but just not care enough to fulfill them.

 

I've said it before and will keep saying it, if I'm not happy, why? what can I do to make myself truly happy, I sure as hell know it's not depending on someone else to make me happy that is a pipe dream always meant to fail. We owe ouselves happiness but to achieve it, do we not have to take responsibility for ourselves too and not blame the other for not providing it.

 

TRUE AGAIN! But I don't need a man either I choose to have a man in my life, I can be content without one. If I am going to enter a R I will be willing to fulfill and do the work to maintain the R. That is my job and his. I want my partner to feel happy and fulfilled in the R. If I cannot be the best for him why should I stay attached to him and only allow him limited happiness? I should be willing to enhance and make his life even better. Can I ever do enough for him? NO, I always want to do more. Because he is important to me. In return I would like the same treatment or partial return in a manner that also enhances my life. Which in turn makes me want to give him more.

 

Are we not supposed to compliment each other, NOT be responsible for each other.....

 

I agree with this as well..... parasite/host issue.

 

A partner should just Enhance your life, but one partner that continues to fulfill the correct needs of the other does need a return at some point to continue to want to give.

 

I think love tanks or banks is a common term used in this case.....if one spouse is empty the other spouse overflowing, eventually it will come to a blow up or divorce.

[ilmw]

ilmw,

Your hitting pretty close to myself brother.

I too was unhappy with what was going on in my life!! I too also brought my frustrations home with me!! I too didn't know what was going on inside of me!!! and unfotunatally my wife didn't speak up to say "hey honey we have some major problems in our lives that need to be addressed"

I just pray that time will mend our broken family!!!!!!

 

Scary stuff eh?

[dgiirl]

CC, that is why it is never one side's fault. Responsibility falls on both parties. It is our responsibility to ask our partner's what they need, but it's also their responsibilty to tell us what they need. It is our responsibility to listen, and their responsibility to keep saying it until we get it. Vice versa. But you cant force people to act the way we want, so they're allowed to bail when they want.

 

This whole attack on a4a started because she stated that for her, just because you are a good citizen, dont cheat, dont abuse, dont drink, and pay the bills, doesnt mean you will automatically have a successful happy marriage. These ARE basic things for her to even contemplate having a relationship with someone (regardless of gender), and I tend to agree. Yes, one can be appreciative of their spouse because they do work hard, but if they are not spending _any_ time with their spouse, how can you have a relationship? We each have a variety of needs that we want to be met. And just because you meet ONE of those needs really really well, doesnt mean you meet all of the needs. My exh and I worked really damn well. We've been able to accomplish quite a few things at such a young age. And I always appreciated that he did work hard. But at the same time, he never wanted to be around me. So yes he fulfilled one of my needs, but the other he simply refused to meet. How is it possible to have a relationship with someone who doesnt want to be around you? For men, if your wife was a very good housewife, did all the chores and kept the house spotless, that might meet one of your needs, but then she wont sleep with you. Are you telling me that because she kept the house spotless, that you two are going to have a very happy marriage? And i'm sure the reverse could be said too. You might have an amazing sex life, but then she spends all your money and keeps the house filthy. Depending on your needs, you still might not have a successful marriage.

 

I think some of the men on here are attacking a4a simply because they dont want to take any personal responsibility. It's easier to point blame at the person who walked and play victim. You get a ton of sympathy for a while, and get to escape the guilt. It's a lot harder to question yourself and say "hey, maybe i didnt always do the best that I could". I'm not saying all the problems in the relationship were completely your fault. I'm simply saying if you are going to go through all this pain and turmoil, you best get something positive out of it. And to me, being able to learn something and improve yourself is the best way of making that pain right.

[a4a]

Thank you D for pointing out what I was trying to say.

 

A fine example of this is a statement I made to my H a very blunt to the point and open statement:

 

I need you to make me feel like you want me. I need you to show me in a manner in which I understand. (much more added but you get the point)

 

I added at the end:

 

You cannot say that I have not clearly asked for these things and asked for your help in resolving our issues. So if I walk out the door do not be shocked and say "I don't know why she left"....... I am telling you now why I would be leaving. It is now your choice to decide if you want to make our marriage work or not.

 

So far it is working out well.....he was clueless and me beating around the bush with diplomacy did not get through to him.

 

If your wife said that to you what would you say....... I already do enough for you?

[CryingCanuck]

DG I know what you;re saying and I wasn;t trying to minimize my culpability in my marriage, you know from other stuff that I'm blaming myself for things that I know I shouldn't but still can't help it due to my feeling responsible. As far as my speaking out to a4a goes, I'm sorry either I'm dense or something I'm just not getting the message clearly. I'll re-read the posts AGAIN and see where I'm missing her points. All I'm seeing is that a4a in this thread, (I haven;t read any of her others) seems to be saying that us guys ( all of us) are responsible for our wives actions, whether good or bad and that regardless of the circumstances the So (usually the guy) is the problem. look back at the original posts where there is mention of a trained puppy or something like that.. A woman being kept, and that wasn't what I was saying at all. Mw X was never "kept" I encouraged her to get out and do things but she chose not to, I really took exeption to that statement. Anyway I think we've beaten this to death, maybe I'll simply never understand......

You know I'm " only a guy" you know, the little head tells the big one what to do......

[Mz. Pixie]

Do you know how hard (impossible) it is to be totally Honest when Communicating with someone you love and don't want to piss off and possibly loose?

 

So if your H said to you, "Dear I want to try anal sex at least once before I die and if you are unwilling would you mind terribly if I hired a whore?" What if he told you he'd really like to try a threesome with your best friend?

 

Do you tell your H all your deepest, darkest fantasies? Maybe you don't have any. If your H told you any of those things what would your answer be? Stick a fork in his head?

 

My point is those particular items, but do we really know what is deep down inside the other person. Or is there always some level of masking going on where we just aren't sure we want to reveal all of our soul to the other person.

 

I'm not the stick a fork female on this post, that's A.

 

There's a big difference between honesty and just being arrogant and mean to your partner- such as what you're stating above.

 

My husband and I communicated our sexual desires and wishes to each other before marriage. But if he came up with something new he'd like to try I would do my best to meet that need. He'd already done the threesome thing before and he has no need to do it again (his words not mine)

 

But yeah, I expect him to be honest with me. I do not expect to lie to me if I ask him specific questions. If he doesn't like my hair- I'd prefer that he say "You know honey, I liked it better so and so"

 

And you know, you were right when you said that the dating stuff is alot of hard work- but so is marriage!!! Each partner needs to keep up some effort to keep the other interested. Do you not agree?

 

Of course we're going to get comfortable with each other- and you should be- but you could still pursue the person like they were worth the effort. Instead of talking to your friends and clients more respectfully than you do your spouse.

[Moose]

This whole attack on a4a started because she stated that for her, just because you are a good citizen, dont cheat, dont abuse, dont drink, and pay the bills, doesnt mean you will automatically have a successful happy marriage.

NO.....the whole, "attack", started because these things are a, "given" to her.

 

From what we can tell, she's communicated that these things don't hold an ounce of weight for her, nor does it put any, "funds" in her love tank/bank.

 

Granted, these are things that a good husband would naturally practice. There's no doubt about that. But for it to be discarded all together is a whole different ball game, and completely unfair to her husband, regardless if SHE thinks so or not......

 

BUT....as a4a would say, we shouldn't generalize. If this is how she is, it's how she is.....more power to her.....

 

What sets me, (and probably the others), off about the whole deal is her attitude about it, plain and simple. In one breath it's, "I demand, I expect, and no gold stars, I don't need a man, I make my own money, own my own house, horses, yada, yada.... I choose to be in a R", then in the next, "I praise him, I thank him, I do this, and I do that, he doesn't do this, thank me for this, praise me for this"......as if her husband isn't worthy to have her, she's always 2 up on the poor guy cause' she's keeping constant tabs on it.....

 

Agrrevating.....like watching a train wreck....

[dgiirl]

DG I know what you;re saying and I wasn;t trying to minimize my culpability in my marriage, you know from other stuff that I'm blaming myself for things that I know I shouldn't but still can't help it due to my feeling responsible.

 

I know you are taking personal responsiblity for your own actions. That was never a doubt

 

I guess I'm taking this thread a little personal too because all I'm hearing from the guys is because they work and bring home the bacon I should be thankful and happy. I also dont appreciate being called a selfish bitch because I wanted more from my husband. I never knew i was being so demanding because I wanted my husband to actually pay attention to me, to compliment me once in a while, and let me know he wanted to be around me. I dont care how much fricken bacon you bring home, if you ignore me and dont like the sight of me, why are we together? I dont _need_ someone to take care of me. I want someone to want to _be_ with me. There's a big difference.

 

This debate always happens whenever people start focusing too much on gender. Everything that was said about males, could be said about females. And the same the other way. No matter what gender you are, we all want to feel needed, wanted, and appreciated. And once you stop meeting those needs in your partner, they're going to become unhappy and leave. And just because you do the "chores" of the relationship doesnt gaurantee you success in your marriage.

[Moose]

dgiirl, I don't think us males are saying you should be happy when we keep to this list of things the OP wrote out.

 

I do think we get pissed when it's not even considered. We know full well these things aren't going to cover all the bases, just don't count them out completely.....it should matter to you, and mean something to you that we do these things......we know you need more, we really do!!

[flowerpot]

I know you are taking personal responsiblity for your own actions. That was never a doubt

 

I guess I'm taking this thread a little personal too because all I'm hearing from the guys is because they work and bring home the bacon I should be thankful and happy. I also dont appreciate being called a selfish bitch because I wanted more from my husband. I never knew i was being so demanding because I wanted my husband to actually pay attention to me, to compliment me once in a while, and let me know he wanted to be around me. I dont care how much fricken bacon you bring home, if you ignore me and dont like the sight of me, why are we together? I dont _need_ someone to take care of me. I want someone to want to _be_ with me. There's a big difference.

 

This debate always happens whenever people start focusing too much on gender. Everything that was said about males, could be said about females. And the same the other way. No matter what gender you are, we all want to feel needed, wanted, and appreciated. And once you stop meeting those needs in your partner, they're going to become unhappy and leave. And just because you do the "chores" of the relationship doesnt gaurantee you success in your marriage.[/quote

 

dgirl, Thanks for your insight, you have made a very valid point!!!

My XW said the very same thing. She needed someone who wanted to be with her,and at the time I wasn't fulfilling that need the way married people should. I really messed up, but I am learning & growing everyday to obtain what I have taken for granted, in hopes of her ever forgiving me & getting a second chance.

take care, FP

[dgiirl]

dgiirl, I don't think us males are saying you should be happy when we keep to this list of things the OP wrote out.

 

I do think we get pissed when it's not even considered. We know full well these things aren't going to cover all the bases, just don't count them out completely.....it should matter to you, and mean something to you that we do these things......we know you need more, we really do!!

 

Vice versa moose. I dont think any of us females are saying those things are not appreciated at all either. Of course we appreciate them, otherwise we wouldnt be with you in the first place. You often hear women saying he's a great provider, but I'm just not in love anymore. This is often a conflict inside of women who want to leave. The man is clearly meeting one of her emotional needs, but totally neglecting the other.

[Mz. Pixie]

dgiirl, I don't think us males are saying you should be happy when we keep to this list of things the OP wrote out.

 

I do think we get pissed when it's not even considered. We know full well these things aren't going to cover all the bases, just don't count them out completely.....it should matter to you, and mean something to you that we do these things......we know you need more, we really do!!

 

What I said or meant to say originally is that I never use those things as an excuse as to why I shouldn't work on my marriage. I don't know any woman who does, but I have heard my exhusband use that as an excuse, as well as friends' husbands and other men on this board.

 

I've never heard a woman say "Well, I work, I come home everyday, I don't drink too much, or do drugs or hit the bars" as an excuse for not having sex. But yet it was used frequently by my ex when I would bring up I wasn't happy and had needs that were not being met. He would always throw those things out there and to me that meant "Well you better just be thankful for these things- instead of trying to ask for what you want- because I'm the best you're ever going to get"

 

It's like just because he did do those things I should not want any more out of a relationship than that. It wasn't that I didn't do those things myself or that I didn't appreciate him being a good man, I did. It's just that I had other needs that he refused to meet.

 

Realistically, I can get a pet who will be at home when I get home, who won't drink or do drugs, hit the bars and will give me a little affection when I get home. What I want from a marriage is so much more than that- and I'll be glad to give as good as I get as well. There were MANY MANY years that I consistently gave without getting anything in return and I know that does happen at times in any marriage. Yet when you give for years and years and your partner makes no contribution other than to tell you you don't have it that bad because they don't do any of the above, well you can see where the frustration level comes in.

[PWSX3]

A fine example of this is a statement I made to my H a very blunt to the point and open statement:

 

I need you to make me feel like you want me. I need you to show me in a manner in which I understand. (much more added but you get the point)

 

I added at the end:

 

You cannot say that I have not clearly asked for these things and asked for your help in resolving our issues. So if I walk out the door do not be shocked and say "I don't know why she left"....... I am telling you now why I would be leaving. It is now your choice to decide if you want to make our marriage work or not.

 

So far it is working out well.....he was clueless and me beating around the bush with diplomacy did not get through to him.

 

Sorry but some of us guys must just be a little slower or thick headed and it takes the blunt aproach to jump start us.

I remember a certain person on here that had to stick a fork in my head to get me to realize what I was doing and I'm forever greatful for that. I had been going to counsoling for 5 years off and on and I hadn't seen it yet.

Remember guys are fixers and we forget to do the analizing part such as the woman are so good at.