So if a guy is

[Gunny376]

Why men should not marry.

 

All the older guys I know, guys that are 55 and older are telling me the same story; don't do it. It just turns to crap no matter what you do.

 

They'd rather be independent. At best it's a tedious bore. At worst a living hell with financial ruin thrown in for good measure. The problem is that when you're young, you just naturally fall into this mind set where your whole self image is based on how women regard you, and so you spend all your money and energy trying to make yourself acceptable to them. Then later in life the shine wears off and you finally realize that you've wasted yourself on a bunch of crap.

 

Children - "the ultimate human experience"

 

I couldn't even begin to list all of the older folks i know from work or through my family with kids they either don't get along with, are disappointed in, or are so distant as to not even be a factor in each other's lives.

 

 

I'm really skeptical about the idea of children as "the ultimate blessing." How many friends do you have with little or no meaningful contact or relationships with their parents?

 

I would wager the statistic for happy child/parent relations would be as bad, if not worse, than the marriage numbers. Who wants to deal with TWO bitter, unfulfilling relationships?!

 

Marriage is a sham for men. There is no benefit. If you are about to get married, think it over. Don't let your penis do your thinking for you. Don't let your punch-drunk I'm in love euphoria put you on auto-pilot. You will wake up in a hell of a hangover staring at this woman who will control your life.

 

A few years ago I went through a major depression over this until I started talking to all the older guys I knew...and they all said the same thing; "don't do it, it's ****. Even when it's not bad, it's ****". You end up being closely tied to an old woman. Think about that. I can go to Europe or the south seas tomorrow. If I was married I wouldn't have the money and I'd have to ask HER permission. Don't get married unless you are absolutely religiously in love with her. Like carry her sick aged body to the toilet and wipe her *** and be happy to do it kind of love.

 

What I'm saying is that human beings are nasty weak treacherous creatures that are for the most part totally untrustworthy. Experience is my basis for this statement, both mine and others who I know or who have written reliable histories. If you can find a woman to be your companion who is not treacherous, a deceitful little actress, a sly whore or a manipulative nag or a shrieking hag, then you are among the lucky few. Congratulations. I hope your luck continues to hold out.

 

Ok, assume that you will end up divorced and won't see your kids and lose half of your assets, how different is that from being married?

 

Most married guys I know are working their asses off to pay bills, rarely to get to spend time with their families, mediocre or no sex life, and have wives that spend as much of their money as absolutely possible.

 

My problem with marriage isn't a fear of divorce; it is that the whole thing sucks divorce or not.

 

What security is there for men in marriage?

If I cheat on my wife, she gets half my ****

If she cheats on me, she still gets half my ****.

Why the **** should i get married?

 

**** it man, it's easy to get depressed about not being married when we live in a society that constantly feeds us the image of the happy couple. It's one big lie. The happiest person alive is someone who isn't a prisoner dependent on another human being... We only have 80 or so years on this rock to achieve true freedom

 

Very few marriages last nowadays, and even guys older than me are telling me not to even think about it... It's a grossly overrated source of happiness. And for the 80% that do go through divorce, it will financially ruin you for life. Period. You can take your best 10 earning years from say, 35 to 45 and take all the wealth you would have accumulated and flush it down the toilet. Because it will go to her and her lawyer. If it happens naturally and it's good then great, good luck. But the worst thing is to force it, to make gross exertions and ignore all sorts of red lights going off just to be hooked up and "normal". Get some hobbies. Relax. Hang out. Enjoy. Take life as it comes.

 

As men, we all know that a woman's primary objective is to marry. After years of experience I've discovered their most commonly used strategy. here it is:

 

1. Girl pressures guy for marriage.

 

2. Guy delays.

 

3. Girl gradually starts destroying guy's self-esteem and eliminating his friends.

 

4. Guy becomes too weak and too much of a loser to find something better than what he has.

 

5. Girl starts to limit sex. In effect controlling the only good thing in the guy's life.

 

6. Guy is in despair. Capitulates to marriage.

 

Then 5-10 years later the guy is an empty shell of his former self. Girl is a ruthless manipulating machine. Girl divorces loser husband. Girl takes 80% of guy's stuff because the guy is too brain dead to find a good lawyer. Girl lives happily ever after. Guy becomes bald alcoholic who dies of heart attack at 45 years old.

[Flyin in Clouds]

...

Some of us men had good role models, and some of us didn't. You've stated that your DH didn't, I believe that is more often the case than not.

 

rather sad statement on family life if true. But fortunately I think it's not true because most men are decent men, husbands and fathers. Most women are decent women, wives and mothers.

 

You've got to get rid of all that societial and cultural fallacies about what a man really is and is suppose to be, and how he is suppose to act, and feel, and get down to the core of who and what he is as a human being.

And just what would those be? Those fallacies? And that sounds awfully touchy feely for a Marine Gunny. Just what are you saying?

 

Some people are good at planning, some aren't. Some approach life like playing chess, some poker. Some remember birthdays, some don't. Some make a big deal of birthdays, others could care less.

 

Then you've got to get rid of al the crap his Mom and Dad ~ as if most of them ever had a clue.

Fortuantely most do have a clue. I wonder were you got such a negative view of family life?

 

In short you've got to break him down and re-build them from the ground up.

Now would that also apply to women because they didn't have good Mom roll models or decent Mom's and Dad's? So don't all those women need rebuilding from the ground up? And who is going to rebuild them?

 

The truth is there are many rotten woman and rotten men. There are many women that ignore their husbands and many men ignore their wives.

 

And another truth is many women are selfish and bithces. And many aren't. Many men are selfish, and many aren't.

 

Most men think, speak and listen from the minds, while most women think, speak, and listen from their hearts. I suggest that part of what is going on is your speaking and he's not hearing you ( I didn't say he wasn't listening ~ just that the transmitted message isn't getting through)

Yeah, and a4a's husband was speaking to her as well, she just didn't want to accept it as good enough. He doesn't understgand how she wants to be talked to , and she doesn't understand him when he's saying "he's happy" = " I love you". He may be more deaf to her desires, than she to his, but I still think they misunderstand each other.

[burning 4 revenge]

:lmao: LOL that was a bitter blog! I liked it though. Maybe I'll print it and read it like a prayer before I go to sleep each night.

[Flyin in Clouds]

I just started reading "For Women Only- what every woman should know about men" by Shaunti Feldhahn.

 

It's interesting- and very insightful. Explains alot and I'm only through the first several questions.

 

But, but.... all men are unique and different. a4a says so. must be true... (smile...)

 

So how can a book like that apply to all men and women?

[Flyin in Clouds]

yes ending up alone would hurt and be painful for awhile but you too will actually get over it. You make a choice if and when this happens to either be happy or dwell on the pain and hurt. You choose to move on and live your own life to the fullest. ...

 

Or not. Remember we're not all like you a4a.

 

When the pain of living far out weights the pleasure ... what is the point of going on?

[Flyin in Clouds]

Of course he loves me. But not in the manner I NEED HIM TO.

Now he may come home and feed the horses. But to me that is not a matter of showing his love, that is a matter of doing what needs to be done. But in his mind, yes he may be thinking...... I will feed the horses so she doesn't have to because I love her.

 

Becareful. Because if you don't accept his feeding your horse as a significant sing of his love for you one day he won't bother anymore.

 

My daughter is a horse person. Her husband takes care of the horses, but I'm sure he'd rather not have horses at all. But he knows to have his wife he has to take the horse with her. And so he takes care of her horse and if my daughter has half a brain she'll give him full credit for showing his love that way. If she doesn't then I'm sure he wont' bother feeding her horses. Or paying for feed or anything else with the horses.

 

Like a husband that so wants a wife to make love to him but she just does not think it is all that important in her mnd....... but to the H it would mean the world.

 

Sex! Now that is something that is important.

 

Or like my H actually spending quality time with me (not working on a project together)..... and doing so willingly now that he is indeed aware that it is so important to me.

 

As I said, I view all the time I have with my wife as quality time no matter what is it, because I never get enough of it with her. She's been gone all this week, shel'll be home a week, then gone for two week. Never in my wildest nightmare when I got married did I think I'd spend so many nights sleeping alone.

 

my H is really an amazing person in so many respects.

 

Then I suggest Madam, that you be careful not to loose him. Because the warts that he has seem pretty darn small if you'd view the big picture. You've been married just a year. Someone gave me this advise. If something isn't going to matter a hill of beans five years from now don't make a mountain out of it today. And choose your battles carefully.

[a4a]

I'm sure when I say my wife stopped having sex with me every woman on here will blame me for that. I must have done something to cause her to do that. It was my fault. Right a4a? Something I did to mistreat her. Couldn't have been her...

 

What did I ever do to my wife for her to be that mean to me?

 

And yes, I think it is a slap in the face to imply that my wife's actions where my fault.

 

Whoa........see you are just spewing bitterness directed at me and others. Why? I never ever said YOU were cut off because of the way you treated your wife. However I am seeing from your posts here that you are indeed one who is lashing out for no real reason. Highly emotional. Very angry or hurt, projection of anger. Do you do this in real life or are you just venting?

 

Why is self examination a slap in the face? Maybe you suck in bed? Maybe you do not make your wife feel wanted? Maybe you do not treat your wife perfectly? I say maybe....... Nobody lives in your home with you. Your wife could be a complete nutcase or you could indeed be a complete ass to her.

But it never hurts to look at ways that you can improve, that is not a slap in the face.

[a4a]

Becareful. Because if you don't accept his feeding your horse as a significant sing of his love for you one day he won't bother anymore.

 

My daughter is a horse person. Her husband takes care of the horses, but I'm sure he'd rather not have horses at all. But he knows to have his wife he has to take the horse with her. And so he takes care of her horse and if my daughter has half a brain she'll give him full credit for showing his love that way. If she doesn't then I'm sure he wont' bother feeding her horses. Or paying for feed or anything else with the horses.

 

Whoa again totally comparing apples to oranges here again (different species) ....... I pay for all the feed, all the vet work, including for his horses and most of his animals that he had before we were married. I am the one that actually wants less animals so I have some off time.....he wants to keep another horse....so no, him feeding the animals that he asked for, wanted, then relies on me alone to care for 98% of the time is not showing how much he loves me. I guess it would be similar to him buying a boat for his pleasure but I do the upkeep, but if he puts gas in the boat that is showing his love for me? If he/I makes dirty dishes do I/he have to appreciate it if he/I actually puts them in the dishwasher too? That again is a given. I would certainly do that if he were in my life or not.

 

*note/disclaimer: I do not mind feeding and caring for his horses that are here, I look at it like the laundry, just something that has to be done and if I am here I just do it, no big dealio. I do not consider it a way of showing my affection towards him. I do not expect a thank you for feeding or paying for his horse on a daily basis. This is not a scorecard post, but I am just trying to show the reality of the situation.

 

 

 

Sex! Now that is something that is important.

Yes it is! :bunny: grrrrrrr!

 

 

 

As I said, I view all the time I have with my wife as quality time no matter what is it, because I never get enough of it with her. She's been gone all this week, shel'll be home a week, then gone for two week. Never in my wildest nightmare when I got married did I think I'd spend so many nights sleeping alone.

 

That is sad...... sorry to hear that. Have you said anything to her? I wonder if she is content to just be without you for long periods of time.

 

 

 

Then I suggest Madam, that you be careful not to loose him. Because the warts that he has seem pretty darn small if you'd view the big picture. You've been married just a year. Someone gave me this advise. If something isn't going to matter a hill of beans five years from now don't make a mountain out of it today. And choose your battles carefully.

 

Well to me it is a huge ordeal. It will end up being a mountain of beans in five years from now. You cannot ignore a problem and just think it will go away. If your wife cut you off from sex during the first year of M would you just ignore it or deal with it?........ (sex, attention, quality time). ....... Ignore it and in 5 years declare yourself a monk.

[Flyin in Clouds]

Sorry mate, I refuse to read any of your threads. Not only are they long winded, but you came into the middle of this thread with your opening line spewing about how us women are all selfish bitches who want more and more. And you STILL refuse to acknowledge or appologize for the comment even after us women pointed it out to you. So you, of all people, have absolutely NO right to come and tell me that your opinion was only different and not a personal attack when you were the one who started with the name calling.

 

Uh, some women are selfish bitches and you know it. And I don't think I directed that comment to anyone in particular, but to women that demand changes in their H but do not see the plank in their own eye...

 

And of course many women (and men) have very legitimate complaints about their spouse for a whole variety of reasons. And I didn't come into the middle. I've read the whole thread from the begining. and I stand by my first post.

 

As to long winded. Well, sure, but hey read or don't read, your option. but to review

 

dgiirl from your first post...

 

But he strongly believes he treated me like a queen, and not once ever appologized for the treatment. I'm just saying it's a lot more complex. I know I didnt treat my ex very well either. I took the relationship for granted,

 

 

OK, you both took each other for granted.

 

and there are so many things I could have done better. But at the same time, I did a lot of things really well too. I didnt treat him like a king, but man if he treated me like a queen, if he treated me the best I'll ever get from any other guy, well, I'd rather be alone."

 

you didn't treat him like a king, he didn't tread you like a queen. Lovely relationship.

 

and on my first post (no. 60, page 4) I say:

 

"Not enough? Yeah you selfish bytches want more and more and more. No matter what a guy does it's never enough. "

 

If you are not a selfish bytche then why assume the comment applies to you personally? You know women like that exist. If that comment was direct toward anyone it was a4a because she kept demanding changes her H had to make and I wonder if he will ever change enough for her to say, OK, I'll live with that. And isn't a4a being selfish? Of course. She wants changes made to please her. Is she bytching about her H? I'd say she has been. Does she want more and more elaborate "planning". Will she ever say, OK, he's not perfect but I'll keep him anyway. I hope she does. And is it ever OK for us to be selfish bytches? Aren't I guilty of being one? Demanding sex from my wife? Or else? It's selfish of me to want sex and intimacy in our relationship. To be warm and loving instead of being cold and distant. Yeah, I'm just a selfish S.O.B.

 

But the person I really was thinking about being a selfish demanding bytch was my friend's x-wife, my wife's best friend. She wanted it all and then some. She wanted all the expensive stuff and 100% of her husband's time. She wanted the impossible and wasn't satisfied.

 

a4a says to Gunny's original post, that the woman was kept like a pet with a good owner. Well what a cockeye view of how a man that is decent, doesn't have vices, provides for his wife... a4a doesn't want all those things. Fine. But some women do and they insist on having them. They're the bitches. Not all women are like a4a or you dgiirl. It's the cynical view of men that are trying to provide the things some women say they want in order to make them happy and that's like keeping a pet. Maybe... maybe those women want to be kept like a pet. I know some women have this particular kink where they like being lead around by a dog collar on their neck... but I don't think a4a was talking about them. And before we leave the topic of pet, a4a things husbands should be trained like pets. Or so it seems.

 

The point is that a man is doing all the things he think is right, and the woman in his life is totally ungrateful and just spits on all his efforts. For those women (the bitches) nothing is ever enough.

 

This topic of the unappreciated husband is what Dr. Laura's book, Care and Feeding of Husbands is about. A guys does all these things and the wife says "ehh... that was all exepcted. Not enough - do more."

 

If a woman is doing everything she can think of to please her man and treat him like a king but he turns his back on it, how should she feel? If she's a great housekeeper and pays the bills, and does the laundry, cooks the meals, feeds the horses, cuts the grass, paints the house, washes the car, takes out the garage even, and knitts her man a new pair of socks, shouldn't her man just love her to death? Never mind she skipped the one thing he really cared about. Having her be a sex goddess. A vamp. She's too tired at the end of the day to bother with fixing herself up... heck she's done all this other wonderful stuff and he just doesn't appreciate any of it. what a lousy bum.

 

Can you see it works both ways for men and women? Isn't that what women that walk out are saying. Hey you aren't doing the right stuff for me. That's a4a's point.

 

If a guy isn't pay you enough attention or is about to leave the relationship - by cheating or divorce, isn't that saying the same thing? The woman isn't doing the right things? No it isn't. See a4a and Mz P were doing all the things they should and their man still wasn't treating them right. It wasn't their fault. It was his... hmmm...

 

So if a woman is about to cheat or divorce, then the man wasn't doing the right thing was he? But of course he was... according to the guys. It wasn't his fault. It was hers.. hmmmmm.....

 

Maybe my marriage has been a fair tale. Married in 74 after college. Moved to Claifornia, from Ohio where we both grew up. We had a small two bed room apartment. A great couple upstairs our age, newly weds too. We played cars. He dragged me out fishing once (I hate fishing. Just don't see the point.) We loved each other. We spent the weekends exploring the Bay Area. Fisherman's wharf. Napa and wine country. Big Basin (redwoods). Hiked off the trails and made love in the big trees. She loved big trees. Anyway, we went to Yosemite. Hiked to the top of the falls. Kings Canyon. Big Sur, Hearst Castle. Moved to SoCal. Explored the south land. Our daughter was born. She was fun. She has her own daughter now. And our granddaughter looks just like her mother. The wife and I have traveled the world together. Prauge, Berlin, Munich, Paris, London, Rome... Australia. Too many places to list them all.

 

So maybe I don't relate well to these other problem you all have had. I hope you all get on with your lives and relationships. But being demanding... well I'm not sure that's going to fix a relationship long term.

 

I do know my friends wife was a selfish demanding bytch and that killed her marriage. I do know how that ended. So just be careful what you "demand".

[Flyin in Clouds]

There are things that I would like from my W when it comes to sex and she won't do it because she says it tastes bad even though she has never tasted it so how does she know???

 

Ah... swallowing. Now why would you want that? Drink pineapple juice the day before. It's supposed to make it taste better.

 

The thing to ask is if she's not willing to satisfy your desires (is that really a need?) why would you satisfy her desires?

 

And if she's not willing why would she object if you had someone else do that for you? Why does she get the right to deny you what you want, but you have to deliver every last damn thing she wants, on que, on time, everytime.

 

The answer of course is because that's the way it works buddy. She gets what she wants and you can stick in your ear.

 

The bottom line is some women like it, some don't.

 

One woman I know wanted her husband to, but he didn't want to, so she went outside the marrige and found someone to play with ... and got what she wanted.

 

But if you figure out how to get your wife to do it let me know...

[a4a]

Ah... swallowing. Now why would you want that? Drink pineapple juice the day before. It's supposed to make it taste better.

 

The thing to ask is if she's not willing to satisfy your desires (is that really a need?) why would you satisfy her desires?

 

And if she's not willing why would she object if you had someone else do that for you? Why does she get the right to deny you what you want, but you have to deliver every last damn thing she wants, on que, on time, everytime.

 

The answer of course is because that's the way it works buddy. She gets what she wants and you can stick in your ear.

 

The bottom line is some women like it, some don't.

 

:lmao: what if your wife likes it when you let her poop in your mouth?

 

 

 

Same could be for anal sex...... not all women enjoy that or it could be painful. What if your wife asked to shove a dildo up your butt or have you swallow your own sperm? Or for that matter really wanted you to blow another guy and let her watch...... so come on there are some things that just are unreasonable and some that certainly are not.

 

Of course this is a little beyond could you just spend time with me or just make love with me. Now if you married a woman that destests sex..... well ya shouldn't have married her. Just like I am not into hunting so I certainly would not have married a guy that had expectations of me to go shoot animals with him.

 

In the bold letters in your post: are you talking about his wife really or your friends wife, or yours?

Or is this just your thoughts on how the majority of women are? Venting or a real point to make to be helpful to others?

[Flyin in Clouds]

Whoa........see you are just spewing bitterness directed at me and others. Why? I never ever said YOU were cut off because of the way you treated your wife.

 

hmmm...

 

Maybe that is part of the reason she cut you off from sex, wasn't that you?

I think you did write that a4a. The reason I hesitate to mention anything pesonal was I knew people that felt I had "attacked" them would come back at me with stuff like that. I don't mean to attack anyone, even if I use rehtoric that like "selfish bytches" to describe my impression of how someone comes off from what they write.

 

However I am seeing from your posts here that you are indeed one who is lashing out for no real reason. Highly emotional. Very angry or hurt, projection of anger. Do you do this in real life or are you just venting?

I don't see why you read emotion or anger into my posts. I think it is far more your reaction and interpretation that my intent. Stating a position with passion or a long winded explanation doesn't mean I'm angry. And I wondered the same about you and your complaints with H? Just venting?

Why is self examination a slap in the face?

Indeed.

 

Maybe you suck in bed? Maybe you do not make your wife feel wanted? Maybe you do not treat your wife perfectly? I say maybe....... ...

But it never hurts to look at ways that you can improve, that is not a slap in the face.

hmmm... And maybe you suck in bed so your H doesn't feel very compeled to do much planning. A slap in the face? naw, just self examination.

 

Ever time I suggest something to you it was an attack and you had to defend yourself.

 

What is really sad about this hole thread is there are too many guys like gunny's 55 year old blogger that hates marriage. And why? Because women have turned it into pure hell and slavery for men. The 1955 Good Wife Guide. Yeah, partly right and partly wrong. My mother always had dinner for dad. He worked his ass off, she ran the house. But she also planned any social life they had and they were happy. Far happier that the sad cases I read about here. But today we get Rachels and guys that think marriage is nuts. And with Rachels what sane guy would think marriage was a good deal? Women think they should get everything their way and if they don't get it... Oct 31 happens... Marriage is compromise. Nobody gets all they want. Marriage is taking it easy, not making it hard. Marriage is accepting each others faults, hurts and neglectfulness and loving each other inspite of all that. But naw, you gotta get what you deserve and need or else ... But today marriage isn't a good deal. For anyone apparently. And that's sad. And dangerous. Family has always been the bedrock of our civilization. And it's threatened. Half of all marriages end in divorce? Why? And the kids from those broken homes (and they are broken in every sense of the word) end up perpetuating and accelerating the divorce rate because they never had good role models. Being from "blended family" is now the norm. If there is any family to be from at all that is. My parents generation wasn't like that at all. At least not in our town. Nor my grandparents generation? What changed? Women's lib? Great. Women are now free... hallelujah. Progress at destroying families and life long commitment at last. Look at a4a. Afraid to commitment 100%. Prenup. Seperate properties, seperate houses, seperate well just about everything his and hers. What is "yours" - what do you both own - jointly? Anything? And why would a guy want to give it his all to this "marriage" when you aren't both willig to commit everything you have to each others care and keeping? Trust? Emotional commitment? But I guess you are right a4a. Since the odds are against you, 50% of marriages ending in divorce it would be foolish to make a total commitment to each other.

 

I wonder if Gunny can dig a list of requirements today's young men have for potential mates.

 

1. she's a virgin (ha... not too many virgin brides anymore, eh... )

2. well at least she was never a porn star...

3. she's disease free

4. she knows how to cook

5. she knows how to be a slut in the bedroom or is willing to learn

6. she's not a complete bimbo like Jessica Simpson, or Paris (gag)

7. she actually knows what transendentalism is.

8. she has at least heard of quantum mechanics

9. she can wear a mean "little black dress"

10. doesn't talk back

11. addresses me as master

12. is not a vegitarian

13. doesn't belong to PETA

14. doesn't mind if her b/f / future H goes hunting, fishing, or golfing

...

[Flyin in Clouds]

Whoa again totally comparing apples to oranges here again (different species) ....... I pay for all the feed, all the vet work, including for his horses and most of his animals that he had before we were married.

 

Sorry, I thought you had 18 horses and he had one that you got for him. You are circuit rider. anyway it doesn't matter.

 

 

That is sad...... sorry to hear that. Have you said anything to her? I wonder if she is content to just be without you for long periods of time.

 

It's the job. It pays the bills. And she gets to see our daughter living on the east coast more frequently... And the travel comes and goes in spurts. this month is bad, next is only one week out the month.

 

If your wife cut you off from sex during the first year of M would you just ignore it or deal with it?........ (sex, attention, quality time). ....... Ignore it and in 5 years declare yourself a monk.

 

Sure I'd deal with it. But I also consider any time I spent with her "quality" time because she was there - with me - together. That is all that mattered to me. It didn't matter what we did. Well -- I'd prefer certain things over others... but I didn't say hey this time doesn't count because we are doing grocery shopping together. No, we were planning meals together. We cook for parties together. When we are together life is good. It's when we are apart that life sucks.

 

I'd be real happy on a dessert island with her.

[a4a]

Uh, some women are selfish bitches and you know it. And I don't think I directed that comment to anyone in particular, but to women that demand changes in their H but do not see the plank in their own eye...

 

Plank?..... like: Yarr' walk the plank you limey?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

you didn't treat him like a king, he didn't tread you like a queen. Lovely relationship.

 

those in glass houses should not throw stones..... your absent wife and sexless marriage (or at one time) shows your R is not so lovely either is it?

 

and on my first post (no. 60, page 4) I say:

 

 

 

If you are not a selfish bytche then why assume the comment applies to you personally? You know women like that exist. If that comment was direct toward anyone it was a4a because she kept demanding changes her H had to make and I wonder if he will ever change enough for her to say, OK, I'll live with that. And isn't a4a being selfish? Of course. She wants changes made to please her.

 

No not selfish at all just asking for him to show me that he cares in a manner in which I understand. Just as I do my best to show him I care in a manner that matters to him. Not selfish at all. Perhaps you are attempting to validate or find reason why you feel so alone and need to think you are ok if your wife is indeed neglecting you and you are so weak (could not survive without her) that even the slightest crumb she throws you makes you elated.

Perhaps you are a doormat indeed and maybe very angry because of it but too weak and afraid to address your problems with your wife? Your marriage does not sound exactly like a fairytale at this point...... sounds like you are really lacking quality time and sex maybe still?

 

Like I said if he could meet 33% of my needs I would be thrilled. And indeed he is doing quite well at reaching this now.

 

 

 

 

Maybe... maybe those women want to be kept like a pet. I know some women have this particular kink where they like being lead around by a dog collar on their neck... but I don't think a4a was talking about them. And before we leave the topic of pet, a4a things husbands should be trained like pets. Or so it seems.

 

Yes some women love to be kept or have the desire to have a man pay the bills and that is of the utmost importance or a need. Some like to be dominated as well.

Good for them, I hope they get their needs met. I hope their H's are happy doing those things for them...... just not my cup of tea or every womens as you state.

 

Training a man would involve things like withholding sex, or only meeting or denying his expectations and desires when his behavior meets your demands?......... no I do not do that. I bring it right to the table and let him decide how he would like to react or participate..... that is not training really.

Although proper communication is a form of training or a good part of it.... most important part maybe. hummmmm.

 

The point is that a man is doing all the things he think is right, and the woman in his life is totally ungrateful and just spits on all his efforts. For those women (the bitches) nothing is ever enough.

 

No the point could be that the woman/man says I want you to understand that these are my needs and I would so appreciate it if you could meet them, and the person does nothing about it. That is not spitting on his efforts that is a matter of the person not knowing, caring, or trying to meet the others needs.

 

 

 

If a woman is doing everything she can think of to please her man and treat him like a king but he turns his back on it, how should she feel? If she's a great housekeeper and pays the bills, and does the laundry, cooks the meals, feeds the horses, cuts the grass, paints the house, washes the car, takes out the garage even, and knitts her man a new pair of socks, shouldn't her man just love her to death? Never mind she skipped the one thing he really cared about. Having her be a sex goddess. A vamp. She's too tired at the end of the day to bother with fixing herself up... heck she's done all this other wonderful stuff and he just doesn't appreciate any of it. what a lousy bum.

 

Your right, she sucks! Because she won't bother to meet his needs at all. But she only really sucks (no pun intended) if her H made it clear to her that it is one of his needs and she chooses to totally deny him. A clear statement that says " I don't care".

 

 

I do know my friends wife was a selfish demanding bytch and that killed her marriage. I do know how that ended. So just be careful what you "demand".

 

*are you sure you know the whole story about your friend? I am sure he had his faults perhaps some or many that were not revealed to you.

 

You are not getting the point at all. The demand/ultimatum is not given when you wake up one day out of the blue. "if you do not buy me a new car I am leaving you today" Now that would be unreasonable as hell.

 

After you ask, beg, plead, beat the hell out of yourself to see where you are wrong, bust your own ass trying harder to please your spouse more so maybe they will reciprocate on your clearly communicated needs, and they choose to still not react.

 

You have a choice then...... either walk out without a word, or tell them enough is enough, once you have exhausted other ways of telling them to "please meet my needs in a manner that I see as you showing me you care".

 

Demands or ultimatums are to be reserved as the last life ring to save a marriage. You cannot force someone to bend to an ultimatum either..... it is a choice...... either treat me in a manner in which I need and expect or I will leave you...... your choice.

 

Now if my H wants me he can try to meet those needs, if he does not wish to bother then he can choose not to. I can choose to go without my needs being met or move on with my life. Choice......there are no guns to heads here. And there is no reason besides ignorance why a spouse should not want to meet those needs....... and if ignorance is present it is indeed the fault of the spouse who has not clearly communicated their reasonable needs.

 

I hold no power over him. He will not burn in hell if we divorce, he will not die if I leave........it is choice. His choice to meet my needs or allow us to split. He actually is the one in complete power here. I cannot force him to do anything. I can only tell him that without this I will not stay with him. Real life consquences of him not meeting my needs...... I currently meet his needs, (hs words) but the shoe could be on the other foot of course. And needs/desires may change with time as well. It is my job to attempt to meet his needs to the very best of my ability and to want to find out what his needs are.

[dgiirl]

a4a, despite all the headaches you are receiving on this thread, I commend you for doing what you are doing. It takes a lot of courage and strength and commitment to actually speak up for what you want in order to save your marriage. Those who are currently in a marriage are quick to say that you should just accept your spouse no matter what. Unfortunately, that does not always work.

 

As I've already admitted, my marriage was not the best. I know very well the mistakes I made in my marriage. I was young, naive, inexperienced, and was not fully prepared for it. But you know, I accepted my husband the way he was. When we first started living together, he told me that he could not be affectionate with me unless it lead to sex, it was too difficult for him. So I denied that need in me, and tried to accept what he needed. But the less he was affectionate with me outside, the less I was affectionate with him inside the bedroom. On top of this, he made it very clear he didnt need me for anything else. I truely believed that marriage was about sharing our lives together, completely, depending on one another. In the beginning, I tried to be a loving wife. I was a horrible cook, and he knew he could cook better than I, so he insisted on cooking. He also insisted on buying the groceries. He also insisted on managing all the money and paying the bills. He organized our accounts into mine and his. I then freely gave him access to all my accounts. I never had access to any of his accounts. When he was sick, I would try to make him something, which he always refused, telling me i didnt know what i was doing. I would buy him things, and he never appreciated it. It was always wrong. So I would start to ask him what would make him happy, and the fact that i ASKED him was also wrong. I wanted to spend time with one another, and any of the activities I enjoyed, he would not participate in unless it was something he wanted. He spent a lot of time on the computer playing games. In the beginning, i would ask him to stop playing and he asked me to join him instead. So i even started playing games, just so I could spend time with him. It was always too hard to go back home and visit my family and friends, yet he wanted to visit his parents every single weekend. He made plans for our social life without even telling me until the actual day. And when I asked him to tell me beforehand, I was made to feel guilty and he would start telling people "I have to ask the boss". And dont even get me started on this whole teddybear thing. The first time I bought lingerie, I was told I was selfish for buying myself clothes. That was extremely humiliating for me. He would often take inventory on how fit I was. I was never told that I was pretty, desired, or wanted, either by words or tokens of affection. And I accepted it all.

 

And then he comes home, at 9pm on valentines day (which we've never celebrated), watches an hour of tv with me, then turns to me and says he wants a divorce. He denies there's another woman until a few days later. But before he admits any of this, he tells me how selfish I am. How all I've done is take and take from him, and how all he's done is give and give to me. How I hurt people without even knowing it, it's just who i am. And how he hasnt learned one single thing from me, and that he's become a worse person because of me. And being the noble man he is, he offered to stay with me for one week to teach me how to live on my own.

 

Did I sleep with my husband? Not as often as he wanted. And I felt guilty and bad about that. I'm ashamed about that. But I didnt sleep with him because I felt like crap around him, and he made me feel like crap because I wasnt sleeping with him. Over the years we fed off each other, and it's completely unclear to me when it all started. But he did confess to me after our separation that 6 months into living together, he wanted out. He just never had the strength to tell me. And 6 months into our relationship, this all started. And during the later years, I started to realize something was wrong. I tried to talk to him about it, and he just reassured me everything was fine, or got really offended I'd suggest such a thing. After he left, I asked him why he didnt say anything, and he told me that I didnt do enough. That asking those questions wasnt enough, i needed to do more. And when I told him that atleast I asked him, he didnt do anything, his response was he tried to make me happy, he'd buy me chocolate. He bought me chocolate bars, and that was his contribution to a happy marriage???

 

So please, dont go telling me that just because a husband works hard and doesnt cheat the wife should be grateful. Because I was. I accepted him for who he was. I made everything he did ok. And this is what I got.

[a4a]

Sorry, I thought you had 18 horses and he had one that you got for him. You are circuit rider. anyway it doesn't matter.

 

No he already had a full house of animals.... it is he that begs me to never allow a horse to leave.

 

 

 

 

It's the job. It pays the bills.

So she is the breadwinner and is meeting one of your needs?

 

 

Sure I'd deal with it. But I also consider any time I spent with her "quality" time because she was there - with me - together. That is all that mattered to me. It didn't matter what we did. Well -- I'd prefer certain things over others... but I didn't say hey this time doesn't count because we are doing grocery shopping together. No, we were planning meals together. We cook for parties together. When we are together life is good. It's when we are apart that life sucks.

 

See how differently people see things, and that is great for you. But not all people see it your way.

 

And don't blame the entire problems of the world on women and them going outside of the home to work. Perhaps many women would choose to stay at home if a man could indeed actually pay the bills? Or maybe men could stay home if just one person could afford to pay the bills in a M? That is not reality any more for the majority of the population. And believe it or not some women just don't get a sense of satifaction from cooking or making a toilet sparkle. So sorry that women want to also feel satisfied with their life.

 

Since the odds are against you, 50% of marriages ending in divorce it would be foolish to make a total commitment to each other.

 

Yep 50% of all marriages..... prenup or not, religious people or not, race, I wonder what the stats are on that. And you know a prenup is a hell of a lot more than saying this is mine this is yours. It also protects my business. My business which will go on far after I am dead. I have a responsiblity to others to protect that.

 

I so have to wonder why making your point and attacks is so necessary for you to do to me? Am I the best example for the cause of the failure of the american family unit?..... well not really...... no kids here, no desire for them. So I am not a good example at all for that.

 

I could swear you are Moose but his wife apprently does not work so I guess not.

 

Amazing how zoned in people can become and have the need to tell others that their choices are wrong. Perhaps wrong for you but very right for me indeed. My choice has no personal effect on you, yet you continue to tell me how terrible I am.

[SmoochieFace]

Hey Gunny, I take it you're a big fan of MGTOW?

 

I've read that stuff before. Too hilarious!

[a4a]

 

hmmm... And maybe you suck in bed so your H doesn't feel very compeled to do much planning. A slap in the face? naw, just self examination.

 

No it is not a slap in the face. It could be true. Thus you spend a great amount of time thinking and asking " what could I be doing wrong to cause this reaction".

 

That is the first step to resovling any conflict with any person, or for that matter solving the most basic of problems in life.

[Gunny376]

I believe everyone here has made some good solid and valid points, and I can see the case for each "argument" (as in debate ~ court of law).

 

Every coin has two sides, and a4a, on one side can come across as a strong, intelligent, assertive, self-empowered, self validated woman who knows what she needs and wants in life. Some people in some circles would ~ could call that a bitch. I wouldn't. I would rather be with a woman who speaks up for herself and speaks her mind and knows what she wants, than one that doesn't. One that not will but can tell me the difference between the way it is and the way she needs it to be. At least then I can make the decision weather I can pony up or not.

 

Flying In Clouds

 

You error in trying to figure me out ~ especially through the forumn. People (especially liberal, naive, shelter, civilian types) have a hard time figuring me out, and understanding me. Most oftentimes than not I've been desribed as complex. Most of what I've been posting to this thread has been playing devil's advocate to both sides of the discussion. The 1955 blog might seem ideal, but in light of 2006 its not practical, let alone realistic. In the 60's, 70's women got mad as hell about the status quo and there's no going back to "Leave It To Beaver" So iits left up to men to adapt and overcome. Same as women. It sounds as though you wife and you have done very well in this particular area.

 

You do come across to me as one of those "Yea, but,............." kind of guys, (not to say you are ~ just that you come across this fourmn to me as such). That is to say, to and for everything someone posts, your response is some sort of "Yea, but,........................."

 

Still I do appreciate your in-sight and what you've brought to this thread.

[Gunny376]

 

I wonder if Gunny can dig a list of requirements today's young men have for potential mates. ...

 

1. Keeps fridge stocked with beer, bar stocked with whisky, pantry stocked with snacks

2. Willing to have daily wild monkey sex

3. Leaves me alone for hours to play my X-Box / PS2

4. Smiles and keeps mouth shut

 

This is the long list!

[a4a]

1. Keeps fridge stocked with beer, bar stocked with whisky, pantry stocked with snacks

2. Willing to have daily wild monkey sex

3. Leaves me alone for hours to play my X-Box / PS2

4. Smiles and keeps mouth shut

 

This is the long list!

 

those are part of my 'MUST HAVES! TO EVEN START TO CONSIDER A RELATIONSHIP' requirements of a man.

 

Add on well endowed to that list too.

 

H was yapping at me reading a horse tack catalog last night while I was trying to watch TV.... So maybe 4. should be moved to the #1 position.

 

Ah he was cute and all excited about the stuff in the catalog.... I really did not mind..... but shoot I missed half my movie. yak yak yak yak yak.

[CryingCanuck]

Hey gun's

 

Buddy you forgot redneck LOL remember what I originally thought?

 

Anyway this thread has served it's purpose and maybe more..... The original statement inthe thread has been totally lost...

 

Maybe Gun's think up another, I'm sure you can, Icould too but thenI would have to take the blame for it going south.....

 

 

CC

[a4a]

Hey gun's

 

Buddy you forgot redneck LOL remember what I originally thought?

 

Anyway this thread has served it's purpose and maybe more..... The original statement inthe thread has been totally lost...

 

Maybe Gun's think up another, I'm sure you can, Icould too but thenI would have to take the blame for it going south.....

 

 

CC

 

funny I don't think it went all that far off topic at all.... If a man does a,b, and c why is that not enough? was indeed the topic/question. Or was the thread just for men to post "yeah buddy, I know, I did it all and she still left?"

[Gunny376]

A decent guy, doesn't gamble, doesn't do drugs, isn't an alcholic, doesn't run around on his wife, isn't on drugs, goes to work everyday, dosren't put his own interest in hunting, fishing, other hobbies and male friends before his wife, puts a roof over her head, provides her with medical and dental coverage, food in her mouth, a roof over her head, a bed to sleep in, clothes to wear, not to mention jewelry on her neck, fingers, and wrist and ankles ~ is what an azzhat?

 

I can't figure this equation out?

 

My original intent was to create a dialog, so that I could learn more about what it takes to make a marriage work, because I know from personal experience that the above wasn't, isn't, and will never be enough.

 

If the above is all that you've got going for you in your game, you might as well go ahead and grab the bat bag, close up the concession stand, turn out the lights, hit the showers and head for the house. The game is over before you even step up to the plate!

 

The personal attacks were un-fortunate, un-necessary, and un-called for.

 

I have to admitt, this thread took an un-forseen course. But, I did find it very informative especially from the ladies. A4A espeically, (I don't think your a selfish, bitch that can't be pleased nor satisfied BTW ~ just a strong, assertive, independent woman who knows what she wants and needs, and isn't afraid to verbalize that. Your insight helped me a lot, and prior to your posting on this thread ~ and going into it would have been a different story.)

[a4a]

My original intent was to create a dialog, so that I could learn more about what it takes to make a marriage work, because I know from personal experience that the above wasn't, isn't, and will never be enough.

 

If the above is all that you've got going for you in your game, you might as well go ahead and grab the bat bag, close up the concession stand, turn out the lights, hit the showers and head for the house. The game is over before you even step up to the plate!

 

The personal attacks were un-fortunate, un-necessary, and un-called for.

 

I have to admitt, this thread took an un-forseen course. But, I did find it very informative especially from the ladies. A4A espeically, (I don't think your a selfish, bitch that can't be pleased nor satisfied BTW ~ just a strong, assertive, independent woman who knows what she wants and needs, and isn't afraid to verbalize that. Your insight helped me a lot, and prior to your posting on this thread ~ and going into it would have been a different story.)

 

Well Gunny I owe you an apology for getting suckered into a pissing match. But I am not one to sit there and take a hit without considering at least a nice tap back in return. But still sorry, I failed to take the high road.

 

And I am hurt, sad, but I will be damned if I will just let my M go down the tubes that easy by keeping my mouth shut and ending up resentful and hateful pretending to be happy 5 years or 15 years from now. Life is too short and if you can get what you desire out of life only a fool does not try.

I have a responsibility to say why I am not happy and give my H the chance to remedy it. He also has the right know and have a partner that is not pretending that all is well.

 

Maybe I can be a bitch from time to time but hell I am only human too. I do know what I need and what I want. But for the life of me I still cannot understand why so many people find that so offensive and wrong.