Nobel Prize

[blind_otter]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both willing and able?

Then why is there evil?

Is he neither willing, nor able?

Then why call him God?

 

Epicurus 3rd Century B.C.

 

My point is, God would not have the same concept of "evil" that we do, beacuse we are finite, linear beings. God is not finite or linear. By definition. I am saying that human beings could never, ever comprehend the actions of a being like God because that would be like ants trying to comprehend the cognitive process of a human being. We simply lack the capacity.

 

That's why we have faith.

 

Laugh if you want, b4r, the deep emptiness and sadness that comes from lack of faith is reflected in your heart. I have felt the hand of God, many times. So I can't deny God, not any more.

 

It aint the parts of the Bible that I don't understnad that bother me.

It's the parts I do understand.

 

Mark Twain

 

Oh come on, don't throw that one out there. That's intellectually lazy. The bible is clearly a reflection of the society and the times in which it was created. So are Buddhist scriptures. So are any religious scriptures. I have no idea why ostensibly intelligent people keep demanding a literal interpretation.

[alphamale]

The concepts of God and Religion are such a crock of bulloney its not even funny.

[ThumbingMyWay]

My point is, God would not have the same concept of "evil" that we do, beacuse we are finite, linear beings. God is not finite or linear. By definition. I am saying that human beings could never, ever comprehend the actions of a being like God because that would be like ants trying to comprehend the cognitive process of a human being. We simply lack the capacity.

 

That's why we have faith.

 

Laugh if you want, b4r, the deep emptiness and sadness that comes from lack of faith is reflected in your heart. I have felt the hand of God, many times. So I can't deny God, not any more.

 

 

 

Oh come on, don't throw that one out there. That's intellectually lazy. The bible is clearly a reflection of the society and the times in which it was created. So are Buddhist scriptures. So are any religious scriptures. I have no idea why ostensibly intelligent people keep demanding a literal interpretation.

 

I have felt him too....and I cannot deny him either.....

 

 

and BO...I find you more interesting everytime I read your posts....

 

 

b4r: read that book I PM'ed you about. I really think you will find it very interesting....

[Great Gazoo]

The concepts of God and Religion are such a crock of bulloney its not even funny.

 

You know I will agree with you part ways. When I think of god to me its more like nature and the cycle of life not religion. Its not god is here to run my life and yours. To me the thought of god gives me some faith to get through the hard times. It makes me realize that there is more to life than what we see.

[Ariadne]

The bible is clearly a reflection of the society and the times in which it was created.

 

The bible is a crazy book.

 

Ariadne

[blind_otter]

The bible is clearly a reflection of the society and the times in which it was created.

 

The bible is a crazy book.

 

Ariadne

 

So is "The Tao of Recovery" but somehow I got shanghai'd into reading that pile of crap.

 

Personally I think the bible is beautiful. A moving work of art, to be sure -- a collection of the stories of an entire people, one might argue those stories were brought together in an effort to combat greater forces not under the control of the Israelites, the fact that they were forced to disburse over the land, and were forcibly re-settled away from their homeland.

 

IME all religious texts are just utterly fascinating. So many humans distract themselves with the material world, with the minutea of daily activities. They never stop to explore the infinite. The massive array of spiritual and philosophical knowledge that does nothing but humble a seeker. I love having insight into the spiritual understanding of other individuals.

 

It's all so beautiful.

[Ariadne]

Hi,

 

So is "The Tao of Recovery" but somehow I got shanghai'd into reading that pile of crap.

 

Well, I haven't read that book so I can't say.

 

Personally I think the bible is beautiful. A moving work of art, to be sure

 

But I have read the bible (since I went to a Catholic HS) and to me is the most bizarre crazy book ever. I can't believe people read that.

 

But, you can say is a work of art. I can't argue with aesthetics.

 

Ariadne

[bluetuesday]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

 

no. god is not willing to prevent evil. that's a popular misconception borne of a lack of understanding about the nature of god.

 

epicurus missed this crucial point and built a tidy philosophy on a complete misunderstanding.

 

the reason god is not willing to prevent evil is multi-faceted. but put simply, if god prevented evil you would be in chains. we all would. we would be prevented from thinking a thought that was out of alignment with the perfect will of god. we would be prevented from doing a deed that was out of alighnment with the perfect will of god. we would not be free to learn from our mistakes. we would be puppets with no minds of our own. do you think that is preferable to being able to witness evil and being given the opportunity to fight to overcome it?

 

the fact that god is not willing to prevent evil means you get to be evil if you want to, for a time. it also means you get to learn how to be godly.

 

so i am much more interested in the question, is b4r willing to prevent evil?

[ThumbingMyWay]

no. god is not willing to prevent evil. that's a popular misconception borne of a lack of understanding about the nature of god.

 

epicurus missed this crucial point and built a tidy philosophy on a complete misunderstanding.

 

the reason god is not willing to prevent evil is multi-faceted. but put simply, if god prevented evil you would be in chains. we all would. we would be prevented from thinking a thought that was out of alignment with the perfect will of god. we would be prevented from doing a deed that was out of alighnment with the perfect will of god. we would not be free to learn from our mistakes. we would be puppets with no minds of our own. do you think that is preferable to being able to witness evil and being given the opportunity to fight to overcome it?

 

the fact that god is not willing to prevent evil means you get to be evil if you want to, for a time. it also means you get to learn how to be godly.

 

so i am much more interested in the question, is b4r willing to prevent evil?

 

I agree. its called freewill. he gave us freewill....another attribute of being made in HIS image. The freedom to choose....right or wrong.

 

He gave us the rules...and now its up to us. We didnt do so well...so he gave us his only Son......and if you believe in him...you shall recieve eternal life in heaven. If you dont believe....you still get eternal life....but not with God.

 

God wont stop crisis in the world....that is up to us. God wont stop war....we need to. God wont stop hunger...we need to. God wont stop murder....we need to.

 

He depends on us as much as we depend on Him.....

[konfused]

I agree. its called freewill. he gave us freewill....another attribute of being made in HIS image. The freedom to choose....right or wrong.

 

If HIS image is masculine, half the world is not technically made in his image.

 

 

There's some great research into the area of reciprical altruism that provides a foundation for morality's development. In essence, it states that being good to you neighbor provides you with a better probability of surviving. The Golden Rule is not necessarily some selfless, sacrificial ordainment from Jesus. It belonged to Mother Nature long before.

 

Back to the Big Bang. It's a safe assumption that at a certain time in the past, say 15 million years ago, all the galaxies were closer together and may even have occupied a single point. It's says nothng about what was happening a nanosecond before that certain time. It is considered time zero as far as measuring time goes. We refer to it as THE Universe because we have yet to discover any others. As soon as we do, the proper phrasing will become OUR Universe. I think I just heard a ship full of missionaries launching.

[bluetuesday]

We didnt do so well...so he gave us his only Son......and if you believe in him...you shall recieve eternal life in heaven. If you dont believe....you still get eternal life....but not with God.

 

it's not personal TMW, but after having been there and come out the other side, i now find it so obvious that this can't be the case.

 

to believe in a god we can neither explain nor understand only to thrust a wholly comprehensible and simplistic black and white rule about god in the form of who gets to go to heaven seems such a blatant juxtaposition that you'd think more people saw through it.

 

the narrow path, by definition, is unlikely to be carrying the broadest section of society - by that i mean people who follow a worldly religion.

 

god exists. most of the rest we have made up ourselves.

 

but i digress. this thread is not about that.

 

b4r i forgot to mention. the big bang theory doesn't preclude the notion of 'first cause'. it only attempts to clarify what happened in the moments after the bang.

 

what science fails to address is what caused the bang in the first place. yet science accepts the notion of cause and effect. so what was the cause of the effect that was the big bang? there. i've asked you a question science cannot answer. but they don't give out nobel prizes for asking hard questions, do they?

 

if they did i could have one for asking why people think science has all the answers when scientists don't know what 95% of the universe is even made of.

[burning 4 revenge]

The difference between science and religion BT is that science doesn't pretend it can answer that question. To pretend is unscientific.

[alphamale]

no. god is not willing to prevent evil. that's a popular misconception borne of a lack of understanding about the nature of god.

and i'm sure you are much more privvy to the "nature" of God than everyone else, BT....

[quankanne]

It always strikes me when incredibly intelligent people surrender completely to irrational emotion when it comes to the subject of their "God".

 

I think y'all are trying to equate intellect with spirituality when, even if they both dwell in the same person, are two completely different ways of seeing things. Intellectually, you use that information that you can "grasp" (measure with the five senses), so it's hard to see how spirituality taps into a whole other sense ... one that's visceral. Because they are different doesn't make them mutually exclusive.

 

The difference between science and religion BT is that science doesn't pretend it can answer that question.

 

dear, the difference between science and faith is that one readily places its trust in what it can be explained, while the other trusts even though it cannot easily find explanation.

[alphamale]

dear, the difference between science and faith is that one readily places its trust in what it can be explained, while the other trusts even though it cannot easily find explanation.

maybe...but the computer you use every day was created by science, not by faith.

[TheSilentType]

Those quotes by Epicurus and Polybius are right on the money. This is the type of wisdom that existed before organized religion manipulated its way into the world.

 

I agree. its called freewill. he gave us freewill...

 

Freewill....upto the point when it decides to send you to hell for not kissing its ass....I mean believing in it.

 

The fact of the matter is that whether there is a god or not, it shouldn't mean much to anyone. All you can do is try to live your life and be as much as a good person as is possible in this wicked world.

[burning 4 revenge]

 

so i am much more interested in the question, is b4r willing to prevent evil?

 

I believe evil in this context doesn't only refer to behavior, but suffering in general. And of course B4R would be willing to prevent it.

[axisdenied]

This experiment deserves recognition. Anybody who is inclined to believe that the discovery of quantum fluctuations did not drop out of a "hard" line of questioning must really know the details of modern experimentation. If this is the case, feel free to contact me and clue me in to what is so simplistic. Last I heard, Heisenberg said that it was a near impossibility to see submicroscopic particles travelling at relativistic speeds popping in and out of existence all the time. But that is just my perspective as an experimental physicist.

 

On the question of science vs religion: why the versus? Last year when the idea that science could be redefined as "anything logical" (re: intelligent design) came unto the political scene, members of my community were infuriated because the "anything logical" definition does not have to be based on a natural (observable) premise (which is what makes science such a powerful predictive tool). Unfortunately, many misconstrued this to be a debate between atheism and theism. On behalf of the science community, this is not the case. The god question never came up in Introduction to Quantum Mechanics, and the origin of reality is never discussed as we all know it is a rather fruitless persuit within the constraints of the scientific method.

 

Oh yeah, and Re: Mathematics: the language of concise logic is a powerful tool for scientists, but in its pure form answers no questions. It must be applied. Do note that no Nobel Prize is awarded to pure mathematicians.

[burning 4 revenge]

I don't understand your first paragraph Axisdenied. I had to drop out of a repiratory therapy major once, because I couldn't pass Physics for Allied Health Students at the community college.

[bluetuesday]

and i'm sure you are much more privvy to the "nature" of God than everyone else, BT....

 

i am not more privvy, as you say.

 

i am just willing to spend more time than you asking the question.

 

and when answers come i'm therefore more equipped to discern them.

[bluetuesday]

I don't understand your first paragraph Axisdenied. I had to drop out of a repiratory therapy major once, because I couldn't pass Physics for Allied Health Students at the community college.

 

it's aimed at me, b4r. he or she is saying the scientists wouldn't have found out what they know about quantum fluctuations if they hadn't asked hard questions.

 

and then something about heisenberg.

[burning 4 revenge]

He depends on us as much as we depend on Him.....

Oh, I missed this earlier. Now that I can agree with.

[Tony T]

Two astro-physicists were awarded the Nobel Prize today for an experiment that proved the existence of variations in microwave radiation, or "cosmic ripples" that dated the big bang to 15 billion years ago. Stephen Hawking himself called it the greatest experiment conducted in science.

 

I'm wondering if the physics community is essentially convinced that the big bang has been proven ,why do people still persist in their belief in a personal and moral God? Isn't the closest thing we have to God the cold and constant laws of mathematics that seem to be the governing principles of all things?

 

Science has shown us where we come from. It isn't heartwarming, but there it is. Why all the ignorance?

 

The Big Bang was an act of God, just like hurricanes and who wins the lottery. I think God acts in mysterious ways but the job always gets done.

 

I'm just glad we don't have to watch out for Big Bangs constantly and that they don't affect our homeowners insurance.

 

Frankly, I don't think our creator anticipated that some people on one of the few inhabited planets would start questioning Him and His ways. Actually, it's only in recent times that this has happened since thousands of years ago people were mostly concerned about surviving until the next day. Millions of people in various parts of the world, incidentally, still have that concern. Their only thoughts of Big Bang is food hitting the bottom of their stomach.

 

Anyway, how we got here would be nice to know...but we have to keep in mind that we ALL have to leave one day and afterwards the answer won't make a lot of difference. It's just nice to be here and soak up the joy and not spend a great deal of time contemplating how it all came about. If the answer shows up in The National Enquirer or The Star, fine. Otherwise, let's just be happy.

[Guest]

and the origin of reality is never discussed as we all know it is a rather fruitless persuit within the constraints of the scientific method.

 

I *love* that the very scientists that atheists revere as Gods and count on to back them up in their 'scientific proof there is no God' are the people who completely comprehend that the scientific method is indeed too constrained to deal with many of these issues.

 

Sadly, it's the folks who deem themselves so 'intellectual' that they believe themselves able to definitively state that science does have all the answers who betray themselves as not.

 

B4R, maybe if you'd passed physics you'd have more reverence for how little humans will ever be capable of understanding.

 

It's just nice to be here and soak up the joy

 

Amen

[blind_otter]

I believe evil in this context doesn't only refer to behavior, but suffering in general. And of course B4R would be willing to prevent it.

 

According to the Shakyamuni Buddha, all life is suffering. It is your path toward spirituality that alleviates that suffering. Whatever path you may take.