How would you feel in a sexless marriage?

[Scrivdog]

And I just had an 'Aha!' moment.

 

But your "Aha!" moment sounds like one of those lead a horse to water processes. You got actively searched the truth. You were not comfortable with things as they were, even if your initial intent was to prove he was a pig. I can'y imagine there was anything anyone, especially your husband could have done to get you there ..

 

Unfortunately, for most women, that moment comes when they find the husband in the bed with the secretary and yell "Aha!".

[Pink_Tulip]

OK...you got me thinking....I will RE-intiate more affection in terms of what you said...I love yous, pat on the butt, compliments, etc....and I will see what happens in the next month. i will let you know the outcome..

 

I think this is a great start, but I think you need a bit more. You really need to make sure she gets that connection. Maybe when you two are having regular sex say something like, 'when we are intimate it really makes me feel close to you' but NOT near sex, say it when there is no sex expected, like before you leave for work or something. One my own husband uses is, 'I am so lucky, I have the best wife in the world, blah blah blah, AND she has lots of great sex with me!' It really makes me feel like he values everything about me, AND appreciates our sex life- the total package. And I think every woman wants to be that to her husband. Your wife needs to understand that sex for you isn't about that 30 minute time frame, it is something you carry constantly, does that make sense? If not let me know, I am finding it challenging to put words to feelings.

[Ripples]

I'm pretty humbled by some of the guy's posts on here and I'm very grateful too for all the posts that have made me realise how important a healthy sex life is for my relationship.

 

I've found, like some have said, that my sex drive goes way up when I feel the emotional connection with my partner. When he spends time talking to me, touching me in a non-sexual way and doing those little caring things, I want sex! But as soon as our relationship is back to 'normal' - i.e. regular sex, no fighting, that intimacy seems to disappear and so does my sex drive. How can I motivate him to continue providing me with those things without it ending in a huge row? Do I just say to him, I love what he does, it makes me want sex with him, so please would he continue?

[Pink_Tulip]

But your "Aha!" moment sounds like one of those lead a horse to water processes. You got actively searched the truth. You were not comfortable with things as they were, even if your initial intent was to prove he was a pig. I can'y imagine there was anything anyone, especially your husband could have done to get you there ..

 

Unfortunately, for most women, that moment comes when they find the husband in the bed with the secretary and yell "Aha!".

 

This is where I disagree. There are a million roads that will take you to the same place. There is this concept in psychology called 'cognitive dissonence,' or literally, uncomfortable thinking. My friend's comment made me uncomfortable, and it was the catalyst I used to get to the place you want your wife to get to.

 

I will concede that husbands may not be able to get their wives there. As I said, I was a pain in the ass know it all, and the last person I was gonna let tell me anything was my husband. I wouldn't have heard it from him, I would have assumed he was just trying to get into my pants. If your wife is like that, you have an uphill battle, but not an impossible one. She just has to hear it from someone else. That is why I suggested offering books and such. Maybe counseling? And as a last resort, does she have any female friends who 'get it' whom you can talk to? I have talked to many of my friends, trying to show them the light. Never at the request of a husband, but I certainly wouldn't be adverse to it.

 

I really, really empathize with what you are going through. And I honestly wish I had the magic pill. LJ has made some good points about some of the men on here stating that this is a serious problem, but in action not treating it as such. I cannot agree more. Maybe we can help you brainstorm some ways to get this information into your wifes head.

[Pink_Tulip]

How can I motivate him to continue providing me with those things without it ending in a huge row? Do I just say to him, I love what he does, it makes me want sex with him, so please would he continue?

 

You know, this is going to sound sexist and stereotypical, but men like sex. And they will usually do whatever it takes to ensure lots of good sex. And men are very literal, which makes them so easy to talk to. It's been my experience that if you sit your boyfriend down and say, 'you know, when you do XYZ, it really makes me feel closer to you, and when I feel closer, I really enjoy our active sex life,' he will be doing XYZ before you can finish the sentance. It is the same situation, just reversed. Once he makes the connection that fulfilling your EN's gets his needs taken care of, everyone is much happier.

[Ripples]

Right. I guess I'm still operating in the 'he should know what I like, he should do what I like' phase. Too many 'shoulds' for starters.

 

Thanks, PT. I need these things spelling out to me at times

[PandorasBox]

You know, this is going to sound sexist and stereotypical, but men like sex. And they will usually do whatever it takes to ensure lots of good sex. And men are very literal, which makes them so easy to talk to. It's been my experience that if you sit your boyfriend down and say, 'you know, when you do XYZ, it really makes me feel closer to you, and when I feel closer, I really enjoy our active sex life,' he will be doing XYZ before you can finish the sentance. It is the same situation, just reversed. Once he makes the connection that fulfilling your EN's gets his needs taken care of, everyone is much happier.

 

 

I get this and it makes sense, that if you do something for me then I shall do something for you kind of deal. BUT back when I was married, (and maybe it was different for me, not sure) but my ex would always do something fro me to get sex in return, Kind of like he couldn't or wouldn't do something out of the kindness of his heart, or becasue he WANTED too, he did it becasue he always had an ulterior motive behind it. And that motive was sex. I wanted for so long for him to do something, One without have to be asked 50 times, and Two to do something for me because he wanted to, not always because he wanted sex in return. And yes it was told to him and shown what I wanted or needed but for whatever reason he still did things becasue of an ulterior motive. I think thats what shot alot of the sex thing from me all to pieces.

[whichwayisup]

Originally Posted by Pink_Tulip

Hmm, I am going to have to disagree a bit. I think for a woman to be in WWIU's situation it is a bit more frustrating. First, her husband is a MAN, he of all people should understand. Plus, WWIU is a woman, so she has all those hormones that make you upset and cry to deal with, and when you have a situation, hormones just really seem to magnify it. I know that is a total sexist and stereotypical thing to say, but if I were in her shoes, that's how I'd feel.

 

I usually don't cry over it, just today I'm near the end of my P, so I have a killer headache and just feeling more emotional than usual.

 

Thanks PT for your thoughts.

 

Originally Posted by LJ

There's also the modern media's conditioning that women must be attractive to have worth. If they can't feel sexy... they tend to lose self-esteem.

I agree with you, but in my situation it's not that at all. I feel sexy, and I have self confidence...I just want HIM to give ME that "I want you" look. I want him to desire ME.

 

Here's an example (and I don't take it personally because I know him well, and I know he loves me, he's just not the most sexual person at times) I come out of the shower, naked and walk past him, rub up against him and reach down between his legs. 8/10 the response I get is, "not now." Well, when DOES that now come?

 

His needs emotionally are met, as are mine. He's loving and supportive. He goes out of his way to do nice things for me, as I do for him. I make supper most nights, so when he's home late from work he has a hot meal (gaawd, that sounds so old fashioned...), I make him tea, bring it him, whatever. We cuddle and talk, so the affection IS there...Just sometimes it would be nice to get a passionate kiss, saying I love you is wonderful, but FEELING it in action (in bed I mean) is another...

[Flyin in Clouds]

... On top of that, for years it's been dull sex......as if to just satify me, then she's asleep.....

 

It's always straight forward sex as well. Nothing erotic, nothing spontanious, she hasn't even given me a blow job in 10 years.

 

We've been married for half our lives now, it it's hard to imagine dissolving a marriage over something like this.

Uh, if there isn't any sex between a husband and wife then the two are just roommates, they aren't really husband and wife anymore. So yeah, if the sex isn't there then marriage is pretty much dissolved.

 

Everyone on this forum knows how I feel about marriage, and how sacred it is. But this is something that's got me seriously thinking about moving on because all of the talking in the world ain't fixin' it.......

Talk will not fix it. Action will.

 

I don't think most women understand how insecure it makes a man feel when his own wife doesn't enjoy having sex with him as often as he'd like.

Women have no clue. Why would they? Do you think the feminist movement would teach women anything useful about men? Do you think sex education deals with any of this? Why would women understand sex from a man's perspective. Anymore than men would understand the female perspective on sex (and love and the female emotional side of a relationship).

 

I certainly understand that frequencies fluxiate all the time, and I could deal with that to a certain extent. But months on end of nothingness, and then being the one who has to beg, initiate, then when it's over, she goes to sleep.......dealing with this is getting REALLY old.......REALLY fast......

Go read my old posts...

 

I think society does women a huge disservice by feeding them the belief that men are only after one thing, and the women that give it to them are whores. It puts married women in a really strange place.

great point...

 

I didn't get it for years. But now when I initiate sex with my husband and see how happy and excited he gets, I wonder how I could have missed it.

Because women and men don't think the same about sex, and yet all the feminist non-sense says otherwise that women are just like men.

 

I am not a Dr. Laura fan at all, but I have heard she has a book out that does a good job of explaining this to women.

I'm not in general a Dr. L fan either, but her book, "Care and Feeding of Husbands" has a lot of truth in it. At least it's a starting point to discuss things.

 

Force her! Maybe she will love it, who knows? Maybe that's exactly what she wants!

To a degree RP is on the right track here. My wife gets off on feeling "taken". She explains it as it excites her to know that she is driving me so out of control that I just can't control myself and well...

 

So are you staying married to your wife because "you have to" or because you want to? Being wanted is what a woman wants. To know that you choose her, not because you have to but because you freely want her.

 

OK, Moose, here is what I did and it worked for me.

 

After a declining sex life, dwindling to once in six months and as you say, "nothing erotic, just vanilla sex, missionary position" ... I confronted my wife. I laid out the choices I had but living like a monk for the rest of my life wasn't one of those options.

 

1. divorce

2. cheat - fornication as Moose says.

3. fix our relationship.

 

It look a month of serious talks to get past her "you just want sex to satisfy yourself" attitude. Since she felt it was selfishness on my part she wasn't interested in sex. It took a long time to get the message across that sex was a vital part of our relationship and I wanted it to provide pleasure for both of us. And from my side of it, if I couldn't bring her sexual pleasure then I felt totally useless and totally worthless. What would be the point of living if I couldn't please some woman sexually?

 

I never initiate anymore, b/c I grew tired of being shot down.

Been there done that. It's all part of the sexual side of the relationship falling apart. And that was driven in large part by both my wife and I not understanding each other. She need to feel loved so my stopping the advances, even though she always rejected them, made her feel I didn't care about her anymore, which killed her desire to engage in any sexual activity. It was a downward spiral with each of us making it worse.

 

I read Extraordinary Sex Now: A Couple's Guide to Intimacy by Dr. Sandra Scantling in about a day and asked my my wife to read it also. She agreed that she would. About 3 months have past and she is just now starting to read it b/c I gave her sh*t about it. We'll see if it makes any difference.

Reading a book isn't going to make you or your wife a great lover any more than reading a book on golf will suddenly make you be able to beat Tiger Woods. Reading books on flying airplanes is necessary but not sufficient to learn to fly. You have to actually get in a plane and fly.

 

I'll repeat what I've written on other threads, but basically I told my wife I was going to have a mistress. I was going to have a woman that wanted to be my lover and act like a lover - sexual and exciting. The woman I wanted most for that role in my life was her. Of course she got pissed because all she heard was I wanted a mistress. She didn't hear "the woman I want for that is you". It took weeks for her to finally hear that loud and clear but when she did it was like a revelation, an epiphany. "Oh, you really do want me for me... you really do love me. That's why you want to have sex with me. Because I'm the woman you love. Oh... I get it now". We both felt the other no longer loved us because of our downward spiral. It took a lot to turn that into an upward spiral. If you want to be a lazy lover then forget it. You won't turn it around because being a woman's Don Juan takes real work. I do think most women (heterosexual women) want a Don Juan in their life. When their husband stops being that they start to think about having an affair. And if you aren't going to play the Don Juan to your wife, some other guy will be more than glad to do that for her. Likewise when women start thinking they no longer have to be a seductive sexy women, because they are married,they've got their man to say those vows, they don't have to work at it anymore, that is when men lose interest fast and start thinking about other women.

 

Maybe couples should be automatically divorced every year on their anniversary and have to re-up if they want to keep going. That way they'd have to do all the hard work of courting. The guy chasing and the woman being sexy and seductive so her guy wanted to chase her.

 

Rosey Palm is better than my wife anyway.

 

Nothing she can do for me that I can't do for myself better

Well, uh no. I can't watch my wife driven wild by my actions if I'm going solo. It's the feedback that she thinks I'm a decent lover for her that I missed most during the drought.

 

As to fornicating or divorce (when adultery is not present) which is the greater evil?

 

Staying faithful in a sexless marriage is next to impossible!!

That's true (for men and women). So don't let it continue. Ignoring the problem will not make it go away. If you want your wife as your lover you have to make sure she understands that, loud and clear. Without you telling her she won't understand that not having sex is very damaging to you.

 

Are you going to be the man in your relationship Moose? Isn't it the man that has to chase the woman? Isn't a man supposed to ask a woman out on a date? To dance? Yeah, I know women's lib and all that and they can do that asking from time to time, but really aren't you in charge of your sexlife? Your love life?

 

Date your wife. Silly as that sounds, try it. If she feels like you are dating her, not demanding or begging for sex she might respond better. Women want a man, not s whinny little boy. I've been told that woman like a man that is confident and get turned by being "taken".

 

Why in hell would you guys sit around with your thumbs up your asses waiting for women who are NOT AROUSED to initiate sex with you? C'mon

 

Seriously... you boys have something like 40+ years of marital experience between you and THIS is the best plan you monkeys can come up with???

:lmao::lmao: ROTFLMA... Yeah, LJ, why do guys that once where able to get a woman excited enough to marry them then turn into total duds as lovers? Well it's not entirely the guys fault. The women tend to give up on being seductive as they were before getting the ring and a lifetime commitment.

 

And you can't undo years of ignoring her, making her feel less and less loved, overnight. Ain't going to happen. Took years to damage the relationship, it's going to take a long time to recover it and it's going to be a work in progress forever. If you give up, things will go back to how they are now. So you have to change your behavior. You have to become that Don Juan guy. Get creative. And once you do, I'll bet your woman will be creative too when she finally begins to believe you love her again.

 

I would like to hear from the women what gets them turned on, what gets them feeling they want to have sex with their man? What makes them feel loved and wanted. Am I right about a woman wanting her man to make her feel so desirable he just has to have her? To "take" her?

 

We women can be just as dense as you men about certain things, but once we get it, we get it. Oh, and so will you.

 

Have you thought about buying her a book? Anything?

Forget the book, buy her some flowers and some jewelry. When was the last time you went shopping to buy her a nice necklace? Doesn't have to be super expensive, but has to be something that looks really nice.

 

For our anniversary I booked a room at an expensive historic hotel, went to the dinner theater, had champagne, and some chocolates for her and a necklace. I also bought my self a gift - some sexy lingerie for her from Victoria Secrets. She was willing to wear that for me because of what I was doing for her. Worked out well I think.

[Pink_Tulip]

Ripples- After all my epiphonies and aha moments, I still catch myself getting mad at my H for not being psychic and 'just knowing' what I want or what I need. We women are so intuitive, we just assume men are too, and get frustrated with them when they act like men, lol. As long as you recognize you do it, you are one step ahead of the game.

 

Pandora's- You know, some people just suck. I like to believe that everyone is good and the world is a perfect place, but unfortunately that is not true. I really can't imagine living for years with someone who simply was not interested in genuinely meeting your needs. I still have hope that many of the men on this thread have wives who DO want to meet their husbands needs, just don't realize how far off the mark they are. I guess time will tell.

 

WWIU- I honestly don't know what to say. Assuming he isn't cheating or gay (which I don't believe is the case), I can't imagine why he is having these issues. I have read your posts in the past and I think your situation is so alien to most people, there isn't a lot of advice we can offer. Sadly ironic for you to be in this sitaution, amongst a group of men who would give anything for a wife with your passion.

[whichwayisup]

WWIU- I honestly don't know what to say. Assuming he isn't cheating or gay (which I don't believe is the case), I can't imagine why he is having these issues. I have read your posts in the past and I think your situation is so alien to most people, there isn't a lot of advice we can offer. Sadly ironic for you to be in this sitaution, amongst a group of men who would give anything for a wife with your passion.

 

He's not cheating and definately not gay. LOL that's funny actually...

I just think he's not the most sexual person, and at times though he IS, but sex isn't ON his mind all the time, so I guess it gets shoved off to the backburner and isn't too important. Weird thing is, he's not always like that, it's inconsistant. I don't know...

 

He and I need to get away somewhere for a weekend and reconnect.

[Mr. Lucky]

What I'm getting from you is that you think the woman is the one who has to change her mindset... but the man doesn't. (????)

 

Again, I say... it's impractical to EXPECT a woman who is NOT AROUSED to behave in a sexual manner as if she were. Why is that so difficult to understand? I'm not asking you to do brain surgery here.

Wow, fast moving thread!

 

I guess you got me there, because I do indeed think that (in the "practically not EVER" instance of initiation you cited) a change of mindset is required. Yours is an extreme position. Taking a pass on "EVER" initiating sex (regardless of your response once your partner gets things started) is an abdication of your part of the responsibility. Having a good relationship (sexual or otherwise) takes effort from both partners.

 

That effort also assumes that both partners are also going to work at things that don't come easily to them. If that's impractical, then it's no wonder that this thread has struck a chord with so many married men, myself included.

 

Mr. Lucky

[Ladyjane14]

...I do indeed think that (in the "practically not EVER" instance of initiation you cited) a change of mindset is required. Yours is an extreme position.

 

You're right, of course. Whatever was I thinking? All married women should just be a sex-slave within the home, catering to her husband's each and every UNSPOKEN whim.

 

Of course, I'd rather be boiled in oil than cooperate with that... so my husband will be dreadfully disappointed to hear you guys have finally convinced me. COMPROMISE is never the answer. Got it.

 

It's too bad really. He was one of the very few guys I know who was getting regular marital sex.

[ThumbingMyWay]

Kudos to all of you, and Moose, too, who had the courage to tell us how he feels.

 

 

yes...thank you Moose.

 

The topic of the last few pages has been on my mind for a couple months now. But I was....well....a little hesitant to post here for advice. But then I read Moose post from a few pages back....and I was like YES....someone feels like me...finaly, I can get this off my chest....

 

we have a weekend alone this weekend....maybe I will get that 10 pound bag of sugar sooner than I thought :bunny:

[Mr. Lucky]

You're right, of course. Whatever was I thinking? All married women should just be a sex-slave within the home, catering to her husband's each and every UNSPOKEN whim.

 

That's what you got from what I said? Accepting some responsibility for initiating sex requires a women to be "a sex-slave within the home"? Not sure where that came from...

 

Of course, I'd rather be boiled in oil than cooperate with that... so my husband will be dreadfully disappointed to hear you guys have finally convinced me. COMPROMISE is never the answer. Got it.

 

We're on the same page here - compromise is almost always the answer. A compromise in this situation would be "you do it sometimes and I'll do it sometimes. Since it's more important to me, I'll even do it more often then you". "I'll do it not EVER" doesn't strike me as a compromise.

 

It's too bad really. He was one of the very few guys I know who was getting regular marital sex.

 

Well, I certainly envy him as he seems to be ahead of the rest of us here . However, if it requires that I'm always the active one and my wife is always passive, I don't have the will to catch up.

 

Mr. Lucky

[RecordProducer]

That would make it or break it wouldn't it?

 

Imagine that if she agreed to that, would she remain dormant as she is now, or would she instantly turn into a horn dog?

The point of an open marriage is NOT to improve your sex life with your spouse, but to get sex on aside. But since she is not interested in sex at all, I guess the best option is to pay a visit to a sexologist and get a medication that will boost her libido along with some good advice.

[Flyin in Clouds]

Still way behind and trying to catch up...

....

My whole problem is that there isn't a gift on this whole planet that I could give that she doesn't already have access to.

Come on Moose, are your really that slow? Sure my wife can buy her self anything she wants. But she can't buy herself something I choose for her. There is a huge difference between her getting herself some peice of jewlery and me getting something I think she'd like. Huge difference. It's the thought that counts.

If anyone walked up to her right now and asked her what else in life she could possibly want, she couldn't tell you.

So? If you don't know without asking her then you haven't been paying attention which is probably the whole problem.

If it weren't for this last element.....and if I didn't have have to struggle so hard to share it with her.......

no solution to talking to her than talking to her and making it clear to her and not us.

 

Look if your wife was "the other woman" what would you be doing? How would you treat her? If you had another woman what would you do to keep her interested in allowing you into her pants?

Yes.....sexless marriage isn't the greatest.

 

But it sure could be A LOT worse.....

Yes, but not much... because if it was worse you'd have been gone long ago. Your wife is being abusive in a way. She doesn't realize that she is but she is.

If the spouse repulses the other, then get out. Life is too short to live in misery.

 

If you value sex in marriage and they don't....get out too. They compromised their vows.

Easy to say, but hard to give up a home, family, kids, and 30 years of history together just because one part of the relationship is not working well (or at all).

They want sex, they're not getting it anymore at home,

Scrivdog, I don't want just sex. I want more. If it's just sex rosy palm or a whore will do. But sex with a whore is nothing liked sex with a woman that you love and care about.

But no way I'm watching my good sexual years pass me by as a monk.

Can't fault you there.

And no YOU don't have a communication problem, your desires are perfectly normal and reasonable, and you'll get very little support anywhere for the gravity of the issue.

I do think it is a communication problem. The wife isn't getting the signal that you really love her anymore. The "vibes" aren't there. It's nothing verbal. It's all the subtle communication that matters more.

You've described her as a woman who's very content with her life. There's nothing missing for her.

My wife too was "content". She flat out said she could live life happily without having sex again. geez... She was totally clueless as to how I'd perceive that. She didn't understand that it gave me real suicidal thoughts. She didn't need me as a man anymore. WTF? Life wasn't worth living in that case.

 

Not only do you have to let your wife know what's important to you and why, but you have to make her hungry for you. That's your job.

 

So why is sex important to you Moose, C, Scrivdog? Is it just to get your rocks off or do you want to feel you can give pleasure to your woman? Do you care about pleasing her or pleasing yourself? Which is more important?

But that STILL doesn't give you permission to slack off on YOUR job. And your job is twofold... to fulfill her ENs as best as you can and to bring yours to her.

exactly.

 

He knows that I'm practically not EVER going to initiate sex.

why not LJ? Are you going to present yourself as a sexy and sexual woman? Why not? Didn't you do that before you were married? Trying to attract a date? It's pretty hard for a guy to get excited about a woman that just doesn't give a frig about sex. The attraction of porn is that porn stars at least act as if they like sex and want it. OK, they are being paid to act that way, but the attraction is the fantasy that they actually do like sex. The thing that is most important is attitude and not physical appearance. And are you saying LJ, that you don't react to attention from males at all? If a guy was hitting on you it doesn't turn you on a little bit?

That's like getting struck by lightning, guys.

hmmm... I've got this big old Van De Graaff generator that I'd like to hook you women up to....

I'm not ever going to BE an underwear model.

Why not? You mean you won't ever wear sexy lingerie? If not, why not? Is it really that hard to to do make it good for your man?

I'm not a porn star,

But can you put on an act like one - occasionally - in the privacy of your bedroom for your husband's benefit? Can you occasionally try to be a "different" kind of woman for him? Step outside your comfort zone and be a little brazen? Both of you might like it. Expand your horizons. Do the unexpected. YOU might actually enjoy it. And so might he.

I don't feel responsible for fulfilling 'wants'. I only feel responsible for fulfilling 'needs'.

my wants are my needs.

If he has a 'want' for fantasy sex, I'm terrible sorry about his luck , but that's not MY problem.

Well that's a problem because what you think is merely his "wants" may be from his POV a need. So you aren't any more willing to satisfy his fantasies than he is yours. Does he get to decide what your needs versus wants are?

. but I'm not willing to be objectified.

So if that's what he wants, what should he do? Hire a whore? You'd be OK with that solution? Or does he just have live without something he wants? What do you have to live without that you want, that he isn't willing to give? So is tying you up, and having his way with you out of the question? No" 9 1/2 weeks" kind of sex? (It's a movie, rent it).

And should I choose to step outside the box on my comfort level... that's a gift and should be treated as such.

Oh, gee thank you for being so kind as to granting gifts. My loving my wife at all is a gift to her. Or does she just have a right to expect it? If she just expects it that kind of kills the whole thing right there. Just like if I expect she should always be willing to have sex no matter how I treat her.

In the end, I think my advice to you guys would be to tailor your expectations to the woman you married.

LJ, the woman I married disappeared. She was sexy and sexual and fully into it, three times a day, 7 days a week, when we were first married. 30+ years on, that woman is no longer around. And while that much sex would kill me know, more than what I get sure would be nice.

I'm already working hard to get beyond my decreased physical attraction to her (she gained alot of weight since marriage) but the lady is simply un-approachable. Masturbation is ok, but I need partner sex!

Yeah.... exactly. But the wife here obviously doesn't care to keep the marriage going. She'd be shocked if you left for another woman and condemn all men for just being hound dogs interested in just one thing.

Sex is about pleasurable connection,

It's a hell of a lot more than that. It's about ego. Self worth. It's a lot more than just an orgasm.

My advice to all healthy spouses in chronically sexless marriages where the (healthy) rejectionist spouse has refused to accommodate his or her mate's sexual needs: Exit.

Well if you don't try to fix it first that's a bad decision. But if you have really, really tried, including the "I'm going to have sex with someone, I'd like to be you, but if not then it will be someone else" talk, then yeah exit. But how? Divorce or cheat?

We've come to the crux of the matter then, haven't we?..... in defining which is which.

 

It takes really good communications, and even then it's an inexact science. You have to have a willingness to prioritize ENs when you find them,

You're missing the point LJ. No amount of communication will solve "irreconcilable" difference over what a man sees as a need and woman says is merely a want.

The introvert can't behave as an extrovert except as a pretence. It's not right to expect a person be less than genuine.

Often I think my wife would like me to be a little rougher with her than I'm comfortable with. I try to be more "aggressive" and she seems to likes it. But it's not the way I naturally treat a woman. It is hard for me to play that role, but if that is what she wants I'll do my best to satisfy her. I will do anything she wants in bed to try to satisfy her. Well just about anything...

I need a man who appreciates a WHOLE woman... not just a woman's HOLE.

I need a woman that appreciates me appreciating all her holes, as a whole woman would.

I'm not talking about any kinky "sexual needs" mind you,

Excuse me? Why diss those LJ? They are as legitimate as any other sexual need or any emotional need a woman might have. Why do you get to decide which needs are valid and which aren't?

 

Is doing it doggie kinky? Is doing it in the missionary position and only the missionary position acceptable?

upon receipt of her husband's snarky delivery of... "Fine then I'll just get it somewhere else!" has responded with..."Alright by me! (cue angry flounce).

Well at least the guy is being honest and not lying about what he's going to do. Be angry if you want, but it won't fix the problem.

My wife is smokig hot and i dont understand why she doesnt want sex more than a few times a month.

Well ....

 

She's either getting it from someone else (sorry, but that's what I thought about my wife at first).

 

Or she doesn't want it because sex has become boring, routine, expected and she thinks you are only interested because she's hot and you want it just for you. So.... lets review your options here.... shall we?

 

1. go on suffering and live like a monk the rest of your life

2. divorce her and find someone else

3. cheat and fine someone else

4. confront her and tell her you are going to get laid by someone, you'd like to be her but if she's not interested she can choose which of 2 or 3 she'd rather have.

5. last resort - you can always decide to end it all, thus avoiding 1, 2, 3, or 4.

 

Frankly I'd recommend 4 before you try 3 or 2, and 1 is of course unacceptable. 5 is definitely not appealing.

 

What have you got to lose by choosing 4? Your wife will get mad and cut you off? She's already lost that weapon. She'll divorce you? Well that was one of your next steps anyway. She'll yell and scream? Good, let her. Scream back.

 

I would really like to here [sic] what you know about WHY us men need sex as a form of EN, not just the act.

OK, as a man, sex with my wife is important to me not just for the sexual orgasm which feels good, but because I have a need (not a want LJ, a real need) to satisfy her. If I can't do that, as a man should do, if I can't please my woman, then I feel useless as a human being. Totally. And I'd rather be dead than not be able to please a woman. There are many things worse than death. Alzheimer's is one. But not having a woman to love is another. Being alone is another.

 

I NEED my wife to want me sexually. That’s the bottom line. If I don’t FEEL her in the sense that she actually wants to have sex with me, then it’s a huge turn off and it drives me to pull away in ways that are detrimental to HER needs. Meaning, I become less affectionate, less in tune with her. And I hate doing that, but I also know that when I am attentive to her, and I still get shot down, its just reinforcement that its not working, and I withdraw even more.

Yeap, the downward spiral.

 

But it would in interesting to know what actions Ladyjane thinks Moose, et. al. should take.

 

Then I realize that her kisses and her passion is what I want...not just sex.

Exactly. Having sex with a woman that just lays there or is just doing it for her husband sake is worse than masturbating.

 

I feel that you are giving yourself a huge pass here, Ladyjane, and it seems to be at your husband's expense. What Moose and others are saying here is that they not only crave sex but, maybe more importantly, the affirmation of being wanted and desired. Avoiding "noncompliance" with your husband's desires is definitely not the same thing.

For me part of that "affirmation" would be my wife wanting to be sexy, occasionally at least being a "lingerie model" for me, and in general dressing sexy. If she's not interested to make the effort to be attractive and sexy that tells me she just flat out doesn't care all that much about me.

 

Many wives's EN's include the verbal affirmation of their husband's expression of love and committment. I don't think those women would be satisfied if their husbands said "I'm practically not EVER going to" tell you "I love you". Like Moose, myself and others, it would leave you wanting more.

How often does Mr. Lucky get lucky? I would guess more often with this kind of insight.

 

my wifes exMM comes inot the picture there. NO this friend is not having an A with my wifes exMM, but they are close and do talk often. So my wife while in converstions with her friend and her friends STBX, the exMM comes up alot....so theres that cancer still lingering in the shawdows.....

Huh? your wife's had an affair with a MM? Sorry, not following here. Clarify please.

 

I guess that's why I have wondered if he could, even subconsciously, be using the ED as an excuse to avoid all of it.

Yeap. Do you know how frustrating it is to be a man, wanting to have sex with the woman you love and not being able to? You want to die. My wife would want to just hug. That was enough intimacy for her. All that did was make me more frustrated because I'd want more than just hugging. So I stopped hugging her because it was killing me that she didn't want to go further. It was like a huge tease. It got to be very painful, physically and emotionally.

I want to understand what he is thinking and feeling.

If he loves you, wants to have sex with you but can't he'll feel like sh*t. At least I would. I'd be totally depressed and I'd be suicidal.

I want to know if it's really me that he loves or is he just in love with the idea of marriage and family.

Silly wabbit. Why does it have to be either or. Maybe he's in love with you, the idea of marriage, to you, and family with you.

I understand how the ED has probably been a blow to his manhood

probably? You have no idea.

ED does not mean that the guy doesn't want sex! Don't make the mistake of equating a wife who denies her husband sex with the guy who wants to but can't ..

 

If a guy won't have sex for weeks or months on end, it's because he lost his desire or drive or whatever. That won't get cured by a pill.

ED meds do not correct lack of desire. They only allow a man to maintain an erection if there is sexual stimulation.

His doctor prescribed Cialis at that time. We reconciled in August and he used the Cialis once just a few days before he physically moved back in and then once more just a few days later.

There can be significant side effects with all the ED drugs. Because Cialis is eliminated from the body more slowly than the others it remains effective longer. However that also means the side effects hang around longer too. You might want to have him try one of the others. As to going with him it is embarrassing enough for a guy to admit he has to use an ED med to get it up. It makes him feel less of a man. Don't make it worse.

her usual response is, "we do enjoy sex with each other....what's the problem?".....when told it's the frequency, it's the ole roll your eyes, whisper, "not this again"....routine from her.

 

I guess my point is that she's well aware of these needs, and why I need them.

Does she know you'd consider divorce or cheating if it's not more frequent? If she doesn't know that, then she's not understanding the problem is she?

It's an unreasonable ultimatum.

Why? I don't see it as unreasonable at all. The ultimatum is only for the shock value to wake her up that her behavior is damn serious and jeopardizing her marriage to you. If she doesn't care to fix that then it's time for the big D.

And I wouldn't send her packing over something like this either.

Earlier you said it's getting to that point. Is that just venting? Or you going to fix this problem?

Frustrated, alone, un-respected, no longer desired, tired, and hopeless.

So what are you going to do about it Moose? See the choices above and pick one. If you are determined to live like a monk or near monk then stop whining to us here. If you want to change something then you aren't going to do that painlessly. No pain, no gain. Choose something. Of course doing nothing is a choice too, but that defaults to number 1 above.

it's impractical to EXPECT a woman who is NOT AROUSED to behave in a sexual manner as if she were.

And do women expect a man who is NOT AROUSED by his wife to act in a loving, and sexual manor with her? Swings both ways on the arousal carousel. If a woman isn't willing to do the least little thing to display a positive attitude toward sex and a willingness to be sexy why would a man get it up for her? I mean really, I'm supposed to get sexually excited by a sloppy sweat shirt that hides every bit of skin? Or might a little cleavage kick start something? Cloths make the woman you know. Preferably a little black dress slit up the side to display those sexy legs.

You boys keep getting into trouble because you're taking offense at the idea that you need to initiate sexual contact.

The problem is when we try and get shot down 10 times in a row... well, a guy tends to give up and just say she's frigid.

We ask women to understand the nature of a man... Well men, that goes both ways. You should understand the nature of a woman as well.

Absolutely!!!! So help us out here Ladies... tell us in specifics what you want, what makes you feel loved, what turns you on? Candle light dinners? a4a wanted "planning" from her man, to show he loved her. I can see that. More ideas please.

1. Tolerance. You continue much as you have, frustrated by the problem but not addressing it with alacrity.

 

2. Divorce. You end up paying child support and looking for a new girlfriend.

 

3. Adultery. You end up in divorce court, splitting your money between your ex-wife and your new girlfriend.

 

4. Negotiation. You work it out until BOTH you and your spouse are satisfied with your arrangement.

It is interesting you put it his way LJ.

 

Tolerance. You think the "no sex" option is tolerable. I put it as continuing to suffer as in suffering real pain, both physical and emotional.

 

Divorce. Nope not going to pay child support. Period. I'll pay for when I have custody, woman pays when she has custody. And I don't give a damn what any court says about it. Sorry but you women want equality. Then you have to be equally responsible for child support and not put the burden on men.

 

Adultery - this is one that puzzles me. The reason for the affair is the wife has no interest in satisfying her husband's sexual needs, so rather than pester her for it he finds it else where. Now just why is the wife so all fired upset about that? It is not like she's being denied anything. She didn't want sex, so she's not getting any. What's the problem? Is it a wife feels she has a right to torment her man by locking up his balls?

 

Negotiation? What's to negotiate? A woman that doesn't care about sex, doesn't want sex, is going to be negotiated into being a sex goddess?

 

Do you need passionate sex, or do you just need for your wife to initiate sex?

What's wrong with getting both? I'm reminded of a song by Queen. "I want it all and I want it now....".

Asking her for BOTH is a bit of a lottery win, don't you think? What's she getting out of the deal? Bear in mind... she neither wants nor needs frequent sex. What are YOU giving up when you expect to have both?

What does she get out of the deal? A better marriage, happier husband? She gets to keep her marriage. And why would I be giving up anything to make the marriage better for both of us. Is love something you negotiate? I've got to give up something to get something? WTF is that?

So, if I say to him that I'm not feeling well... he knows it's true and doesn't build resentment for the mistaken belief that I rejected him.

The trouble LJ is that some women have a headache that lasts for years. That's called a medical problem. See a Dr.

if it's HIS job to put the key in the ignition, it's HER job to provide enough mental fuel to keep the engine running.

I try to put the key into the ignition as often as I can. But you can't turn the engine over with a dead battery.

She'll respond to a lesser wake-up call way before then, I'm sure.

I doubt it. Mrs Moose, like most women, just don't get it. They do not understand how threatening to their relationship the disinterest in sex is.

But let's say that he threatens divorce credibly enough and that scares her into having sex with him. I can guarantee you it'll last as long as the threat still lingers and not for a minute more.

Wasn't that the case before people married? If each partner wasn't putting out maximum effort in the sex department the relationship would end. Even if they remain virgins there was still an active participation in the relationship to keep it going. Now that she's married, Mrs. Moose no longer needs to be bothered trying to keep her man from other women. So why bother with sex? So yes, if the threat of the relationship ending isn't always present, if both partners don't realize that going forward, then the same old bad habit of ignoring each other's needs comes back.

Your other option is to STOP needing whatever it is that you "need".

Oh, yeah. I forgot the option of castration. Sorry. I'd rather be dead.

Those things are stacked against cheating, but NOT against a divorce caused by sexless marriage.

LJ, the only reason a Christian may divorce his wife is if she is an adulterer. So sayeth Christ Himself. The courts are totally stacked against a man in divorce. He has to pay child support, not his wife. She gets custody in most cases. Go look as some of the "father's rights" forums.

Kiddo.. you are NEVER going to convince me that cheating is the answer.

LJ, that's why for a while I considered suicide as the only reasonable option. I couldn't see any of my list above, 1,2, 3 or 4 working.

 

I can't tell you how incredibly painful it was to live in a sexless marriage. To have been married for over a quarter century to a woman I loved but I didn't think loved me anymore. I wanted to die. The pain was that great.

A partner who is fundamentally unhappy with his sexlife, whose truest needs are left unfulfilled... needs to pick himself up, dust himself off, and remove himself from the situation.

LJ can you understand a no win scenario? What does a man do? Save his family at the expense of his own happiness? Lose his soul to save his happiness? Where is the win? Why do women give a man such a terrible choice. Women - I love 'em and I hate 'em all at the same time.

There's a neat little tool called POJA over at marriagebuilders. If you type into your browser "The Policy of Joint Agreemtment, marriagebuilders", you'll find an article.

It is amazing how I got over our problems without marriagebuilders or this site or any other. Just talking to each other.

But for both of us, it is hard to sit down with our wives and produce the same results...due to emotions.

Sure it's hard. You expect relationship between to complex individuals to be easy? Get real.

With this statement, you are basically saying that Mrs. Moose will choose option 1 b/c she doesn't care about her husbands EN's. Do you see that? And the point LJ and I are making is that, she doesn't know this is an EN issue! Do you see the difference? You would be 100% correct to say that yes, some women are that mean and nasty and don't care. But I don't believe for one second this applies to most women

Uh, not to be too cynical or anything but men what say ye to this? Women that mean and nasty? Yes - even if they don't know they are being mean and nasty.

In fact, most women I know are going insane trying to find ways to be emotionally CLOSER to their husbands! They buy all these books, cook nice dinners, keep the house clean, and wonder why they don't have the strong bond that they want.

Crap. I DON'T WANT A DAMN MAID OR COOK! I want a lover, a mistress, a woman to fool around with as a woman. I'll skip dinner, just put on some sexy cloths damn it. Hell meet me naked at the door with a martini and we'll be fine for the night... I want my wife, mind, body and soul. All of her. Yes, as the object of my desire. But most importantly because I have this need to make her happy with physical intimacy. I don't want just her body, but her mind. I want to couple with her, to be one with her. I want all of her.

 

And it is b/c they don't get that their husbands want SEX and an enthusiastic partner, NOT a clean house. See what I mean? There is a famous quote by Stephen Covey that goes, 'people don't see the world as it is, they see it as they are.' Women think, gee, I'd really like a clean house. So thats what they give their husbands, assuming men think like them.

Bingo... give that lady the big cuppy doll.

 

One of the most hurtful, painful things a woman can feel is being objectified by the man she loves.

you mean like being the object of my love, my heart's desire, the object of all my hopes and dreams, the object of all my passion, the very reason for my being? This is some how hurtful?

 

Oh, you mean like treating her like a sex object. Or as my wife would say as a piece of meat. Hey, being the sex object I most want to have sex with I thought was high praise. My wife didn't see it that way. Even if it was true. Can't we role play once in a while? That is one difference with sex with a whore. I don't have to worry about her feelings. I can be as nasty as I wanna be. Can't do that with the wife. I have to live with her. She'll be there in the morning. So sex become more "restrained" with the wife. More inhibited. Less enjoyable.

 

And I can pretty much guarentee every time you get that crossed arms, rolls the eyes reaction, that is how she is feeling. I know you feel like your communication is good, but there is a huge lapse. You are saying one thing, she is hearing another

Yes. That is exactly the problem. Miscommunication. Misunderstanding. Men don't understand women and women don't understand men. Leads to a lot of divorce, cheating and heartache all around.

 

I am telling you now as someone who gets it, and has sex with her husband about 5x a week. when she gets it, things will change dramatically. She will not have sex with you out of obligation or fear of you leaving, as some have said. She will have sex with you b/c she finally gets that she is giving the man she loves exactly what he needs, and as a woman, that will make her immensly happy too.

That is when a little girl becomes a woman, a full woman. When she enjoys being a woman. And that is when a man enjoys being a man when he has such a woman. Yeah, I think Pink_Tulip does get it. I hope your husband realizes how lucky he is to have such a woman. Better shower you with love.

 

SO TELL US.

 

how do we get our wives to GET IT?

It ain't easy and some wives will never get it.

[Flyin in Clouds]

....

Cause when she IS ready...I better jump right in.....cause she HATES rejection. But why is it that I am just suppose to "understand" when she rejects me?

Because she's a woman. She's entitled, you're not.

 

For instanst....if she comes home at midnight after being out and had a few drinks...she ALWAYS wakes me up for sex....

 

Uh... huh? Where is she out til midnight drinking and who is she drinking with? WTF? Why is she out til midnight without you?

 

...

What is wrong with you guys stepping up to the plate and saying... "My problem is bigger than yours... because ultimately if we fail to resolve it, the marriage will end." (????)

what I been saying.

 

You guys are telling me that you have this big, huge problem in your lives... but you don't TREAT it like a big, huge problem. Why is that?

Because we have been trained to be nice guys to women or else they'll cut our balls off.

 

...

I can only tell you how I got it, and LJ can do the same. As I said earlier in this thread, I was just like Moose's wife. Sex did not interest me. And to dispell some of the other myths I have seen on this forum, it was not b/c my H lacked any skills. He has always been the type who was willing to go above and beyond for me. I just didn't have any kind of sex drive. And I am ashamed to say I did just give him some pity f*cks here and there to keep him quiet. Like many women, since *I* did not have a sex drive, I ASSumed everyone, including men, were wired just like me.

People always tend to assume other people are just like themselves. Ain't so, but that's what we all assume.

 

I couldn't figure out why he wanted sex so much. I told him to stop thinking about sex so much, and he wouldn't be so horny! LOL! How naive is that?

Naive and cruel.

 

Anyway, some girlfriends and I were out having lunch one day, and we were all complaining about how our husbands always wanted sex. Then one of my friends says, 'Husbands who are happy at home don't go looking for women to screw.'

Not always true. Some men will cheat no matter how great the sex is at home. They just want variety.

 

... To my defense, I was in my early 20's and still pretty much a pain in the ass.

Yeah, young women are a pain in the ass!

 

Anyway, I found the exact opposite of what I was looking for. I found men like the men on this thread, saying the same things. And I just had an 'Aha!' moment. I don't know how else to explain it. It is very humiliating when you think you know everything, to suddenly learn you weren't even close. So from that day on I made an effort to better understand my husband, even when what he was saying was the opposite of everything I had been told. I learned to trust him, I think that was a big thing for me. I had trust issues, so I never listened to anyone. But I had to make myself realize that he was telling me the truth, not saying things to further his selfish interests. That was hard and didn't happen overnight.

 

And now, years later, I see how much closer our marriage is with regular sex, giving him things he wants that before I believed men would only want to dominate or humiliate their wife with, etc. It is a different relationship we have now, very close, very loving, very secure. Exactly what most women are looking for with their husbands, which is why I keep saying, I honestly believe your wives just don't get it, b/c if they could have with you what I have with my H, they'd be naked in bed waiting for you right now. Hope all that makes sense.

All hail Pink_Tuplip. If only all women understood this. The whole "hate men" stuff that feminist propgate is harmful. Most men don't want to dominate their wives (well OK, occasionally I'd like to tie her up and have my way with her but only as play...) or hurt them. Most men want to make their wife happy. That is what drives most men to do what they do. To get up in the morning and go to work.

[Flyin in Clouds]

....

What about the flipside of this? When the husband isn't "into" his wife, he doesn't "desire her" or "look" at her with lust in his eyes anymore...

What do you do to generate that lust? Anything? Change your hair color recently? Wear sex lingerie?

 

*I will say, this has nothing to do with love*, I'm talking about what Thumbs and Moose are saying, they desire and WANT their wives, yet their wives could live without sex and still be happy. What if the situation's reversed?

The reason my wife wasn't interested in sex was I wasn't making her feel loved, wanted and desired. My bad. She, being turned off, didn't care about sex and didn't realize what that was doing to me. Her bad.

 

A relatinship is a mutual thing. Takes two to tango. Got any slinky dresses?

 

It's hard to be aroused by a woman that doesn't appear to care about sex. Could that be part of his problem. Also google the Coolidge effect. Men like variety. Try to be a "different" woman.

[Flyin in Clouds]

t....

 

If she only knew that if she gave more sexually, I woudl give more emotional.........

Sorry you got that backwards. You give more emotionally, then she'll feel like giving more of her body to you. You go first.

 

I give affection in hopes of getting some.......but it dont work and I dont get sex...I become withdrawn.....I dont get sex because of that....she finally comes around...and I feel its not genuine....I reject sex out of resentment.....she becomes withdrawn....and WE dont get sex.....

Downward spiral. That requires understanding on everyone's part.

 

I am afraid that the pattern will continue to the point we cannot return from...

If you don't break the cycle you will likely crash and burn.

 

And I will be in Moose boat....stuck in a marriage where everything is going good except the bedroom....and when the bedroom doesnt fulfill my needs....it leads me to be unhappy in what looks like a happy marriage. But because of my convictions towards marriage....i aint going anywhere...

 

arrggg.

So are you going to live with it? Your choice buddy.

 

YES I do. I do and I do....but when I get rejected the majority of the time...I lose motivation....and resentment sets in. Why should I have to keep trying....if all my efforts only yield a cup of sugar when it should yield the Sams Club 10 pound bag?

Problem is you haven't primed the pump properly. You have to convince her that you love her for more than her body.

 

The fact is....we only have sex when she feels like....and I dont like that. I want her to now what you and LJ know about us. If she gave more...I will give more.

Hey, If it is YOU setting up the contitions where SHE wants sex, what the hell are you going to complain about? How would you get get her hot and horny? Come on, you used to know how to do that dind't you?

 

OK...you got me thinking....I will RE-intiate more affection in terms of what you said...I love yous, pat on the butt, compliments, etc....and I will see what happens in the next month. i will let you know the outcome..

You know that's good and all that but how about a weekend get away. Something you plan to some romantic spot, free of distractions (like kids - hire someone to watch them.) Some place she'd enjoy going to.

 

Try sending her flowers to her work (at home if she's not working) and not for a special day like valentines, for just a random day. Candle light dinner and TALK about your need for her, your wanting her. Focus on HER. If she doesn't respond to that she's dead.

[Flyin in Clouds]

....

 

He and I need to get away somewhere for a weekend and reconnect.

excellent idea. And do it more often than just once.

[PandorasBox]

Pandora's- You know, some people just suck. I like to believe that everyone is good and the world is a perfect place, but unfortunately that is not true. I really can't imagine living for years with someone who simply was not interested in genuinely meeting your needs. I still have hope that many of the men on this thread have wives who DO want to meet their husbands needs, just don't realize how far off the mark they are. I guess time will tell.

 

 

Thanks PT. You know, once he cheated, that was the final straw for me. I ended the marriage. Was I partly responsible for maybe WHY he cheated? Its possible, since he didn't get the sex he needed or wanted. He was also a clingy, insecure, never satisfied with anything kind of person too. I do NOT think I was the main reason he cheated though but it was deffo the last straw for me. But you know what? I truly think I would have ended the marraige at some point anyway, because I had had enough of over the years trying to tell him and show him what I wanted/needed from the marriage. He was real quick to whine about the lack of sex, but also real quick to sit on his a$$ and do nothing to try to help change it. Then wondered WHY I didn't feel sexually charged towards him, gee I can't imagine why that would have been.

 

So I guess for me, and I can't speak for others, but in my case, it might have been a combination of things as to why he didn't get sex like he wanted. And you know what, you can tell or show a person all day long what you want or need etc, and they either get it, or they don't. In my case he didn't get it, pardon the pun.

[Ladyjane14]

That's what you got from what I said? Accepting some responsibility for initiating sex requires a women to be "a sex-slave within the home"? Not sure where that came from...

 

We're on the same page here - compromise is almost always the answer. A compromise in this situation would be "you do it sometimes and I'll do it sometimes. Since it's more important to me, I'll even do it more often then you". "I'll do it not EVER" doesn't strike me as a compromise.

 

 

I'm just trying to illustrate a point. A woman of low-libido ALREADY feels objectified. She doesn't WANT sex. She's not in the mood for it. It feels gross to have sexual contact when you're not in the least bit aroused. She's gonna grab the first reason she sees NOT to do it and run.

 

Men don't have sex when they don't want it. We've had quite a few women come through here lately telling us just that. If they're not aroused, they're not going to jump through hoops to get that way. And yet women seem to be expected to do just that. Not only does she need to mentally shift gears to get "in the mood", but now it appears she needs to remember to do that out of the clear blue sky and often enough to suit her mate.

 

Now, is she supposed to set the timer on her watch? ...use a calandar? ...or what?

 

She lacks impetus, because she lacks drive. She's NOT thinking about sex. And as hard as it is for some of these guys to hear, she's not interested as frequently as he is. If left up to a man with high libido, it's gonna be a daily event. If left up to a woman with low libido, it's gonna be every other month. So unless he wants her to be initiating requests for something she doesn't REALLY want, he's got a long-ass wait ahead of him.

 

I don't see any real compromise in expecting a woman like that to do BOTH jobs, plan it and execute it. If I'm required to be less than genuine... I don't want any part of it. And believe me, I've considered divorce in the past if for no other reason than to FINALLY make this problem go away.

 

You guys don't have any idea how nasty it feels to have someone touch you intimately when you don't want it. It's all you can do not to ball your fist up and punch that guy in the head. You do it just to shut him up and keep the peace, but during the time it takes to get it done... you hate his guts for making you feel that way.

 

THAT's what you're up against. And it's got nothing whatsoever to do with if she loves you or not. It has EVERYTHING to do with her body failing to function in a way that forwards sexual contact. The ingredients are just not there.

 

When you consider that women rely on basically two anatomical systems, reproductive and adrenal, to get the job done and BOTH of these systems are in a very delicate state of balance... you begin to understand the logistics of the problem. We have very little testosterone to work with when compared to our male counterparts. Men produce TWENTY times as much. Women tend to peak during their twenties, and then begin to decline in testosterone production over the course of their lives. The majority of her testosterone supply is produced by the ovaries, so as she ages, reproduces, and particularly as we manipulate her chemical balance through modern birth control... she's in danger of having her libido thrown completely off.

 

The smart man will learn to bypass the reproductive system and work the adrenals, where you have access to big "feel good" neurotransmitters like dopamine. Why do you think a woman who's cheating puts out for the OM after having fobbed her husband off for years? ... It's because she's on the receiving end of those "in love" chemicals.

 

This has NOTHING to do with REAL LOVE, guys. It's largely phyisological. Once you wrap your mind around that, you begin to see that your woman isn't avoiding you just to hurt you. The cause for building resentment is eliminated. There's no reason NOT to work with her and to encourage her to work with you.

[Ladyjane14]

Now, minutes after my last post, which was all about understanding your woman when she's suffering with low-libido... I'm going to appear to contradict myself.

 

When you think about the adrenal system, it's not just kick-started by incidents that make you feel good. If you think about something basic, like adrenaline, you realize it's produced by excitement and fun (like riding a rollercoaster) and by fear and anxiety (like the near miss of an auto accident).

 

Pink Tulip and I arrived at the same destination in our conclusions. But apparently, she's not a thick-headed as I am. It wasn't until the fat was really in the fire that I was willing to reexamine my position. I was quite literally sick from all the activity in my adrenal system. I lost twenty pounds in a month, but my mind was focused like an arrow on my husband and on WHY we'd come to the place we were at in our marriage.

 

 

 

 

I think women need 3 men in there lives:

 

Nice Guy: for an understanding friend who doesnt look at them sexually.

 

Moralistic and Honorable Guy: To act as faithful husband and father and also the person who takes half the burden of the daily routine of being in a family.

 

Badboy jerk: To service them in the bedroom

 

Something's been bothering me about this post ever since TMW rolled it on. And I think I've finally figured out what it is... if not how to accomplish it.

 

I think a woman does need all three of those guys. She just needs 'em wrapped up in one man.

 

My man kind of IS all three of those guys. I refer to the "badboy jerk" portion of him as "high-maintenance", but essentially it all boils down to the same thing. There's no way he would EVER have tolerated a true dearth of sex within his marriage. He's grumbled his way through dry spells and pity f*cks... but never has he encountered an absolute refusal from his wife in accomodating him. In 25 years he's never gone longer than two or three weeks without, excepting for pregnancy and childbirth related issues, and even then he had some accomodation.

 

Fact is... he'd have blown a gasket and dumped my ass. This is kind of like his policy on me cheating. There's no doubt in my mind that if I had EVER cheated, he'd have divorced me in a skinny minute. We both have ZERO TOLERANCE for it. That policy has kept me on the straight and narrow for over a quarter century. Him too, as far as physical adultery is concerned.

 

That said, I still managed to catch him two weeks short of it.

His dissatisfaction at the loss of passion combined with the fact that I hadn't given him ENOUGH CAUSE to actually pick up and leave, very nearly broke his resolve. I'm thinking his master-plan was to cheat on me until either I caught him and tossed him out, or he worked up the nerve to get out on his own.

 

So yeah, all in all... he's a nice guy. But only up to a point. Past that point, he's a bit difficult to deal with.

 

Do you think it's possible that some of you guys are a little too nice for your own good? Let's face it... the "badboy jerk" could give a rat's hind end about our feelings. Ultimately, he'll crash and burn because of it.. but he'll score big in the meantime.

 

I'm just thinking out loud here... but maybe the reason for his initial period of success is this... there's no confusion about what he is. He's a man. He doesn't identify with female issues or feelings, and he can't be expected to understand them. He doesn't care if that pisses us off. He views us as a commodity. We're expendable, easily replaced. Therefore, we must compete for his attention if we want it. This appeals to our vanity and gets those adrenals in gear. .... at least for a short while anyway. Eventually his act wears thin and he gets the boot. He doesn't really care though. He might fuss and whine for awhile, but as soon as he's on to the next woman, he's OVER it.

 

Somewhere in the middle, where the nice guy, the badboy, and honorable guy meet, there must be BALANCE. A good, steady man, who can only be pushed so far before he raises hell and either puts his house back in order or decides he's had enough.

 

I think the mistake most women make with men is that she forgets that he is what he is.... a man. Nothing more, nothing less. If that's not what she wanted when she signed on, better for her if she'd bought herself a dog. Dogs are easier to understand.

 

If a woman views her man through a female lens and tries to apply female thoughts and motives to him, she's bound for chaos. If she doesn't learn how his mind and body work, she can't begin to understand him. And truly, this goes both ways. You don't marry a woman and then apply the male motives to her. You'll just end up frustrated and angry.

 

Women don't cooperate with being misunderstood like you guys do. Overall, we're pretty good at expressing ourselves emotionally. We're not going to let you apply male standards to us. We're going to speak up and straighten that sh*t out. But... (did you hear that one coming?)... I'm thinking maybe some of you "nice guys" are allowing the female standard to be applied to YOU. You're 'buying in'.

 

When it comes to identifying and handling emotions... we've got you beat hands down with quicker processing time. While I do believe that both men and women are just as deep emotionally, capable of the exact same feelings... we've got the "interstate highway" and you've got the "winding country lane" when it comes down to processing them. A woman can guage your reaction, misinterpret it, and then set it in stone, before you've even had a chance to figure out exactly what it was you were feeling in the first place.

 

You end up running into a constant barrage of misunderstandings that don't end up getting resolved. You try talking. But by the time you've figured out that she's attributed motives to your words, she's had time to completely adopt those motives as irrevokable TRUTH. Worse, you can't win an argument if you're faced with emotions rather than logic. Because she's going to kick your ass six ways from Sunday if you start whipping out feelings. She has CORNERED that market, Bub.

 

Bottom line... every time you bring her your emotions, she trumps you with hers. Nice guys are going to allow her to do that, because they CARE how she feels. Badboy jerks are going to tell her to 'get stuffed', stomp out of the house, and then go sleep with her sister.

 

The badboy plays the MAN CARD. Game over.

 

Now... I have to wonder if there isn't some kind of middle ground between those two reactions. A woman who's mired in her own thinking, and unable to consider an alternative to her postition is almost impossible to budge. But witness those same women after they've had a crisis in their marriage, and excepting for the "right-fighters" in the group... they're ALL EARS.

 

Frankly, I haven't noticed a whole lot of couples who haven't had to 'take it to the wall' before they reach resolution. I'm wondering if a man who lets his inner "badboy jerk" kick-start those adrenals might not be able to follow up and smoothe things out afterward by utilizing his inner "nice guy"....alpha-male followed up by beta-male.

 

I'd never suggest cheating of course, but there are other alternatives available to the alpha-male. A week holed up in the Motel Six, telling her you need to figure out if you still want to be married or not can go a long, long way. ie. In Thumbs case, his wife came here to LS freaking out a while back when she realized that she'd finally gone too far and he was willing to end the marriage. At the time, she was VERY enthusiastic on the idea of making the marriage work. But apparently hasn't quite carried through on making the final leap in her mindset so that she's able to process male-based data.

 

Overall, women don't like it when men throw little-boy tantrums about not getting what they want. The man rants, pouts, and threatens... but we know a bluff when we see it. Let that same man indicate that he's willing to put his money where his mouth is though... and we're falling all over ourselves to fix it.

I have to wonder if the adrenal system is engaged when that happens.

 

The trouble with this strategy is that it's DANGEROUS. A man who's married to a true "right-fighter" is going to see a woman defend her position and NEVER back down. And even if he manages to get his message across to a woman of regular sensibilities, she's apt to backslide if she doesn't commit herself to making that final leap in understanding.

 

All in all, I suppose it ends up being a matter of his priorities. Does he want the marriage at all costs? Or is he willing to gamble with it in order to achieve his goals? How thick is the brick wall he's facing?

[tommyr]

She doesn't WANT sex. She's not in the mood for it. It feels gross to have sexual contact when you're not in the least bit aroused. She's gonna grab the first reason she sees NOT to do it and run.

 

Damn! I always suspected this, but somehow it just seemed too impossible to believe. Now there it is, in black and white. The cold, hard TRUTH. And its not from some crazy anonymous internet person whom I could simply dismiss. Its straight from an authoritative source: someone with an impressive history of honesty and insight.

 

Feels like when I first heard Step 1 (of the Alcoholics Anonymous 12-step program). Hope I have the courage to go on with my sexless marriage recovery, but just maybe it will work (one day at a time?).