Prudence Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Sometimes when a man "loses interest", it's because his testosterone level is down. This can be checked by a simple blood test and treated with replacement therapy. Sometimes it's the early onset of ED, which is often associated with other physical ailments like diabetes and hypertension. Sometimes... it's just a personality issue and he's simply not all that interested in sex. I do think it's important to rule out medical causes though. A man who's lost interest in sex ought to be encouraged to have a full work-up with his doctor. Sexual health is often fairly indicative of a man's general state of health. Hi LadyJane, I bet he has low testosterone. And he's had problems with erections, I don't know if it's technically ED. He is also overweight and that does not help things. But I don't want to make it seem like the problems are all his, they're not. I just remember previous boyfriends and sex was much easier and more, um, natural? It didn't take as much "work" as it does with my husband. And while the "work" can be fun, it just make things always have to happen in a certain order and basically, I'm pretty sure he'd just rather have a blow job than intercourse. Thank you for talking to me about this. I can only post on this board from home when my husband is gone or in the other room, so sorry if I can't post very quickly.
fromtheotherside Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Mr. Lucky, your first point is well taken. As for the question about why it took marriage...well, I don't know if I know right now. Maybe I just finally got fed up with no sex. And I think I've become dependent myself on his emotional support. I've had some major stressful events recently and they have caused some issues to crop up. I won't make any major decisions while going through this period, but I'm trying to take stock of what really matters. We are going to try marriage counseling. I don't want to bore anyone with boring details, but I do appreciate your talking to me about it because I don't really have anyone else to talk to right now, and it's good to get some objective perspective. My husband has said that he does not consider himself a sexual person. He said that before, when our sex life was better, so it isn't really related to us. And I've got some inhibition issues which may have affected him, but I don't know, he's never said so. I appreciate your thoughts. Hi Prudence, I have read all your posts along with the replies and I do appreciate all the different viewpoints. This is my first post here also. Let me begin by revealing that I identify as a hetero-romantic asexual female. In a nutshell it means that means I am romantically attracted to certain men but do not feel SEXUALLY attracted to them. This is a sexual orientation just like heterosexual, homosexual and bi-sexual. I have always been this way-which is probably why my life has taken the course that it has. Next I need to explain the differences in some words that are used regularly. Let's begin with: Heterosexual sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex Homosexual sexually attracted to members of the same sex Bi-sexual sexually attracted to members of both sexes Asexual a person who feels NO sexual attraction to either sex Libido/sex drive purely physical need completely controlled by hormones. Sexual desire This is the mental/physcological part that comes from the way we are "wired" Affection An action of love that is NOT sexual. Hugs, kisses, cards, gifts, words of endearment etc. Affection is highly important in it's own right and should be part of any relationship. Affection by itself should not always "lead to more". Creates a loving environment 24/7. Foreplay A different type of affection that will probably lead to sexual activity. I am living proof that a person can be highly attracted to another without the need to engage in any sexual act. There are millions of other people that feel the way I do. We "gather" on a site called AVEN-www.asexuality.org I noted in your posts that you NEVER stated your husband "lost his desire" however you did note that he stated he was never sexual. I can totally relate to that b/c for years I went through life thinking I was broken, damaged and messed up. My "lack of desire" has been blamed on rape, early childhood sexual abuse and a host of other "causes". When I found asexuality.org I was totally enlighentened! What a revelation! Let me go on to explain that being asexual in no way means not able or willing to have sex. Many asexuals have sex with their SO out of love for them. Some even may feel pleasure. The ranges of feelings go from some pleasure to nothing to boring to annoying all the way to disgust and revulsion. Many asexuals choose to remain celibate. The difference is that we just don't ever think about being that way with another person. Asexuals have different levels of affection too...varying from wanting to cuddle/kiss a lot to some not wanting to be touched at all. Each person is individual. Now let's talk about connection. The general drift I have been able to pick up is that sexual people are trying to connect with their SO by using sex to do so. For me (and most other asexuals) I need that intense emotional connection BEFORE I would be able to let someone do that to me. The reason it has to be so intense is that the bond has to be almost "unbreakable". You see, to me sexual activity drives a wedge into the relationship. It took many years of sexual activity for me to figure this out...I was trying to be "normal". Now I know I need to be me. I've read from sexuals that when they don't get sex they feel unloved, rejected, depressed, humiliated, disconnected etc. Well, when I have to have sex I feel used, degraded, devalued, humiliated, unloved, depressed and above all DISCONNECTED. IMO sexual people tie love and sex together; to an asexual, love and sex are completely separate. I guess it's why I feel the "wedge." Please if you get the chance go to the site and read...it may help you understand better. Also understand that therapy will not "undo" the damage of being asexual. It's not damage-it's an orientation. We are wired that way. I personally like it b/c I can love immensly and freely w/o the incumbrances of a physical relationship. 3 times in my life I have had this intense emotional connection that I speak of. Once (my first love) when I was 16. He died years ago in a bike accident. Once again right after I got divorced @ age 21. He is my soulmate. Then again in the last 3 years. Keep in mind that I asked for none of these to happen. I did however learn some things: If a connection happens, it cannot be stopped. It will ALWAYS be there. A connection cannot be forced. I tried to force it w/ my husband. He is a good man but there is nothing there. After 18 years I feel empty w/o that emotional connection. After 26 years I still have that intense emotional connection w/ my soulmate. By the way...NONE of my connections have ever led to sex yet are extremely affectionate. They are all sexual guys too but b/c the connection is so strong, it seems they really don't need sex to feel connected to me. If I were to ever become a couple with one of them however, sex would probably be introduced. I'll cross that bridge when and if I get to it. In the meantime, I left my husband a letter explaining "me" to him and still have not received a response. I told him years ago that he is free to get that "need " filled elsewhere if he wants. He replied "I want it with you-not someone else". I no longer can do that for him. It got so bad I developed a severe aversion to the whole thing. Again, this is b/c there is no connection... I do hope some of the posters are open-minded enough to read up on asexuality...it may explain some things and why some spouses are the way they are. Also please do not think I am discounting any medical reasons. Certainly if one feels they have "lost" something it should be checked out. Also asexuality should not be confused with SAD (sexual aversion disorder) or Sexual Arousal Disorder. Something becomes a disorder if it causes distress in ones' life. From the other side
Ladyjane14 Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 ...I tried to force it w/ my husband. He is a good man but there is nothing there. After 18 years I feel empty w/o that emotional connection.... ...In the meantime, I left my husband a letter explaining "me" to him and still have not received a response. I told him years ago that he is free to get that "need " filled elsewhere if he wants. He replied "I want it with you-not someone else". I no longer can do that for him. It got so bad I developed a severe aversion to the whole thing. Again, this is b/c there is no connection.... Am I understanding you right? You were married to your husband for 18 years, during which time he was apparently unfulfilled sexually within the marriage. And after nearly TWO DECADES, you dropped the "asexuality" bomb on him in a letter. (????) If that's how it happened... that guy just wasted 18 good years of his life. :eek: You know, I realize that you've stated that you didn't know that you were "asexual", but did it never occur to you during all those years that maybe your husband deserved a life partner who could give him what he needed from the relationship? Seriously, the mind boggles! If I walk a mile in this guy's shoes... I've spent 18 years feeling like a f*cking pervert, wondering if it's my breath or my technique or what. Well if I'm understanding your story correctly, I just hope you're generous at the settlement table. You can't give all those years back to your husband, but you can at least refrain from picking his pockets on the way out the door. Damn. It's no wonder there wasn't any "emotional connection".
silktricks Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 I would feel trapped and angry, unless there was a physical reason for the sexlessness, and my husband understood my dilemma and worked with me on it. Someone earlier in this thread said that denying your marriage mate sex is a form of cheating. I agree with this statement. Unless it's been made totally clear prior to the marriage that sex is not going to be a part of the relationship, then as far as I personally would be concerned, it would be a deal breaker. I would not cheat, I would leave.
MySugaree Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Am I understanding you right? You were married to your husband for 18 years, during which time he was apparently unfulfilled sexually within the marriage. And after nearly TWO DECADES, you dropped the "asexuality" bomb on him in a letter. (????) If that's how it happened... that guy just wasted 18 good years of his life. :eek: You know, I realize that you've stated that you didn't know that you were "asexual", but did it never occur to you during all those years that maybe your husband deserved a life partner who could give him what he needed from the relationship? Seriously, the mind boggles! If I walk a mile in this guy's shoes... I've spent 18 years feeling like a f*cking pervert, wondering if it's my breath or my technique or what. Well if I'm understanding your story correctly, I just hope you're generous at the settlement table. You can't give all those years back to your husband, but you can at least refrain from picking his pockets on the way out the door. Damn. It's no wonder there wasn't any "emotional connection". LJ, you said it better than I ever could. The mind boggles...
fromtheotherside Posted February 23, 2007 Posted February 23, 2007 Am I understanding you right? You were married to your husband for 18 years, during which time he was apparently unfulfilled sexually within the marriage. And after nearly TWO DECADES, you dropped the "asexuality" bomb on him in a letter. (????) If that's how it happened... that guy just wasted 18 good years of his life. :eek: You know, I realize that you've stated that you didn't know that you were "asexual", but did it never occur to you during all those years that maybe your husband deserved a life partner who could give him what he needed from the relationship? Seriously, the mind boggles! If I walk a mile in this guy's shoes... I've spent 18 years feeling like a f*cking pervert, wondering if it's my breath or my technique or what. Well if I'm understanding your story correctly, I just hope you're generous at the settlement table. You can't give all those years back to your husband, but you can at least refrain from picking his pockets on the way out the door. Damn. It's no wonder there wasn't any "emotional connection". Let me begin with this: I always knew I was like this however there was never a name for it. He knew FROM THE VERY BEGINNING that I had NO INTEREST in anything sexual. He also knew what I had been through in the past. I laid EVERYTHING on the table. He is thankfully NOT a very sexual guy. He could take it or leave it and he has the total freedom to leave anytime he feels the need to. Do not ASSUME that he was not "sexually fulfilled". I did my duty as long as I could. From what I understand, he has ED problems anyway. One more thing...I have always been uncomfortable talking to him avout things that are on my mind. And...sex is something that I feel totally uncomfortable even mentioning. So, I write it out. It's the best way of communicating with him. It gives him time to absorb what I'm trying to say and digest it on his own time. "Breaks the ice" if you please. "Dropping a bomb" as you so eloquently put it was the only choice I had. Was on the AVEN website and knew right away. I considered it a huge breakthrough. Next, I told him many years ago that if he wanted a divorce it would be ok by me. However he decided that we have too many other things that are much more important here between us. You state here: Seriously, the mind boggles! If I walk a mile in this guy's shoes... I've spent 18 years feeling like a f*cking pervert, wondering if it's my breath or my technique or what. I would like to know why you would think that he feels this way. Is it b/c *I* don't like sexual behaviour? Please fill me in as I'm curious. Besides, I really don't think most sexual people are perverts. I'm sure there are plenty who are/ "Perverted" is an objective term anyway. What one considers perverted someone else may consider normal. As far as the "settlement table" we are equals here...we both worked equally hard to get where we are and neither of us wants to throw in the towel. You state here: You know, I realize that you've stated that you didn't know that you were "asexual", but did it never occur to you during all those years that maybe your husband deserved a life partner who could give him what he needed from the relationship? I believe everyone deserves to get what they need from a relationship. When I got involved I used my head, NOT my heart. He is a good man and I thought I would "learn" to love him. The other problem is that I really don't believe that either one of us *knew* what we needed. I mean...no one ever taught us that stuff. It's a guessing game, a learning process. I also spent many years "trying to fix" myself all the while thinking there was something inherently "wrong" with me. He also knew (lke I stated earlier) how I was. He thought by treating me better than I was used to that it would "fix" the problem. Neither one of us knew... You state here: Damn. It's no wonder there wasn't any "emotional connection". Exactly HOW do you think an emotional connection happens? Would love to know what your opinion is on this. I learn more every day on this subject and all the information I have received on the subject is wonderful. It helps me understand human behaviour much better than I did before. As I stated in an earlier post, an emotional connection CANNOT be forced, it either happens or it doesn't. If sex was necesary to "create" an emotional connection, how would one explain the 3 that I've been so lucky to have had? NONE of then have ever been sexual. It took me many years to learn this. How I wish I had known *sigh* it would have saved much heartache. I am sorry if I offended anybody here. Perhaps my side of the coin was not ready to be revealed. I also know that it's hard to be open-minded about this since much of the world seems to *revolve* around sex. It's everywhere-tv, magazines, radio...so when someone like me is willing to share our outlook, we often get chastised for feeling the way we do. From the other side;)
fromtheotherside Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 I would feel trapped and angry, unless there was a physical reason for the sexlessness, and my husband understood my dilemma and worked with me on it. Someone earlier in this thread said that denying your marriage mate sex is a form of cheating. I agree with this statement. Unless it's been made totally clear prior to the marriage that sex is not going to be a part of the relationship, then as far as I personally would be concerned, it would be a deal breaker. I would not cheat, I would leave. I understand exactly what you are saying here. And to think of it as a form of cheating is definitely one way of looking at it. May I ask you exactly what, in your opinion, would you consider a physical reason to "deny" sex? I only ask out of sheer curiosity as it helps me understand human nature. If you would rather leave than cheat, BRAVO to you! Most would cheat (not purposely but due to human nature). From the other side
fromtheotherside Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 To all on this thread-oh the heck-to ANYBODY that is interested. I'm not really sure how much is understood about orientation. For what it's worth, it's part of who we are. By trying to provide some possible explanations on this board, I knew it would bring back some rather strong responses. This reaction is quite normal. For years I also assumed (wrongly) that it was not normal to not want sex. Or have sexual desires. Or want to "be desired" that way. Well, I have discovered that it IS normal-for me and millions of others too-that I'm not broken nor damaged. The difference is that it's not too common. It's now known that at least 1% of the population is asexual-possibly as much as 2-3%. Not a lot, but we are there. It is also known that asexual is a true orientation just like lesbian, gay, hetero and bi. Don't yet know why some are wired differently, just know that we are. I've spent most of my adult life trying to "fix" something that is not broken. It's caused much distress in my life along with my husbands'. At least now that I know what the "problem" is, I no longer feel suicidal, my depression is gone and I have the rest of my life to look forward to. I imagine many others that struggle with similar feelings are relieved too when they finally figure themselves out. To LadyJane: I've read many of your posts and find them very informative. You seem like a very intelligent person. I would like to fill in the gaps here if it will help you understand why I wrote what I did. #1 I was very honest from the beginning about my priorities as far as relationships. In no way did I lead my husband on to believe he would be with some sort of "sex goddess". He was fully informed of my past and he was fine with it. Please consider at the time that I thought I was damaged from my first marriage (he was a drunk, drugged-up wife-abuser who performed marital rape, sodomy and horrible beatings regularily). I was very young (17) when I married him (long story) and I was thankful that I got out alive with my 2 kids. Granted, I did suffer damage (PTSD) from this (am currently in therapy). I was alone for over 10 years. Had no desire to be in a relationship. (geez...I wonder why??) My husband kept on pursuing me even though I really didn't want to be involved. I knew what I would have to do in a relationship and knew how much grief it would cause. We became friends ( I was happy with that) and began spending more time together. He tried so hard to treat me better than I was used to. After a couple of years, he slowly tried to get physical (very slowly) and since I have trouble pushing away (and I cared about him) I kept telling myself "he cares and is willing to try so what would it hurt to see what would happen?" In the beginning I could deal with it although I never got anything out of it. Most times it was just plain uncomfortable, other times I would need to detach. I didn't even realize I was dissassociating until I had read a few years ago about PTSD symptoms. I immediately located a therapist that specializes in PTSD and have been there since. The symptoms began worsening when I found that I was no longer able to dissassociate. That's when the flashbacks and nightmares began-or should I say I realized what they were. So all this time I was getting these symptoms and nobody, NOBODY could explain what was happening. Thank goodness for message boards. Someone on one of the boards I frequent stated that she had similar symptoms and perhaps I should research it. Previously I had been in therapy (many different therapists) for depression. Never any results. That's b/c the problem wasn't depression, it was PTSD. The depression was a symptom, not the cause! In any case I was leading up to the orientation part. I believe that what happened to me in the past was partly due to my being asexual-partly due to my age. That idiot(being nice here)beat me and forced me b/c I couldn't react to his advances. Anyone that has been to therapy knows all to well that one needs to "search their past" for clues. Looking back on my puberty years I was different even then. All the girls would go ga-ga over certain boys. Not me. I mean when I look at a good-looking guy I see just that. A good-looking guy. The ladies see "hot", nice ass etc. I see a whole person that I may want to get to know better. Never have I EVER looked at a guy and thought "wow, would I like to jump his bones". I just don't see people that way. One more thing...I explained to husband immediately (on paper) about the discovery. Nothing was kept from him. For us it's easier to do things this way. What I told him would have been no different if I had discovered that I was lesbian or bisexual. It's an orientation. It's what makes me who I am. It's not a behaviour. Behaviour can be changed/modified. Orientation can't. Who knows? Maybe after some symptoms subside, I would be willing to let him try again. By the way...he is ok with my discovery. He's just glad that I'm not broken and that he didn't mess me up. He will take matters into his own hands (pun intended) until I am ready. No one knows what it's like to struggle with sexuality unless they have had to do it themselves. #2 The comment about "picking HIS pockets"was totally uncalled for. I make more than he does and have put more into the joint belongings here. Just b/c I am a woman does not mean that HE supports me. This is a joint effort. We share that 50-50. As far as the years that we BOTH put into this, he was free to go if he wanted to years ago. I am not tying him here nor am I leading him on. I'm the one that wanted to go. He begged me to stay. I do not mean that in a patronizing way. Just stating the truth. We have a partnership-it's just not an emotional one. Not most peoples' choice but it works for us. #3 I do hope this clears up any misunderstanding of my story... From the other side
silktricks Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 I understand exactly what you are saying here. And to think of it as a form of cheating is definitely one way of looking at it. May I ask you exactly what, in your opinion, would you consider a physical reason to "deny" sex? I only ask out of sheer curiosity as it helps me understand human nature. I don't think I used the word "deny". What I meant was a physical inability to have sex the "normal" way.
Prudence Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 Hi fromtheotherside, Interesting. I didn't really think about the asexual angle. So you never have a physical desire for sex? You don't get, you know, horny? I will look at that website. I'm not sure if my husband is asexual because he does enjoy masturbation. I'm pretty sure he prefers that over sex because it's easier, and especially since we've had problems and he has erection problems. It's interesting that you mention people used to tell you your asexuality, or lack of sexual feelings, was due to things like abuse. My husband was sexually abused when he was younger and it's had a great impact on him. So, coincidental that you'd mention that. Thank you for your input and thoughts!
Prudence Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 Now let's talk about connection. The general drift I have been able to pick up is that sexual people are trying to connect with their SO by using sex to do so. ... I've read from sexuals that when they don't get sex they feel unloved, rejected, depressed, humiliated, disconnected etc. Well, when I have to have sex I feel used, degraded, devalued, humiliated, unloved, depressed and above all DISCONNECTED. IMO sexual people tie love and sex together; to an asexual, love and sex are completely separate. I guess it's why I feel the "wedge." From the other side I don't feel like this is true for me. I think I want sex because I want the physical act. There may be times when it's more about emotional connection, but most of the time I just want the experience (just not with some stranger). Can't speak for everyone, though, and I may be unusual.
MrsHellFire Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 Be careful what you ask for. I know at times years ago I've thought, "I wish he would just stop asking me to have sex all the time and just not have a desire for it". My wish kind of came true and he stopped asking and he was going through a tough time with medications.. and I realized how awful it was.. it became more like friendship it seemed. No, I couldn't live in a fulfilling relationship without sex. I love making love to him and thats all folks. At least a few times a week although daily would be better for me. I think my sex drive is surpassing his lately.
Ladyjane14 Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 I'm wondering if you've read this thread in it's entirety, fromtheotherside. (????) Or if you've read any of the other threads we've had from folks who aren't having sexual needs met within their marriage. If you have, and you still can't empathize with the pain and loss these people are dealing with... then there's literally nothing I could say to you that you'd be able to understand. If you don't have that empathy inside you already, you just wouldn't "get" it. I'm glad that you posted on this thread though. I think maybe it might be of great value to some readers out there who are trying to make a decision on whether their relationship is salvageable or not. You've shown them what I think is 'the worst case scenario' in alot of ways. And while your case is a particularly sad one, I think it's highly illustrative of the NEED to address sexual dysfunction within the marriage.... and to do it in a TIMELY way. There's nearly nothing that I can say to you that's NOT going to come out hurtful...so I'll keep it brief. Based on your posts, I see you as a perpetual victim, and your husband as some misguided "Prince Charming" who's thrown his life away in a grand attempt to make you whole. You had some bad things happen to you, but he is the one who's ended up paying for them in the long run, and apparently is STILL paying. I see a man without emotional/physical intimacy from his life partner, a man who's living as a roommate rather than a lover. You asked me about "emotional connections" earlier, so I'll tell you this much... Love is a choice. Emotional connections don't just happen. We MAKE them happen. We choose them. We nurture them. It's the least complicated thing EVER if we put the appropriate energy into it. All it takes is two people who really want it and are willing to prioritize each other. Unfortunately based on the information you've given us, I'm inclined to think that while your husband seems intent on continuing to prioritize you, there's no meaningful reciprocity on your part. I find that terribly sad.
fromtheotherside Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 Hi fromtheotherside, Interesting. I didn't really think about the asexual angle. So you never have a physical desire for sex? You don't get, you know, horny? I will look at that website. I'm not sure if my husband is asexual because he does enjoy masturbation. I'm pretty sure he prefers that over sex because it's easier, and especially since we've had problems and he has erection problems. It's interesting that you mention people used to tell you your asexuality, or lack of sexual feelings, was due to things like abuse. My husband was sexually abused when he was younger and it's had a great impact on him. So, coincidental that you'd mention that. Thank you for your input and thoughts! Hi Prudence, Please understand that no one can decide if your husband is asexual except him. I thought maybe the site could possibly open up another angle. In answer to your questions: I have never had any desire to have sex with another person. Don't think I would even know what it feels like (lol) nor do I understand what "horny" feels like. Don't get me wrong...many asexuals have a very high sex drive, but they have no DESIRE to engage in sex with another person. Those that get this urge usually desire to take matters into their own hands. I'm sorry to hear about his abuse. NO ONE should ever have to endure that-especially a child! If you do decide to check out the site I would love to know what you think. There are plenty of sexual people that post on it. Most are involved with asexuals. This is where you will be able to get some vital information-from BOTH sides! No one there is casting blame or chastising anyone. Everyone is welcome. I hope you can find some stable ground and are able to come to terms with your differences. Remember, even with two sexual people, there still may be tremendous variances in desires and drives. It's finding the middle ground-one that satisfies both-that's the hard part. If one (or both)has to compromise (sacrifice), resentful feelings will set in which in turn creates well...not-so-nice behavior. (((((Prudence))))) Hugs to you!! From the other side
fromtheotherside Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 I don't feel like this is true for me. I think I want sex because I want the physical act. There may be times when it's more about emotional connection, but most of the time I just want the experience (just not with some stranger). Can't speak for everyone, though, and I may be unusual. I was kind of...well...generalizing on this. Whatever works for you! I don't get any emotional connection from it nor do I feel anything good. I do know something is happening to my body but it's not a nice feeling. If you enjoy the feelings then by all means, do whatever you like. From the other side
fromtheotherside Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 I'm wondering if you've read this thread in it's entirety, fromtheotherside. (????) Or if you've read any of the other threads we've had from folks who aren't having sexual needs met within their marriage. If you have, and you still can't empathize with the pain and loss these people are dealing with... then there's literally nothing I could say to you that you'd be able to understand. If you don't have that empathy inside you already, you just wouldn't "get" it. I'm glad that you posted on this thread though. I think maybe it might be of great value to some readers out there who are trying to make a decision on whether their relationship is salvageable or not. You've shown them what I think is 'the worst case scenario' in alot of ways. And while your case is a particularly sad one, I think it's highly illustrative of the NEED to address sexual dysfunction within the marriage.... and to do it in a TIMELY way. There's nearly nothing that I can say to you that's NOT going to come out hurtful...so I'll keep it brief. Based on your posts, I see you as a perpetual victim, and your husband as some misguided "Prince Charming" who's thrown his life away in a grand attempt to make you whole. You had some bad things happen to you, but he is the one who's ended up paying for them in the long run, and apparently is STILL paying. I see a man without emotional/physical intimacy from his life partner, a man who's living as a roommate rather than a lover. You asked me about "emotional connections" earlier, so I'll tell you this much... Love is a choice. Emotional connections don't just happen. We MAKE them happen. We choose them. We nurture them. It's the least complicated thing EVER if we put the appropriate energy into it. All it takes is two people who really want it and are willing to prioritize each other. Unfortunately based on the information you've given us, I'm inclined to think that while your husband seems intent on continuing to prioritize you, there's no meaningful reciprocity on your part. I find that terribly sad. I have read this thread in it's entirety and I DO empathize. I do "get it" and I can see that possibly you "don't get it" on my end. I understand that some people are not getting their needs filled by NOT getting sex. I am the "other side". The side that needs NOT to have sex. IMO if a purely physical "need" ( I say it this way b/c one will NOT die w/o it) is enough to end an otherwise great relationship, then perhaps some negotiation may be in order. Let me ask this: Why is it ALWAYS the one that "needs" the sex is the one who is always right? I understand that it is right if it's *you* so how could the other person be right-they must be wrong...right? See what I'm getting at here? In other words, each thinks they are right in their own way. Right? The next step is to do exactly what you asked me-empathize. Try to see the other persons' viewpoint. I do see from many posts the frustration...and that alone must be horrible. I do not wish that on anyone. Next, I want to address dysfunction. An orientation is NOT a dysfunction. It is perhaps a misplacement. Mine is probably the easiest to work with in the longrun. Since I am not bisexual or lesbian there is no doubt that I am not attracted to other women. Ever ask a lesbian to picture herself sexually with a man? I did. I have a friend who is and she was married to a man twice. She nearly threw up. It disgusted her! I also had mentioned it to my therapist. She has counseled many gays and lesbians. She stated similar reactions. I am NOT a perpetual victim. What happened was long ago. The PTSD sometimes takes years to come out. Do the research on it. Some people go through clild sexual abuse and have no idea until they reach their 70's. When they finally look back at their lives, they begin to understand why they are the way they are. Why they react the way they do. All the whys get answered. Believe me, if I had a choice it would never have come out. But-since it has, I know one thing. The healing has begun. It will take time for sure. I am a survivor and will continue to growand learn from it. Now I will address the emotional connection part. You asked me about "emotional connections" earlier, so I'll tell you this much... Love is a choice. Emotional connections don't just happen. We MAKE them happen. We choose them. We nurture them. It's the least complicated thing EVER if we put the appropriate energy into it. All it takes is two people who really want it and are willing to prioritize each other. Love is NOT a choice. It is an emotion. Emotions are NOT a choice. How we ACT on our emotions IS a choice. We do not choose emotions. If that were true than no one would ever become angry. Who WANTS to be angry? Not me! We can nuture them though. That is a behavior that we choose. This is one of the first exercises I learned in therapy...the difference between feelings/emotions and thoughts and how to separate them. Emotional connections happen or they don't. If they happen, they can be nurtured. If they don't, they cannot be forced. Just one more thing therapy has made me realize. It's in every self help book too... If love were a choice, it wouldn't be so hard to get over when someone breaks your heart. One could just CHOOSE to get over it by thinking the pain away. If only it were so easy... There's nearly nothing that I can say to you that's NOT going to come out hurtful...so I'll keep it brief. Based on your posts, I see you as a perpetual victim, and your husband as some misguided "Prince Charming" who's thrown his life away in a grand attempt to make you whole. You had some bad things happen to you, but he is the one who's ended up paying for them in the long run, and apparently is STILL paying. I see a man without emotional/physical intimacy from his life partner, a man who's living as a roommate rather than a lover My husband is not the least bit emotional. Unfortunately I'm the emotional one here. Many times he has dismissed my emotions as not necessary. Doesn't understand why I would possibly want to actually have a conversation with another person. Whether he wants to make me "whole"? I don't need another human to make me whole. No one does. My stuff will work itself out. I'm past the worst part now so am looking at smooth sailing from here on in. Evidently his priorities are such that sex is at the bottom of his list. He says it would be nice once in a while but it's not necessary. I will state it again...he is free to go anytime he wants. If he feels that he needs more than I can give him, who am I to stop him? I want to address the term "lover". Lover to me means someone who wants to be with you as you are; as a whole person, faults and all. Not someone who loves you for what you can provide for them. It's nice to be provided for too but IMO it should be a *fringe benefit*. My relationship may not fit the average or *normal* but to each his own. What may be *right* for one couple may be totally off base for another. I believe in live and let live. Whatever works. I'm sorry that you think I am such a cold-hearted person. If I was IRL, people would not come to me when they need to talk, need a shoulder to cry on, need emotional support. The reason I posted on here was just that. I saw many people that were at their wits end trying to figure out what THEY did wrong. What was it about THEM that made their SO reject them. I'm here to open it up from the other side-to show them it's NOT them. It's not a personal rejection. I understand that it's human nature to take it personally. All I'm saying is that there is always another side to what's happening. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad to try and see "the dark side" LOL. You think it's easy being asexual?? The ribbing I get. The comments: "You're kidding! Everybody LOVES sex! What's WRONG with you??" AVEN exists just b/c of insensitive comments like the ones I described. It's there to help people in your situation AND mine. It's a warm environment. Everybody is welcome. No ranting, accusing, blaming. Just matter-of-fact real people calmly discussing you-name-it. It may give some insight to what you're going through. One of the posters there came from a sexless marriage forum. He now sees "the other side" and is quite at home. He has invited many other posters who in turn now find themselves at home there too. What have you got to lose? Nothing. *You* have everything to gain. Best wishes to all:) From the other side
Ripples Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 Love is NOT a choice. It is an emotion. Emotions are NOT a choice. How we ACT on our emotions IS a choice. We do not choose emotions. If that were true than no one would ever become angry. Who WANTS to be angry? Not me! We can nuture them though. That is a behavior that we choose. This is one of the first exercises I learned in therapy...the difference between feelings/emotions and thoughts and how to separate them. Emotional connections happen or they don't. If they happen, they can be nurtured. If they don't, they cannot be forced. Just one more thing therapy has made me realize. It's in every self help book too... If love were a choice, it wouldn't be so hard to get over when someone breaks your heart. One could just CHOOSE to get over it by thinking the pain away. If only it were so easy... I believe that you're wrong. No emotion is born without a thought behind it. If that weren't the case it would be impossible to 'get over' anything. One would be in a particular emotion or emotions for eternity. If you change your thoughts about someone, a scenario, one's emotions about that situation will also change. Getting over the break up with a loved one, as everyone has done at some point or other, entails a whole regiment of changes of thought, ending with "Actually, someone else will want me, s/he wasn't the only person whom I can be happy with." There are many people that are learning to control their thoughts and thus their emotions. They are learning that some thoughts they have are neither constructive nor accurate and are able to examine these thoughts before acting on the emotion they create and see that often times the thoughts can be replaced with more accurate ones, ones that will be constructive in creating an emotion that will be helpful to them and those around them. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm struggling at the moment with my own 'stinking thinker' (thank you LJ). However it is possible as has been demonstrated by many people, including myself in the last few months to a certain degree. You say "Also understand that therapy will not "undo" the damage of being asexual. It's not damage-it's an orientation. We are wired that way." And I believe that for some, that is entirely accurate. However, you have been damaged and I instinctively think that your asexuality is the result of that and not being 'wired differently'. I don't expect to change your own thoughts on your situation, and that's fine for me, I'm not here to badger you. I just want to give another opinion to balance your own.
fromtheotherside Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 I believe that you're wrong. No emotion is born without a thought behind it. If that weren't the case it would be impossible to 'get over' anything. One would be in a particular emotion or emotions for eternity. If you change your thoughts about someone, a scenario, one's emotions about that situation will also change. Getting over the break up with a loved one, as everyone has done at some point or other, entails a whole regiment of changes of thought, ending with "Actually, someone else will want me, s/he wasn't the only person whom I can be happy with." There are many people that are learning to control their thoughts and thus their emotions. They are learning that some thoughts they have are neither constructive nor accurate and are able to examine these thoughts before acting on the emotion they create and see that often times the thoughts can be replaced with more accurate ones, ones that will be constructive in creating an emotion that will be helpful to them and those around them. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm struggling at the moment with my own 'stinking thinker' (thank you LJ). However it is possible as has been demonstrated by many people, including myself in the last few months to a certain degree. You say "Also understand that therapy will not "undo" the damage of being asexual. It's not damage-it's an orientation. We are wired that way." And I believe that for some, that is entirely accurate. However, you have been damaged and I instinctively think that your asexuality is the result of that and not being 'wired differently'. I don't expect to change your own thoughts on your situation, and that's fine for me, I'm not here to badger you. I just want to give another opinion to balance your own. Hi Ripples, Research has proven that emotions are at the core of human behavior. It is fact that THOUGHTS ARE BORN WITH EMOTIONS BEHIND THEM. If it were the other way around, as you say, then newborn babies that are unable to think for themselves would never feel emotion. Even in the animal world emotions rule. What separates us from them is the ability to THINK about our actions vefore we do them. Cognitive behavior therapy is based on the belief that "thoughts control emotions". A "quick fix" for a problem. In fact what it does is teach a patient to *stuff* or *ignore*their feelings and "think" their way into feeling better. Never works for long...eventually the emotions need to come out and be dealt with. I understand why one would think this way however...of course it's very hard to "get over "something. Let's take the death of a loved one. Eventually the mourning will subside. We have all been there. It's a process-an emotional process. No matter how much thinking we do to get ourselves out of feeling the way we do, the process must go on. In time, as the process moves along, better feelings will begin to move forward to replace the bad feelings. Ever think about a loved one that you lost years later? I do. It brings out the sad feelings right away. They are not as bad but they are still there. You stated: And I believe that for some, that is entirely accurate. However, you have been damaged and I instinctively think that your asexuality is the result of that and not being 'wired differently'. You are free to believe what you want. However you were not around when I was a kid. This is the way I have ALWAYS been. When I was a teen, I had no idea that kids had these sexual thoughts. I had no interest in boys other than friends, someone to hang out with, buddies. I never got goo-goo eyed over any boys. I didn't have any idea what masturbation was nor was I ever curious. My first "boyfriend" was when I was 15. At that time I thought a boyfriend was someone to hang out with, go to the movies and concerts with etc. I had no ides that all the other "couples" were doing sexual stuff. I still had no interest. When he tried to touch me that way, I hated it. To this day I have NEVER experienced a sexual feeling or thought. I always believed (years ago) that sex was something that had to be done-there certainly was never anything even remotely pleasurable about it (to me). For goodness sake, I had no idea what oral sex was until I was married. I thought oral meant (don't laugh!!) talking about it! One of the exercises in therapy was to picture myself sexually with a woman. Ickkk!! What a stomach turner! Next was with a man. Not much better. It was the sexual thoughts that were the stomach turner...it's just NOT me. I believe that I was abused in that one relationship b/c I was unable to understand what a sexual person feels. This is b/c I AM asexual. Asexuality is NOT the result of damage. It's is inherently the way one is wired. Years of therapy have proven this to me. You stated: There are many people that are learning to control their thoughts and thus their emotions. They are learning that some thoughts they have are neither constructive nor accurate and are able to examine these thoughts before acting on the emotion they create I do agree that some thoughts can be destructive. This type of thought is created from the emotion of anger. Behavior modification therapy will help control that type of thought and replace it with a constructive one. Does that new thought now remove the anger? Of course not. It helps one deal with the emotion in a more rational manner. For this reason I do believe cognitive therapy has it's good points. Anger management is behavior modification therapy. Does it stop anger? Rather it teaches the patient how to deal with the emotion rationally. Cognitive therapy(behavior mod) may have helped put off the symptoms of PTSD but it will not and cannot hold them off forever. Emotions come from ones subconscious whereas thoughts are conscious. I understand you are not here to badger me and I appreciate your input. I value everyones' right to their opinion! From the other side
MySugaree Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 This Thread is reminiscent of one a couple of years ago when in the course of discussing child porn/sex abuse, the Thread was invaded by NAMBLA propagandists. There, these ideologically driven poster-invaders argued at great length why man-boy "love" is a civil right. Now, I'm not comparing the Asexual agenda with the Pederast agenda. (Asexuals do no harm unless, of course, they're in a relationship with a "Sexual"). Still, there are eerie similarities. Both propagandists employ identity politics and go on at great lengths to justify and legitimate their conditions. There's often a canned, unreal quality to the labored advocacy. This occasionally happens on LS. Personally, I remain of the opinion that, baring physical illness, asexuality in humans is a disordered state of being. Instead of being celebrated, it should be remedied. Human sexuality is much too important to sweep under any ideological rug.
Mr. Lucky Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 This Thread is reminiscent of one a couple of years ago when in the course of discussing child porn/sex abuse, the Thread was invaded by NAMBLA propagandists. There, these ideologically driven poster-invaders argued at great length why man-boy "love" is a civil right. Now, I'm not comparing the Asexual agenda with the Pederast agenda. (Asexuals do no harm unless, of course, they're in a relationship with a "Sexual"). Still, there are eerie similarities. Both propagandists employ identity politics and go on at great lengths to justify and legitimate their conditions. There's often a canned, unreal quality to the labored advocacy. This occasionally happens on LS. Personally, I remain of the opinion that, baring physical illness, asexuality in humans is a disordered state of being. Instead of being celebrated, it should be remedied. Human sexuality is much too important to sweep under any ideological rug. I think your point is well taken. fromtheotherside's entire asexual belief structure seems like an after-the-fact rationalization to justify her conduct. While I understand, given her background, how this could be a difficult issue for her, I think she lacks the moral courage to address it... Mr. Lucky
Ladyjane14 Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 I have read this thread in it's entirety and I DO empathize. I do "get it" and I can see that possibly you "don't get it" on my end. I understand that some people are not getting their needs filled by NOT getting sex. I am the "other side". The side that needs NOT to have sex. You're telling us you understand it, but in your comments below you prove to us that you don't. IMO if a purely physical "need" ( I say it this way b/c one will NOT die w/o it) is enough to end an otherwise great relationship, then perhaps some negotiation may be in order. Let me ask this: Why is it ALWAYS the one that "needs" the sex is the one who is always right? Sex is NOT a "purely physical need" within a committed relationship. It's an emotional need. If it wasn't... these people wouldn't be in emotional pain. They'd be masturbating and then moving on with their day. A relationship is "great" when it suits the needs of BOTH individuals within it. It is "great" when they develop unity as a TEAM. In a situation in which their needs are oppositional to the extent that one of the individuals must continually "lose"... they BOTH lose. They are a team. The couple entity will stand or fall united. If you are indeed an "asexual" by orientation, then what you've done is to bind a "heterosexual" into a marital agreement in which his ENs (emotional needs) can NEVER be fully met. So, your "otherwise great relationship" does not meet the standards of a "great marriage" if one partner's ENs consistently takes precedence over the other. This guy has been ripped off... and bless his heart, he doesn't even know it. There's BETTER to be had out in the world than what he knows. Next, I want to address dysfunction. An orientation is NOT a dysfunction. It's the Marriage which is "dysfunctional". It's not serving the needs of BOTH individuals. Ever ask a lesbian to picture herself sexually with a man? I did. I have a friend who is and she was married to a man twice. She nearly threw up. It disgusted her! Then perhaps it's wise if lesbians don't MARRY men. It might also be a good thing if "asexuals" didn't marry "sexuals". I am NOT a perpetual victim. What happened was long ago. Is you husband PAYING for someone else's mistreatment of you? I think he probably is. Because he's spent 18 years of his life with a frigid partner who has no "emotional connection" to him. And you told us yourself that you'd spent 10 years alone previous to that. That's 28 years altogether of avoiding "emotional connection" with men, save for the ones you found to be "safe" enough to perceive the connection as just "happening". Love is NOT a choice. It is an emotion. Emotions are NOT a choice. How we ACT on our emotions IS a choice. We do not choose emotions. If that were true than no one would ever become angry. Who WANTS to be angry? Not me! We can nuture them though. That is a behavior that we choose. This is one of the first exercises I learned in therapy...the difference between feelings/emotions and thoughts and how to separate them. Emotional connections happen or they don't. If they happen, they can be nurtured. If they don't, they cannot be forced. Just one more thing therapy has made me realize. It's in every self help book too... If love were a choice, it wouldn't be so hard to get over when someone breaks your heart. One could just CHOOSE to get over it by thinking the pain away. If only it were so easy... I can't disagree with you ENOUGH on this. I'm living proof that it's just not so. You can CHOOSE to love your partner. You can also CHOOSE to let an old partner go. If we are not in control of our emotions... then they are in control of us. Love is a VERB, not just a noun. Trust is a VERB, not just a noun. We can use our mental resources, resources MUCH more vast than that of other animals... and CHOOSE to forward our goals through action. It becomes simple. I love my husband because I choose to, and in so choosing... I act on that decision demonstratively. Evidently his priorities are such that sex is at the bottom of his list. He says it would be nice once in a while but it's not necessary. I will state it again...he is free to go anytime he wants. If he feels that he needs more than I can give him, who am I to stop him? And he should have exercised his freedom "to go anytime he wants" long ago if you ask me. The guy is short-changed in the relationship. You don't love him. Because if you did, you wouldn't be able to consistently prioritize your needs as FIRST. His ENs would be just as important to you as your own. His happiness would be a priority in your life. So would his health. ED is not a normal condition for a healthy man, btw. As I've said before, a man's sexual health is fairly indicative of his general health. You would care about that, rather than using it as license not to worry about his sexual needs. I want to address the term "lover". Lover to me means someone who wants to be with you as you are; as a whole person, faults and all. Not someone who loves you for what you can provide for them. It's nice to be provided for too but IMO it should be a *fringe benefit*. I don't think it would be a "fringe benefit" from your POV if you'd never had your needs met. From the freedictionary online: lov·er Pronunciation (lvr) n. 1. One who loves another, especially one who feels sexual love. 2. lovers A couple in love with each other. 3. a. A paramour. b. A sexual partner. 4. One who is fond of or devoted to something: a lover of fine food. There's a mighty big difference between saying, "I love my husband" and saying, "I love cake". Although, I can see where you might not expect much in return from the cake. Just being cake would be good enough. Wants and Needs are two different things. The cake doesn't need us to prioritize it. A person does. "Fringe Benefits" are "wants". They're nice, but not necessarily something we can't do without and still be happy within the confines of the relationship.. My relationship may not fit the average or *normal* but to each his own. What may be *right* for one couple may be totally off base for another. I couldn't agree more with that one in terms of "not average or normal". In essence you're trying to tell us that an "asexual" can marry a "sexual" and both be provided for emotionally within the marriage. Is that right? Because it looks somewhat lop-sided from here. I'm sorry that you think I am such a cold-hearted person. Yes. Based on what you've written here in your posts, I do find you to be self-absorbed and even "cold-hearted". You've admitted that you have no "emotional connection" to your husband. And yet he's stayed by your side for all these years, apparently helping you to raise your children from a previous marriage and dealing with your PTSD. After all he's done for you, your best answer in a nutshell regarding his sexuality seems to be... 'If he doesn't like it, he shouldn't let the door hit him in the ass'. Yeah... I'm sorry... but I do think that's cold. But you "can't help" feeling the way you do, huh? Emotions just "happen"? We must all just follow blindly along to wherever they lead?
Ladyjane14 Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 This Thread is reminiscent of one a couple of years ago when in the course of discussing child porn/sex abuse, the Thread was invaded by NAMBLA propagandists. There, these ideologically driven poster-invaders argued at great length why man-boy "love" is a civil right. Now, I'm not comparing the Asexual agenda with the Pederast agenda. (Asexuals do no harm unless, of course, they're in a relationship with a "Sexual"). Still, there are eerie similarities. Both propagandists employ identity politics and go on at great lengths to justify and legitimate their conditions. There's often a canned, unreal quality to the labored advocacy. I couldn't agree more. It reminds me also of an anti-porn group who came through year before last. There's a twisted feel to these kind of propagandist posts. Logic is forced into an arbitrary mold and tailored to suit the agenda of the ideology.
Ripples Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 Hi Ripples, Research has proven that emotions are at the core of human behavior. It is fact that THOUGHTS ARE BORN WITH EMOTIONS BEHIND THEM. Ok, I don't need to read anymore. You're cracked. No research exists that would prove anything of the kind. Infact, the research that has been done into the emotion/thought connection proves exactly the opposite - thoughts create emotion. And yes, newborn babies can still have thoughts even if they can't think in English Do a Google if you're still unsure
Ladyjane14 Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 Still, there are eerie similarities. "We are The Borg. YOU will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."
MySugaree Posted February 24, 2007 Posted February 24, 2007 Good allusion LJ. It's as if these "trollvocates" toe the Party line. Machine-voice, and all.
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