Becoming more comfortable with touch.

[Lights]

How would I gain a happy comfort around women that lends itself to being able to close physical distance and be able to happily, playfully, and naturally touch a woman?

 

I will now don my bullschitt-proof vest and commence countermeasures against what is likely to be coming over an internet post of this nature. No, I do not mean groping anyone, nor touching anyone inappropriately. More specifically, many people talk and even write about how men and women might touch each other at a date by appearing to accidentally reach for the same thing across a table, or symbolic gestures like wiping an imaginary piece of lint off someone's shirt, or even less contrived an act such a friendly touch on the arm. Where it leads from there, of course, has its place as well, and I will make no apologies for any of what occurs there.

 

From a recent experience I noticed that I still haven't been able to advance beyond this barrier; there's no doubt in my mind that more than a decade of rejection has made every step I take with women a painful gamble rather than a fun flirtation, so it's quite possible that rejection alone has prevented me from being really comfortable with initiating such contact.

 

Specifically, my most recent experience was last night in a karaoke bar. I showed up there alone, and was the first who dared to actually sing. I passed by a group of people nearby who happened to be friendly and, miracle of miracles, did not appear to be a solidly fused tribe or squadron of couples and also had an apparent surplus of women. One of the men there was open and friendly and I was able to chat with all of the people there, and over time (a few hours; this was one of the few instances in my life outside work, sleep, or study where I'm in one place for an extended period of time), I once even, without thinking of it and in a manner that was successful and ordinary to my own eyes, touched the guy on the arm/shoulder area as if we had been bonding like buddies.

 

I noticed that I wasn't and rarely ever have been able to do that with any women anywhere. In this particular situation that was just as well; most of them were married and had been dragged out by their friends. They were almost all quite friendly, but I did not attempt any significant flirtation with them for that reason. What I found irritating was that I was not and still have never been able to create that same feeling of normally being able to close physical distance in that way, without actively having to think about it and be selfconscious and constantly wondering how it is to be done and wondering about rejection along the way.

 

Has anyone else here had this problem and gotten over it?

[phyrespryte]

Yeah I have a similar problem. I've found that I can't touch someone unless I feel really comfortable with them. And that usually takes a long time.

 

If I'm drunk it's a totally different story. I guess it's because I'm so messed up I can't think about what I'm doing? I think that's the answer...not drinking. But not thinking so much?

[dgiirl]

Actually, I have the same problem. I find it really difficult to be affectionate with someone, even people who I've known for a really long time. I moved to a place where they double kissed, and let me tell you, it was a huge shock and a challenge to my comfort zone. But after living there for 10 years, I'm now able to hug a friend without feeling uncomfortable. Move to some latin country where they are all touchy feely. You'll learn to adapt and then when you go back home, you'll be more outgoing lol

 

Anyways, I'd be interested in knowing any advice you receive in this area.

[alphamale]

I don't like touch-feely people who invade my personal space.

[SixthSt.Girl]

I don't like touch-feely people who invade my personal space.

 

I don't, either. Lights, were your parents affectionate with you as a child? My parents were never the huggy type, so I'm not, either. I don't like people touching me, even in a dating situation, until it's progressed to a certain level, or I'm really, really attracted to him and show that I want the contact.

 

It's knowing when it's appropriate and knowing the person well enough to guage a reaction. I had a female boss that was huggy with everyone and gave me hugs when I had only been working there for a few days. I guess if it's in an environment like that where it's all women, it's different (?). I still was a little taken aback. Conversely, I had a male boss that frequently touched and grabbed my arm when he was talking to me. I posted about him before - there was a mutual attraction b/w us - I didn't feel as taken aback because we'd known each other longer, and it felt natural because there were feelings there. But, when I mentioned it here, it was called sexual harrassment. Is the female boss/female employee hug not harrassment, then? I should prolly make my own thread about this - it's an interesting topic! I rarely initiate touch with anyone. I think in a dating scene, it's more the guy's place to do it. Definitely, in a professional setting, it's the boss who initiates if anyone (I've read that it's very unprofessional to use touch at work, then read that it's ok in certain places). I was wondering about doctor/patient touch. I was depressed when I went in to my doctor, and at the end of my appt., he said, "let me give you a hug." I was definitely taken aback there because I haven't gone to the doctor for more than a few years, and it's a clinic, so I don't even see him every time. Is this a normal thing to do - maybe I'm just prudish. I guess in the environment I grew up in, I learned that touch isn't commonplace, so I don't do it and often shrink back when others do it.

[Lights]

I don't like touch-feely people who invade my personal space.

I don't, either.

I understand. My question wasn't so much regarding being touchy-feely nor necessarily about creating a "social proxemics violation" (which, as dgiirl points out, can be very culture-specific anyways)...

Actually, I have the same problem. I find it really difficult to be affectionate with someone, even people who I've known for a really long time. I moved to a place where they double kissed, and let me tell you, it was a huge shock and a challenge to my comfort zone. But after living there for 10 years, I'm now able to hug a friend without feeling uncomfortable. Move to some latin country where they are all touchy feely. You'll learn to adapt and then when you go back home, you'll be more outgoing lol

 

...nor necessarily invading someone's space, nor necessarily rushing out to hug everyone, but rather being more comfortable in general and being able to highly confidently deal in...

I think in a dating scene,

...matters like this. In matters of dating, flirting, and yes, as much as some prudish types hate the word, seduction, being able to effectively connect via touch is known to be important. People have been known to have come up with methods to initiate such contact to the point that they've become cliches, a la the "fake yawn" alongside one's date in the movie theater wherein some put their arm around the other, the "brushing imaginary lint off" a flirt-mate one is facing as I mentioned in my original post, the "electric" touch on the back when walking alongside someone on a date, and so on.

 

I wish to know how to become highly skilled and highly and happily confident while I transition through not only through the relevant and appropriate social proxemic distances you people have mentioned, but also be effective and appropriate in generating physical connections and "chemistry" in flirting or seduction situations. Note that I had no problem and did not even think about such matters until after the fact with a new male buddy, and no one had any problems with it--but when women are involved, I'm clueless and I don't even necessarily even think of the matter in time.

 

What would be the path to improvement here?

[phyrespryte]

Yeah I know what you're talking about. Being intoxicated has always made things flow for me better. But to be able to use it in a seducing way...well that I haven't been able to do that consciously.

 

Well my friend that always coaches me in such things is a pro. Her strategy is practice. She has always told me to flirt with friends or with people I have no attraction too. Start out small. Like touching their arm vs the small of their back.

 

It's weird how little things like that can make a huge difference. I actually tried the arm touch thing once. This guy I knew was really mad at me and even though a month had passed since I apologized he was still acting weird around me. Well one day I just touched his arm and asked him a question. It was such a brief thing, but his whole demeanor towards me changed. Anyways...

 

Instead of just saying a person's name to say hi or get their attention...touch their arm or shoulder until they make eye contact and then say hi. It sounds dumb, but I've noticed that flirty people always do that.

 

Also watch people who are good at it and take mental notes. Feel free to copy some of their moves. But be aware of how people react to flirting. I know that I love it when a guy is extremely forward and gets up in my personal space, while some hate it.

 

Sorry if this is all stuff you've already heard. It's not something I'm a pro at. I was also hoping more people would have insight into this.

[Lights]

Well my friend that always coaches me in such things is a pro. Her strategy is practice. She has always told me to flirt with friends or with people I have no attraction too. Start out small. Like touching their arm vs the small of their back.

...

Instead of just saying a person's name to say hi or get their attention...touch their arm or shoulder until they make eye contact and then say hi. It sounds dumb, but I've noticed that flirty people always do that.

That's pretty amazing that you have a friend who can coach you on those kinds of things. I envy you. But how specifically do I do an appropriate touch on the arm, and how do I close the distance and maintain that in the first place so that touching them on the arm or shoulder is practicable? (I'm sorry to ask questions in this fashion, but I really do not know!)

 

Also watch people who are good at it and take mental notes. Feel free to copy some of their moves. But be aware of how people react to flirting. I know that I love it when a guy is extremely forward and gets up in my personal space, while some hate it.

 

Sorry if this is all stuff you've already heard. It's not something I'm a pro at. I was also hoping more people would have insight into this.

 

Nah, no need to be sorry, and no, it's not so much stuff I've already heard but stuff I've got no idea how to implement.

[Guest]

Just get to know them more. "accidental" touches can help you gauge their comfort level with you. You know those touches where you are handing them something and you "accidentally" touch their hand with your finger(s) or atleast to them it would appear accidental. Or get closer in standing and face them straight on. If they back up, nope they are not ready to have that close distance. If they turn away they are cool but may be not sure yet or may be shy.

 

You can watch the body language and tell pretty easily when someone is accepting closer boundries.

 

 

I have problems with touch too. I too wasn't in a very affectionate family so I think thats why too. I've gotten pretty good at reading body language so I can start touching some. But like with my current interest I started that but now that I know him more and my feelings have increased even more I'm back to scared to touch.

[remedylane]

do you ever consciously think about touching the girl? I have this same problem too. I am going to try to be more aware of myself and touching the girl. Try that if you haven't.

[phyrespryte]

But how specifically do I do an appropriate touch on the arm, and how do I close the distance and maintain that in the first place so that touching them on the arm or shoulder is practicable? (I'm sorry to ask questions in this fashion, but I really do not know!)

 

Honestly I'm not sure how to explain that. I think first you might want to just start watching how other people do it. And pay close attention when someone does it to you. Like I've noticed when people say hi, they never touch my arm below my elbow. Usually it's like a a tap on my shoulder or mid-arm.

 

Have you tried reading any books about this subject? I went to the bookstore a couple days ago and found this book called Superflirt. It has a lot of pictures in it and information about body language. I haven't finished reading it yet, but so far there's some really interesting stuff in there about gauging a person's reaction to you. So that way you can figure out when it's appropriate to touch them or not.

 

Also I'm reading this other book called Flirting 101. I'm still in the early chapters, but so far it's been explaining how you need to be in a positive mindset (and how to get your mind into that state) in order to flirt successfully.

[Lights]

Honestly I'm not sure how to explain that. I think first you might want to just start watching how other people do it. And pay close attention when someone does it to you. Like I've noticed when people say hi, they never touch my arm below my elbow. Usually it's like a a tap on my shoulder or mid-arm.

I do what I can if I have a chance to watch people, but I've never been able to do that with any regularity nor get a close enough view to see what's really going on. As far as when someone touches me in an attempt to meet me or flirt, that has yet to happen in my life.

 

Have you tried reading any books about this subject?

 

I've read a book on body language (called Secrets of Sexual Body Language), but reading it was frustrating because even if the information was good, it was all uselessly theoretical to me because I have no idea how to create the interactions in the first place. It didn't really tell me anything on how to do the actual distance-closing required and how to actually acceptably do the touches in question, and how to become confident and comfortable doing them. (Reading something that notes that things do happen to be done, even if it's in some detail with illustrations, isn't the same as reading something that describes how to do things.)

 

Have you found those books you've mentioned to be useful so far?

 

Just get to know them more. "accidental" touches can help you gauge their comfort level with you. You know those touches where you are handing them something and you "accidentally" touch their hand with your finger(s) or atleast to them it would appear accidental. Or get closer in standing and face them straight on. If they back up, nope they are not ready to have that close distance. If they turn away they are cool but may be not sure yet or may be shy.[/QUOTe]

I know what you are saying, but I do not know how to do an "accidental" touch in real life. I've never actually handed anyone anything when I was looking to chat or flirt with them.

 

You can watch the body language and tell pretty easily when someone is accepting closer boundries.

[/Quote]

do you ever consciously think about touching the girl? I have this same problem too. I am going to try to be more aware of myself and touching the girl. Try that if you haven't.

This is a serious problem. With me, most social interactions (or even potential social interactions) move way too quickly for me to be able to do any conscious thinking. As a result, I end up not doing anything I'm not already successful enough at or otherwise 'programmed' to do, if you will, and don't even get a chance to think about moving a possible flirtation any closer until too late. It is the same with me for people's body language; I do not have the time to think about it effectively--it often doesn't even get a chance to "cross my mind".

The opposite problem does occasionally surface, though, but it's much more rare for me. I might think that I would want to move things closer, but not really know how or where, and through the time that passes in conscious thought, if there was any actual opportunity to do so it then is long gone.

[remedylane]

This is a serious problem. With me, most social interactions (or even potential social interactions) move way too quickly for me to be able to do any conscious thinking. As a result, I end up not doing anything I'm not already successful enough at or otherwise 'programmed' to do, if you will, and don't even get a chance to think about moving a possible flirtation any closer until too late. It is the same with me for people's body language; I do not have the time to think about it effectively--it often doesn't even get a chance to "cross my mind".

The opposite problem does occasionally surface, though, but it's much more rare for me. I might think that I would want to move things closer, but not really know how or where, and through the time that passes in conscious thought, if there was any actual opportunity to do so it then is long gone.

 

I deal with the same issue too. Often times the convos move so fast and stuff that I don't get a chance to really think about my behavior or their body language or whatever. I think it can be worked on though through small amounts of practice. Maybe try to think about it before you see the girl.

[Lights]

I deal with the same issue too. Often times the convos move so fast and stuff that I don't get a chance to really think about my behavior or their body language or whatever. I think it can be worked on though through small amounts of practice. Maybe try to think about it before you see the girl.

 

Maybe, but I don't have the advantage of knowing ahead of time when or where an attractive girl might pass nearby an area I might be in.

[phyrespryte]

Have you found those books you've mentioned to be useful so far?

 

To be perfectly honest. No.

Sorry Lights. I just finished reading all of flirting 101. And though I feel like I have an understanding of what signals to look for, I don't feel like I can go up to someone and start flirting with them. Oh well. I think I was really hoping for some sort of script that I could use. I'm now reading a book about southern women and flirting.

 

One thing I found interesting though was that in that all those books they really emphasize being in a positive happy mood. That in order to be a successful flirt you have to feel extremely good about yourself. Don't know if that helps.

[Lights]

To be perfectly honest. No.

Sorry Lights. I just finished reading all of flirting 101. And though I feel like I have an understanding of what signals to look for, I don't feel like I can go up to someone and start flirting with them. Oh well. I think I was really hoping for some sort of script that I could use. I'm now reading a book about southern women and flirting.

 

One thing I found interesting though was that in that all those books they really emphasize being in a positive happy mood. That in order to be a successful flirt you have to feel extremely good about yourself. Don't know if that helps.

 

Oh, ok. I guess I'll be looking around for more books then too. I'll see what I can find.

 

You mentioned a book about specifically southern women and flirting; is it that you're stuck in a situation where cultural barriers are interfering with your flirting? (That doesn't appear to be my case, but I'm just curious.)

 

Yeah, that's probably the case. If only I could control my immediate mood when someone attractive passes by in the area though...

[phyrespryte]

You mentioned a book about specifically southern women and flirting; is it that you're stuck in a situation where cultural barriers are interfering with your flirting? (That doesn't appear to be my case, but I'm just curious.)

 

Nah. Someone recommended the book to me. And I figured well...southern women are known for being very friendly and flirty...perhaps she knows something I don't.

 

So far I find the book extremely irritating. She says to give people pet names. Like sweetie, honey, sugar, etc. And not just people you're interested in, everyone you talk to. Personally I find it patronizing when people say things like that to me. Also she says it's good to wink. I'm not a winker and I find it somewhat creepy when I get winks from people.

 

But the person that recommended these books to me...they said that you should read them and pick and choose what works best for you. That most of these books can be one-sided and you need to find a balance within them.

[Lights]

Nah. Someone recommended the book to me. And I figured well...southern women are known for being very friendly and flirty...perhaps she knows something I don't.

 

So far I find the book extremely irritating. She says to give people pet names. Like sweetie, honey, sugar, etc. And not just people you're interested in, everyone you talk to. Personally I find it patronizing when people say things like that to me. Also she says it's good to wink. I'm not a winker and I find it somewhat creepy when I get winks from people.

 

But the person that recommended these books to me...they said that you should read them and pick and choose what works best for you. That most of these books can be one-sided and you need to find a balance within them.

 

I'll certainly believe that regarding the books. I guess the next step would be to arrange a sufficient number of 'test runs' to find out what works best

 

I don't currently have any more information, but I'll post up once I find out more.

[katiebour]

Dear Lights,

In my experience "reaching out and touching someone" can be terrifying- but it is rewarding. The terror is part of the experience too- when your heartbeat accelerates and you watch the other person to see how they react.

 

I was raised in a very physically affectionate family- but I've always been shy around strangers. I did not date until I was 19 and so most of my flirting experience was learned from the people I dated. I remember very clearly walking and talking with my first boyfriend (2nd date) and he reached out and held my hand. My heartbeat accelerated about a million miles an hour. We walked and talked and while both of us were conscious of the physical contact, neither of us said anything. I've noticed that oftentimes the first sign of "I really like you and think you're hot" ends up being holding hands. However, that usually comes after a man gets very clear signals from a woman that his attention is welcome- smiling a lot, straightening clothes/hair, laughing, blushing, etc.

 

My second boyfriend took my hand in the movie theater while we were watching "Rat Race" on our first date. I think I totally missed the middle part of the movie because I was so focused on the physical contact (heart going a million miles an hour again.)

 

You have to be careful with this- a guy I went on a first date with tried to take my hand/caress my hair/etc. in the movie theater after lunch. I wasn't all that attracted to him and found the attention totally unwanted. I guess he wasn't picking up on my lack of signals. I guess it's a trial and error sort of thing for guys?

 

My advice- keep your hands to yourself until you're sure your attention is welcome. It's better to be conservative when it comes to touching.

 

Whenever I've initiated the physical contact, I usually have asked the other person if it was ok to do so, and only after I was pretty sure that they were attracted to me.

 

Little tips-

 

-Open the car door for her and "help" her into the car with a light touch on the small of the back. Same goes if you're walking into a restaurant- "guide" her with a touch. Works for opening a door for her too- I wonder how many of those "sexist" things that men used to do for women were simply so that they could touch her...

 

-Take her to a movie, buy popcorn and soda, and when she tries to carry some of it, say, "Let me get that" or "I'll carry that" and take it from her. Touch her hand lightly while carrying out the exchange. Or if you carry it, brush her hand when you give her the popcorn.

 

-Go to an art gallery or some sort of exhibit- when she's looking at something pat her on the shoulder or place your hand lightly on her shoulder and wait until you have her attention to remove it. Then show her something that you noticed and wanted to bring her attention to. Or buy her something to drink and do the shoulder-tap to hand it to her.

 

There's a million variations in a million different settings- think about where you're going on a date and what kind of opportunities might present themselves.

 

There's no way to be comfortable about this- you're basically saying "I'm touching you now to show you how much I'd like to touch you later." It should be accompanied by butterflies and an accelerated heartbeat. So gird your loins, read her signals, and if she seems interested, go for it!

 

Good luck and take care

-Katie

[Lights]

Dear Lights,

In my experience "reaching out and touching someone" can be terrifying- but it is rewarding. The terror is part of the experience too- when your heartbeat accelerates and you watch the other person to see how they react.

...but I've always been shy around strangers. I did not date until I was 19 and so most of my flirting experience was learned from the people I dated.

 

It's great that you've been able to develop in this manner (and be able to provide tips like those you mentioned) even after getting a "late start" on dating and the like (as you can tell, I'm an even more extreme case there). My sincere congratulations.

 

My heartbeat accelerated about a million miles an hour. We walked and talked and while both of us were conscious of the physical contact, neither of us said anything. I've noticed that oftentimes the first sign of "I really like you and think you're hot" ends up being holding hands. However, that usually comes after a man gets very clear signals from a woman that his attention is welcome- smiling a lot, straightening clothes/hair, laughing, blushing, etc.

I suppose. I've never actually encountered anything like those clear signals though, but then again I've never held hands with anyone either.

 

Little tips-

Thanks for those tips, Katie. Interesting insight too about the behaviors associated with sexist social norms--I actually didn't think about them that way. If you wouldn't mind, can you share any similar tips that are relevant to meeting someone new (i.e. when not on a date but after meeting someone new who I find attractive and conversation is continuing)?

 

There's no way to be comfortable about this- you're basically saying "I'm touching you now to show you how much I'd like to touch you later." It should be accompanied by butterflies and an accelerated heartbeat. So gird your loins, read her signals, and if she seems interested, go for it!

 

Good luck and take care

-Katie

 

Gird my loins? Well, I wasn't necessarily thinking of touch on body parts that far down in this particular context, but hey...

 

Thanks for your advice and wishes, Katie. You take care too.

[remedylane]

today I was hanging out with a girl and a good opportunity to practice my touch came. She showed me her new earrings and I asked if I could see them and I just touched her ear.

 

I was just thinking that maybe you can find opportunities like that. Maybe the girl has a ring on her finger, maybe ask if you can check it out and reach for her finger.

[katiebour]

If you wouldn't mind, can you share any similar tips that are relevant to meeting someone new (i.e. when not on a date but after meeting someone new who I find attractive and conversation is continuing)?

 

I think in the pre-dating phase that more flirting is done with eyes and body language than with hands. As far as touching goes, a light touch on the arm to emphasize a point, getting attention with a light touch on the arm or shoulder are appropriate.

 

-Sit with legs and arms uncrossed (open and receptive posture)

 

-Lean forward slightly as if what she's saying is of the utmost interest

 

-Look directly into the person's eyes while you and she are talking

 

Having someone look into my eyes while we're talking is VERY intimate. That says to me, "I'm interested in you and I'm not even going to try and hide it."

 

-Compliment her specifically ("That sweater matches your eyes perfectly.")

 

Noticing something specific about them shows that you are paying attention to detail- more so than a "You look great." It shows that you are so interested that everything about them catches your attention.

 

When my current boyfriend and I wrapped up our first outing/pre-date, we stood outside my house next to his car. There was an awkward moment where I looked at him and he looked at me, and then I initiated a hug. We made plans to get together again and at that point were instant messaging back and forth.

 

The next morning he messaged me and while we were talking, he said something to the effect of "I really wanted to kiss you last night, but I don't want to rush things." That let me know that he was as interested in me as I was in him. It also put me on my toes wondering at each date if/when we would kiss.

 

I once dated another guy, who at the end of our first outing, after we made plans to meet again, said, "I had a great time with you. Can I kiss you?" Asking me straight out was very tantalizing, and yes, we did kiss.

 

I don't know if any of that helps- that's been my experience dating. Nowadays I tend to be the initiator of things physical; comfort with initiating comes with practice and experience. It took me about 6 years of long-term relationships and dating to be really comfortable with touching/flirting.

 

Good luck!

[Lights]

I think in the pre-dating phase that more flirting is done with eyes and body language than with hands. As far as touching goes, a light touch on the arm to emphasize a point, getting attention with a light touch on the arm or shoulder are appropriate.

This is pretty much what I was having the immediate problem with--I had no problem with that with men, but once women are involved I don't know how to do such a touch on the arm or shoulder in a normal, apparently unforced, acceptable fashion, or even in some cases how to get the initial (standing/sitting/whatever) distance close enough that such a touch appears normal and unforced. I'll try to time one with emphasizing a point sometime as you noted here.

 

When my current boyfriend and I wrapped up our first outing/pre-date, we stood outside my house next to his car. There was an awkward moment where I looked at him and he looked at me, and then I initiated a hug. We made plans to get together again and at that point were instant messaging back and forth.

 

The next morning he messaged me and while we were talking, he said something to the effect of "I really wanted to kiss you last night, but I don't want to rush things." That let me know that he was as interested in me as I was in him. It also put me on my toes wondering at each date if/when we would kiss.

 

I once dated another guy, who at the end of our first outing, after we made plans to meet again, said, "I had a great time with you. Can I kiss you?" Asking me straight out was very tantalizing, and yes, we did kiss.

 

I don't know if any of that helps- that's been my experience dating. Nowadays I tend to be the initiator of things physical; comfort with initiating comes with practice and experience. It took me about 6 years of long-term relationships and dating to be really comfortable with touching/flirting.

 

Good luck!

 

Thank you, Katie, for your advice and recounting your experiences. You definitely sound like you put a lot of thought into the posts you've written.

 

I'll definitely consider the approaches you mentioned here.