Stepping Back from Sex

[tanbark813]

It's not that simple. What can she safely assume if there are problems in the marriage? How does she know that when her hubby is a workaholic and is hardly ever around, for example, that he continues to associate sex with love and intimacy and hasn't reverted to seeing her as an outlet for "just sex"? If he's not meeting her emotional needs or need for affection or attention, how can she assume that he needs her for more than just sex.

 

Well I was just speaking in generalities. Men can have casual sex with no emotions involved, but men don't get into serious relationships with those women. If a man is in a serious relationship, it's pretty much guaranteed there are emotions involved with the sex. Even if there are problems in the marriage, I doubt that association is ever broken, but I've never been married so I don't know. Also, perhaps the husband turned into a workaholic and stopped meeting his wife's emotional needs because she wasn't giving him any affection/intimacy. It's a two-way street.

 

First off, thanks for clearing that up earlier! Second, this is another piece of the puzzle that men miss. How can a woman assume sex is more to her husband, if she doesn't know that sex is EVER more than a physical need? B/c until your H makes that clear, we honestly don't know that.

 

Well like I was saying in my reply to nj, if a guy marries you then its a given that sex is more than just physical. If it weren't, you'd just be his f**k buddy.

 

Where in society do we teach this to girls? I know I was certainly never taught this.

 

That goes along with my point about society having a tendency to emphasize women's needs over men's.

 

Even my own husband was not able to articulate it- I learned by reading stuff on the internet. Our entire society is F*ed up about how we view sex and intimacy within the confines of a committed relationship. We glorify promiscuity to ridiculous proportions, then get mad when women don't understand sex is more to men than just getting off? How can any woman just automatically understand that hypocrisy? Both men and women end up screwed over these stereotypes in the end.

 

w3rd.

 

And another question for you- you said you disagreed with me that men assume women are being purposefully manipulative about sex. If that is true, then why aren't men brutally honest? If men see that women aren't having sex simply b/c they don't get how important the need is, where is the conversation that clears that up? Do you think James' wife doesn't get it, or do you think she is being manipulative? I am curious about your view on this. Maybe my own bias has tainted my view, but when I read much of what the men write, I see it as they imply their wives get it, and just choose not to participate, if that makes sense.

 

Well I'm almost positive that both JamesM and stoopid_guy have talked to their wives and have not made much headway. I'm pretty sure it was JamesM who posted that really long letter to his wife he composed a while back. It's impossible to read that and not feel the pain in his words.

 

But there are probably a number of reasons men don't speak up:

 

1. I read something a while ago that basically stated that while boys are out roughhousing and playing sports, girls are socializing and talking. Girls naturally learn how to express their emotions at a younger age and get better at it sooner than boys.

 

2. There is that stereotypical attitude of "boys don't cry" prevalent in society, though that seems to have lessened over the years.

 

3. Oftentimes, women don't make it easy for men to express their feelings. If a guy tries to talk about his feelings or needs, oftentimes he'll get told by his gf/wife that he's being a pussy or is too sensitive. If a guy hears that even just a few times, it can be enough of a blow to his sense of manhood that he'll just shut up and deal with it, or vent it through anger. I think that, by and large, men would rather deal with anger than sadness. I know I'm that way.

[stoopid_guy]

why aren't men brutally honest?

Right or wrong, we also see ourselves as "protectors." We don't want to see women hurt. I know, the wife isn't a child that needs protection. Nevertheless, that is an instinctive roll the man plays, and it's one the women expect. (Ever notice how the average 5-year-old girl isn't afraid of bugs, but the average 13-year-old girl is? )

[JamesM]

Do you think James' wife doesn't get it, or do you think she is being manipulative? I am curious about your view on this.

 

I am also curious about your POV...whomever reads this.

[riobikini]

re:

 

JamesM: " I have read and heard that if your wife/husband is not interested in sex, then sometimes it works to pull back as far as giving any sort of pursuit towards sex. Then he or she will begin to wonder what is up and start chasing you. Is that true?"

 

James, that old "fox 'n hound" approach might work for awhile, -and for some people- but it doesn't really solve anything for long.

 

-Rio

[ritamae]

I can tell you from experience that it can take quite a bit for a woman to learn what it is a man is trying to tell her. My BF and I broke up in June and agreed to try again 3 or 4 weeks later. It is now October and I just now understand what he was trying to tell me. It was in the wording. And my fear was so great that I could not see straight. He said to me this weekend that he 'is feeling the connection again'. That really cleared things up for me. We had lost the connection. We never discussed it before the break up. He just continued to pull away from me. It took breaking up and both of us realizing we did not want to be without the other to realize we had to discuss and work on this.

 

I only tell you this because I feel like it took me a long time to actually get it. To understand what he was trying to tell me. We talked many times between June and October. But, just this weekend's conversation cleared it right up for me. You can not talk to your wife one time - no matter the outcome of that talk - and expect her to understand. Especially if the talk went bad (I do not recall reading about it). If it went bad she probably got defensive about something and just does not understand what you really want to tell her. It is not going to magically get better. She is not going to suddenly feel amorous again.

 

I wish I could give you words to use that would help her get it quicker. But, it takes time and patience. This is you working on your marriage. She will work too, once she understands your issues.

[Pink_Tulip]

Well like I was saying in my reply to nj, if a guy marries you then its a given that sex is more than just physical. If it weren't, you'd just be his f**k buddy.

 

No, Tanbark. It is a given for YOU, and probably for most men. It is NOT a given for women. If it were, I suspect half of these threads wouldn't be here. That is the issue, how do we teach women the way in which men in a committed relationship view sex. I imagine whoever figures that one out will make more money than Bill Gates...

[riobikini]

re:

 

TanBark: "... if a guy marries you then its a given that sex is more than just physical."

 

I agree with you, TanBark (if I am understanding the statement correctly).

 

If a man has fallen in love, made his commitment -then sex is definitely more than just *physical* in his eyes: things move up levels in the relationship, sex has deeper meaning and, for some, becomes sort of a spiritual union between them.

 

-Rio

[norajane]

No, Tanbark. It is a given for YOU, and probably for most men. It is NOT a given for women. If it were, I suspect half of these threads wouldn't be here. That is the issue, how do we teach women the way in which men in a committed relationship view sex. I imagine whoever figures that one out will make more money than Bill Gates...

 

I totally agree with you. It's NOT a given for women. We DON'T know that it changes from just sex, or when the change occurs, and we especially don't know that it remains true over time.

 

I know my guy loves me deeply, but HE certainly has never, ever, ever explained anything like this to me. He's never said sex with me is about feeling love and intimacy as well as the physical pleasure. I believe it, but not because he has ever said it. I believe it because I feel it coming from him, and because he has ONE time said something about the intimacy between us, but he never connected the intimacy with the sex. And I don't think he'd ever, ever say anything remotely like this unless I were to specifically bring it up and ask. He prolly thinks it's a given too, but I've had to infer it.

 

JamesM - keep talking to your wife. She needs to hear it multiple times and in multiple ways before she truly understands the connection between sex, love, and intimacy for you. Tell her during sex and after sex. Tell her how close you feel to her then, and how you live for that feeling.

[tanbark813]

I agree with you, TanBark (if I am understanding the statement correctly).

 

If a man has fallen in love, made his commitment -then sex is definitely more than just *physical* in his eyes: things move up levels in the relationship, sex has deeper meaning and, for some, becomes sort of a spiritual union between them.

 

-Rio

 

Yes, that's what I meant.

 

 

No, Tanbark. It is a given for YOU, and probably for most men. It is NOT a given for women.

 

I totally agree with you. It's NOT a given for women. We DON'T know that it changes from just sex, or when the change occurs, and we especially don't know that it remains true over time.

 

I'm genuinely surprised by these responses. It seems like such an obvious concept, which may also explain why men don't often bring it up.

[alphamale]

if a man has to beg for sex then he is doing something wrong.

[LVspecB]

I wish I could give you words to use that would help her get it quicker. But, it takes time and patience. This is you working on your marriage. She will work too, once she understands your issues.

Good generic advice but it ignores the desperate reality of James (and others) situation. If one has been dealing for a year or more with an sex-refusing spouse, counseling "time and patience" is like suggesting to Israel and Palestine that they sing "Kumbayah" - too little, too late. As I read James posts, he has exhausted the reasonable alternatives of discussion, diplomacy and tact and would be well served to spell out the consequences, in no uncertain terms, of a continued marital "freeze". That whoosing sound in the background is your life passing by, and it's too short to spend any more of it under sexual prohibition. Time to go to Plan B...

 

LVspecB

[JackJack]

IMO, I would think that after a man or a woman has TOLD and SHOWN their spouse over and over and over again, what it is they want/need from the other person, and even how to go about it etc, one has to then wonder if its that the other spouse simply does not get it, or if its that the spouse just doesn't want to do what the other has told/shown them.

 

I'm happily engaged right now. However a few years back I was involved with a woman, who I do believe got what it was I told her and showed her I wanted/needed when things got rocky. I truly believe she got it, I think she simply didn't want to do anything about it.Could have been a number of reasons why I guess, did she ever tell me why? Nope. That spoke volumes to me. I figured, why should I continue to beat my head against a wall, to coninuly tell and show her how I feel, what I wanted and needed just for her to refuse me. You can tell someone, show them, get them books to read, educate them etc etc, but after all that has been tried, then its time to take a step back and say, "Maybe they DON"T want to do this for me, and for the relationship." Yes, I do believe alot of people, men and women, need to comminucate and be educated on what the other one needs, but there are some who DO KNOW what the other person needs or wants, but just DOESN'T want to.

[lovelorcet]

Yes, that's what I meant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm genuinely surprised by these responses. It seems like such an obvious concept, which may also explain why men don't often bring it up.

 

I must agree this is something very clear to most men. They feel love through sex and through a gf/wife wanting to have sex with them. You want to make your man feel loved then f**k him a lot.

 

That is the thing if you take care of your man then he will be much more likely to take care of your emotional needs...

[hotgurl]

No, Tanbark. It is a given for YOU, and probably for most men. It is NOT a given for women. If it were, I suspect half of these threads wouldn't be here. That is the issue, how do we teach women the way in which men in a committed relationship view sex. I imagine whoever figures that one out will make more money than Bill Gates...

 

I don't entirely agree with this because at some level everyone know how crapy it feels to be rejected. If a woman is rejected sexual by her BF or hubby she feels all the same emotions as a guy. So it is a given at some level for a woman.

 

Also these woman at least Jamesm & stoopied guy know what they are doing is hurting the relationship. stoopid guys wife even brought up the fact that she is afraid that he'll have an affiar if they don't start making love again. I think they are just too lazy to change and have a healthy dose of denial as well.

[JamesM]

I think they are just too lazy to change and have a healthy dose of denial as well.

 

Ditto, hotgurl. It is not a priority because they do not have the desire.

 

This brings me back to the question...how can I turn on my wife? Sad that I have to ask, but this seems to be at the heart of it. Part of the theory of ignoring her sexually is that she then misses the attention and begins the pursuit herslef. ALthough thi does sound appealing and good on paper, I am not sure it is practical. And I know, dinners, roses, etc. They do not result in sex most of the time. Something else is needed.

 

As I read James posts, he has exhausted the reasonable alternatives of discussion, diplomacy and tact and would be well served to spell out the consequences, in no uncertain terms, of a continued marital "freeze". That whoosing sound in the background is your life passing by, and it's too short to spend any more of it under sexual prohibition. Time to go to Plan B...

 

I do not believe I have exhausted ALL means, but I don't know what I have left to try. I am not giving up. My life is passing me by, and I do miss sex. But I know without a doubt that if I went to Plan B (which I assume may be divorce), I would devastate no only my wife's and children's lives but mine would be devastated. Way too many things are good in this marriage to let it go for sex.

[stoopid_guy]

This brings me back to the question...how can I turn on my wife? Sad that I have to ask, but this seems to be at the heart of it.

Ever wonder if some people simply don't desire sex and intimacy? Perhaps libido is as hard-wired into the brain and body chemistry as a person's height, hair color, etc...

[a4a]

Ever wonder if some people simply don't desire sex and intimacy? Perhaps libido is as hard-wired into the brain and body chemistry as a person's height, hair color, etc...

 

 

Very good point.... perhaps even genetic problems trigger a 'no breeding policy' in the brain causing a lack of sex drive?

[JackJack]

Ever wonder if some people simply don't desire sex and intimacy? Perhaps libido is as hard-wired into the brain and body chemistry as a person's height, hair color, etc...

 

 

There probably are some, especially if that person was always like that to begin with. However, if a person was NOT like that, and then at some point got that way, then that would say to me something changed for them somewhere along the way. I guess the hard thing to figure out, is what it is that changed for them to not want it anymore.

[JamesM]

There probably are some, especially if that person was always like that to begin with. However, if a person was NOT like that, and then at some point got that way, then that would say to me something changed for them somewhere along the way. I guess the hard thing to figure out, is what it is that changed for them to not want it anymore.

 

 

Excellent post...my words exactly. As has been said before, women always have a sex drive prior to marriage. But once they snagged the guy...poof! everything else takes priority.

 

My wife and many wives here HAD the sex drive after marriage. Something along the way diminished the desire. Was it me? Was it children? Was it depression? Extra Weight? Who knows? That is why many of us are here.

[ddw5195]

I really dont think this is the route you should take. cause my husband treats me the way you are telling yourself to start doing and I will tell you this. in which it is my husband that does not want the sex you will have to read my other post its to long to get into. but anyway I have done what you suggested and really it akes you more in a box that you eel lonly. my suggestion is tell her what you are feeling and get some counsl from someone. for me I just hang in there cause I have a 5 year old that would be devastated cause she is a daddys girl and I stay for her.

[Mz. Pixie]

IMO, I would think that after a man or a woman has TOLD and SHOWN their spouse over and over and over again, what it is they want/need from the other person, and even how to go about it etc, one has to then wonder if its that the other spouse simply does not get it, or if its that the spouse just doesn't want to do what the other has told/shown them.

 

 

See, to me this part is huge. This is what I went through in my first marriage. Hearing me and appearing to understand but truly not caring enough to put out the effort.

 

I think one thing that plays against women is that we are truly wired to be caretakers. So, in our way of looking at things, washing clothes and taking care of the home is showing our love to our husbands. When in fact, a good oral sex job is what does the trick. Am I making sense??

 

That's why it's important to try to find out what your partners love language is.

 

Your partner's love language might be sex or it might be acts of service. If you're trying to put forth family committment and their primary want is sex then you've truly got a miscommunication going on. Granted most men are going to rank sexual fufillment up there pretty high on the list. I was surprised however that it was not my husband's first. So, you might be surprised if you actually take the time to try to discuss those with your partner what your partner's truly is.

[hotgurl]

Excellent post...my words exactly. As has been said before, women always have a sex drive prior to marriage. But once they snagged the guy...poof! everything else takes priority.

 

My wife and many wives here HAD the sex drive after marriage. Something along the way diminished the desire. Was it me? Was it children? Was it depression? Extra Weight? Who knows? That is why many of us are here.

 

James it was probably a combo of all thoose things. I know children is a big libdo killer for some women.

 

This is what I think you should do tell your wife you want to go to marital counseling. Say you aren't happy in your marriage as it is and you are no longer willing to live like this for the rest of your life and you need her help to fix things. For both of you. Because there is no better gift you can give yourselves or your children than a happy marriage.

 

Also I don't know if this has been mentioned but getting her screened for depression, thyroid hormonal problems. pre menapause would help to rule out physical causes.

[JamesM]

I think one thing that plays against women is that we are truly wired to be caretakers. So, in our way of looking at things, washing clothes and taking care of the home is showing our love to our husbands. When in fact, a good oral sex job is what does the trick. Am I making sense??

 

Ms Pixie, I have heard this many times over the years. She thinks she HAS shown her love to me by doing these many things. And when she does something in anticipation of what I need, she really feels like..well, she gave me an orgasm. You hit the nail on the head. The funny thing is if I use this as the reason I am doing household chores for me, she feels that my motive should be "It is my duty." I think that is becase she thinks I am expecting a sexual reward.

 

Also I don't know if this has been mentioned but getting her screened for depression, thyroid hormonal problems. pre menapause would help to rule out physical causes.

 

Yes, this has been done. A thyroid med change actually brought her libido and positive mood back. For four months we lived a good marriage again. But now things have diminished for the past two months. My concern is that we are sliding down the slope to celibacy, and maybe it wasn't just the med change. It may have been the "talk" that we had at two in the morning that brought her libido back. For the past few weeks she has worked more night shifts than usual...so I am hoping this is it. My concern is that her passion has also diminished. Maybe I am panicking too quick. I just hate to pour on the physical attention...ie hugs and kisses...and get nothing in return. Selfish?

[a4a]

I just hate to pour on the physical attention...ie hugs and kisses...and get nothing in return. Selfish?

 

 

 

whoa........... dag you are being a tad selfish...... IMHO. Your only motive is to get sex, you do housework in hopes of sex? Maybe this is indeed showing through no matter how much you think it may not be?

 

That would be like my H making me dinner and then thinking I owe him a BJ?

 

Shoot as much as my needs previously were not satisfied I never gave a gift or did an act of service in the sole hope that maybe the favor would be returned ...........I need to reword this, but maybe you get what I am saying....... I give freely to the H, including BJ's but do not expect a gift in exchange for doing this...... I do it because he likes it.

[norajane]

I just hate to pour on the physical attention...ie hugs and kisses...and get nothing in return. Selfish?

 

James, this is huge red flag to me...

 

You only pour on the physical attention to get something in return? You aren't affectionate with her just because you like to touch her?