Stepping Back from Sex

[burning 4 revenge]

I wonder when James M reads all this if he's going to be thinking how did my thread turn to sh*t?

[lindya]

I don't see how this is applicable here. People need alone time on a daily, weekly, or maybe even monthly basis. The posters in this case are talking about YEARS of no sex.

 

"Hey honey, I love you but I need some space. Call me in 8 years," doesn't sound like an attitude consistent with the makings of a healthy relationship.

 

The part you quoted responded to a comment the OP made about people sometimes becoming more interested in sex when the other person backs off. Re the situation where one partner is consistently sexually rejected by the other over a period of years - I tried to make some indirect reference to that when I talked about imbalances in approaching eachothers needs, and people sometimes just being fundamentally incompatible.

[Guest]

Good generic advice but it ignores the desperate reality of James (and others) situation. If one has been dealing for a year or more with an sex-refusing spouse, counseling "time and patience" is like suggesting to Israel and Palestine that they sing "Kumbayah" - too little, too late. As I read James posts, he has exhausted the reasonable alternatives of discussion, diplomacy and tact and would be well served to spell out the consequences, in no uncertain terms, of a continued marital "freeze". That whoosing sound in the background is your life passing by, and it's too short to spend any more of it under sexual prohibition. Time to go to Plan B...

 

LVspecB

 

I've posted this on the other thread too. I'm curious to have your response.

 

LVspecB

 

I am a wife who has recently "finally" gotten a truthful confession from my spouse of 9 years. I wanted to say and do the things your wife is doing. I know it's destructive behavior, and so I choose to ... let it be for now… I know I cant force him to have a physical relationship… so if I’m going to be a responsible party in this too, I cant act like a big baby/spoiled brat pitching a fit because somebody hurt my feelings…that being said: My spouse is a wonderful man; I know without doubt that he loves me and that his biggest concern is my health. But like him, I think you underestimate the pain of having someone you love and have shared so much life with, say such a thing to you, even if it's said with the most genuine of love and kindest of words.

 

You said that your wife’s problems are not medical related. Mine are, and he’s being very supportive about gastric-bypass. Even teasing me about getting a tummy tuck when I’ve lost my weight and putting me on his boat in a bikini. Thing is; I am not sure how I feel about the fact that he knows I’ve tried many many many times to loose weight with little or no success. I want him to want me now because he loves me but he doesn’t and you can never understand the pain that goes with that realization. How am I supposed to forget that , if I am successful with surgery? I’ve read your posting on your wife’s comment about if the weight was lost, sex will never be an option… again she and I disagree on reaction, I am sure she’s reacting to pain in her heart.

 

Your looking for a way (an answer) on how to handle your dilemma… from a woman who’s been told what your wife has heard… be gentle and patient, encouraging and do your part to make an effort. You’ve been married twice the length of time I have, I guess telling you that communication is key is a mute point, nevertheless don’t stop communicating honestly and gently how you feel.

 

Now what do I do about wondering if I’ll resent him if I loose the weight and magically he wants me again?

[Flyin in Clouds]

James, this is huge red flag to me...

 

You only pour on the physical attention to get something in return? You aren't affectionate with her just because you like to touch her?

 

I went through this with my wife. She was perfectly satisfied to get a hug and nothing more. That satisfied her needs completely. Trouble is that hugging her would get me turned on. So she'd walk away satisfied, but left me continually frustrated, turned on but unsatisfied. After a while I didn't want to be left in that state so I stopped hugging or getting close in anyway to avoid be left hanging... It got to the point I didn't even want to be in bed next to her because being that close to her I'd want sex but she rejected every advance and that hurt. So I stopped going to bed with her to avoid being hurt. It got so bad that I really didn't want to live anymore. Suicidal thoughts happened a lot. When I hit bottom I decide I had to change something or I might jump off a bridge.

 

I don't get why women don't understand that just hugging them causes men to have - uh, a certain reaction. We can get the same reaction from just seeing a woman for Pete's sake. I sometimes wonder if women realize what teases they really are. Other times I know they know. I hate being teased if it never leads anywhere.

 

And to all the "just sex" comments. It's not just sex that is at issue, the relationship we want isn't "just sex" and nothing else. But we want sex to part of (a signficiant part of) the relationship and without it, there is no relationship. At least not a husband-wife relationship.

This brings me back to the question...how can I turn on my wife?

Try being a man...

 

Assuming that I was in love, my approach would be different because we would not have children and many other things that prevent our "dating."

If you want to let your kids (blame the kids) for being unable to "date" your wife then fine. (That's the lack of balls part I was talking about). Us kids never stopped my parents having a social life of their own. They hired baby sitters. Try it...

 

a4a's long post... liked it...

[JamesM]

Try being a man...

 

Boy, is THAT all it will take? For six to eight years I wasn't a man? As John Stossel would say...gimme a break.

 

Here is your own solution. THIS would be better advice.

So if you want to change thing you have to take charge. And being a little romantic, flowers, candles, cooking her her favorite meal, champagne in the jacuzzi, - all that helps - but above all convincing her that you really do love her, that you'd have an affair if she forces you to it, but you'd really rather have her ... the way you used to have her. Friendly persuasion? A little light arm twisting? OK, whatever... but it worked to us.

 

And yes, we have been there for that talk. It worked well...see my story. We had four months of good sex. For the past two months it has dropped off...not disappeared like before. What this thread is after is the best ways to get her enthusiastic about sex.

 

If you want to let your kids (blame the kids) for being unable to "date" your wife then fine. (That's the lack of balls part I was talking about). Us kids never stopped my parents having a social life of their own. They hired baby sitters. Try it...

 

We get babysitters. I am not "blaming" the kids...I am stating a fact that...based on your story..you no longer realize how much it truly does affect courting. Sexy lingerie is out, quiet candlelit dinners at home is out, and even assured quiet times in bed are not there. Courting a wife who has young children is definitely different than courting one who has children in college or out of the house. This is not an excuse...this is a fact. Babysitters are good, but once home, the factors to be dealt with are there. They may not eliminate things, but they do complicate them. I am not complaining that I cannnot have dinners with my wife...rare but we have them. We have time for coffee together. What we have to work at is time to be free and have passionate sex. We have constraints....and much as I love them...we need to work around them.

 

My original question was does making her chase me by stepping back from sex work?

 

BTW, if you read some of my posts in this thread...I think I reached the conclusion that she is working too much. Knowing that, I will work from that angle. Today I said that we need to make time for us again. She agreed. She plans on working less during the next month...this should give us more nights to at least sleep together, then we can make more happen.

 

Lack of balls...try being a man...wow. You have all the answers.

[Touche]

Would you let her get on an on-line lover? That might spark things up!

[JamesM]

Yeah, what was that woman's name who does that...Katrina? How can we contact her?

[Touche]

Yeah, what was that woman's name who does that...Katrina? How can we contact her?

 

Ha! But maybe she's on to something!

[LVspecB]

I've posted this on the other thread too. I'm curious to have your response.

 

LVspecB

 

I am a wife who has recently "finally" gotten a truthful confession from my spouse of 9 years. I wanted to say and do the things your wife is doing. I know it's destructive behavior, and so I choose to ... let it be for now… I know I cant force him to have a physical relationship… so if I’m going to be a responsible party in this too, I cant act like a big baby/spoiled brat pitching a fit because somebody hurt my feelings…that being said: My spouse is a wonderful man; I know without doubt that he loves me and that his biggest concern is my health. But like him, I think you underestimate the pain of having someone you love and have shared so much life with, say such a thing to you, even if it's said with the most genuine of love and kindest of words.

 

You said that your wife’s problems are not medical related. Mine are, and he’s being very supportive about gastric-bypass. Even teasing me about getting a tummy tuck when I’ve lost my weight and putting me on his boat in a bikini. Thing is; I am not sure how I feel about the fact that he knows I’ve tried many many many times to loose weight with little or no success. I want him to want me now because he loves me but he doesn’t and you can never understand the pain that goes with that realization. How am I supposed to forget that , if I am successful with surgery? I’ve read your posting on your wife’s comment about if the weight was lost, sex will never be an option… again she and I disagree on reaction, I am sure she’s reacting to pain in her heart.

 

Your looking for a way (an answer) on how to handle your dilemma… from a woman who’s been told what your wife has heard… be gentle and patient, encouraging and do your part to make an effort. You’ve been married twice the length of time I have, I guess telling you that communication is key is a mute point, nevertheless don’t stop communicating honestly and gently how you feel.

 

Now what do I do about wondering if I’ll resent him if I loose the weight and magically he wants me again?

Guest:

 

I put my response back in the other thread. Sorry for cluttering this one.

 

LVspecB

[Flyin in Clouds]

Boy, is THAT all it will take? For six to eight years I wasn't a man? As John Stossel would say...gimme a break.

 

You said several times you were afraid to talk to you wife for fear of making things worse... OK, continue to be a mouse. Do you spend more time whinning on this forum than talking to your wife about your issues?

 

 

For the past two months it has dropped off...not disappeared like before. What this thread is after is the best ways to get her enthusiastic about sex.

See my advice above.

 

 

We get babysitters. I am not "blaming" the kids...I am stating a fact that...based on your story..you no longer realize how much it truly does affect courting. Sexy lingerie is out, quiet candlelit dinners at home is out, and even assured quiet times in bed are not there. Courting a wife who has young children is definitely different than courting one who has children in college or out of the house. This is not an excuse...this is a fact.

No the only fact is you let it be that way.

 

My original question was does making her chase me by stepping back from sex work?

No. (as several have told you. You have to be the MAN. That means you do the chaseing ... )

 

Today I said that we need to make time for us again. She agreed. She plans on working less during the next month...this should give us more nights to at least sleep together, then we can make more happen.

Oh, see it wasn't really that hard to be the man was it... and your wife needs to remember she's the woman in your relationship - unless she'd like you to have some other woman in your relatinship.

 

My wife and I decided that I'd make plans for a weekend get away and then she'd make plans for the next one. So we trade off. I surprise her, she surprises me. But it takes making a commitment to do those things.

[Ladyjane14]

My original question was does making her chase me by stepping back from sex work?

 

I've been real busy and I have to admit I've only just skimmed the thread... but I don't really think this is a good idea, James.

 

To begin with... this strategy is NOT representative of your true goal, which is a more satisfying sex-life. Since it's not in keeping with your goal, it's not really honest or 'from the heart'. It smacks of game-playing. And "game-playing" is detrimental to the emotional intimacy of the relationship.

 

There's only just a couple of ways that your wife could view a sudden lack of interest on your part. One, is that she views herself as unattractive to you....quite a dash of cold water on an already struggling libido. The other is that she views it as childish and spiteful. And while I'm sure you don't mean it that way, most of us have a tendancy to view another person's behavior in an egocentric way. Pouting is not an attractive quality in a big, strong, burly man, but I think that's what it'll look like from her POV.

 

From your perspective, you might just be taking a break from feelings of sexual rejection, but from hers... it's all about punishing her for her lack of enthusiasm.

 

What's worse, is that from a physiological standpoint, YOUR need for sexual fulfillment will increase, but hers will wane.

 

Good sex increases libido for women.

So... the more you have, the more she'll want. If you go weeks on end in between bouts of lovemaking... you're fighting an uphill battle.

 

My advice to you is to pull out all the stops, and get that woman back into your bed. Get her there as often as you can too, and don't internalize rejections when they happen. Also... no pressure, mind you.... but make sure you ROCK HER WORLD when you get the chance.

[Flyin in Clouds]

yeah what ladyj said...

[stoopid_guy]

There's only just a couple of ways that your wife could view a sudden lack of interest on your part. One, is that she views herself as unattractive to you....quite a dash of cold water on an already struggling libido. The other is that she views it as childish and spiteful. And while I'm sure you don't mean it that way, most of us have a tendancy to view another person's behavior in an egocentric way. Pouting is not an attractive quality in a big, strong, burly man, but I think that's what it'll look like from her POV.

 

From your perspective, you might just be taking a break from feelings of sexual rejection, but from hers... it's all about punishing her for her lack of enthusiasm.

So... Not asking for something the spouse doesn't want to give is a bad thing? He's maybe making her feel unattractive and undesirable? Or punishing her by not bugging her so she can go to sleep, or do any number of things she'd rather be doing than making love?

 

What's worse, is that from a physiological standpoint, YOUR need for sexual fulfillment will increase, but hers will wane.

 

Actually, a man can satisfy his own physiological need for sexual release. And by not being intimately involved with a woman, his emotional desire for her will decrease and (perhaps) focus elsewhere. The pain of her rejection will go away, but not if he keeps the wound open by hoping and trying to rebuild things.

 

While I understand what you're saying, LJ, there may come a point when it's time to let go. By "backing away," it will either force the other spouse to assume some responsibility in the relationship, or end the relationship.

[Ladyjane14]

So... Not asking for something the spouse doesn't want to give is a bad thing?

 

After having given it quite a bit of thought, I really do believe that we each have a responsibility in our relationships to ask for what we need. While it's true that most folks who are experiencing deficits in their sexual relationship ARE in fact doing just that, (and getting pretty exasperated with it over time )... I still think it's necessary to keep on asking.

 

JamesM's emotional needs are his own. His wife doesn't share the same ENs that he does. It's fabulous when two people intuitively understand and support the other's needs, but it doesn't always pan out that way. Ultimately, James is responsible for his own EN fulfillment. They're his ENs, not hers.

 

What's worse, I just can't imagine how entering into a state of withdrawal will further his cause. "Withdrawal" impedes emotional imtimacy. Emotional intimacy is an important ingredient in achieving physical intimacy on a regular basis.

 

...there may come a point when it's time to let go. By "backing away," it will either force the other spouse to assume some responsibility in the relationship, or end the relationship.

 

In actuality... it does neither. I'm sad to report it, but I'm in the BTDT Club, having been on the receiving end of this particular gambit more times than I can possibly count.

 

It doesn't work.

 

It comes off as childish, and the only thing it's ever accomplished in my relationship is to piss me off more. Everytime he pulled that one on me, I just laid my ears back like a mule and refused to budge. My attitude was that if he wanted to play a child's game with me... FINE. I could give as good as I got. The idea that he wouldn't just grow the f*ck up and TALK TO ME was a source of fuel with which I could continuously feed my resentment.

 

Dude... we could go for weeks on end like that.

Both of us too stubborn to back down, and neither willing to put our cards on the table. Eventually, we'd just act like it never happened and resume relations for awhile. And of course... having failed to work through the problem, we'd find ourselves right back in it again, reliving the mini-drought over and over and over again.

 

So no... my husband wasn't able to 'force me to assume responsibility'. He only succeeded at stirring up my temper and prolonging the conflict. And as far as 'ending the relationship' goes, we weren't going to get a divorce and destoy our family dynamic over a pissing match. People will tolerate alot of aggravation if the relationship overall is serviceable.

[stoopid_guy]

It doesn't work.

 

It comes off as childish, and the only thing it's ever accomplished in my relationship is to piss me off more. Everytime he pulled that one on me, I just laid my ears back like a mule and refused to budge. My attitude was that if he wanted to play a child's game with me... FINE. I could give as good as I got. The idea that he wouldn't just grow the f*ck up and TALK TO ME was a source of fuel with which I could continuously feed my resentment.

 

Dude... we could go for weeks on end like that.

Both of us too stubborn to back down, and neither willing to put our cards on the table. Eventually, we'd just act like it never happened and resume relations for awhile. And of course... having failed to work through the problem, we'd find ourselves right back in it again, reliving the mini-drought over and over and over again.

 

So no... my husband wasn't able to 'force me to assume responsibility'. He only succeeded at stirring up my temper and prolonging the conflict. And as far as 'ending the relationship' goes, we weren't going to get a divorce and destoy our family dynamic over a pissing match. People will tolerate alot of aggravation if the relationship overall is serviceable.

So in your case, it was as much a communications issue as a libido (or lack of) issue.

 

I do think it makes more sense for the lower libido partner to set the frequency of sex though. If they initiate it when they feel like it, the more eager partner isn't going to feel the rejection and frustration of failure, and the less eager isn't going to guilty for saying "no."

 

It's also true that if the less eager partner is completely frigid in this case, it's going to risk the marriage, but it might well be a marriage that was doomed from the start.

 

(Not talking about specific cases here, just in general.)

[Mr. Lucky]

I do think it makes more sense for the lower libido partner to set the frequency of sex though. If they initiate it when they feel like it, the more eager partner isn't going to feel the rejection and frustration of failure, and the less eager isn't going to guilty for saying "no."

Seems like a "lowest common denominator" approach that sets the bar dangerously low. If the lower libido partner sets the frequency at once a month (as was the case in my marriage), then the more eager partner is left with few (good) options. And to suffer in silence so that the less eager partner can avoid feeling pressured or guilty only ensures that ones situation becomes more desparate. I think that you have no choice but to speak up under those circumstances, if nothing else to at least keep the dialog going.

 

Mr. Lucky

[JamesM]

Okay, a bit of an update...

 

As I said earlier, I mentioned to my wife that we do not spend as much time together, and she doesn't seem as "loving"...ie hugs and kisses. She agreed and said it was her work schedule. She needs to spend time to feel connected...in order to feel "in love." Despite what Flyinthe clouds might think, I did not "step up and be a man"...no, rather I communicated my feelings. I think women do this, too.

 

Anyhow, the next day...Friday...we did spent more time together. We made an effort to sit on the couch and cuddle, talk and listen. Saturday night...or shall I say Sunday morning...I was awaken to the fact that a naked woman was kissing me. I think we all know what came next...no pun intended. A fun time was had by all.

 

So, for the past few days, we have made time for each other. She did not work, so it was easy. I can see what she meant...connecting to her means sharing, communicating, etc. When we don't do that, she loses that loving feeling. When she feels connected, she hugs and kisses. She looks at me with that certain expression and longing. It has been time well spent. A lesson was learned...again.

 

Would "stepping back from sex" work for us? I don't think so. What works is simply spending time together. It means shutting off the TV and sitting in the same room. It means cuddling, and yes, it means that closeness brings on sexual intimacy.

 

Two months of almost celibacy have passed. We have once again connected. And yes, I know, just as the bad times pass, so do the good. Work is needed at all times to ensure that they return quickly.

[Mr. Lucky]

Two months of almost celibacy have passed. We have once again connected.

I hate to be a "glass is half-empty" guy, but intimacy once in two months is not "connected" (I speak from experience ). You just treated the symptoms, not the illness.

 

Mr. Lucky

[JamesM]

I hate to be a "glass is half-empty" guy, but intimacy once in two months is not "connected" (I speak from experience ). You just treated the symptoms, not the illness.

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I am not arguing with you. Actually, we have had sexual intimacy twice. Since she goes to bed after me, this does damper our sex lives, but she has tried to regain it...this is what is encouraging. Last nite, I again woke to a naked woman. She "invited" me out to lunch earlier this week, and we both decided that this should happen more often...once a week. Since she has initiated much of this, it is encouraging.

 

I do know when my wife has regained her "joy of life with me". This has returned. During our six years or so of almost celibacy, there was a much different attitude between us. But I am also a bit of a pessimistic. And that is why I added that

just as the bad times pass, so do the good. Work is needed at all times to ensure that they return quickly.

 

What I have learned again is that assuming the worst can keep me from gaining back the best.

[norajane]

She needs to spend time to feel connected...in order to feel "in love."

 

Anyhow, the next day...Friday...we did spent more time together. We made an effort to sit on the couch and cuddle, talk and listen.

 

I can see what she meant...connecting to her means sharing, communicating, etc. When we don't do that, she loses that loving feeling. When she feels connected, she hugs and kisses. She looks at me with that certain expression and longing.

 

What works is simply spending time together. It means shutting off the TV and sitting in the same room. It means cuddling, and yes, it means that closeness brings on sexual intimacy.

 

Along the lines of what I and some others were saying about how women don't automatically understand that men in committed relationships need sex in order to feel love and intimacy...

 

...is it news to you that women need to feel emotionally connected in order to want sex? And is it surprising that connected requires time spent together on non-sexual communication and activities?

 

...if you did know this already, do you need to be reminded of it every now and then?

[JamesM]

...is it news to you that women need to feel emotionally connected in order to want sex? And is it surprising that connected requires time spent together on non-sexual communication and activities?

 

Yes and no. No, it isn't news...I guess I knew it, but I didn't realize what disconnection is. In other words, I didn't feel that we lost the connection because I am home more than she is. For her, most of her life isn't even in the house...let alone with me. No, I knew that non-sexual activities were necessary.

 

...if you did know this already, do you need to be reminded of it every now and then?

 

Absolutely.

[norajane]

Yes and no. No, it isn't news...I guess I knew it, but I didn't realize what disconnection is. In other words, I didn't feel that we lost the connection because I am home more than she is. For her, most of her life isn't even in the house...let alone with me. No, I knew that non-sexual activities were necessary.

 

 

Absolutely.

 

K...then you can understand how she might also need to be reminded that for you sex = emotional intimacy and love, and you need sex to feel connected to her. So telling her once back in April might not necessarily be enough. Keep talking to her.

[a4a]

K...then you can understand how she might also need to be reminded that for you sex = emotional intimacy and love, and you need sex to feel connected to her. So telling her once back in April might not necessarily be enough. Keep talking to her.

 

Yes indeed one chat is not enough...... just ask my H. It took about 9 months for him to start to really grasp the concept of I want something differently than he does.

[JamesM]

K...then you can understand how she might also need to be reminded that for you sex = emotional intimacy and love, and you need sex to feel connected to her. So telling her once back in April might not necessarily be enough. Keep talking to her.

 

You would have thought I would have seen that coming...! Like a horse led to the watering trough. Norajane, good response.

 

You are right. And yes, I should remind her more often that we haven't had sex, but two things I am "afraid" of...one, a lack of interest on her part if she feels that she "has" to do it, and two, the possibility of rejection. But I know I am not doing my marriage a service by stifling my feelings either.

 

Thank you.

[norajane]

You would have thought I would have seen that coming...! Like a horse led to the watering trough. Norajane, good response.

 

 

*hangs head*

 

I confess, that's exactly what I was doing.

 

 

 

 

You are right. And yes, I should remind her more often that we haven't had sex, but two things I am "afraid" of...one, a lack of interest on her part if she feels that she "has" to do it, and two, the possibility of rejection. But I know I am not doing my marriage a service by stifling my feelings either.

 

Thank you.

So, reminding her doesn't have to occur only when you're not getting sex so it comes off as pushing her to do it. You can "lead" her to her own realizations:

 

Right after you've had sex, you can tell her how close you feel to her then, how connected you feel to her right then, how special it made you feel when she woke you up the way she did, how intimate it was when she looked into your eyes while...

 

And then reinforce your after-sex conversation by showing her for days afterwards how connected you feel to her (through the touches and kisses and hugs), through the non-sexual communication - turning off the TV, making her a cup of tea when she comes home and rubbing her shoulders as she tells you about her day, etc.

 

And if the mini-drought goes on too long, you can tell her you miss the connection and would like to plan a day or evening when the two of you can just hang around together and get reaquainted (without even mentioning the sex part - she'll get it, like a horse led to water)...or plan a date and take her out...