People who minimize cheating and affairs

[Walk]

Once one has cheated, one will always be cheater, even if one never cheats again.

 

But none of that is considered cheating. Yes I have "lust" for the OW... so like Jimmy Carter I have lusted after other women in my heart... which is technically in the Christian world a sin, but sorry, that's how I feel about this woman. I've known her forever and I'm attracted. "Did I have sex with that woman. No,....... but I'd like to..."

 

No one is either all or nothing. I don't agree with your statement. I think maybe we could just agree to disagree on this...?

 

Flyin... I'm going to say this because I see a potential for you to really screw up your life if you aren't careful. And you can discard everything I'm about to say because I'm the morally corrupt and you're the pure one... but I really see a situation where you're setting yourself up for a big problem. This friend of your wife's is too close. You do want her sexually, and you have thought about it. I'm not saying you'll act on it... but that is a BIG step toward cheating. I'm not trying to accuse you of anything. I'm just saying be careful. Ok? Get some distance between you and this friend. Don't flirt, don't buy sexy clothes for her, don't be alone with her. You think cheaters set out to cheat? We pre-planned it? That one day we woke up and thought, "Hey, you know what? I want to destroy everyone's life today, how about I bonk Sally over there."

 

The guy I cheated with was my exh's friend. Close proximity. I found him attractive. I had no problems dismissing him when things were going okay in the marriage. There wasn't even any desire there for him. WHen things started getting problematic in the relationship.. that's when my 'feelings' for the friend become the strongest. I started dreaming about him, started imagining him during sex, desired the friend.... nothing happened for the longest time. I was strong. I didn't act on my feelings. I worked on the marriage. Then one night, in one instant, he kissed me. We'd just been talkign about stupid stuff. Not even flirting or anything. We hadn't even been sitting close to each other.. but one second he's over there. next second he's kissing me. And in the blink of an eye, I realized I couldn't undo it. I hadn't even choosen to do it. I hadn't made a decision to do anything, but it happened. It took two seconds for me to switch from faithful spouse to cheater. Two seconds. Blink of an eye. But then all the feelings hit me. The desire, the longing, all the fantasies... etc. etc.. Emotional wirlwind of confusion that I couldn't sort through.

 

All I'm saying is, you're faithful right now... But you're really pushing the line. I hope you heed the warning and don't dismiss me. You need to create more distance between you and this other woman. Love her all you want.. but if you don't want to cross that line into "forever a cheater" then back the hell off from that woman. Focus on the one you have. Your relationship with your wife isn't always going to be easy... if you start having problems remove the temptation of this other woman. You're not as pure as you believe you are.

[lindya]

you can discard everything I'm about to say because I'm the morally corrupt and you're the pure one... but I really see a situation where you're setting yourself up for a big problem. This friend of your wife's is too close. You do want her sexually, and you have thought about it. I'm not saying you'll act on it... but that is a BIG step toward cheating.

 

I think you have a good point, Walk. People often do vent most vehemently against a type of behaviour when they're feeling a bit tempted to indulge in it themselves.

[Mz. Pixie]

I think you have a good point, Walk. People often do vent most vehemently against a type of behaviour when they're feeling a bit tempted to indulge in it themselves.

 

This is what I've been trying to say!!! I'm actually reading a really good book right now about forgiveness. And this guy is a Christian marriage specialist who counsels people. He says it's always easy to pick out in a group the ones who have cheated or thought about it or been tempted because they are the ones who protest the loudest and call the cheaters out the worst. He talks about how he's conducting a seminar one day and this woman is all bitter and damning cheaters into hell and he looked at her and said "So, when did you have your affair?" and she collapsed into tears because he was right.

[Mz. Pixie]

Mz. P, your marriage was shot. Get divorce. Depends on which side your on? I'm sure your H has a similar point of view. From his side ...

 

so you both endured pain or caused each other pain. In a way, he cause you pain, so you felt justified in causing him an equal amount of pain. And please don't way you didn't know cheating would hurt him. It had to have crossed your mind. Or maybe you didn't care that you'd hurt him because of the hurt he had inflicted upon you.

 

If the marriage isn't working out, get out. You had no intention of fixing things up after your affair did you? Your marriage was over before your affair started. And so would you have cared at all if your H started see other women?

 

No, I wouldn't have cared. As a matter of fact I still do not know that he didn't have other women. He sure spent alot of time away from home, and many people that know our sitch said they wouldn't be surprised. I still do not think he did, but if I found out he had- I'd be okay with that.

 

See, that's the thing- I didn't think it would hurt him. Because his actions had shown me over and over and over that he didn't give a shxt about me. I thought when I told him I wanted a divorce he'd say FINALLY! Because he didn't treat me like he loved me. He said he did, but his actions didn't represent that. So, no, actually I didn't think it would hurt him- I didn't think he cared.

 

And I've said it about a million times before- yes, I should have just left and got divorced. I think you're not understanding though exactly how broken down I was at that time. And how it feels that when you're at your lowest point in your life, that the person who is suposed to care for you and love you and support you the most, can't be bothered to try to be that person for you.

[Walk]

That's grounds for a divorce, not cheating.

...I know it might be hard to leave but there isn't any other choice when their is that kind of abuse going on.

 

I did leave. I left 3 times. But when you have no friends, no family, no money, no where to go .. when you're starving and shivering from cold, it's hard to "be strong" and not go back to a place where at least your teeth dont' knock together from the cold....

 

And your ex and his friend. Still friends?

 

Last I knew, yes. If they aren't, it's becaues the friend told one to many lies. My exh gave him the opportunity to tell the whole truth, and he would forgive him for his part. He would've too, my ex that is. He would've forgiven it and continued the friendship. But I'm pretty sure the 'friend' lied. He was a really insecure guy. Very afraid to face his shadow. He'd run before he'd confront his ugly side. I told my ex the whole truth, which was upheld by a mutual friend on the matter. So my ex had all the facts of what happened. I didn't try to make me look better, or deflected blame onto the friend. I attempted to protect the friendship they had. It was my fault anyway.. so I accepted all the blame.

 

So here you are in a bad relationship and the thing that needs to happen is get out of it. And cheating and staying in the relationship is some how moving toward ending the relationship?

 

Your 1st gf left you. But you let her go, right? She told you she wanted to leave, and you grudgingly accepted it. You respected her and loved her so wanted what was best for her? You honored her wishes and let her go? Because my exh didn't. He wanted me there. no matter how I felt, or what pain I suffered. He felt he owned me. And he didn't care what he had to do... guilt, manipulation, stealing, whatever it took to keep his property from leaving. I flat out told him I was leaving, that I wanted a divorce. He knew every button to push to keep me there. To get his way. He was selfish. I was selfish. Our relationship was very unhealthy. Led both of us to do things that were damaging to each other. So yes. My cheating helped to destroy his desire to keep me. It helped me free myself. It wasn't concious at the time.. but looking back now, I think that was maybe a reason. I can't discount it. I was doing everything I could to get him to detach from me. To let go.

 

So aren't you asking that because he was a rotten guy, he deserved it? So you are saying that under certain circumstances cheating is justified. Aren't you?

 

No. I'm saying I don't believe in karma, or poetic justice, or whatever you want to call it. It's life. We live it. Make choices and either grow and learn, or continue to repeat our past. But if you want to say I deserve bad things, then you have to look at his past and ask if he deserved bad things too.

 

Now would either of you repeat your cheating if your current H's turned rotten one day? Or would you simply leave the marriage, get a divorce before cheating?

 

I'd leave. But I won't ever let anyone have control of me financially ever again. My bf has no access to my money. I keep enough so that if I want to leave, I can. I am not chained here by anything. I have a stronger connection to my family now. If things did get rough, I have a place to go. I have people I can ask for help. I won't get into another situation where I am at the mercy of my SO. I protect myself now.

 

So Walk if a wife ignores her H's needs - for years and years, blows him off without blowing him... is abusive verbally, does that justify him having an affair? Is he not a bad guy for cheating on her? Does it really work both ways? For men too?

 

I dont' agree that he should cheat. But I understand why he would. That's one of the reasons I really bust my ass to ensure my bf is well taken care of in that department. Man's sexual needs are NEEDS. not wants. And if they arent' fulfilled by me, then some other woman is going to step in and offer to fulfill them. Why would I intentionally neglect something that could tempt him to cheat?

 

I guess I don't understand... if I'm listening, ask questions, put effort into ensuring my partners needs are met, then I don't have to worry about him ever cheating on me. If he says he wants more bj's.. I'm there. He says he wants a quicky, I'm there. I demand the same in return.. except on an emotional level. He meets my emotional needs. I meet his sexual needs. When one of us slacks, we bring it up adn discuss it.

 

He has no reason to cheat. Basically what you're asking is.. if I neglected what he needs in life, and treated him badly, should I expect him to honor our promise of monogomy? I think if I broke such a founding promise by neglecting his needs and disrespecting him, promises that bind us together, then all promises are broken. Same goes for him. If he neglects my emotional needs, won't discuss it, wont' work to resolve it... then our union is broken. Our relationship is only an image at that point. There are no more promises. I don't expect him to uphold his side of the bargain, if I won't uphold mine. And all our promises are linked together, not seperate. Monogamy, respect, fulfilment of needs. They're all intertwined together.

 

What if your exH's future gf or wife treats him like dirt. As bad as he treated you. Should he have an affair?

 

I sincerely hope that my ex goes on to have an incredible wonderful relationship with someone who is compatible with him. If his gf/wife treats him like dirt, he should leave. I would hope that what 'we' experienced would show him that cheating doesn't accomplish anything. I would hope he would learn from it, not regress into childish behavior that had nothing to do with the new woman. What I really hope is that he stops being so co-dependent and learns how to have a healthy relationship. I don't want him to continue screwing up his happiness by resorting to behavior just because it's been done to him in the past. I was wrong... why should he follow my bad example? it makes no sense... It isn't a matter of "is he justified in it". Like everyone said, there is no justification for it. If he's so stupid as to think it was a good thing and he should follow my lead.. then I guess I gave him far too much credit on his intellect than he deserved.

[Mz. Pixie]

Well with regard to paying your taxes you are better than Martha aren't you? hmmm... no hers was securities fraud... OK, you haven't committed that crime either so yeah... you are better than her

That is my point, there has only been one perfect person ever, and his name was Jesus. When you get up to His status, we'll talk about how you can judge me.

 

And if she wants to save the marriage, she has to be willing to tolerate my affairs from then on. Otherwise no deal. I kick her worthless ass out immediately

What marriage would there be to rebuild?? Hopefully she would have more self esteem than to sit there and tolerate your affairs.

 

Women want one set of rules for themselves and a different set for their men. Screw that

You're generalizing- and neither Walk or I ever said there should be two sets of rules

 

 

That is because the cheating was worse Mz. P.... it was. Or what you are saying is his wrong equalled your wrongs. I.e. you are minimizing what you did as not that wrong in light of his wrongs

 

That's your opinion and you can spout it, because you weren't on my side of the pain. You've been on his side of the pain, but you haven't been on mine. I'm NOT saying what I did wasn't wrong- or that he asked for it- I'm saying the blame for the fail of the marriage was on BOTH parties, not just me.

 

Now would either of you repeat your cheating if your current H's turned rotten one day? Or would you simply leave the marriage, get a divorce before cheating?

 

I certainly would not. There is nothing in this whole world that would make me ever want to do that again. Not just because of the pain it caused my partner, but because of the pain it caused me. I figured that I've been abused enough in my life without heaping more abuse on myself. My marriage at this time would have to be pretty bad before I ever considered divorce. One reason for my feeling that way is because I've never been loved like my current H loves me. The only person that ever came close was my first love.

 

I do believe that cheating on a guy hurts a guy far more deeply than a man cheating on a woman. So why be surprised that men are concerned about cheating? To some extend a man's cheating can be excused because - "well he's just a man and that's how men are... " So a woman can just chalk it up to that. But when a man's wife cheats on him, particularly if he's deeply in love with his angle, well it destroys his whole world

That's generalizing again FIC, because you've been on that side of the issue. No one can say who's pain is more than the others because every single human feels things in different ways and depths. No ones cheating can be excused- man or woman. I'm beginning to think that you only dislike WOMEN who have cheated but yet think it's okay for a man.

 

Do guys ever feel women are a**holes to them? And are they ever justified in that feeling?

I'm sure they do. And they are entitled to feel any way that they want to. I've seen lots of mean, manipulative, backstabbing women in my lifetime who treat their H's or s/o's like sHxt. Hell, I was raised by one such woman. But I can promise you this, my exh had no issue with the way I treated him, or if he did he never said because I asked repeatedly. See, I thought all along there was something wrong with ME, that made him ignore me and my emotional needs. Turns out he was just selfish and immature.

 

You can decide to leave after being publicly humililate. With cheating you won't know you're being humiliated until it's long done

And why is it such public humiliation if only one or two people know?? It's not like someone's taking out a billboard saying "Julianna S. screwed around on Pete S."

 

So Walk if a wife ignores her H's needs - for years and years, blows him off without blowing him... is abusive verbally, does that justify him having an affair? Is he not a bad guy for cheating on her? Does it really work both ways? For men too? What if your exH's future gf or wife treats him like dirt. As bad as he treated you. Should he have an affair

 

It's wrong, just as much as when I did it, but I can certainly see why he would want to. I personally believe that BOTH parties- whether it's female or male- contribute to the problems in a marriage that lead to an affair. You yourself had problems with sex in your marriage. How would you have felt if you'd talked about those problems for years and years and your wife consistently ignored your pleas?? See, you're lucky, because she listened.

 

I have a friend. Married 17 years. His wife started refusing him on their honeymoon. He's done everything- I mean everything to try to mend their marriage. He's read at least 100 relationship books, tried counseling, tried to get her to work marriage builders, etc. She suffers from a narcassistic personalilty disorder like my mother did. She's been abusive to him for the entire marriage. Screaming cursing throwing things. He's loved her and been a good H to her this entire marriage. She still refuses him sexually. She actually told their marriage counselor that anyone should be happy to be married to her because she's so beautiful. He's successful and she's never really had to work hard her entire life. He does housework, surprises her with dates, is romantic, cooks does laundry. So, recently when he was telling me he was so sexually frustrated I told him I wouldn't blame him if he wanted to go out and meet someone to have his sexual needs met. He's serving her with divorce papers after the first of the year already- but I really really hate to see him suffering and I know how hard it is to live with a narcassist. Impossible really.

 

So, I do not believe it only applies to women.

 

When a man is so deeply in love with one woman, that his whole world is built around her, his entire future, I suppose that is being "co-dependent"? What women don't realize is the horrible effect they have on men

Well, if he's that in love with her to begin with, there should be some outward signs of that correct??

[Rooster_DAR]

I feel the people on this thread who have had affairs understand the pain and suffering it caused for everyone involved, and it' seems from their posts that they having taken responsibility for it. There are many men and women out there that continue with the premise that's affairs are okay, and will keep justifying it to keep themselve from feeling like a bad person.

 

I understand it' s not always black and white, and everyone including myself are not impervious to cheating. With that said, I can forgive someone if they had an affair and could talk about it with maturity and some degree or remorse. People who do it more than once, very unlikely that they can stay faithful and would be the end for me.

 

True, nobody is perfect but all we can do is try our best to better ourselves in every way possible.

 

Cheers!

[Flyin in Clouds]

20 years ago I would have agreed with this for the most part, but we in fact live in a different world now, and I think there is no discrimination with the genders anymore. Statistically, it seems that women have caught up in this race.

I don't think basic human nature has changed much in the several thousand years. Mores have changed. Our concept of morality has changed. Social customs have changed. But basic human desires or drives haven't.

[shoedevil]

So, recently when he was telling me he was so sexually frustrated I told him I wouldn't blame him if he wanted to go out and meet someone to have his sexual needs met.

Well, I'd never give a friend of mine advice like that. If he had wanted to go see a prositute, would you have supported him? Divorce may not be lightning quick, but when you encourage someone to go out and find anybody to use just to satisfy his or her immediate needs, that's contributing to this problem we've all been arguing over. The last thing I'd suggest would be to go outside of the relationship and use another human being merely for sexual stress-relief.

 

I agree with you that generalizations do no one any good. Some of us men think with our hearts and minds instead of our genitalia. Unless a man has a mental illness or an addiction, he can't claim he has no self-control. Some of us men don't put our sexual wants ahead of our consciences. I think all this talk of "needs" totally overstates things and merely provides a biological excuse for straying. Some of us men who think infidelity is horribly disrespectful aren't hypocrites who are secretly cheating on the side. And some of us men who haven't cheated and would like to settle down with a kindred spirit aren't just selfish and lacking compassion, are we?

[Flyin in Clouds]

No one is either all or nothing. I don't agree with your statement. I think maybe we could just agree to disagree on this...?

sure, guess we'll have to but all I'm saying is this. Once someone is a convicted felon, one is always a convicted felon. Does that mean all felons after serve their sentence, never fix their lives or become model citizens? No, many become exemplary citizens. And yes one either has been convicted of a felony or one has not. It is all or nothing in that sense.

 

but I really see a situation where you're setting yourself up for a big problem. This friend of your wife's is too close. You do want her sexually, and you have thought about it. I'm not saying you'll act on it... but that is a BIG step toward cheating. I'm not trying to accuse you of anything. I'm just saying be careful. Ok? Get some distance between you and this friend. Don't flirt, don't buy sexy clothes for her, don't be alone with her. You think cheaters set out to cheat? We pre-planned it? That one day we woke up and thought, "Hey, you know what? I want to destroy everyone's life today, how about I bonk Sally over there."

Look, this woman is a friend. Even if I wanted to, she sure wouldn't and I'm not stupid enough to even try. Do I fantasize about her? Yes, but that's true of just about every good looking women I know. I have been alone with her for lunch and invited into her house for some wine. It was a low point in my marriage when I was contemplating divorce or cheating or worse. I was depressed. Talking to her helped me get over it. She was concerend about me, my marriage, I was concerned about her, her bitterness over her divorce and I talked a long time about her finding another man to get her mind off her ex. She needed a job, so I helped her get one. Now that she's got a boyfriend again we can play bridge and do. Gone on short day wine country trips as couples. No I'm not going to isolate myself from her and no I'm not going to sleep with her even if she wanted me to which she wouldn't.

 

As to the cloths thing it was a one time joke. running shorts. She got them for me because she was laughing her ass off at some of the guys we were training with that wore them. They'd look good on a woman that short but on a guy... well not really.

 

... I hadn't made a decision to do anything, but it happened. It took two seconds for me to switch from faithful spouse to cheater. Two seconds. Blink of an eye. But then all the feelings hit me. The desire, the longing, all the fantasies... etc. etc.. Emotional wirlwind of confusion that I couldn't sort through.

I know I'll be called sexist for this... but what happened to you was refered to as "sweeping her off her feet". Do men get swept off their feet? I suppose some do. I don't know that men get caught up in an "emotional wirlwind" the way women do. See my fantasy about her isn't the emotional side, but the sexual side. And it did take the guy initiating with you. And I won't do that. I've know this women for over 25 years, and had the same fantasies about her all along and so I think if anything was going to happen it would have by now.

 

.. You need to create more distance between you and this other woman. Love her all you want.. but if you don't want to cross that line into "forever a cheater" then back the hell off from that woman.

We (wife, me and her friend and when he could her new guy) used to go walking 3 or 4 times a week - 5 to 10 miles. We'd have dinner and play bridge two or three times a month.

 

Your relationship with your wife isn't always going to be easy...

duh ...

 

if you start having problems remove the temptation of this other woman. You're not as pure as you believe you are.

If I have problem in my relationship with my wife this woman is about the one person in the world I could turn to and trust to help with those problems. Because she has known both of us for so long. Because she's a friend to both of us.

 

 

I think you're not understanding though exactly how broken down I was at that time. And how it feels that when you're at your lowest point in your life, that the person who is suposed to care for you and love you and support you the most, can't be bothered to try to be that person for you.

I think I understand it pretty well. Did you become suicidal? I did. I began to think it was the only "honorable" way out of a bad situation. After thinking about and rejecting cheating, and rejecting divorce, and thinking my wife no longer loved me at all and therefor my life was basically over, too old to start a new relationship, and a host of other reasons - yeah I think I know about hitting bottom. And the person that helped me the most get over it was my wife's friend. She helped me see things about my wife and my marriage that I had over looked or forgotten.

 

It was my fault anyway.. so I accepted all the blame.

Wait Walk, "friend" starts the kissing and it's all your fault? It takes two to tango and I fault the OW,OM as much as the cheater for aiding and abetting the crime. If friend hadn't started you wouldn't have cheated or at least not right then.

 

My bf has no access to my money. I keep enough so that if I want to leave, I can. I am not chained here by anything.

except love?

 

Why would I intentionally neglect something that could tempt him to cheat?

Good question. Why do so many women ignore a man's sexual needs and then are shocked when their man cheats on them?

 

if I'm listening, ask questions, put effort into ensuring my partners needs are met, then I don't have to worry about him ever cheating on me. If he says he wants more bj's.. I'm there. He says he wants a quicky, I'm there.

And what if he wants what you can not possibly supply? i.e. a totally different woman? Just because you "take care" of all his "needs" doesn't mean a man won't cheat. If he wants someone that is simply different than you, taller, shorter, bigger chested, flatter chested, green eyes instead of blue, younger, older, ... you can't be a completley different woman. That is an experience you can only partially satisfy by wearing higher heels, or flats, or changing hair color or style or length or ... Don't assume by doing everything right you can affair proof your relationship. It certainly helps but it's not a 100% guarantee.

 

not regress into childish behavior that had nothing to do with the new woman.

So cheating is childish?

 

there has only been one perfect person ever, and his name was Jesus. When you get up to His status, we'll talk about how you can judge me.

Would you like me to quote the part were Christians are required to judge people? Yes, we can make judgements about people with respect to our interaction with them in this world. I'll happily let the Lord judge what to do with their souls.

 

What marriage would there be to rebuild?? Hopefully she would have more self esteem than to sit there and tolerate your affairs.

That same statement applies to the BS when they discover the WS's affair.

 

and neither Walk or I ever said there should be two sets of rules

Women that want to rebuild the marriage after their affairs (which neither you nor walk wanted to do), and won't tolerate their H's affair should he choose to have one... want to two sets of rules to apply to the marriage.

 

You've been on his side of the pain, but you haven't been on mine.

I think I've been on both sides....

 

That's generalizing again FIC, ... I'm beginning to think that you only dislike WOMEN who have cheated but yet think it's okay for a man.

Generalization are generally useful. I think men have certain ways of looking at relationship issues and women have another. Are they always 100% true in all cases. No of course not.

 

As to only thinking female cheaters are the bay guys... wrong. My wife's friend - the one I fantasize about and the one that treated her H like dirt, and her H eventually cheated on her, ending in ugly divorce... I blame him even though she treated him like dirt. Very early in their marriage, after we had been on one of our cabin rental vacations and she'd been ragging on him all weekend, I asked him monday (he worked for me, was my CFO), anyway, I asked him why he put up with the abuse. He answered he loved her. But after 10 years of that kind of abuse he couldn't take it anymore. So he cheated. Were I fault him is putting up with the abuse in some misguided idea that doing so would not harm their relationship.

 

Were I fault myself is keeping my mouth shut and not sitting my friend down (the wife) and telling her look, if you want your H to do to you what your father did to your mother (her greatest fear - her H cheating on her like her father cheated on her mother), if you want history to repeat itself in your marriage then keep up the verbal abuse. But I didn't say that. It wasn't any of my business was it. So I kept quiet and the two people in the world that were closest to me and my wife went from loving each other to hating each other and destroying each other.

 

In case you haven't figured it out by now we (wife and I) had a pretty tight relationship with our friends. Their break up hurt. It still hurts me. They both had their share of fault, but HE is the one that cheated. And even if I had fantasies about her I would never have jeapordized our freindship or interfered in their relationship - ever. I would have done anything to help they stay together and be happy. But I kept my mouth shut.

 

I've seen lots of mean, manipulative, backstabbing women in my lifetime who treat their H's or s/o's like sHxt.

Maybe you know my friend...

 

whether it's female or male- contribute to the problems in a marriage that lead to an affair. You yourself had problems with sex in your marriage. How would you have felt if you'd talked about those problems for years and years and your wife consistently ignored your pleas?? See, you're lucky, because she listened.

Yes, I am lucky. Also because I didn't own a gun or I might have put a bullet in my head.

 

She suffers from a narcassistic personalilty disorder like my mother did. She's been abusive to him for the entire marriage. Screaming cursing throwing things.

Sounds like a woman I know....

 

He's serving her with divorce papers after the first of the year already- but I really really hate to see him suffering and I know how hard it is to live with a narcassist. Impossible really.

And she'll be totally surprised, shocked and blame him entirely. He better make sure she doesn't have any guns around...

[Flyin in Clouds]

...Unless a man has a mental illness or an addiction, he can't claim he has no self-control. Some of us men don't put our sexual wants ahead of our consciences. I think all this talk of "needs" totally overstates things and merely provides a biological excuse for straying. Some of us men who think infidelity is horribly disrespectful aren't hypocrites who are secretly cheating on the side. ...

 

This is the thing about my friend. She's very attractive. She's different than my wife though both are blue-eyed blonds. And as much as I might like to nail her in some fantasy orgy, I never would because I know it would hurt everyone, her, my wife and me. I wouldn't jeopardize my relationship with my wife or with my friend for a little sexual thrill. That would be stupid.

[Mz. Pixie]

I think I understand it pretty well. Did you become suicidal? I did. I began to think it was the only "honorable" way out of a bad situation. After thinking about and rejecting cheating, and rejecting divorce, and thinking my wife no longer loved me at all and therefor my life was basically over, too old to start a new relationship, and a host of other reasons - yeah I think I know about hitting bottom. And the person that helped me the most get over it was my wife's friend. She helped me see things about my wife and my marriage that I had over looked or forgotten.

 

 

I did become severely depressed- and compounded with the hysterectomy, as well as the death of the only person who ever loved me unconditionally- that kinda drove me over the edge. As someone who has always been extremely strong and stood up to tremendous abuse in my past, it does bother me tremendously that I did have a weak moment.

 

What would have happened if the person you turned to- your wife's friend- would have put the moves on you- at your weakest moment?? Do you think you would have been unable to resist?? I think it's ironic that you admire her so much considering how horrible that you think she was. Perhaps that was your friends attraction to her as well?? Hell on wheels and hard to tame?? A wildcat??

 

I think instead of referring to the book of the Bible where it says you can sit in judgement of me perhaps you should refer to the woman who was about to be stoned for adultery. He told them that He who was without sin should cast the first stone. So when they all left and He asked her where her accusers went- He said, "They do not condemn you and NEITHER DO I- go and sin no more"

 

That's my Savior saying he would not condemn me, an adulteress, but to go and sin no more. Which is exactly what I plan on doing.

 

See, it's hard for most people to comprehend that to God, sin is sin. He doesn't put them into slots and say that someone who lies or lusts upon another woman is a level up on those who commit adultery. At least, that is the way I read my Bible.

[Mz. Pixie]

Well, I'd never give a friend of mine advice like that. If he had wanted to go see a prositute, would you have supported him? Divorce may not be lightning quick, but when you encourage someone to go out and find anybody to use just to satisfy his or her immediate needs, that's contributing to this problem we've all been arguing over. The last thing I'd suggest would be to go outside of the relationship and use another human being merely for sexual stress-relief.

 

 

But you underestimate what it's like to live with someone for years and years and not have any of your needs met. You haven't experienced that, and until you have, you can't really even begin to understand what that feels like.

 

I wasn't suggesting that he use someone for sex without their consent. I said that I wouldn't blame him if he did have an affair. I wasn't glorifying it but rather saying "Hey, I could understand if you felt the need to" It's honestly not any of my business, unless he chooses to tell me.

 

I did tell him though that he needed to be careful because then she'd have something to use against him, and also, he had been lonely for so long- and hadn't had his needs met in so long, it would be easy for him to fall for the first woman that treated him with the smallest amount of kindness. He knows my story, he knows the pain I've been through. But he doesn't judge me, because he knows how I felt before I had the affair- he had felt the same way- he just hasn't cheated yet. He may never cheat and good for him if he doesn't.

 

It's kind of like having cancer or some other type of illness. You can sympathize with a person but you can't ever really know what it feels like until you go through it yourself. FIC seems to have an inkling of what that feels like having been through something similar but unless you've lived it, it's really hard to relate.

 

What compounds things in his case is that his wife is mentally ill. Google narcassistic personality disorder and read up on that. Then multiply that by say 100 or 1000 times and you can get a picture of what it's like to live with someone like that. Mentally ill but will never seek treatment because they do not think anything is wrong with them, it's everyone else who has a problem.

 

For instance, a normal mother would never tell her daughter that she should have sex with her stepfather because he paid her private school tuition right? But my mother told me that I should have- and shut up about it- and not told anyone. Not normal right??

 

Deal with that for a couple of years and be afraid to leave your children with her to separate- being scared that she may harm them should you try to take custody. That's a living nightmare.

[shoedevil]

But you underestimate what it's like to live with someone for years and years and not have any of your needs met. You haven't experienced that, and until you have, you can't really even begin to understand what that feels like.

No, I couldn't possibly know what he feels like. I wasn't questioning his feelings. I was merely wondering why you'd give him the green light (or at least not discourage him) from having an affair. Doesn't that kind of fly in the face of your religious sentiments (I'm not doubting them)? My point was, that when people cheat, they're not only showing disrespect to their partners, but they're also using the person they're cheating with merely for sex. Sometimes intimacy, but mostly just sexual release. The affair is consensual, of course, but the other man/woman is really only a sexual object to the cheater. That's all I meant...

 

You mentioned he was married 17 years w/kids, yet these problems started on their honeymoon? I think that would have clued me in to some problems beginning to form. Don't you think a divorce court would look at a women with severe mental problems and gladly grant a divorce and full custody of the kids to your friend?

[SueBee3490]

And I didn't say that women were not terribly hurt by their spouses affair, but that men tend to be more deeply hurt than women. I may be wrong about that, but it seems to me women view their mates cheating differently than a man views his mates cheating. And I don't believe saying those differences exist is being sexist.

 

I viewed my mate's cheating as cheating whether it be physical or emotional. I know some people want to believe the vast majority of women aren't as hurt by their H/bf having a physical relationshipw ith someone as much as if it was just emotional. Bull - by my bf having a physical relationship with women, he put my health in danger. One woman he went with offered me alot of info on their "meetings". Seems they used protection "part of the time" as she put it. Now when we dated, we used no protection (except I was on the pill) because I believed he was faithful. By him showing such little respect for me to go and screw some woman he met on the internet without protection, then come to me and not use protection with me, well that's the ultimate low-life. He could at least of made up some excuse to use a condom with me, knowing he could be giving me a disease, but he didn't.

 

So as a woman what part of the cheating hurt you the most? Your husband having sex with another woman or your husband's emotional involvement with the other woman and his emotional abandonment of you? Was it the lying? What hurt you the most about his affair?

 

I really don't know what hurts the most but probably it would be that I found out he went out on me 1 1/2 yrs into our dating. Now I was warned by friends that I should drop him because someone that would cheat on you after dating you for 1 1/2 yrs is no good. There weren't problems in our relationship that I could see so I was really blindsided by this. But he begged and cried and told me how sorry he was so I forgave him and stayed with him. I really believed he made a mistake and was sorry. I cried so much and even wrote him a 5 page letter of my feelings and how much he hurt me. He swore he wouldn't do it again because, in his words, "he saw how much that hurt me." Now after 2 1/2 yrs we get married and shortly after I find out that he continued to cheat on me. So I think it's the fact that I gave him another chance and he just used me like a doormat. He knew how much that hurt me the first time around. He could have walked away and continued to date all these other women, but he kept me on a string too and lead me to believe that going out with this other woman was a mistake and he only wanted me. I don't understand it.

 

Then again I also hurt over knowing what these women looked like and seeing their faces and his together having sex is not a good image in my mind either. So the physical side of it with him having sex with others hurts too.

 

In your case, the question in my mind would always be, what else hasn't he told you?

 

I don't know - I'm always wondering which is why I want to get out of this marriage.

[Flyin in Clouds]

...

What would have happened if the person you turned to- your wife's friend- would have put the moves on you- at your weakest moment?? Do you think you would have been unable to resist??

Yes.

 

I think it's ironic that you admire her so much considering how horrible that you think she was. Perhaps that was your friends attraction to her as well?? Hell on wheels and hard to tame?? A wildcat??

It's hard to explain but on one level I know she'd be relationship hell. OTOH, she's pretty hot looking... see the attraction is purely sexual, not emotional.

That's my Savior saying he would not condemn me, an adulteress, but to go and sin no more. Which is exactly what I plan on doing

Yeah but I'm not Christ so forgivig would be a little harder for me. He also said the one legit reason for divorce was adultery.

See, it's hard for most people to comprehend that to God, sin is sin.

Since he forgives all sin what does it matter to Him? Might as well go for the big sins...

[Wantingtogetitright]

There is no such thing as it just happened. You may feel attracted to someone but you do nothing about it. Flirting with someone you fancy is wrong as well. It is completely disrespectful to your partner. And if it is just for kicks or ego - gro up and take a good hard look at yourself and learn not to be a selfish jerk. If you are tempted you look at your current situation. Are you tempted cos things aren't great at home. There are 2 choices, leave or try and fix it at home.

 

Do not flirt or behave inappropriately to allow a situation to escalate. The best way to term this definition is this. Would you do or say the exact same thing with your partner standing there? If the answer is No, then there's the answer. It's crossed a boundary. You don't want boundaries, then get out of a committed monogamous reationship.

 

Quite simple really. No excuses, no justifications make any kind of cheating OK.

 

Conversely - to those people who are single and knowingly enter into a flirtation and encourage an affair etc with someone whom you know to be in a relationship. Just rememeber this. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You are evil, disgusting people and you have no excuses in any circumstance either.

 

It is a black and white issue and anyone that sees it as grey is just deluding themselves for 2 reasons, assuaging their own guilt or trying to come to terms with accepting a cheating partner.

[Flyin in Clouds]

I viewed my mate's cheating as cheating whether it be physical or emotional. I know some people want to believe the vast majority of women aren't as hurt by their H/bf having a physical relationshipw ith someone as much as if it was just emotional. Bull - by my bf having a physical relationship with women, he put my health in danger.

I don't mean to minimize your pain and suffering.

 

But what bothered you the most. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being most painful.

 

Fear of STD?

H's emotional connection to other woman?

H's having sex with other woman?

Fear of H leaving for other woman?

H's lying and hiding things, keeping secrets - trust issues.

[Walk]

I know I'll be called sexist for this... but what happened to you was refered to as "sweeping her off her feet". Do men get swept off their feet? I suppose some do. I don't know that men get caught up in an "emotional wirlwind" the way women do. See my fantasy about her isn't the emotional side, but the sexual side. And it did take the guy initiating with you. And I won't do that. I've know this women for over 25 years, and had the same fantasies about her all along and so I think if anything was going to happen it would have by now.

 

Maybe.. but men are incredibly easy to manipulate. Especially if he's feeling low, and sexually unsatisfied. You're like putty in a woman's hands.

 

Wait Walk, "friend" starts the kissing and it's all your fault? It takes two to tango and I fault the OW,OM as much as the cheater for aiding and abetting the crime. If friend hadn't started you wouldn't have cheated or at least not right then.

 

I could've turned away, moved back.. etc. etc.. .. and then I had plenty of opportunities to alter course after that instant and I chose not to. He's not a character I would want to involve in my life again. But I can't blame the guy for being opportunistic. Men are pigs. hahaha I'm kidding about the pig part..

 

And what if he wants what you can not possibly supply? i.e. a totally different woman? Just because you "take care" of all his "needs" doesn't mean a man won't cheat. If he wants someone that is simply different than you, taller, shorter, bigger chested, flatter chested, green eyes instead of blue, younger, older, ... you can't be a completley different woman. That is an experience you can only partially satisfy by wearing higher heels, or flats, or changing hair color or style or length or ... Don't assume by doing everything right you can affair proof your relationship. It certainly helps but it's not a 100% guarantee.

 

I don't know... Do you have any ideas? (not being sarcastic, i'm being serious)

 

I've talked to my bf before about this, cause it has weighed on my mind in the past. But he told me.. it's not what I don't have, or what color my hair is, or how big my boobs are... that for him, desire is created mostly from the brain... Words, actions, tailoring specific circumstances to play upon his fantasy's. Using words to shape and heighten the experience, to tap into the brains power by suggestions and supporting it with actions. No matter what I look like.. I can create a desire that no super model could ever match. 'Cause "Even a super model had some guy who got tired of ****ing her."

 

I guess I dont' worry too much if he wants big boobed bertha, or tall tammy. I just do the best I can. He has the opportunity to sleep with any number of women during the week, and I'd be none the wiser. But I also know he's not very driven by the mere prospect of exposed flesh. And I know what secretly drives him... so as long as I fulfill that.. I'm golden.

 

But I was thinking... I would be hurt if my bf lusted after my best friend. Fantasized about her while screwing me. I'm not so naive as to believe I'm the only woman in my bf's head... we've talked about it before... but as long as he isn't fixated on one person, someone we know. But what you are doing would hurt me greatly. I'm having a hard time pin pointing why it would be so hurtful... I mean, technically you aren't doing anything. But mentally you would be off limits in a way. Hidden. Secretive. Hiding what you most desire, from the one you proclaim to love the most. I think that would hurt me a great deal more than a single sexual act of lust. Because I would feel that the most inner part of him was unknown. I feel close to my bf because I know what fuels his desire. Those fantasy's and desires that create the highest highs. But if those were stolen from me. With held... I would feel cheated. Cheated out of what was "ours" and ours only. It would have been given to someone else. And I'd have nothing to rail against. No one to be angry at because I wouldn't be able to say "THIS is wrong." I'd only be left with a feeling that something was missing. Left feeling like I wasn't good enough, and not even understanding why I felt that way....

 

P.s. I wanted to add. This (above) is my biggest fear. not the physical cheating, but what you described between you and the friend..

[SueBee3490]

I don't mean to minimize your pain and suffering.

 

But what bothered you the most. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being most painful.

 

Fear of STD?

H's emotional connection to other woman?

H's having sex with other woman?

Fear of H leaving for other woman?

H's lying and hiding things, keeping secrets - trust issues.

 

Not sure FIC - probably the most painful overall is the trust issues. If he had cheated on me then told me (not me catching him at it) and was remorseful and willing to go to counseling, then maybe I wouldn't hurt as bad - I don't know because that is not how my situation happened. I caught him so understandably I don't trust him because he only admitted it after being caught. How would I have felt if he had informed me of his cheating? I'm not sure I would feel much different than I do now - I don't think I would want to stay with him. He has shown he is capable of cheating on me over and over and not feeling guilt (unless caught).

 

He tried to tell me he did feel guilty because the last woman he saw (while engaged to me mind you), he got up in the middle of the night and left. I'm supposed to feel "good" that his conscience finally spoke to him that screwing this woman when he's marrying me in 3 weeks isn't right. Of course by that time he had been with her 3-4 times. So I said to him, your conscience should have been working that 1st night you were with her and you would have left in the middle of the night then I "might" think you're remorseful.

 

My fear of STD is there but of course getting hit in the face with the whole cheating, betraying, lying, side of this probably caused more pain. I know I don't have an STD but I could have gotten one from him which is what made me angry. You don't take chances with AIDS.

 

His connection to other women is painful because while I'm discussing personal issues with him, I'm thinking this is between us. He would discuss our relationship with some of these women which really p**ssed me off. I did not want them knowing anything about me or my family.

 

His having sex with others hurt immensely because that is very intimate and personal and he just used them and me. In my mind, you have to have an emotional connection with the person before having sex. Just meeting someone you don't know to have sex just wouldn't work with me. Maybe if I didn't know what they looked like, it may have been easier to take the physical side of it, but I did see them. Since he met a few on the internet, they have profiles with pictures so then I can see in my mind him and them together and that is painful.

 

As far as my fear of him leaving me. I never thought of that. Of course by the time I found out, we were married so the just packing up and leaving became considerably harder. We had bought a home together - but thank God I don't have any children with him. I saw the women he cheated on me with and I knew from their pictures, he wouldn't leave me. He is so superficial that when I asked him why he didn't take this latest woman to any of his family get togethers, he said he wouldn't take her because she was too fat. I told him she's good enough to screw but not good enough to take around your brothers for their approval. His brothers/sister-in-laws liked me and they were unaware of him dating anyone but me. But I felt just as sorry for this woman that he was leading on and she didn't know how he was embarassed to be seen with her. That's pretty low.

 

The more that has come to light about him, the more I don't like him and really after thinking it all over, I don't want to work out this marriage. I would rather start all over with someone who doesn't cheat, then live the rest of my life wondering day to day if he's cheaing, lying, seeing someone behind my back. Life's too short to worry about that.

[Walk]

I'm sorry SueBee3490 that you had to go through this. I think you're completely right in divorcing him and getting him as far out of your life as possible. His "getting up and leaving" doesn't prove anything. He hasnt' given you any reason to believe he's taken a good hard look at his actions and reached any level of self awareness for why he is doing this. Nothing will change unless that happens.

 

Have you filed for divorce yet? When you do, put everything in writing that you want to keep. Including legally changing your name back. But I wouldn't fight too much about dividing stuff. Things are replaceable, your time is not.

[Mz. Pixie]

You mentioned he was married 17 years w/kids, yet these problems started on their honeymoon? I think that would have clued me in to some problems beginning to form. Don't you think a divorce court would look at a women with severe mental problems and gladly grant a divorce and full custody of the kids to your friend?

 

Well in most situations you would be right. I wasn't clear enough probably in my description of him and their marriage. She started refusing him sexually on their honeymoon. Then when their second child was small she fell while hiking and hit her head. That escalated her BPD behavior to the highest level. That's more when the rages started and the emotional abuse. He's very religious- and he was honestly afraid to leave her with those children if they should split up.

 

The thing about people who are BPD is that they are brilliant actors and actresses. They can fool almost anyone because they can turn their behavior on and off. At first he read books and tried to improve himself because he thought he was the issue. He has a degree in psych too, which blows my mind that he missed it. My own mother was so brilliant in being an actress that I had close highschool friends who wouldn't have believed her behavior unless they had eventually witnessed it themselves. And it took years for that to happen. So it is possible that they could fool a therapist for a bit anyway. Eventually they tire of keeping up the game and will let it rip.

 

I think he felt like to tell her he wanted a divorce it would cause her to rage and in the meantime she might run off with the kids or hurt them before he could get the court to make her undergo an evaluation.

 

So, basically when you lump all cheaters into a category you personally have no idea what they are going through- deep down and in private.

 

It does fly in the face of my religious convictions to tell him that I could understand. Yet again, he knows what I've suffered. But as you know when you have a friend in pain, you'd like their suffering to end. It may be a couple of years before he's ready for a relationship and he has had so little happiness in his last few years- who am I to tell him that because his wife had a mental illness that he's not allowed a bit of pleasure and enjoyment for himself??

 

There are many different kinds of adultery. In my opinion. People can make cheat on their spouses with addictions as well as pornography or hobbies and such. Things you take away time with instead of working on your marriage. I'm not saying that having outside interests isn't healthy. But when she has repeatedly refused him sexually for their entire marriage as well as being abusive- to me that's adultery in a way too. Because we're told not to deprive our spouses from one another sexually. I'm rambling but does that begin to make sense??

[Mz. Pixie]

Yes

 

Thank you for being honest. So really, all that is between you and I is that your wifes friend at that moment didn't offer herself to you???

 

 

Yeah but I'm not Christ so forgivig would be a little harder for me. He also said the one legit reason for divorce was adultery

 

Well, I'm not Christ either so putting up with continual suffering is not my way of living life. Adultery is a great reason for divorce, I agree.

 

Since he forgives all sin what does it matter to Him? Might as well go for the big sins...

 

It does matter to Him, but as Jesus died for those sins, He wipes the slate clean for us with His blood. But only if we accept Him.

 

I never said I went for the big sin because I could be forgiven for it. That's completely taking what I said out of context. It has nothing to do with being allowed to sin because I'm forgiven already- I'm sure that there is a punishment in there who use the gospel as a way to continually do things in sin just because they can be forgiven. My situation is completely different than that type of situation.

 

I've gone to church since I was in my teens and I accepted Christ at 8 years of age. I would have never survived my childhood had I not. What I'm telling you is that I refuse to believe that I'm not forgiven for my mistakes no matter how much the world would like to condemn me. The one thing that I did does not cancel out my eternal salvation. That is my personal belief, not one that you have to share. We'll have to agree to disagree about that one.

[Guest]

there is a complete rational for cheating and having an affair. Its only an affair in our society because you can't marry more then one person or take more than one wife.

Think about it-- in societies where is is exceptable to take more then one wife -- you don't hear of infidelity. And I'm not just talking about muslims- another popular misconception in America that just muslims believe in polygamy. Most African countries and a good 12 far east asian countries still practice polygamy.

 

I think its unreasonable to believe its in staying with one person for the rest of your life. I think its unreasonable to believe family can only mean those who you have a piece of paper with...

 

I know people in America like to think they don't practice polygamy but they do with all the babies daddies and babies momma running around.

I know several blended families that are perfectly fine--

i'm not saying its for everyone but sometimes just because a majority of people think its wrong --just doesn't make it so.

Back in the day people thought interracial relationships were wrong, wasn't wrong just their screwed up perception. Just like infedelity-- just your perception.

 

And not all kids feel slighted-- my father had three extra-marital affairs and my half siblings and I get along great. Over time and with lots patience you work through things like a family and get on with it. They are my brothers and my sister-no big deal. There wasn't a big deal made about it when we were introduced by my father. When I was little I thought why do they live in a different place and that was all. It wasn't until i was older and i realized oh wait those two are younger then me but my mom was married to him-- so I asked what happened. My mom said your dad got around.

And til this very day -- when other people meet my half siblings they look confused and I laugh and say exactly what my mom says, My dad got around. And it wasn't on my mom, it was him. She was the only one he ever married and stayed with. But she had her own stepping out periods of time as well... so no one was slighted. We kids didn't grow up thinking daddy doesn't love me, or mommy doesn't love me. And we still always have each other no matter what.

 

Really there is no one size fits all to life...

 

I really appreciated your comments. I have been in a realtionship for 10 years. My guy and I both have families from previous marriages but we never have married. We were monogamus up until 5 months ago when he started having an affair with an old acquaintance. He says it is nothing and I am his soul mate and lifes partner, and not to worry about it at all...it is something he said he just needs to get out of his system.

 

He just lost 3 of his family members , has diabetes and sleep apnea and he is really coming to grips with his own mortality. I understand this but it is hurtful for me to allow. He only sees her once a week, but still I am devastated. I logically know that what your father and mother went through is normal and good for them that they were level headed enough to see their extra affairs as just that extra...... I am working on accepting that also as I see this as just a passing thing and temporary.

 

My friends think I am justifing his actions to make it ok ...but I really see it for something else...a human need which is not something I can help him with now. I have struggled with my committment to stay and love him as we still do have our relationship as well -- I don't talk to my friends about it anymore as they just say i should pitch him out -- I am going with my gut and riding it out... I really appreciate your comments as it makes me feel that I am not totally wacky in trusting that an affair doesn't mean the end.

[shoedevil]

Some things you said made me spend time thinking and doing some homework...

So, basically when you lump all cheaters into a category you personally have no idea what they are going through - deep down and in private.

When did I personally do this? I acknowledge that there is a wide spectrum of behavior, with some consequences being insignifacant and others being very serious. I certainly don't agree with you that all "sins" are on the same level of seriousness.

But as you know when you have a friend in pain, you'd like their suffering to end. It may be a couple of years before he's ready for a relationship and he has had so little happiness in his last few years - who am I to tell him... that he's not allowed a bit of pleasure and enjoyment for himself??

I didn't suggest to my friend that he seek revenge on his ex-girlfriend, or go find somebody to sleep with in order to feel better (he wouldn't). All of his friends, myself included, told him they were there to support him through the difficult times ahead. We made sure he got counseling, as well. Just curious - if your friend's wife was in a coma or something, which would also deprive him of sex, do you think it would be o.k. for him to go out and "find his pleasure"?

 

I hate to get cliched, but since you've mentioned your religiosity doesn't the question come up: What would Jesus do? I'm not religious at all, but I've taken religious studies classes and read some books on the side. If your religious beliefs make you a better person, then I'm glad. I think it's a valuable social benefit. But would Jesus suggest that your friend go out and have casual sex? When you say he's entitled to "a bit of pleasure and enjoyment", don't forget that he'll need to find somebody else to get that pleasure from. Would Jesus approve of using someone merely for sexual pleasure? From what I can recall, didn't Jesus tell people to give away everything they own, leave their friends and family behind, and follow him by ministering to the poor? I wonder how many modern-day Christians can really claim they are following Jesus teachings completely? That's one of the reasons I don't subscribe to religions. People almost always have to compromise their beliefs if they want to live a comfortable, bourgeois lifestyle.

 

There are many different kinds of adultery. In my opinion. People can make cheat on their spouses with addictions as well as pornography or hobbies and such. Things you take away time with instead of working on your marriage. I'm not saying that having outside interests isn't healthy. But when she has repeatedly refused him sexually for their entire marriage as well as being abusive - to me that's adultery in a way too. Because we're told not to deprive our spouses from one another sexually. I'm rambling but does that begin to make sense??

Well, I don't agree that withholding sex is a form of adultery. You would really have to bend backwards and redefine the word for that to make sense. But I agree there are varying degrees of cheating. However, I think all types of cheating have one thing in common: a fundamental violation of the trust and love that the relationship is (supposedly) based upon.