People who minimize cheating and affairs

[Flyin in Clouds]

Maybe.. but men are incredibly easy to manipulate. Especially if he's feeling low, and sexually unsatisfied. You're like putty in a woman's hands.

Really? I thought women were easy to "manipulate" when they were feeling unloved. Just paying them a few compliments and well the rest "just happens" because ...

Men are pigs. hahaha I'm kidding about the pig part..

:laugh:

 

I don't know... Do you have any ideas? (not being sarcastic, i'm being serious)

There is this thing called the Coolidge effect - males getting excited by different females because they are different. One web page (http://www.beautyworlds.com/beautyfashioncoolidge.htm), linked the effect to fashion. Women change their style thus becoming a "new woman". Changing hair styles, hair color, cloths, etc. But that's hard to keep up for 20 or 30 years. At some point the relationship settles into just being "comfortable" like old shoes. You fit together and even though other women still turn me on I wouldn't want to give up my wife for anyone else. That's a big factor in my not cheating. The risk of losing my wife, my family, my home, ... if she found out would be so high that I don't want to risk it. Now I think the risk is high because that's how I think about her cheating on me, that I wouldn't tolerate it, wouldn't stay, would be hurt. I don't ever want to hurt her. But she may actually be far more forgiving than I would. She may not think about my having an affair the same as I would. But I sure don't want to risk losing her. And for what? To satisfy some silly adolescent sexual thill seeking try to find a "different" woman? And that's the thing about my wife's friend. She isn't better looking than my wife, she's just different. She certainly wouldn't be better to live with. She wouldn't be "easy" at all. So in a "free love" world, yeah I'd have sex with as many different woman as I could, but not if that meant losing my wife. If the deal is I have to give all the other women up to keep her, then I give up the other women. And that is precisely the deal. She is more valuable to me than all the other possible women combined. hmmm... rambeling.

I've talked to my bf before about this, cause it has weighed on my mind in the past. But he told me.. it's not what I don't have, or what color my hair is, or how big my boobs are... that for him, desire is created mostly from the brain... Words, actions, tailoring specific circumstances to play upon his fantasy's.

There is that too... I'd agree it is not just the difference in hair color, but being "out of character" in a sexual way... But say you dyed your hair purple, (presuming it isn't already purple), put on some fish net stockings, some long black gloves, a sexy short skirt and top, some heavy make up, put on a ball gag, hand cuffed yourself, had previously told your bf to be home at x o'clock sharp, and attached a little note to your cute little butt that said "Tonight I'll be your sex slave. Do anything you want with me, I'm yours totally". If my wife did that I think I'd drop dead of a heart attack, it would be totally out of character. After the shock wore off I'd start to wonder if I could really satisfy this wanton woman? Well I don't know, but I'd be willing to die trying. There are lots of things women (and men) can do to be "different". I think "attitude", a mental thing, is a big turn on.

 

... I would be hurt if my bf lusted after my best friend. Fantasized about her while screwing me. I'm not so naive as to believe I'm the only woman in my bf's head... we've talked about it before... but as long as he isn't fixated on one person, someone we know. But what you are doing would hurt me greatly. I'm having a hard time pin pointing why it would be so hurtful... I mean, technically you aren't doing anything. But mentally you would be off limits in a way. Hidden. Secretive.

Yeah, I know it would bother my wife, so do you think I tell her? Or our friend? Even a little? No... I keep those fantasies buried pretty deep.

 

Hiding what you most desire, from the one you proclaim to love the most.

But the OW isn't what I desire most. My wife is. If I did desire OW most I would have had her or at least tried. But she's not what I want the most. So how does that square with my stand against cheating? If my desire for the OW exceeded my desire to retain my sense of personal honor... then I would have tried to get her. The decision

'to or not to" is weighed in a balance and there's lots of things on the "not to" side. There is really only one on the "to" side.

 

I think that would hurt me a great deal more than a single sexual act of lust.

Ah!!!! See, I think that is a general difference between men and women. Women want to be "the only one" a man really cares for, the sexual infidelity is less important than the emotional infidelity. While I think just the opposite is true for a man. A single seuxal act of lust in my wife's part would bother me the most.

Because I would feel that the most inner part of him was unknown.

Can we ever really know the inner most parts of other? Maybe, but I'd say it's pretty hard to be that totally open. Could I possibly risk losing my wife, or even hurting her by telling her my inner most fantasies? The last thing I would want to do is hurt her. Well, while a little D/s game might be fun for an evening or two... inflict real pain on her? No way. One night I told her "maybe I'll tie you up and have my way with you" and she said "why do you want to do kinky stuff like that". sigh... oh, I don't know honey - maybe because it's different than what we've done for the last 30 years? But I didn't tell her that, because she's not into it and so I just don't go there cause I don't want to hurt her. But it hurts me. But that's OK, I'd rather it hurt me than her. So I don't press her to do "kinky" stuff, as much as I might like it. sigh...

 

I feel close to my bf because I know what fuels his desire. Those fantasy's and desires that create the highest highs. But if those were stolen from me. With held... I would feel cheated.

What if his greatest fantasy was swinging? Swapping partners? You're not into it, but he was? Everything else in your relationship the two of you are totally in sync with, except for this one little kink of his. Then what do you do? Walk away because you aren't 100% sexually compatible? Because he wants one thing that you don't?

 

Left feeling like I wasn't good enough, and not even understanding why I felt that way....

not to reduce this to the old meat analogy but, ... steak is great, but sometimes I'd like just hambuger instead. It isn't a matter of "good enough", it is simply a matter of different. My fantasy sex with OW... in RL she's probalby lousy in bed, not nearly as good as my wife even if my wife isn't into "kinky" stuff.

 

P.s. I wanted to add. This (above) is my biggest fear. not the physical cheating, but what you described between you and the friend..

And to turn it around, if my wife had similar fantasies about some guy would I mind? No. In fact it would be a bit of a turn on. The problem I've got with her is she tells me she doesn't have any fantasies. WTF? So she either doesn't think about sex at all, so why would she be interested in me? Or she doesn't want to share her "secret" fantasies with me.

[Flyin in Clouds]

Not sure FIC - probably the most painful overall is the trust issues....

 

... You don't take chances with AIDS.

... In my mind, you have to have an emotional connection with the person before having sex. Just meeting someone you don't know to have sex just wouldn't work with me. Maybe if I didn't know what they looked like, it may have been easier to take the physical side of it, but I did see them. Since he met a few on the internet, they have profiles with pictures so then I can see in my mind him and them together and that is painful.

 

... But I felt just as sorry for this woman that he was leading on and she didn't know how he was embarassed to be seen with her. That's pretty low.

 

The more that has come to light about him, the more I don't like him and really after thinking it all over, I don't want to work out this marriage. I would rather start all over with someone who doesn't cheat, then live the rest of my life wondering day to day if he's cheaing, lying, seeing someone behind my back. Life's too short to worry about that.

Sorry it's not working out... but I cetainly can understand your POV...

 

And a cousin did die of AIDS. I can tell you it's the most horrible way to die imaginable. And what your guy did was pretty "shallow".

 

But the comment about emotional connection. I think that is generally true for most women. They need the emotional connection first, then sex after. For men that isn't true. Men can have sex with no emotional connection at all.

[Mz. Pixie]

When did I personally do this? I acknowledge that there is a wide spectrum of behavior, with some consequences being insignifacant and others being very serious. I certainly don't agree with you that all "sins" are on the same level of seriousness

 

I'm not saying specifically you- I'm saying people in general who lump them all in together. I should have made myself more clear.

 

I didn't suggest to my friend that he seek revenge on his ex-girlfriend, or go find somebody to sleep with in order to feel better (he wouldn't). All of his friends, myself included, told him they were there to support him through the difficult times ahead. We made sure he got counseling, as well. Just curious - if your friend's wife was in a coma or something, which would also deprive him of sex, do you think it would be o.k. for him to go out and "find his pleasure"?

 

First of all, the only relation to your friend I'm making in this situation is the connection that no one likes to see their friend hurt. As a matter of fact he's gone to at minimum of three marriage counselors, as well as counseling with Steve Harley- one of the paid counselors at marriage builders that's touted here. I believe that the original Harley is probably his father but I'm not sure. He was told that she would never be able to recover given the severity of her mental issues, and that he needed to gather evidence to divorce her and obtain custody of the children. Since that point he's been working towards that goal. Doesn't keep him from venting or being frustrated.

 

Also, I'm not quoting our conversation here word for word for your reading pleasure. My main point to you is it is not for me to judge him, because I haven't suffered what he has from my spouse. I most certainly never told him to "go and get his pleasure"- as I've stated and I will yet again state three times I told him I for one could not blame him if he did so. I'm not going to turn my back on him if he decides to do that himself. Since I'm not telling him that "cheating is the way to go" then I do not even have to get in to what I would tell him if his spouse was in a coma- which is a highly different thing altogether, because it has no bearing on this issue we're discussing.

 

Of course I agree that I doubt very few people follow Jesus' teachings completely and I unlike others have never suggested that I was perfect. Only forgiven. And that's the beauty of the plan of salvation- I do not comprehend or understand how Jesus is able to do so- but I do not have to because he just has. I have no doubt that Jesus would be unhappy if he went out and had pleasure elsewhere. Yet, as I said before, I'm not as perfect as Jesus- and irregardless of whether or not he choses to do this I'm not going to turn my back on a friend who happens to need my friendship at this time in his life.

 

Yes, Jesus did say for the people to give their money to the poor and take their cross up and follow Him. What we're actually called to do is to love our neighbors and do unto those that have the least. And I luckily do not have to answer to you about my behavior on that issue either, no more than I do adultery.

 

Well, I don't agree that withholding sex is a form of adultery

 

Okay, well what would you call it?? Because in his case, he married this woman and was to have sex ONLY with her, not anyone else. But yet she withholds the thing that he needs the most from her??? But yet he's never allowed to be with any other partner??

 

I do not agree that sex is the only thing in a relationship. I also agree that a relationship can survive without sex should a partner be UNABLE to have sex for a physical reason. But to just refuse to have sex is downright cruel and unusual punishment. And to not to try to mend the situation by going to counseling etc and to just say to your partner "It's too damn bad what you want" is absolutely ridiculous.

 

What would you advise for him to do?? Since you apparently have all the answers?? I assume that you must have the perfect marriage since you're here talking about fidelity and how it should be handled.

 

Please give me your insight into everything that it takes to build a loving, faithful lasting marriage based on your own personal experience?????

[unsafe]

my guy and I have been together for 6 months. So far no cheating. But a couple years before I came in to the picture his brother invited him into a three some with his current girlfriend. After that she threw herself at him a couple more times and he took it. He was single, but she was with his brother. I guess the brother is ok with it? Because they are now getting married.

 

I started dating my guy and she flipped out. Saying he was her other boyfriend and that she was jealous that he wasn't giving her what she wanted. His attention and friendship. I got freaked out and responded to her in the fact that I was bothered by her statements and it made me feel like I couldn't trust my guy if this girls is going crazy. His brothers fiance of all people. Well we all lived together but she kicked me out. Her jealousy! He said he was going to move out at the first of the year. So we are still waiting to see if this happens. But these are all the friends he has. His brother and his fiance. So he doesn't want to just write them off.

 

Even though I wasn't involved can you trust someone after something like this. She isn't ashamed of it. She told me right away about it. He on the other hand doesn't like to talk about it and said he would never tell anyone that. He has pushed her away all on his own since she freaked out. But she still lives there and works with her. They work for the same business.

 

Its really hard on me. He says I can trust him and he would never ever touch her again. That it was way wrong and it would never happen. No matter what I said what if she came in half naked and threw herself at you. He said no way. I want to believe him I really do. I know he loves me. But She is crazy.

 

She thinks her act of being with her fiances brother was right at the time she told me. She said she doesn't regret it. Yes she is marrying his brother? I dont' get it.

 

And on top of it after kicking me out she denies it and says I just left, and that I need to appologize to her. This is a person who can't own up to their own wrong doings!

[Flyin in Clouds]

Thank you for being honest. So really, all that is between you and I is that your wifes friend at that moment didn't offer herself to you???

No.

 

... The one thing that I did does not cancel out my eternal salvation. That is my personal belief, not one that you have to share. We'll have to agree to disagree about that one.

I have no doubt of your salvation. That wasn't the point. That is what happens after death. But what happens in this world ... as far as human beings forgiving... well that's a different matter. Sure we should be like God, but fact is we can't be. We are prone to sin, He isn't. He can forgive the ubforgivable. Some of us lesser beings can't. And frankly I gave a bit of a problem with a God that can forgive an S.O.B. that shot the innocent Amish girls. I'm not sure I'd want to share heaven with that guy.

[Flyin in Clouds]

...

Well, I don't agree that withholding sex is a form of adultery. You would really have to bend backwards and redefine the word for that to make sense. But I agree there are varying degrees of cheating. However, I think all types of cheating have one thing in common: a fundamental violation of the trust and love that the relationship is (supposedly) based upon.

 

Adultery = sin. Sin = something you shouldn't do.

 

From "The Message" on Biblegateway.com

 

1 Corinthians 7

 

To Be Married, to Be Single . . .

 

1 Now, getting down to the questions you asked in your letter to me. First, Is it a good thing to have sexual relations? 2-6Certainly—but only within a certain context. It's good for a man to have a wife, and for a woman to have a husband. Sexual drives are strong, but marriage is strong enough to contain them and provide for a balanced and fulfilling sexual life in a world of sexual disorder. The marriage bed must be a place of mutuality—the husband seeking to satisfy his wife, the wife seeking to satisfy her husband. Marriage is not a place to "stand up for your rights." Marriage is a decision to serve the other, whether in bed or out. Abstaining from sex is permissible for a period of time if you both agree to it, and if it's for the purposes of prayer and fasting—but only for such times. Then come back together again. Satan has an ingenious way of tempting us when we least expect it.

[Flyin in Clouds]

...But a couple years before I came in to the picture his brother invited him into a three some with his current girlfriend. ... I guess the brother is ok with it? Because they are now getting married.

 

I started dating my guy and she flipped out. Saying he was her other boyfriend.... But these are all the friends he has. His brother and his fiance. So he doesn't want to just write them off.

 

Even though I wasn't involved can you trust someone after something like this. ... But she still lives there and works with her. They work for the same business.

 

... She is crazy.

 

She thinks her act of being with her fiances brother was right at the time she told me. She said she doesn't regret it. Yes she is marrying his brother? I dont' get it.

 

And on top of it after kicking me out she denies it and says I just left, and that I need to appologize to her. This is a person who can't own up to their own wrong doings!

Uh, do you really want these people as your SIL and BIL? Forget it. Family like that is going to really mess up your relationship cause she is crazy.

[shoedevil]

Yet, as I said before, I'm not as perfect as Jesus- and irregardless of whether or not he choses to do this I'm not going to turn my back on a friend who happens to need my friendship at this time in his life.

You don't have to turn your back on him, no matter what he chooses to do. However, if a friend of mine did something I thought was very wrong, and I said nothing and stayed friends as if nothing had ever happened, that would be de facto approval of what he did. In my opinion, that is.

And I luckily do not have to answer to you about my behavior on that issue either, no more than I do adultery.

No, you don't have to explain anything. You seem to have reconciled your religious beliefs with your actions, that's fine. So why bring up your personal beliefs at all? Or for that matter the fact that you cheated? What's the point in bringing these things up if you have no intention of explaining them further? Ask me a question about my beliefs and I'll be glad to answer...

Okay, well what would you call it?? Because in his case, he married this woman and was to have sex ONLY with her, not anyone else. But yet she withholds the thing that he needs the most from her??? But yet he's never allowed to be with any other partner??

I'd call it alienation of affection. And that is grounds for divorce. He can sleep with as many other women as he wants. I never said he couldn't. People do what they want to do, whether it's justified or not.

What would you advise for him to do?? Since you apparently have all the answers?? I assume that you must have the perfect marriage since you're here talking about fidelity and how it should be handled.

Well, I'm not married quite yet. And I never claimed to be perfect or have any answers that you or your friend would find useful. But I don't feel the need to trot out every mistake I've made. I'm not looking for any sympathy, or looking to explain or justify any of the mistakes I've made in my life. Nobody has a monopoly on pain and suffering, but you make it sound like you, your husband, and your friend do. You seem to prefer mocking people who disagree with you instead of having a conversation. Which is fine. I don't think it's a very Christian thing to do, but I'm no expert on that either.

[SueBee3490]

But the comment about emotional connection. I think that is generally true for most women. They need the emotional connection first, then sex after. For men that isn't true. Men can have sex with no emotional connection at all.

 

Then explain if he truly understands a man can have sex without connection, why when I said to him that I didn't know I could have had meaningless sex with a good-looking guy that asked me out, that he said he would have been hurt if I'd went? In his male mind he should be able to figure out that this guy that asked me out would have been told by me that I was involved with someone but that we could go and have meaningless sex and my bf should have been ok with that. I wouldn't be getting attached to this other guy, falling in love with this other guy, etc. - it would just be a night of fun.

 

Now explain why he said he didn't want me going out on one night stands with other men if he understood the male psyche?

[Mz. Pixie]

No, you don't have to explain anything. You seem to have reconciled your religious beliefs with your actions, that's fine. So why bring up your personal beliefs at all? Or for that matter the fact that you cheated? What's the point in bringing these things up if you have no intention of explaining them further? Ask me a question about my beliefs and I'll be glad to answer...

 

I come here to help other people who are in the same situation that I have been in, and I've gotten tons of PM's and emails from people that tell me that I've helped them. Many posters here actually respect my opinions. You certainly do not have to, but just because you do not feel I have anything of value to add certainly doesn't make it so.

 

What do you come here for?? Advice or to give it?

 

I've shared plenty about my personal story. You can do a search at any time and read numerous posts of mine. I bring up the fact that I cheated to help other people. I bring up my religious beliefs because that is what I believe. What specifically would you like to ask me- and genuinely care to know?? I'm not going to continue to argue with you in this thread so if you have a particular bone to pick, please feel free to send me a PM.

 

As far as reconciling my actions with my religious beliefs?? I most certainly have not done that. I do know that God considers my actions wrong and that I will be held to give an account for them. Yet, I was a believer before I was involved in adultery- it wasn't a jailhouse conversion so to speak and when I read my Bible it tells me I'm forgiven. I've done the things required to be forgiven. Apologized and asked forgiveness from the offended parties and asked specifically my Lord for forgiveness. He truly knows in my heart how sorry I really am.

 

But I don't feel the need to trot out every mistake I've made. I'm not looking for any sympathy, or looking to explain or justify any of the mistakes I've made in my life. Nobody has a monopoly on pain and suffering, but you make it sound like you, your husband, and your friend do. You seem to prefer mocking people who disagree with you instead of having a conversation. Which is fine. I don't think it's a very Christian thing to do, but I'm no expert on that either.

 

Trot out every single mistake that I've made?? Hmmmm, I don't see that I'm doing that. I see it that I've disclosed my mistake to people on this forum who are suffering through something similar or are searching for help on a particular issue. That is what this forum is all about. For the record, I've also shared my story on other issues- such as sexual abuse- child abuse- and a variety of other issues.

 

I have a unique view of these subjects- having experienced them myself.

 

I certainly am the one who said that no one has a monopoly on pain and suffering- and I do not believe I'm sitting here saying that my pain is any more than anyone elses. If so, please point out the specific instance that you are referring to. I also have never said anything about my husbands pain. As a matter of fact he's not in any pain- because I have an awesome marriage. I've referenced him in many of my posts- but not about his pain. Perhaps you're talking about my ex husband?? As far as my friend goes, he's experienced something that many people on this board have not- and I was just passing along his experience to contribute to this thread. What his pain is is unique to his personal experience- just like yours would be should have have been in that situation. Just like mine is unique to my personal experience.

 

If you thought I was mocking you just because I disagreed with you that would be wrong. I said what I said because I was speaking on a topic to which I'm intimately aware of having experienced it myself. That is why I feel strongly about it. I was wondering where exactly you came to have your views and what you wanted to post about as your experience in that area. To what were you using to back up your statements from personal experience??

 

And to be fair, you started this pissing contest with me not the other way around. Somehow you're allowing the experience that your friend had and that you were a witness to frame your whole opinion of how the world really is. Which is your right to do so. You may be personally not interested in what I have to say, and that's fine. There is a little ignore box that you can use so that my posts never show up to you ever again, please avail yourself of that option if what I say is so offensive to you.

[Mz. Pixie]

Adultery = sin. Sin = something you shouldn't do.

 

From "The Message" on Biblegateway.com

 

1 Corinthians 7

 

To Be Married, to Be Single . . .

 

1 Now, getting down to the questions you asked in your letter to me. First, Is it a good thing to have sexual relations? 2-6Certainly—but only within a certain context. It's good for a man to have a wife, and for a woman to have a husband. Sexual drives are strong, but marriage is strong enough to contain them and provide for a balanced and fulfilling sexual life in a world of sexual disorder. The marriage bed must be a place of mutuality—the husband seeking to satisfy his wife, the wife seeking to satisfy her husband. Marriage is not a place to "stand up for your rights." Marriage is a decision to serve the other, whether in bed or out. Abstaining from sex is permissible for a period of time if you both agree to it, and if it's for the purposes of prayer and fasting—but only for such times. Then come back together again. Satan has an ingenious way of tempting us when we least expect it.

 

Hurrah.............................

[shoedevil]

Many posters here actually respect my opinions. You certainly do not have to, but just because you do not feel I have anything of value to add certainly doesn't make it so.

I respect all of your opinions, I just don't agree with all of them. Everybody has something of value to add to the discussion, provided it's on-topic. But putting words in other peoples' mouths accomplishes nothing, expect maybe to make you feel better in some way. I'd pat you on the back, but you're already doing that...

What do you come here for?? Advice or to give it?

This is a public forum, and I can come here for any reason I choose. But to answer your question, a little of both. Mostly I just lurk, and I've noticed some really good advice, but also a lot of bad advice, as well. That's what encourages me to speak up sometimes, which is my right. I don't question why people are here, or mock those who have a different opinion. The topic of this thread is people who minimize the effects of cheating. I can still have an opinion even though I haven't cheated or been cheated on. But I guess since I'm not in your club, I don't have a unique perspective, huh?

Trot out every single mistake that I've made?? Hmmmm, I don't see that I'm doing that.

No, I admit you haven't done that. I was intentionally exaggerating, not speaking literally. But since your last rant suggested I thought I was perfect, never made any mistakes, etc. (which I never claimed), I thought it was appropriate.

I certainly am the one who said that no one has a monopoly on pain and suffering - and I do not believe I'm sitting here saying that my pain is any more than anyone elses. If so, please point out the specific instance that you are referring to.

Well, you talked about all the abuse you've had to put up with, and of course your friend's issues with his mentally ill wife. But when you said the following:

My husband's wife left him for another man. In fact, she was pregnant by the OM before their divorce was final. Yet, did he want to try to kill himself?? No. Did he blame all of their relationship problems on her?? No. He went to counseling alone to learn about what he'd done wrong and what he could do to make himself a better person later on in his relationships.

... it sounded like you were totally ignoring the effects cheating can have on a sensitive people.Not everybody is as strong and upstanding as your husband. I would never trivialize someone else's pain, nor suggest that he or she somehow brought it on. I think that's when the pissing contest began. Can you see how a reasonable person could come to that conclusion?

Somehow you're allowing the experience that your friend had and that you were a witness to frame your whole opinion of how the world really is. Which is your right to do so.

I've allowed my observations of the effects of cheating to frame my whole opinion of cheating. Isn't that what an informed opinion is? I also have a friend whose girlfriend dumped him and started sleeping with his roommate on the same day. Technically cheating, hard to say. He kind of suspects something was going on before she dumped him, and I agree. Again, this thread was started in order to discuss the damage people do by cheating and not taking responsibility, and I've unfortunately had a front row seat for some prime examples of that. I feel pain when those closest to me are in pain. I don't lose any sleep worrying about the people who caused that pain. Are those perspectives unique in your view?

[Mz. Pixie]

I respect all of your opinions, I just don't agree with all of them. Everybody has something of value to add to the discussion, provided it's on-topic. But putting words in other peoples' mouths accomplishes nothing, expect maybe to make you feel better in some way. I'd pat you on the back, but you're already doing that...

 

I'm not going to feel ashamed because I think I good advice and other people do as well. It's nothing to be ashamed of to say what your good qualities are. Perhaps you're not used to a woman who asserts her positive points and herself to the point that I do?? I'm not "bragging" on myself- I'm just stating what I've experienced. I'm not up here claiming that I'm "all that and a bag of chips".

 

I can still have an opinion even though I haven't cheated or been cheated on. But I guess since I'm not in your club, I don't have a unique perspective, huh?

 

Everyone has an opinion and I wasn't saying yours was less valuable. I said I had a unique perspective having experienced it.

 

 

Well, you talked about all the abuse you've had to put up with, and of course your friend's issues with his mentally ill wife

 

I posted about my husbands experience with his first wife because it illustrated my point. I have a hard time thinking of ever taking my own life for anything- and do not understand people who think along those lines. Suicide IMO is the most selfish, ridiculous act. All of my stories are true and not embellished. Is it wrong to share that I've endured a bit of suffering in my life?? And that I survived?? That he did??

 

... it sounded like you were totally ignoring the effects cheating can have on a sensitive people.Not everybody is as strong and upstanding as your husband. I would never trivialize someone else's pain, nor suggest that he or she somehow brought it on. I think that's when the pissing contest began. Can you see how a reasonable person could come to that conclusion?

Sure, I can see how you came to form that conclusion but what I'm pointing out is not everything is always black and white.

 

No, I'm not ignoring it. And my husband is a sensitive person. But yet he still never thought of taking his own life when this happened, and he still learned through counseling that he had contributed to some of their problems, which ended up leading to the affair. My frame of reference is not a dating relationship, but marriage- which is indeed highly different IMO, unless you are living together.

 

I've allowed my observations of the effects of cheating to frame my whole opinion of cheating. Isn't that what an informed opinion is?

 

Sure, but there are always two sides to every story. I'm not saying they should be minimized at all. But I'm saying that in most situations there are situations that are created in a relationship that make it not positive that lead to infidelity. Doesn't make it right that the person cheated and at the time of disclosure it's certainly not good to say that they had a part in it. That's what comes out with a good marriage counselor. Visit marriage builders if you think my opinion is off base. There is a very good section about the three states of marriage.

 

That doesn't mean that the person "asked for it" or that they do not deserve to feel pain because of it. It doesn't even mean that the cheater shouldn't express remorse and make ammends. It means that they at some point come to terms with the fact that perhaps maybe they didn't do everything that they could have to make the relationship all it could be.

 

I do think that there are people who cheat for no reason at all. Both men and women. This may be what happened to your friend. People who do it continually are in a completely different category that the person who does it once and is determined not to do it again, wouldn't you say?? It's also different in a marriage- because it's adultery. It's cheating in a dating relationship, yes, but marriage makes it much more difficult- especially when you're dealing with finances and children and inlaws and situations which make it much harder to walk away whether you're the cheater or the betrayed.

 

My message is don't make the mistake that I made when I post to people on the forum. My message to men is don't ignore your wifes emotional needs. My message to women is don't ignore your husbands sexual needs and how important they are to him. Making your marriage the best it can be to safeguard against these kinds of things. Not that you can always make it not happen because there are people who are going to cheat anyway.

 

I certainly hope that you never experience anything along the lines of what I experienced, or what Walk experienced or what my friend has experienced. Some people do not, I certainly wouldn't wish it on anyone. I have been the person before though that condemned cheating to the point of being preachy about it and then ended up eating my words. So it's simple how you can think you're above it, as I truly did, and then end up not being as righteous as you thought you were. Sure, many people are above it, and I'm glad for them that they are. But I'm trying to use my mistake for something good- and if I help anyone on these forums on in real life when I share my story selectively, then I've done that.

[shoedevil]

Perhaps you're not used to a woman who asserts her positive points and herself to the point that I do??

Yes, I am. My fiancee is somewhat headstrong. She keeps me on the run most of the time.

Suicide IMO is the most selfish, ridiculous act. All of my stories are true and not embellished. Is it wrong to share that I've endured a bit of suffering in my life?? And that I survived?? That he did??

Of course not. Being religious, you probably assume suicide is a mortal sin. Reasonable people can argue over the justification for suicide (i.e. sick people dying in pain choosing to end their own lives, etc.). I don't think it's always selfish, for example when the person is totally alone, depressed, with nothing to live for. My friend did not fall into that category, however.

That's what comes out with a good marriage counselor. Visit marriage builders if you think my opinion is off base. There is a very good section about the three states of marriage.

I'm not knocking marriage counseling. I plan to go through it with my fiancee before we get married.

People who do it continually are in a completely different category that the person who does it once and is determined not to do it again, wouldn't you say??

Yes, I think I already pointed that out. Reasons and circumstances will differ. I've only encountered cheaters who seemed not to have much remorse at all, or at least didn't show any.

I certainly hope that you never experience anything along the lines of what I experienced, or what Walk experienced or what my friend has experienced. Some people do not, I certainly wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I was a very cautious fellow when I was single. When I learned that the woman I was out on a date with had a boyfriend, I stopped dating her. It's too bad that people often date around while they're in a relationship, looking for "the next best thing" to come along. Unfortunately, I feel cheating is more socially accepted these days than it was in the past (for both men and women). I feel sorry for the singles trying to find stable relationship partners. The person you end up in a relationship with may have cheated in the past, and never mentioned it, or lied about it. And that puts you at risk of being cheated on. It was very hard for me to find someone I could truly trust.

[Rooster_DAR]

Yes, I am. My fiancee is somewhat headstrong. She keeps me on the run most of the time.

 

Of course not. Being religious, you probably assume suicide is a mortal sin. Reasonable people can argue over the justification for suicide (i.e. sick people dying in pain choosing to end their own lives, etc.). I don't think it's always selfish, for example when the person is totally alone, depressed, with nothing to live for. My friend did not fall into that category, however.

 

I'm not knocking marriage counseling. I plan to go through it with my fiancee before we get married.

 

Yes, I think I already pointed that out. Reasons and circumstances will differ. I've only encountered cheaters who seemed not to have much remorse at all, or at least didn't show any.

 

I was a very cautious fellow when I was single. When I learned that the woman I was out on a date with had a boyfriend, I stopped dating her. It's too bad that people often date around while they're in a relationship, looking for "the next best thing" to come along. Unfortunately, I feel cheating is more socially accepted these days than it was in the past (for both men and women). I feel sorry for the singles trying to find stable relationship partners. The person you end up in a relationship with may have cheated in the past, and never mentioned it, or lied about it. And that puts you at risk of being cheated on. It was very hard for me to find someone I could truly trust.

 

Shoedevil, it sounds like you have a very good solid foundation of being a stable and mature person (relationship wise). I agree with many things you are saying, and I do agree with some of the other posters points as well. I too find it amazing people shop around for a better car, and it seems like so many people do that now days. If your shopping, that should be communicated up front instead of someone who commits to a relationship and decides that the grass is greener somewhere else.

 

Again, like shoedevil said this thread is all about people who keep on rationalilzing or justifying their behaviour with ideological rhetoric just to keep themselved from being the bad guy. Cheating is a selfish act, and it will always feel that way to most people because it indicates that the person is not trustworthy.

 

As we speak right now, my EX wants me back and claims that I'm her true love, yet the guy she is having an affair with has his vehicle parked in our garagage, and she claims they are in a serious relationship (but she wants to break up with him so we can get back together). This is just **cking nuts, I don't see why people feel like they have to stay with somebody while seeking out someone better. To me, this is a sign of some serious self issues.

 

Regards,

[SueBee3490]

[quote=Rooster_DAR;974210 I too find it amazing people shop around for a better car, and it seems like so many people do that now days. If your shopping, that should be communicated up front instead of someone who commits to a relationship and decides that the grass is greener somewhere else.

 

This is just **cking nuts, I don't see why people feel like they have to stay with somebody while seeking out someone better. To me, this is a sign of some serious self issues.

 

This is what happened to me and I'm tired of people saying (and some posters on here seem to also indicate) that we were "just dating" and we "weren't married" as though that somehow makes the pain less. Well when you're in a committed relationship for 2 1/2 yrs then make that jump and get married just to find out the other person was cheating on you the whole time, that's almost more pain than if we'd gotten married, had some marital problems, and one of us began cheating. We were dating so we should have been in that euphoria state of happiness - we weren't in the 20-yr marriage that had gone stale so his cheating makes even less sense to me. What hurts alot is that we got along great and he actually went through with the marriage without telling me what he had been doing. I feel if he really loved me, he would have come clean before marrying me no matter what the outcome would have been - whether I would have stayed with him or we would have split.

 

He should have communicated up front with me that he didn't want anything serious and wanted to date others. The ball would have been in my court and I could then have some say-so in my future and if I wanted to have a relationship like that. But like many cheaters, he's selfish, and knew that by telling me he was dating around then I would be free to date other men. He didn't want that - just wanted to keep me all to himself (I may actually have found a decent guy and not a cheater if I had been free to date others!

 

You know and I don't think he was seeking someone better than me, I think he was just wanting to screw around and didn't figure he'd ever get caught. The longer I know my H, I see that he does have serious mental issues.

[Rooster_DAR]

This is what happened to me and I'm tired of people saying (and some posters on here seem to also indicate) that we were "just dating" and we "weren't married" as though that somehow makes the pain less. Well when you're in a committed relationship for 2 1/2 yrs then make that jump and get married just to find out the other person was cheating on you the whole time, that's almost more pain than if we'd gotten married, had some marital problems, and one of us began cheating. We were dating so we should have been in that euphoria state of happiness - we weren't in the 20-yr marriage that had gone stale so his cheating makes even less sense to me. What hurts alot is that we got along great and he actually went through with the marriage without telling me what he had been doing. I feel if he really loved me, he would have come clean before marrying me no matter what the outcome would have been - whether I would have stayed with him or we would have split.

 

He should have communicated up front with me that he didn't want anything serious and wanted to date others. The ball would have been in my court and I could then have some say-so in my future and if I wanted to have a relationship like that. But like many cheaters, he's selfish, and knew that by telling me he was dating around then I would be free to date other men. He didn't want that - just wanted to keep me all to himself (I may actually have found a decent guy and not a cheater if I had been free to date others!

 

You know and I don't think he was seeking someone better than me, I think he was just wanting to screw around and didn't figure he'd ever get caught. The longer I know my H, I see that he does have serious mental issues.

 

Yep, it's all about them and nothing about you. I feel for ya sister, you deserve much better.

 

Good luck!

[Guest]

this is the first intelligent thing I have heard. Unfortunately, they "why's" never really get answered and you just have to accept that people are human and make mistakes. Its what happens after the affair that is the true test of character.

[Mz. Pixie]

This is what happened to me and I'm tired of people saying (and some posters on here seem to also indicate) that we were "just dating" and we "weren't married" as though that somehow makes the pain less

 

I said cheating in a marriage is different than cheating in a dating relationship because of the dynamics. I wasn't saying that your pain was any more or any less. When you are dating, however, you can just say you know what? This person doesn't deserve me and you can move on. You usually don't own property together and all of the other entanglements that go along with marriage.

 

When you're married for a long period of time you go through alot of stuff together that you may not go through in a shorter relationship. Death of spouses, sickness, things going on with each others family- you may even have to nurse one of your husband's family members in your home until they die. It may be that you have financial troubles together that you go through. When you invest that much time in someone- and go through all of those things together- I believe that it makes it all together different situation than being dating and being able to just pick up and go. Not talk to that person.

 

I worked with a lady who had been married 26 years. They had two children but had lost 2 children. He was a pilot and crashed and almost burned to death. Was in the hospital like 8 months. She was there everyday nursing him back to health. She helped him start a family business that thrived and they had nice things. He had a midlife crisis and began to lose everything. She had to move out of her nice home she'd build and decorated and into an apartment. So there were alot of entanglements there and deep emotional issues. She thought her marriage was fine, not stale. Turns out he didn't feel that way. When you have gone through all of that stuff what could be so bad that you'd have to separate?? A piece of tail that he wanted to chase that was younger than him.

 

 

Well when you're in a committed relationship for 2 1/2 yrs then make that jump and get married just to find out the other person was cheating on you the whole time, that's almost more pain than if we'd gotten married, had some marital problems, and one of us began cheating. We were dating so we should have been in that euphoria state of happiness - we weren't in the 20-yr marriage that had gone stale so his cheating makes even less sense to me

 

I'm sorry you've been through what you've been through- I do not know your story nor have I read your posts. I'm sure what you've gone through is very tragic and that you're in pain. Yet, you're generalizing here. You can't possibly know what someone else's pain is, although yours probably feels unbearable. You feel like it would hurt less, but you can't know that for sure.

And believe it or not there are people who have been married 20 plus years who do not feel their marriage is stale. Some of them aren't. My inlaws have been married 40 years and still hold hands and he calls her "An angel"

 

His cheating doesn't make sense, you're right. But the first several years of marriage are often the most stressful, not the most romantic. You're learning to live with this person and be with them every day in your space. I've done it twice- and it's HARD.

 

Perhaps his maturity level may have something to do with his actions?? How old are you??

 

Were there red flags as to what his behavior might be before you guys married??

 

What hurts alot is that we got along great and he actually went through with the marriage without telling me what he had been doing. I feel if he really loved me, he would have come clean before marrying me no matter what the outcome would have been - whether I would have stayed with him or we would have split

You're right, he should have. Do you think he was embarrassed or ashamed and afraid he might lose you?

 

You know and I don't think he was seeking someone better than me, I think he was just wanting to screw around and didn't figure he'd ever get caught. The longer I know my H, I see that he does have serious mental issues.

 

Perhaps you're right and he was just wanting to screw around- some people are like that and they are called serial cheaters.

 

You need to understand that this isn't really about you. It's about him. When it comes down to it people sometimes cheat with people who cannot even possibly measure up to their partners. They are not more attractive- or smarter or whatever. Sometimes they are- but really not usually. So do not let it ruin your self esteem.

[Mz. Pixie]

Yes, I am. My fiancee is somewhat headstrong. She keeps me on the run most of the time.

 

She'll give you a run for your money I'm sure.

 

 

Well actually I'm conflicted about it. I do not believe it's a mortal sin, because God knows your heart at that time. I see what you mean about the elderly and the sick who are in pain and want to die. The selfishness of it I see is when people who have loved ones do it- and I've seen the pain that the people left behind experience. A lady that lived down the street from me years ago came in and found her 17 year old had hung himself over a girlfriend breaking up with him. She literally pulled her hair out in chunks along with her scalp. Things can always get better when you're in a situation like that. If you're depressed you can always look around and see that there are people in worse situations than you are.

 

I'm not knocking marriage counseling. I plan to go through it with my fiancee before we get married.

 

Wonderful. Do that. Please read His Needs/Her Needs how to affair proof your marriage by Willard Harley. Also read The Five Love Languages by Chapman. Even if you're not religious both books are good stuff. I guess my first clue that my exhusband wouldn't work on our marriage should have been when he wouldn't read the premarriage counseling stuff we had been given during our sessions?

 

I was a very cautious fellow when I was single. When I learned that the woman I was out on a date with had a boyfriend, I stopped dating her. It's too bad that people often date around while they're in a relationship, looking for "the next best thing" to come along. Unfortunately, I feel cheating is more socially accepted these days than it was in the past (for both men and women). I feel sorry for the singles trying to find stable relationship partners. The person you end up in a relationship with may have cheated in the past, and never mentioned it, or lied about it. And that puts you at risk of being cheated on. It was very hard for me to find someone I could truly trust.

 

I agree with this. Yet, I'm thankful my husband didn't feel that way. I surely wasn't waiting for "the next thing to come along" nor was I looking when I found him. I didn't leave my exh for my current one, nor was he my affair partner. It is socially more acceptable now, and that's not right. But that can go along with the arguments about how the world is going to Hell in a Handbasket and all of that.

 

I was separating and scared to death to date. I could have gotten taken seriously advantage of because I'd been married over ten years and had no clue about the dating scene. I got extremely lucky to have found my H. I wasn't in to clubs and such. I was also lucky that he being the betrayed spouse in his marriage, was able to really look at who I really am rather than the fact that I had an affair when I was in a really bad situation. He should be very distrustful of me but he has never doubted me for a single minute, even given my past. Because he knows my heart.

 

You're pretty level headed Shoe. I wish you well in your marriage.

[SueBee3490]

His cheating doesn't make sense, you're right. But the first several years of marriage are often the most stressful, not the most romantic. You're learning to live with this person and be with them every day in your space. I've done it twice- and it's HARD.

 

I've also went through it twice. This is really hard becuse I wanted to make sure this marriage would work out. I divorced my 1st husband (father of my 3 children) and I was hurt (though he didn't cheat on me) so I knew the next time around I wanted to be sure which is why I waited almost 6 years before even dating after my 1st divorce because I was devastated over that one. Just to get married again to find out this one isn't right either.

 

Perhaps his maturity level may have something to do with his actions?? How old are you??

 

Good god I'm in my 40's and he's 50 - I've been through the whole dating scene in my 20's, etc. I thought I had men figured out by now but obviously I don't.

 

Were there red flags as to what his behavior might be before you guys married??

 

You know actually Mz. Pixie there were and I should have noticed. When he went out on me 1 1/2 yrs into dating and i forgave him and took him back, instead I would tell anyone to "run like hell from someone cheating on you and don't look back." By me taking him back and forgiving him because I figured everyone makes mistakes, this is his one mistake and he seemed sorry. How wrong I was. He didn't give a crap about me at all. So this part of the mess I'm in I do blame myself for being a forgiving person and trusting him again. I should have ran.

 

You're right, he should have. Do you think he was embarrassed or ashamed and afraid he might lose you?

 

I know he doesn't want to lose me and figures I am the best one he had. Why he cheated, not sure. In some ways I think he is very immature for his age. Seems he didn't date until he met his 1st wife at 20 some years old and she was the only woman he'd been with until his divorce from her. He still tries to cling to me because even last night while laying in bed he is always trying to put just his leg over mine for comfort or just touching. I move away as I've made it plain to him there's no working this out I just don't have the money right yet to move on and he won't move out. I know I sound harsh and mean but I'm really not - he just made me this way. Sad I know.

[Mz. Pixie]

WOW- twice. It's hard- so much harder than I ever would have thought.

 

I thought he was very young by the way you described him. He sounds very immature.

 

It sounds like he has a high need for attention perhaps even a narcassist. A person that has a high need for attention cannot handle it when their s/o's attention is elsewhere. Like on the kids or whatever. He cannot handle not having your FULL attention so he'll seek it out wherever he can get it.

 

They will continually seek that out until they seek therapy- and they usually don't seek therapy.

 

I'm sorry but he does sound like a serial cheater.

[shoedevil]

Please read His Needs/Her Needs how to affair proof your marriage by Willard Harley. Also read The Five Love Languages by Chapman. Even if you're not religious both books are good stuff.

No doubt these books have some good advice and guidance. However, I don't subscribe to the theory that men primarily seek sexual satisfaction and women primarily seek emotional satisfaction. There is a wide spectrum of preferences out there. My fiancee and I are good examples of that. We are both very emotional, and view sex as an important benefit of being together, but definitely not the foundation of the relationship. The research I see coming out these days indicates that men and women aren't all that different in how they behave (i.e. reasons for cheating, emotional sensitivity, etc.).

It is socially more acceptable now, and that's not right. But that can go along with the arguments about how the world is going to Hell in a Handbasket and all of that.

Well, I don't think the world is going down the toilet. Society is much more tolerant than in the past, which is generally good. However, tolerance can be taken too far, I think, and the decline in some standards of behavior is evidence of that. Nevertheless, most all people still prefer being in a monogamous committed relationship, and want to have kids, etc. I don't believe most people (men and women) actually end up cheating, or having one night stands, etc. The divorce rate for first-time married couples today is only 35-40%. So I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same.

I could have gotten taken seriously advantage of because I'd been married over ten years and had no clue about the dating scene.

I think everyone goes through periods where he or she is depressed, lonely, and susceptible to being manipulated. My fiancee went through it after ending a bad relationship. I felt sad for her and upset about it when she told me. Why does it seem that when a single woman is depressed and lonely, there are plenty of guys around willing to take advantage? I went through my own bout of depression and heavy drinking, but no woman ever tried to pick me up. Maybe vulnerable women are considered attractive, and vulnerable men aren't?

[Mz. Pixie]

Maybe vulnerable women are considered attractive, and vulnerable men aren't?

 

I think it's because women are just a better target, especially if they are attractive.

[SueBee3490]

It sounds like he has a high need for attention perhaps even a narcassist. A person that has a high need for attention cannot handle it when their s/o's attention is elsewhere. Like on the kids or whatever. He cannot handle not having your FULL attention so he'll seek it out wherever he can get it.

 

You are right. When dating (and we were a long distance relationship) whenever I wasn't with him on weekends or whatever, I would go with my kids to ballgames at their high school. I figured this was good in that I get to spend time with my kids when I'm not with him. In a small town in the middle of soybean and cornfields in IL about the only thing to on Friday night is a football game/basketball game. When he came here alot of times we'd go to games. It's fun and cheap. He would get mad and say that I thought more of the games than him. Little did I know that why I'm with my kids at a game, he's hooking up with yet another woman. How disgusting is that?

 

He is also jealous of my 18 yr old daughter. We were at home one night and she came in with a "guy" friends of hers. Don't really know if she dating him or not but they were looking up something on the computer. My H got mad and said this guy isn't allowed in "his" house. Now my daughter and friend just looked up something on computer and left. I think he's mad that I have an attractive 18 yr old "normal" daughter who's interested in 20 something year old guys. His 18 yr old daughter has been cutting herself in the past. Went with a 30 something year old guy and then had to be tested for AIDS and pregnancy, fights and cusses at her mother, skips school, etc. Don't know if it's jealousy or what but he really doesn't like my daughter at all.