Phone Sex, Porn and the Internet in Relationships

[Guestxyz]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread but I will put in my two cents about the opening topic.

 

- IM and phone sex can potentially lead to more than a quick get-off.

- Porn, if not deviant, is at arms-length. Most guys don't fall for porn girls...

[Jersey Shortie]

Sure he's making a choice. He could alternatively choose to have actual sexual relations with any/every woman who would allow it. If he chooses not to... he's made a choice.

 

 

But he is using something else to act as a substitute for that. So it isn't like he is really giving up anything. I used this example before. It's like the South Beach Diet version of the real thing. How much of a choice is it really?

 

 

 

Are YOU cognizant of the differences in a man's needs?....

 

I know men's needs are different. But this isn't just about what a man's needs when you are in a relationship.

 

 

The best we can do is to TRY to imagine what being a man would feel like... but neither one of us will ever feel a man's feelings.

 

Maybe men should TRY and imagine what it feels like for his wife/gf to know your man is thinking about other women that he probably thinks is better then what he has got.

 

 

 

Maybe not... if they're required to do so on strictly female terms.

 

 

I can make compromises. It isn't that. But when it comes to other people, other women, why do I have to compromise on that?

 

 

 

We're talking about MEN. You can't expect a person who's body is marinating in testosterone NOT to think about sex, and you can't expect a brain that's fundementally wired differently to think about sex in terms that YOU might approve of from a female vantage-point. You and I have no way to measure the meaning of that. We might have an increase in drive just before ovulation or menses due to a rise in testosterone level... but it's minimal in comparison. Even then our brains will process the information in terms that WE understand.

 

I understand men think about sex more. And I try to keep that in mind. Okay but like men have alot of testosterone, well women have lots of estrogen right? And that makes us more sensitive and junk. So why can't men understand that because of estrogen, it makes these things hurtful to us and makes us feel less important, less pretty, less like feeling being vulnerable with them knowing that no matter how hard you try, just you isn't good enough for them.

 

 

 

In bypassing live sex with a variety of partners, a man has ALREADY met us halfway, IMHO. He is already proving his committment to a "solid and connected relationship.

 

But how much of a commitment is it if he is using other methods to help him get around this? How loyal is that?

 

 

 

I really don't think he can effectively understand your emotions regarding porn. He can process the information intellectually, but he can't really identify with your feelings. So, it's not that a guy doesn't want to understand, it's that he can't feel it like you feel it.

 

You are asking me to understand where is a guy coming from and then telling me he can't understand where I am coming from. How is that fair? How is that suppose to give him understanding he can't give me?

 

 

 

 

Sweeping generalization ahead, but.... men don't look at porn just to disrespect us or piss us off. And even when we tell them, "Honey, it really bothers me when you do that"... they don't see it as a BIG TICKET item, because it doesn't have real meaning to them. For an average man who doesn't have "a problem" with porn, these objections sound insecure, controlling, and arbitrary.

 

 

Is it any wonder why women are insecure about this though? All the women in porn are perfect. That is what men wish they had. Men are never satisfied with one woman. It is threat to know they are seeking out other women. These are all natural biological ways to feel just like you are telling me it is natural for guys to look at porn. Men don't get that because this isn't a threat to them. It isn't about what they lack that women wish they were. or women seeking out tons of other men.

 

 

 

 

Sorry kiddo.... I've seen it first hand. Come back and tell me all about it once you've tossed a cam-whore out of your personal business. We'll compare notes.

 

Then what do you think is equal to porn for men, for women?

[new_stella]

You know, it’s probably true that men cannot control their ‘thoughts’ in regards to other women.

In the similar way we cannot control our hurt by it.

 

I don’t think men are incapable of love; it’s just that their definition of love is a bit different. I know that wanting other women doesn’t make my man love me any less, but it does mean I am one of many women he would have sex with – and not necessarily the preferred choice.

 

If I knew this about men earlier, I would live my life differently. I would merry the richest guy around and build totally different relationship.

He would be able to have any woman he wants; it wouldn’t bother me at all. I would find other interests and spend my time enjoying myself, instead of focusing on the relationship. Sex would be only fun, and nothing more, for both of us.

[PussInHeels]

I don't judge what gets anyone off, but with phone sex and internet chatting I can't help but picture a mutant on the other end of the line. I have a pretty active imagination, and I know you're thinking, "Just imagine someone hot." But I can't. I always picture the worst. I mean, who do those phone sex places hire, really? I always get an image of a greasy guy doing a crossword while making sexual noises into his headset. But that's just me

[new_stella]

Then what do you think is equal to porn for men, for women?

Maybe really successful men?

Women are generally attracted to success, and for men success in their job is something that can be comparable to the attitude women have towards their looks.

 

Besides, if men and women are different (as we all agree), why do we need perfect analogy? Maybe for women porn equivalent would be some sort of ‘emotional porn’?

If men have instinct to have many sexual partners, maybe women have need to have many 'emotional' partners?

 

So what if it involves interaction of some kind?

We are different, remember?

As long as we still love our man, that should be ok.

 

We cannot control our 'emotional needs' any more than men can their physical nees, so, as long as we don't act on them and have a sexual affair with the real person, noone's hurt, right?

[PussInHeels]

I don't really see why men and women necessarily have to have different porn. I like regular porn, and he likes conversation and cuddling. Do we really have to be so different?

[new_stella]

I don't really see why men and women necessarily have to have different porn. I like regular porn, and he likes conversation and cuddling. Do we really have to be so different?

My entire life I thought that we are the same.

But apparently, we are not.

I'm still coming to terms with that.

[PussInHeels]

It's obvious that men and women have their differences... And yes, women are more empathetic and emotionally grounded in many scenarios. But the average idea of gender appears very stylized, and there isn't a lot of room for exceptions, which bothers me. I think this contributes to why some men feel that if they are empathetic or emotional, it makes them weak and less virile. I'm more inclined to believe many inconsistencies are socially and not biologically dictated.

[new_stella]

I'm more inclined to believe many inconsistencies are socially and not biologically dictated.

I tend to agree with that, in the context of this thread and in a general sense.

 

Also, I am having hard time believing that biologically men need multiple partners any more than women do.

[PussInHeels]

Also, I am having hard time believing that biologically men need multiple partners any more than women do.

 

Yeah...notice how the people who say that tend to be male...hmmmm

[new_stella]

I like regular porn, and he likes conversation and cuddling. Do we really have to be so different?

Which brings me to porn again…

 

I personally don’t mind porn as such, but it seems that porn is more about hot chicks than anything else. As I don’t find looking and sexy females a turn-on, I don’t particularly enjoy ‘regular’ porn.

 

What is it in it that you, as a woman, like?

[Ladyjane14]

But he is using something else to act as a substitute for that. So it isn't like he is really giving up anything. I used this example before. It's like the South Beach Diet version of the real thing. How much of a choice is it really?

 

Fantasy isn't reality though. The reality I just witnessed as one of my friend's dealt with a cheating husband doesn't even begin to compare. Imagine the ramifications of your man actually committing an unprotected sex act with another woman, exposing you to whatever contaminates that woman may have encountered previously, playing Russian Roulette with your very LIFE. Imagine your man, treating you like sh*t while he features himself to be "in love" with a woman that he lies to you about daily. Imagine your family dynamic broken, and your children crying because of it.

 

I know men's needs are different.

 

Intellectually you do... but you aren't accepting the mystery of it yet. It's something you will NEVER fully understand no matter how hard you try. You can only approximate it, same as men must do regarding women.

 

But this isn't just about what a man's needs when you are in a relationship.

 

You're right. But you can't choose your husband's actions, only your own.

 

Maybe men should TRY and imagine what it feels like for his wife/gf to know your man is thinking about other women that he probably thinks is better then what he has got.

 

You're putting words into his mouth here.

 

I can make compromises. It isn't that. But when it comes to other people, other women, why do I have to compromise on that?

 

When it comes to REAL other women, you shouldn't.

 

I understand men think about sex more. And I try to keep that in mind. Okay but like men have alot of testosterone, well women have lots of estrogen right? And that makes us more sensitive and junk. So why can't men understand that because of estrogen, it makes these things hurtful to us and makes us feel less important, less pretty, less like feeling being vulnerable with them knowing that no matter how hard you try, just you isn't good enough for them.....

 

....You are asking me to understand where is a guy coming from and then telling me he can't understand where I am coming from. How is that fair? How is that suppose to give him understanding he can't give me?

 

Again, I agree..... the relationship is about BOTH of you, true enough. But only YOU can choose your behavior within it. You can't control your partner's mindset... only your own. Your choice is either to accept or reject your partner for the person he is. But you can't change him. Only he can do that.

 

Within YOU, is the ability to choose understanding, even though you can't force that same effort from your spouse. Would it be nice if he ponied up that "understanding first"? Yeah, you bet it would. If he were here asking for opinions... I'd tell him the same as I'm telling you.... choose "understanding" and be the first to choose it. But he's not here and you are. You're the one wanting change. Change can happen... but not through force, and certainly not by building and harboring resentments.

 

I guarantee you, that a man who feels understood and appreciated in his relationship is more likely to reciprocate in kind than one who doesn't. Same would hold true for women, come to that.

 

Is it any wonder why women are insecure about this though? All the women in porn are perfect. That is what men wish they had. Men are never satisfied with one woman. It is threat to know they are seeking out other women. These are all natural biological ways to feel just like you are telling me it is natural for guys to look at porn. Men don't get that because this isn't a threat to them. It isn't about what they lack that women wish they were. or women seeking out tons of other men.

 

I'm not insecure about porn stars. I've got more to offer my husband than any porn star ever did. I'm a real person in his life, with lots of great qualities. There ain't nothin' Miss Porn Star's gonna do for him in the real world. And just because he looks... doesn't mean he's not satisfied with what he already has.

 

You're in your own head here a little bit, dear. "Men don't get that because this isn't a threat to them". (????)

Well, it's not a REAL threat to you either.

 

You know... it's the hardest thing sometimes to really TRUST another human being. Sometimes you have to climb out on the limb and just hope it's not going to break. And you have to have faith that IF it does, you'll be tough enough and strong enough to handle it.

 

What's wrong with TRUSTING that your man loves you?

What's wrong with believing him when he says you're beautiful in his eyes or that you are the only one? Do you think that looking at porn makes him a liar?

 

Look... I'm NO FAN of the porn industry. I find it repulsive and a huge drain on our society.

But when you get down to one human relationship at a time... I don't think it's necessarily something that should be a deal-breaker. If this really is the straw that breaks the camels back for you, chances are you're with the wrong man. You'll need to be VERY CAREFUL in choosing your next mate and making certain that you're on the same page regarding this issue.

 

You know, there ARE men out there who are likeminded. We've spoken in generalities to a great extent here. Not every man looks at porn.

 

 

 

Then what do you think is equal to porn for men, for women?

 

That's a great question. I'll have to think about that for awhile. But I like what NewStella said about 'emotional connections'.

[norajane]

Which brings me to porn again…

 

I personally don’t mind porn as such, but it seems that porn is more about hot chicks than anything else. As I don’t find looking and sexy females a turn-on, I don’t particularly enjoy ‘regular’ porn.

 

What is it in it that you, as a woman, like?

 

Ever consider that it's not just the chicks, especially since so many of them aren't particularly attractive, especially in the amateur porn which is often way more popular than the professional porn?

 

It's the SEX. People like to watch other people having SEX and performing SEXUAL ACTS. It's not that the guy is oh-so-turned-on by the blonde; he's turned on by seeing the blonde getting f*cked. It's not so much that he's fascinated by the huge, fake tits, but he's fascinated watching her with a dick sliding between her huge, fake tits. It's not so much that she has a perfect ass, but that there's someone penetrating it. It's not that she's got a pretty face; it's that her mouth is open and sucking a cock. It's the acts that are sexy, erotic to the male mind, not so much the women on their own.

 

Then what do you think is equal to porn for men, for women?

Erotica. Erotic writing, erotic stories. Romance novels that could easily be called erotica or porn, but they aren't because there aren't any pictures and instead of cocks and dicks, they talk of members and manhoods.

 

Chick flicks that show an awful lot of kissing and nuzzling and almost everything, but not quite all the f*cking.

[new_stella]

It's the SEX. People like to watch other people having SEX and performing SEXUAL ACTS.

Well, I agree with the sex part and even I can find that part arousing occasionally.

 

But I don’t believe (any more) that for men see it that way.

Of course, there is a sex element, but the huge part is how those girls look.

How else do you explain all those links to ‘hot babes’ and ‘big tits’ and all those other things without any real action - just naked female bodies (or body parts)?

 

Also, you don’t see really ugly girls in porn and they all have pretty good bodies (while there are some rather unattractive guys).

 

As for romance novels, I can’t talk for other women, but I absolutely hate them and don’t find them erotic at all. Can’t imagine anyone actually masturbating to a romance novel.

[norajane]

As for romance novels, I can’t talk for other women, but I absolutely hate them and don’t find them erotic at all. Can’t imagine anyone actually masturbating to a romance novel.

 

They don't masturbate to the novel. However, they fantasize while they are masturbating, after the novel gets the engines primed.

 

Erotica - porn stories - is more to the point, though.

 

As for the sites with just the pics, they actually aren't just the pics. They offer - for a fee - sex chat, video clips, movies, etc. They draw the men in with the pics of big tits or asses, because they cater to a particular fetish. It's just body parts, not a 'real' woman that the guys are viewing.

[Guest]

well women have lots of estrogen right? And that makes us more sensitive and junk.

 

Not really. Estrogen does affect serotonin levels in women. That's fixable.

 

them knowing that no matter how hard you try, just you isn't good enough for them.

 

IT IS THIS BELIEF YOU HAVE, BASED ON ZERO FACTS, WHICH IS YOUR PROBLEM It's not the porn. It's not men looking at porn. It's your utter conviction that they do it because they 'prefer' it to you. You are dead wrong about this.

 

Men are never satisfied with one woman.

 

Again, just because you believe it doesn't make it true.

[new_stella]

Maybe you’re right, Norajane.

At least it helps a bit to think that way.

(The fact that I personally would always prefer picture to a porn story should help me understand men better, shouldn't it?)

 

But porn may be only a part of the story for women with this problem.

 

The other part is our man’s general interest in other women. Porn, I think, perfectly fits into the picture we already have – that men always want other women (and those women almost always look better than us)

[Pink_Tulip]

Nora- are you talking about those silly books with Fabio on the front? You would consider those porn for women? I must say I have never read more than a few pages and found the cheese factor waaaay too high for my tastes. And I have never met anyone into them, so I assumed they weren't popular. I don't know that they'd qualify for porn for women, since they don't have a huge draw like pictures and videos do for me, know what I mean? But I get your point about reading them and fantasizing afterward. I just don't think the draw is as strong. I think in order to equate to porn, we'd need something that has that kind of draw for women, and I don't know that there is anything.

 

Stella- I was still wondering about your H. Did you tell him how you felt, and he still chose porn over you? Did I read that right?

 

And Shortie. Please, please, for the last time, please share with us where this concern is coming from. It would help us understand why you are so angry about it. And the bottom line is, as LJ put so nicely, you can't change a man. You can only change you. Find a man who you share common beliefs and values with, who will work as hard as you in the relationship, and you will be happy. If you keep dating men who look at porn and causing you all this angst, then the issue isn't porn, it is your choice in men. You seem to selectively ignore that I keep telling you, not all men look at porn. Why?

[norajane]

Nora- are you talking about those silly books with Fabio on the front? You would consider those porn for women? I must say I have never read more than a few pages and found the cheese factor waaaay too high for my tastes. And I have never met anyone into them, so I assumed they weren't popular. I don't know that they'd qualify for porn for women, since they don't have a huge draw like pictures and videos do for me, know what I mean? But I get your point about reading them and fantasizing afterward. I just don't think the draw is as strong. I think in order to equate to porn, we'd need something that has that kind of draw for women, and I don't know that there is anything.

 

I am talking about Fabio and the other bodice-rippers. They are exactly like porn for women, especially as they are highly graphic when it comes to sex and they're HUGELY popular. Here are some stats on the industry from 2002.

 

These statistics were compiled by RWA from Book Industry Study Group and American Bookseller Association reports, and from tallies in Ingram’s catalogue of all book releases.

• Romance generated $1.63 billion in sales in 2002.
  
• There were 2,169 romance titles released in 2002.
  
• Romance fiction comprises 18% of all books sold (not including children’s books).
  
• Romance fiction comprises 53.3% of all popular paperback fiction sold in North America.
  
• Romance fiction comprises 34.6% of all popular fiction sold. (Different from above, this figure includes not just paperbacks, but hardcovers and trade-sized paperbacks as well as well.)

To compare:

• Mystery/Detective/Suspense is 23.1% of popular fiction sales
  
• General Fiction is 24.1% of popular fiction sales
  
• Science Fiction/Fantasy is 6.5% of popular fiction sales
  
• Religious, occult, westerns, male adventure, general history, adult and movie tie-ins was 11.9.% of popular fiction sales

[new_stella]

Stella- I was still wondering about your H. Did you tell him how you felt, and he still chose porn over you? Did I read that right?

Well, I told him.

 

He went through a few differnt phases:

 

- But all men do it!

- It’s impossible that something like that seriously bothers you.

- I just look at the action – not the girls.

- I check out every single woman that crosses my path.

- You are the best-looking woman I’ve ever seen.

- Some women look better than you.

- Younger women always look better than older ones.

- I will stop looking if it hurts you that much

- This happened only once after I promissed (when I caught him doing it again)

- I can’t talk about it any more!

 

The thing is, after everything, I don’t want him to stop just because of me.

If this is so important to him, let it be. If that ‘need’ is so strong, he wouldn’t be able to resist anyway.

 

The worst case scenario would be for him to stop and than feel frustrated because of it.

 

Besides, knowing that he wants other women sexually changes everything.

Even if he stops using porn, that will still be the problem for me.

[norajane]

Besides, knowing that he wants other women sexually changes everything.

Even if he stops using porn, that will still be the problem for me.

 

But he can't have every woman, and he wouldn't necessarily want them for more than just a f*ck even if he could have them.

 

Whereas YOU are the one he wants for more than just a f*ck. Your relationship is meaningful, and intimate, and loving, and he chooses that rather than screwing around with whomever crosses his path. Doesn't that count for much in your mind? Why isn't that reassuring to you?

 

You spoke of equating women's emotional needs to men's sexual needs earlier. Don't you ever meet men with whom you feel an emotional interest or or just get along with really well and have fun talking and laughing with them? I do, all the time, especially at work where we've had a chance to get to know each other and work closely. Just because those guys exist, doesn't mean I feel any desire to dump my bf, or that I'm less satisfied with my bf, or that I compare them to my bf.

 

Don't you believe it's possible for people to notice and appreciate others - whether they be a sexually attractive woman or an emotionally compatible man - without being dissatisfied with what the one they love? Just because we commit to someone, doesn't mean that part of us that notices and is attracted to people just shuts off and dies.

 

I guess I just don't understand why you think it's a reflection on you and your appearance or your relationship...why does it make you feel SO bad about yourself?

[CynicalP]

I must say that this little thread has produce some great dialog! Trimmer your post/reply was absolutely brillant. I also enjoy Ladyjane's intellect vs instinct model. I have heard of other socio-anthropological theories similiar to that behavior model. Essentially boils down for survival and proliferation of the species it is in the best interest for males should spread their seed to as many females as possible. For females it is the opposite, their best strategy for ensuring successful offspring requires a monogamous relationship for protection, security and care especially during times when the female is the most vulnerable ie when she is pregant.

 

I think the differences between Male/Female are more than just societal gender roles, there are truely instinctual and biological differences as well. These behavior differences can be observe between the sexes with child starting at ages around 8 months without much prompting from parents. There are clear sex differences is most male/female species. It's our arrogant 3 lbs of gray matter that tries to rationalize and project overselves superior to that other animal species that also inhabit this planet. When you figure, DNA wise, there is only a 5% difference between human beings and chimpanzees in our genetic makeup; we are more similiar to animals then we would like to lead ourselves to believe.

 

What does this have to do with the porn discussion. Well who knows for certain what subconsious impluses/instincts play into our conscious decisions and every day behaviors. I may like porn for the simple fact is satisifies a implusive/instinctive need either that or I'm a very weak willed and easily mesmerized by bouncing breasts. ( Judging from Jersy's comments I will fall under the latter circumstances ) LOL!

[Pink_Tulip]

Nora- thanks for the info. But you say that these books are very graphic. Have you ever read one? Like I said, I read a few pages from one of the Fabio books once out of curiosity, and the most graphic it got was, 'she could feel his warm, hard, manhood throbbing on her thigh,' or some such nonsense. Is that condsidered graphic, or did I grab the wrong book?

 

Stella- I can understand how you feel. If I were in your shoes, I don't know that the actual act of my H looking at porn would bother me so much as the dismissal of my feelings. For him to say that he checks out every woman and that some look better than you is just mean. Yes it is probably true, its true for all of us. But to say something like that just undermines trust. How can you feel comfortable giving yourself to someone who thinks nothing of saying something so hurtful? Thats the part I am bothered by.

 

Cynical- If we are going to equate ourselves only to our animalistic/biological counterparts, then we must look at how biologically women act. You say (paraphrasing) porn is normal b/c men have a biological urge to spread their seed. You also say that women prefer monogamy b/c it ensures the survival and protection of their children. That is only partially true. Females prefer monogamy only so long as the male can provide. When a bigger, stronger, richer male comes along, the female jumps ship. So how do we equate this to the porn debate? Would you want a woman who is always fantasizing that you were bigger, stronger, richer, or was always looking for that next male to go to? Always fantasizing about would 'could be?'

[norajane]

Nora- thanks for the info. But you say that these books are very graphic. Have you ever read one? Like I said, I read a few pages from one of the Fabio books once out of curiosity, and the most graphic it got was, 'she could feel his warm, hard, manhood throbbing on her thigh,' or some such nonsense. Is that condsidered graphic, or did I grab the wrong book?

 

His throbbing manhood does penetrate her soft, moist sex eventually, though.

 

That may not seem graphic, but I do recall one set of novels I read where she ends up on a ship as pretty much the manly Captain's sex slave, so it's also the "story" around the sex that sets up the fantasy, and the fantasy is as much the turn on for women as the actual sex. Think, Gone with the Wind type stories, where you actually read about the sex between Rhett and Scarlett...

 

I don't know - I stopped reading them back in high school.

 

Stella- I can understand how you feel. If I were in your shoes, I don't know that the actual act of my H looking at porn would bother me so much as the dismissal of my feelings. For him to say that he checks out every woman and that some look better than you is just mean. Yes it is probably true, its true for all of us. But to say something like that just undermines trust. How can you feel comfortable giving yourself to someone who thinks nothing of saying something so hurtful? Thats the part I am bothered by.

Not trying to defend the guy in any way, especially since I wasn't there for the context of his statements, but it's possible he could have thrown that in her face because he was supremely irritated at being harassed about the porn. Again, not saying she harassed him, but that last statement she quoted - "I can't talk about it anymore!" - sounds like he felt harassed and was on his last nerve about it.

 

Consider another way to look at what he's saying - "I check out every woman that walks by, and some are better looking than you...BUT, you're the woman I choose to be with because you mean more to me than a random f*ck and you're the one I want to be with because YOU are not just a body to me, you are a whole person that I've grown to love and admire and respect and cherish."

 

All I'm saying is that you don't have to see things in the worst possible way. Since we can't change the men we fall in love with, perhaps we can relax enough in their love and in our relationship to see things from a different perspective - one that is not so damaging to our minds.

 

Again, like I said in previous post, I've met lots of wonderful men, any of whom I could have ended up dating and falling in love with because they were terrific human beings and very sexy to me. However, just because I met them and was attracted to them (and some of them were richer, handsomer, funnier, and in some ways more compatible with me than my bf), I still had no real desire to leave my bf for any of them, nor did my feelings for my bf lessen because of their existence.

 

I'm sure my bf has met many attractive women over the last couple years - women he probably has more in common with, or women who are hotter, younger, funnier, smarter, and maybe some women who are all of the above. He'd have to be dead to not notice them! Still, he chooses to be with me, and he's affectionate and loving and a fantastic lover. And that's what counts, to me.

[CynicalP]

 

Cynical- If we are going to equate ourselves only to our animalistic/biological counterparts, then we must look at how biologically women act. You say (paraphrasing) porn is normal b/c men have a biological urge to spread their seed. You also say that women prefer monogamy b/c it ensures the survival and protection of their children. That is only partially true. Females prefer monogamy only so long as the male can provide. When a bigger, stronger, richer male comes along, the female jumps ship. So how do we equate this to the porn debate? Would you want a woman who is always fantasizing that you were bigger, stronger, richer, or was always looking for that next male to go to? Always fantasizing about would 'could be?'

 

I think that sort of true and does apply for some women (the gold digger types certainly always out for the biggest wallet ). I think the majority women choose the best candidate ( the biggest, strongest, richest ) available to them that they themselves can attract. Unlike some species humans have a mutual attraction mechanism governed by the available population. The biggest, strongest and richest male may not find the a particular female desirable ( perhaps a few beers can remedy that situation - lol ). Now the question is how many women stick with the biggest, strongest, richest candidate once he evolves into beer belly, balding, and broke since she helped him spend most of his wealth? Besides, I am not exactly sure what women fantasize about, perhaps you can clue me in on that.

 

Also I think there was a recent survey of long lasting married couples ( 40+ years I believe ) that asked both partners:If you could choose to do the marriage over again would you remarry the same person. The majority of male respondants said yes they would remarry the same woman again, and the majority of female respondants said no they wouldnt married the same guy again giving the choice. Perhaps all those women were fantastizing about the other guy but stuck it out reagardless.