Phone Sex, Porn and the Internet in Relationships

[Ladyjane14]

Now the question is how many women stick with the biggest, strongest, richest candidate once he evolves into beer belly, balding, and broke since she helped him spend most of his wealth? Besides, I am not exactly sure what women fantasize about, perhaps you can clue me in on that.

 

'Intellect over Instinct' again would be my guess. She makes a conscious choice to keep him and love him anyway. (In terms of wealth though... I think most folks are better off financially when they share retirement, so I'm not sure how much merit there is to the idea of 'exhausting his wealth'. These days, the balding-beerbelly-guy has more resources than his younger counterparts. )

 

Also I think there was a recent survey of long lasting married couples ( 40+ years I believe ) that asked both partners:If you could choose to do the marriage over again would you remarry the same person. The majority of male respondants said yes they would remarry the same woman again, and the majority of female respondants said no they wouldnt married the same guy again giving the choice.

 

Maybe that survey is a good indicator of the importance of a guy meeting his wife's emotional needs within the marriage. (????)

 

These days, we aren't seeing nearly as many marriages last 40 years. We're seeing ALOT of women opting for divorce because they aren't happy with the relationship. These women are no longer dependant upon a man to support them or their children. So... the heat is turned up on the man to provide for her emotional comfort. The other side of the coin though, is that men are doing well enough overall that oftentimes... they can elect to change partners as well and still maintain quite a bit of support for their children.

 

I think it's possible that our own affluence as a society could be causal in the deconstruction of our families.

 

My ancestors were farming folk. They had no such luxury when it came to fulfilling ENs. They were too worried about eating and staying warm to have time to mind-f*ck one another. Their lives were rather basic, and survival itself was often their chief concern.

[Pink_Tulip]

Wow, this has been a neat discussion!

 

Nora- Yes I did get to the 'moist' part, lol. I guess I have more of a male brain or something? The books seemed silly to me, the sex boring, and the fantasy ridiculous. Now for anyone who enjoys them, good for you. I just don't get them myself. I'd love to hear from someone who reads them now and their take on the matter. I guess my thoughts were, why read about great sex when I could be having it, you know? My H never fails to accomodate in that department.

 

As for your take on Stella's H responses, that is one thing on this board, you only hear one side of the story. Maybe she was nagging him to death so he just exploded, we'll have to wait and see what she says. And maybe I am more sensitive, but personal attacks are a HUGE no no in my relationship. I come from a very emotionally abusive mother, so it is such a violation of trust to me I can't come back from it. I am fortunate enough to have a H who has never done that to me, but I know it would seriously damage our relationship if he did. Know what I mean?

 

And I get what you are saying about meeting men at work and such and developing little crushes, everyone does it. But I think an issue some women have is that when I find myself attracted to another man, I am aware of it and really keep myself in check. Men are attracted to porn and purposefully seek it out. I get that one is a live person and one is a computer screen, but the feelings of rejection still hurt for some. I guess that is why I keep saying over and over, women need to find men who share similar opinions in this matter so they don't end up knee deep in it when they find out.

 

Cynical- lol, you really proved my point about the double standard. 'I think that sort of true and does apply for some women (the gold digger types certainly always out for the biggest wallet ).' Why is it normal for a man to want to spread his seed, but when a woman is looking for the best man to support her and her children, she is a gold digger? What is the term for the older man who supports the young, hot 18 year old trophy GF? You know, the gold digger? Thats right, there isn't one. Only the woman is labeled. I know this isn't directly related to porn, but I think it goes to show where many women feel this inequity in relationships and sex, if that makes sense.

 

And I have seen that survey, as well as a few more. Married men are the happiest, married women are the most depressed. Single women are the happiest, single men most depressed. Why is that? I think LJ was right about men getting comfortable and not working to meet his W's EN's like women try to meet men's. I also have seen stats that show women are more likely to file for divorce than men. I know in my own situation, I was the one ready to leave. My H was perfectly happy being lazy and getting everything he needed, and not having to work to do anything for me. Why would he leave? He had it made. I imagine many marriages are like that.

 

I think, LJ, that you are right that affluence has caused many people to leave a marriage who would otherwise stay. BUT, I think that it can be a good thing. B/c now BOTH people have to work to make it happy. Before, women got screwed a lot and were stuck. I think the marriages that work now are better, you know what I mean? I think the burden on society now is educating BOTH men and women about how to make a marriage successful, so the divorce rate drops.

[Ladyjane14]

I'd love to hear from someone who reads them now and their take on the matter.

 

I read 'em by the dozen.. that is, when I have time. My screen-name is actually from Diana Gabaldon's Outlander. I prefer historical but I won't bother to read Regency's. I totally skip through the sex scenes because they are BORING. I only read good authors, and I read for story. Girl meets boy. Bad guy causes mayhem... everyone lives happily ever after. It's like candy.

Reading "lite" for a person who enjoys straight history and historical biography/sociology.

 

The sex scenes are generally required by the publisher as defined by contract in order to fit into the genre classification.

And honestly.... I can't imagine any non-virgins who would even be mildly titillated by romance novels. Really.

 

 

I think, LJ, that you are right that affluence has caused many people to leave a marriage who would otherwise stay. BUT, I think that it can be a good thing. B/c now BOTH people have to work to make it happy. Before, women got screwed a lot and were stuck. I think the marriages that work now are better, you know what I mean? I think the burden on society now is educating BOTH men and women about how to make a marriage successful, so the divorce rate drops.

 

True on all counts.

But 'affluence' has other downsides as well... not that I think we should go back to plowing our own fields with mules or anything crazy like that!

 

We don't get as much exercize as we used to, and we seem to have plenty of time to watch TV and worry INORDINATELY about our happiness quotient.... but damn little time to teach our kids decent manners or how to SPELL.

 

(My own kids eat like WOLVES!!! Must be because of all the time I spend here at LS.... and reading ROMANCE NOVELS!!! )

[Pink_Tulip]

 

And honestly.... I can't imagine any non-virgins who would even be mildly titillated by romance novels. Really.

 

See, this was my thought also. If you enjoy the romance of the story, I get that. But I guess I was stuck on equating them to porn in more of a literal translation, you know? I guess my point was, there isn't anything that women have that is equal to porn for men. Or at least, I haven't found it yet.

 

As for too much time to think about our happiness... I don't know about that one. Is it wrong to want to be completely happy? I don't necessarily think so. I think our society would be healthier if every child came from a loving home, with parents who truly valued eachother, and worked to understand eachother in the relationship. I think it is easy to say that women are at fault for the porn discussion, since this is 'what men do.' Internet has only been around for a short time, this is a new thing to deal with. The rate at which men look at porn now compared to before the internet is astronomically higher, you can't change behavior to that degree and not expect there to be a consequence to that behavior- namely women getting pissed off. It's like saying to men, now that we women can hold great jobs and support ourselves, you better start minding your P's and Q's or we are outta here. Deal with it. You can't force your opinion on anyonne, and you can't force the opposite sex to bow to your newfound changes simply b/c it feels good to do so. There has to be some compromise, some time for a learning curve, time to see what is too much, etc. Anytime society has made a drastic change and refused to look at the benefits as well as the consequences, bad things happen. Hope that makes sense.

[Ladyjane14]

As for too much time to think about our happiness... I don't know about that one. Is it wrong to want to be completely happy?

 

I dunno. I think maybe when we get too caught up in making ourselves happy... we sometimes fail to notice how happy we already are, or could potentially be with just a little tweaking. We stop smelling the roses... stop noticing the silver lining in our clouds.

 

People are already egocentric enough. Lord, if we start spending all our time thinking about our own happiness quotient, we'll be bumping into walls next thing... not able to see past our own blinders.

 

To be honest, I've noticed that I'm at my happiest when 'my people' are happy. I'm more satisified with the quality of my life, that sense of purpose. Sometimes I have to give a little in order to make it happen.

 

I think it is easy to say that women are at fault for the porn discussion, since this is 'what men do.' Internet has only been around for a short time, this is a new thing to deal with. The rate at which men look at porn now compared to before the internet is astronomically higher, you can't change behavior to that degree and not expect there to be a consequence to that behavior- namely women getting pissed off.

 

Agreed. That sh*t nearly ruined my life, so I can definitely identify with the problem. But I couldn't SOLVE it. It wasn't my problem to solve.

 

All I could do was to set up the parameters and let him solve it on his own. Surprisingly, once I became the healthiest, most supportive partner I could be... once I firmly entrenched myself on his team, he just didn't need it anymore.

 

He's still completely free to look. But most the time he doesn't bother with it. If he wants to look, I'm not feeling threatened these days. It's no skin off my nose, because I KNOW he's just looking. His heart is here.

 

You know, I agree with Norajane that alot of guys are interested in seeing the act itself. Erotic, sure... but I'm thinking that maybe just a smidge of their interest is in checking their own technique, getting some pointers, making sure they're up-to-date on the latest trends. (Like it changes much. Good grief guys... it's as old as ADAM! )

 

Anyway, I've noticed that for men who are confident in real life and assured of their mate's approval.. it's not quite as interesting.

 

In the end, I don't think we can effectively change anything but ourselves. But... personally, I experienced quite a change in my relationship when I adopted that particular strategy. And all I had to do was put myself out there and be the best partner I could be.

[Pink_Tulip]

Well, when I wasn't concerned about my own happiness, I was miserable. I gave up everything for H, thinking if I just make him happy, he'll see how great a wife I was and return the favor. So I gave and gave, and he took and took. He completely took me for granted, and after only a few years, there was nothing of me left. I had no self esteem, no sense of value, b/c the person I was looking to to validate that for me saw me as a doormat. It wasn't until I got selfish that I became happy. That is what I mean. I am not talking about a woman who can't be happy b/c she can't get a pedicure every week. I am talking about being proactive in your own life. If you aren't happy, do something about it. I had to actively think about myself and my life to make changes that made me happy, rather than sit in my miserable marriage not complaining. That is my point about happiness, hope that makes better sense.

 

And about men just looking at the act... OK. Lets say, for one month, the ONLY porn available was of really unnattractive, obese people. You think men would still be logging in at the same numbers to 'see the act?' LOL! I highly doubt it. It IS more than sex. I think how much more depends on the man, but lets be honest. Men want to see the act performed by ATTRACTIVE women.

[norajane]

And about men just looking at the act... OK. Lets say, for one month, the ONLY porn available was of really unnattractive, obese people. You think men would still be logging in at the same numbers to 'see the act?' LOL! I highly doubt it. It IS more than sex. I think how much more depends on the man, but lets be honest. Men want to see the act performed by ATTRACTIVE women.

 

You've never heard of BBW's and how many men love them???

 

Seriously, have you ever watched amateur porn? It's one of the fastest growing porn genres out there - regular people posting their home videos. Those are not airbrushed beautiful people.

[Ladyjane14]

Well, when I wasn't concerned about my own happiness, I was miserable. I gave up everything for H, thinking if I just make him happy, he'll see how great a wife I was and return the favor. So I gave and gave, and he took and took. He completely took me for granted, and after only a few years, there was nothing of me left. I had no self esteem, no sense of value, b/c the person I was looking to to validate that for me saw me as a doormat. It wasn't until I got selfish that I became happy. That is what I mean. I am not talking about a woman who can't be happy b/c she can't get a pedicure every week. I am talking about being proactive in your own life. If you aren't happy, do something about it. I had to actively think about myself and my life to make changes that made me happy, rather than sit in my miserable marriage not complaining. That is my point about happiness, hope that makes better sense.

 

Now that I think about it... I remember we talked about this once on another thread. Your perspective I imagine was a bit like my husband's. He was depressed and unhappy to the point of misery. Eventually, he start acting out on it.

 

I suppose in alot of respects it all comes down to which partner is in crisis, and what the other partner is willing to do about it.

 

Our OP can only decide if her crisis is bigger than her husband's. If she feels it is, and he's unwilling to get onboard and address it.... GAME OVER.

 

And about men just looking at the act... OK. Lets say, for one month, the ONLY porn available was of really unnattractive, obese people. You think men would still be logging in at the same numbers to 'see the act?' LOL! I highly doubt it. It IS more than sex. I think how much more depends on the man, but lets be honest. Men want to see the act performed by ATTRACTIVE women.

 

Yeah... actually, I'm with Norajane on that one. I think they'd log on it record numbers and then spend an inordinate amount of time emailing clips and talking about it at the watercooler.

[Ladyjane14]

 

Those are not airbrushed beautiful people!!!!

 

I had to put that in bold, add exclamation points, and an "eek" for good measure... 'cause it's sooooo true.

[Pink_Tulip]

OK, you know what? I am just gonna stop commenting on porn and sexy books, cuz I am apparently wayyy to naive to be commenting... BBW? Oh my. I am gonna go back to watching Discovery Health and reading my non fiction..

[Ladyjane14]

OK, you know what? I am just gonna stop commenting on porn and sexy books, cuz I am apparently wayyy to naive to be commenting... BBW? Oh my. I am gonna go back to watching Discovery Health and reading my non fiction..

 

 

You haven't lived until you've heard the words, "Hey honey... come look at this." .... and then gone blind for an hour. :laugh:

[norajane]

OK, you know what? I am just gonna stop commenting on porn and sexy books, cuz I am apparently wayyy to naive to be commenting... BBW? Oh my. I am gonna go back to watching Discovery Health and reading my non fiction..

 

 

Well, don't pick up a book on Rubens' paintings, then...BBW's have been in vogue for centuries...

[Pink_Tulip]

You haven't lived until you've heard the words, "Hey honey... come look at this." .... and then gone blind for an hour. :laugh:

 

:lmao:

 

Please Lord, let this NEVER happen to me!

[Trimmer]

Gee, I had to look up BBW, and I ended up at the website of "Bucharest Business Week" - got to admit, I've always liked the look of Romanian women...

 

You know, I actually have more agreement with some of the OP's points than it might seem - any man who "turns to porn" to the detriment of the health of his own relationship, any man who fails to understand or refuses to try to understand his partner, is a capital-L-on-the-forehead Loser. On this, I bet we agree. Where I get bogged down, Jersey, is your distress - that I can't quite understand. After I pushed your "all men" attitude back at you, you very clearly sprinkled the word "some" before "men" in most of your subsequent postings, but I think you're not being true to yourself by doing that. Your original point was that men, as a generalizaton, think/feel/act this certain way, and that you have not been able to find a single exception.

 

So if I then read you literally when you subsequently changed your lexicon, and started talking about "some men do this, some men do that", I would think "yeah I agree, some do, and that's unfortunate for them and their prospects for healthy relationships. But I'm sure glad Jersey is in touch with her feelings and needs on this issue, so she can screen out the ones that won't work for her." Discussion over. We agree!

 

But that still overlooks your frustration that you "can't seem to find one man" who doesn't look at porn, your statement-as-fact that "men can't love women," etc. From reading your posts, I still believe your frustration is not just with "some" men, but with the whole lot of that bunch, and I'm really sorry about that.

 

At some point, when you are so sure that you understand men's natures so completely, and so confidently, and that you find them disagreeable in such a significant deal-breaking way and can't really find any middle ground, or have any desire to do so, what's left? Swear off men? I'm not asking this in a hostile way, but truly: what is your point, then? What question are you really asking, and is it one that anyone could ever answer to your satisfaction?

 

On to other points (this has been a great thread!):

You can't force your opinion on anyone, and you can't force the opposite sex to bow to your newfound changes simply b/c it feels good to do so. There has to be some compromise, some time for a learning curve, time to see what is too much, etc. Anytime society has made a drastic change and refused to look at the benefits as well as the consequences, bad things happen. Hope that makes sense.

I believe you said this in the context of women being expected to accept the increasing prevalence of porn in recent years. Hmmm, it does indeed make sense, and I agree with your comments in that original context. It also reads interestingly if you reverse the gender contexts, in relation to the longer term trend away from the male-dominant model of relationships, and the equalizing of social, interpersonal, and sexual power of women in the last 50 years or so. Some of us expect men to bow to these newfound changes, to the degree that mens' instinctive dominance, sexual drive, agression, etc. are supposed to be just 'thought' away with intellect over instinct. As I have posted many times before in relation to both sexes (usually in the context of infidelity, which seems to be pretty much an equal opportunity employer...), I don't expect human beings to control the urges or instincts they feel, but I do expect them to control the behaviors and choices they make as a result of those feelings. Intellect over instinct indeed, but that doesn't mean the instinct evaporates.

 

Look I'm not even presenting this in the context of "defending" porn here - I've set that aside as almost peripheral to Jersey's real frustration - but part of this discussion (and what I believe to be a significant part of the her frustration) has turned toward the "nature of men" when they look around and have urges and inner instincts. Jersey posted that if we're going to look around and imagine, then we might just as well dump our partners, because that's just as good as cheating. I disagree. She also posts that looking around and imagining is equivalent to wanting, and although I think this is a more subtle point, I still disagree.

 

Since I have been going on and on about how she has still not shared anything personal about her own life situation or experiences (she has only shared her frustration at what is NOT happening in her life, nothing about what is happening or has happened...) I'll practice what I preach and tell a story about a situation that happened to me. Just for a tasty bit of literary foreshadowing, the admittedly egocentric moral of the story is: "Fantasizing is not the same as wanting something."

 

When I was married, back around 12 years ago (before kids) I was on a business trip, by myself, to a city thousands of miles away from home. When I checked in to pick up my rental car, the agent (a female, could you see it coming???) was pleasant and chatty (as was I, in return), and even upgraded me to the next level of car for free. In the spirit of the ongoing banter, I jokingly replied "How could I possibly thank you?" and she replied "You could take me out for a drink..."

 

Now, let's FREEZE FRAME, and take stock here for a moment.

 

We're watching a man thousands of miles from home, in a city where no one knows him; he's not there for long, and will likely never go back. He's a man who, like many men, during his life has enjoyed having women as classmates, colleagues, friends, lovers, confidants, and so on. He is a man who has imagined - wondered - what it would be like to have sex with women ranging from movie stars to librarians, computer programmers to waitresses. Sometimes they have been classically "attractive" in appearance. Just as often the spark has been a simple smile, eye contact, something spoken that simply grabs his attention.

 

So here he is, with the perfect crime laid out before him. And even if his motives are not so deep and dark as some might imagine, what would it hurt to just have a drink with a person in a new, unfamiliar city? It really isn't anything, right? He only has to tell himself it is "just a drink" and he wouldn't even have to explain it to anyone else.

 

Basically, whether he just wants a little ego boost, or if he maybe wants to explore the possibilities with this woman, and "just" have a drink, there is NO obstacle, no outward consequence. Might as well keep your options open, since it's a no-risk situation, right? And if a drink leads to something further - and with that opening line, don't we, as the audience, really have to admit to that possibility? - there exist none of the classic checks and balances - a work colleague travelling along, someone "local" who might see him. If it is what he wants, then it can happen; this is the moment, and no one will be the wiser.

 

PRESS PLAY.

 

I laughed, reached out for the rental contract with my left hand - the one on which I wore my wedding ring - said "thanks again," and left.

 

For fair disclosure, and just so that we have some kind of a shocker ending, I believe that later that night, I masturbated to a fantasy of what might have happened. Ewwww, Ick, right? Well, I'm laying all this out because I'm trying to point out that imagining something, fantasizing about something, even masturbating to a mental image of something, is not the same as wanting it to become a reality. (And this is not about porn - it's about Jersey's assertion that thinking and fantasizing is equivalent to cheating.) I didn't want to have sex with her, I didn't even want to have a drink with her. I didn't want my wife to be more like her. I didn't want anyone's boobs to be bigger. I was going to be away from home for a week, and I indulged in a little fantasy "brush with possibility", and I went on with my life, fully knowing why I turned it down: What I wanted was my life with my wife, the best and only woman in the world for me - the reality of my life in all its joy and complication. It wasn't even a consideration - it took me longer to realize what she had said than it did to reply with the obvious "thanks-again"-and-move-on response. It wasn't a dilemma.

 

So there you have it, my own personal experience, as related to Jersey's unsupported but confidently stated assertions of fact that:

If you are thinking about doing it it means you might as well do it and not pretend you are being loyal to your woman.... It means obviously your partner isn't enough so you are seeking something out else where.

 

As a man, and knowing myself as I do, I am satisfied with my behavior, my motivations, and my loyalty, and although I am a little embarrassed to share that final very private detail here, I believe it is directly germane to the situation and to my point. I lay my experience out for comment. I'm not claiming some moral high-ground - I'm just going through life handling my urges and feelings as I can, and behaving in a way that I have learned modern society expects of me. Intellect over Instinct. Fantasizing but not wanting.

 

So there you have it - what do you think? Am I an anomaly, some kind of saint in a situation where most men would have "gone for it" - at least checked out the scene with a risk-free drink - in the absence of obstacles? Or am I a dog for even talking in a friendly way to the counter agent in the first place, and/or a scumbag for imagining her in a sexual way and masturbating later on? I've been honest here - give it back to me (you, too Jersey; let it rip...)

 

Incidentally, in response to some comments that men expect women "to be OK" with their stuff, but don't make any attempt to understand women in return, yes it happens, but I don't believe it's a general rule. I hope for a relationship in which both partners can say: I want to do my best to understand and accommodate my partner's feelings, even though, as a man/woman, I may not be able to directly feel them myself. And I don't expect a partner - on either side - to just have to stuff it and to "be OK with" things by declaration, like "it's my porn- deal with it." I see that as a situation where a partner is intentionally (or at least neglegently) failing to assist in reaching an understanding, and I believe that to be a pathological pattern in a relationship. Coming from either side.

 

Well, so much to say, but it's too long already anyway...

[Trimmer]

Yes I did get to the 'moist' part, lol.

Sorry, I can't help it, but I always think of Pink Amulet when that word comes up. Clearly she won't be participating in this thread... (Reference here.)

 

 

Cynical- lol, you really proved my point about the double standard. 'I think that sort of true and does apply for some women (the gold digger types certainly always out for the biggest wallet ).' Why is it normal for a man to want to spread his seed, but when a woman is looking for the best man to support her and her children, she is a gold digger? What is the term for the older man who supports the young, hot 18 year old trophy GF? You know, the gold digger? Thats right, there isn't one. Only the woman is labeled.

SugarDaddy, Dirty Old Man, or (derisively) "He's having a mid-life crisis." I'm not convinced it's as strong a double standard as you think. There's always someone ready to throw mud....

 

I think, LJ, that you are right that affluence has caused many people to leave a marriage who would otherwise stay. BUT, I think that it can be a good thing. B/c now BOTH people have to work to make it happy. Before, women got screwed a lot and were stuck. I think the marriages that work now are better, you know what I mean? I think the burden on society now is educating BOTH men and women about how to make a marriage successful, so the divorce rate drops.

I agree. I also wonder if part of it is this idea that everyone is looking for a "soulmate" who "completes you". I wonder if we are giving up our responsibility for our own happiness and satisfaction, by expecting our partner not just to be a good, committed, caring partner, but to actually fit well enough to fill some ill-defined empty space within us - do we look for too much validation of ourselves coming externally from our partners? And so when it turns out that a perfectly reasonable partner doesn't completely fill that empty space within us that we think needs to be satisfied from the outside, it becomes the partner's fault, and switching partners looks like the obvious solution.

 

I admit that these comments are strongly colored by my own experience - to the degree that sometimes I'm not sure what a normal relationship would feel like. Part of my process in the last couple years has been recovering my sense that I am responsible for my own satisfaction and happiness, when I had poured everything into my family and my marriage, and expected my marriage to fill that place. If I get into another relationship, I hope to have a more confident sense of my own control over and responsibility for my satisfaction with my life. I'm still not sure whether that makes me more experienced and prepared, realistic, jaded, or just one of the walking wounded....

[Pink_Tulip]

I believe you said this in the context of women being expected to accept the increasing prevalence of porn in recent years. Hmmm, it does indeed make sense, and I agree with your comments in that original context. It also reads interestingly if you reverse the gender contexts, in relation to the longer term trend away from the male-dominant model of relationships, and the equalizing of social, interpersonal, and sexual power of women in the last 50 years or so. Some of us expect men to bow to these newfound changes, to the degree that mens' instinctive dominance, sexual drive, agression, etc. are supposed to be just 'thought' away with intellect over instinct. As I have posted many times before in relation to both sexes (usually in the context of infidelity, which seems to be pretty much an equal opportunity employer...), I don't expect human beings to control the urges or instincts they feel, but I do expect them to control the behaviors and choices they make as a result of those feelings. Intellect over instinct indeed, but that doesn't mean the instinct evaporates.

 

Good reading T. I actually wrote it in reference to both porn and women's new affluence in society. It seems a lot of problems in this forum- and others- come from women not happy about porn, or women not putting 100% of themselves into the relationship b/c they don't have to (read sex), and women who are stuck in marriages where the H isn't fulfilling her EN and is ready to leave. All of these issues are new for us culturally, and the learning curve is still quite low.

 

It used to be that a man's responsiblility was to put food on the table and a roof over the family's head. Now they need to be caring, loving, sensitive, etc. Most men didn't have fathers who taught this, so they are learning it through trial and error in their relationships, and it is very hard. And since women are able to support themselves now, they are not forced to stay in the marriage and work it out. Which, in a sense is a good thing, b/c many men wouldn't change if they didn't have to. That was my personal experience. But, it also has women leaving too easily, or waiting for a man to change on his own- waiting so long that by the time they are forceful and say something, it is too late, the relationship is beyond repair anyway. We as a society need to educate men about their new roles in a relationship, and we need to educate women about how to communicate their needs to their men, rather than assuming men are psychic and already know all this stuff. Likewise, we need to educate women about the importance of sex in a relationship. This was discussed on another thread also, good stuff.

 

Porn is the same way. I know growing up, there was no porn. In high school, if one of the guys got ahold of a playboy, it was huge news. Women grew up not even thinking about it, believing all the romantic stuff, that when a man loves you, you loves YOU, and looking at another woman just wasn't an interest. And maybe it wasn't, b/c it really wasn't an option without the internet, so there was no issue. Again, we were raised to think that guys basically thought like women, with the addition of liking sports and fishing. It has been a huge shock for women my age and older (I'm 34) to have to deal with internet porn, since this is new for us. Maybe younger women who grew up with it see it as 'normal.' Many of my friends have issues with their H's either looking at porn, spending too much time on online games, etc. Same as above, something so huge is pushed onto society, it is gonna cause problems, at least for a generation or two.

 

Hope that clarifies it a bit.

 

As far as the sugardaddy stuff... I still don't know. When a man walks around with a hot 18 year old on his arm, other men are high fiving him, not shaking their heads in disgust. It is still accepted in society for a man to have a young GF for sex, but it is NOT ok for a young girl to use sex for money. Not saying either one is right, but there is a slant against the woman moreso than the man.

[Pink_Tulip]

I agree. I also wonder if part of it is this idea that everyone is looking for a "soulmate" who "completes you". I wonder if we are giving up our responsibility for our own happiness and satisfaction, by expecting our partner not just to be a good, committed, caring partner, but to actually fit well enough to fill some ill-defined empty space within us - do we look for too much validation of ourselves coming externally from our partners? And so when it turns out that a perfectly reasonable partner doesn't completely fill that empty space within us that we think needs to be satisfied from the outside, it becomes the partner's fault, and switching partners looks like the obvious solution.

 

I agree with this, and think it is a societal issue we need to change. I think a lot of people who are dissatisfied with their life in some way, believe it is b/c they are missing a partner, and look for a partner to make it all better, or that something is wrong with the partner they have. And we all know what a disaster that can turn into. But this belief is perpetuated by romantic movies, books, and advice we give. How many times have I heard someone tell a young person, 'Don't marry someone you can live with, marry someone you can't live without.' This implies that you should NEED your partner to complete and fulfill you. So is it any wonder we have so many marriages falling apart b/c someone is blaming a partner for not 'making' them happy?

 

Again, I experienced this myself. I kept reading and hearing that if you put everything into your marriage, your partner will become so appreciative and put everything they have in also, and you will live happily ever after. Well, I did that, and my H sat back and enjoyed the ride. He had no motivation to change, he was getting a great deal! It wasn't until I got pissed off, met someone else who made me feel somewhat worthwhile, and got some self esteem back, that I was ready to walk. I had to be selfish to be happy. Now, thats not how things are now. We both give 100%, and it is great. But, there still is that tiny part of me that is always aware, always sounding an alarm when I feel taken advantage of or start getting resentful. And I listen to it and speak up, where as before, I just would have kept my mouth shut and did something nice for my H. That is what I was talking about earlier when I said I think it is important to think about your happiness in a relationship. There is a difference in working to make yourself happy in the context of a relationship, and becomming so critical of your spouse that you can never be happy, know what I mean?

[Jersey Shortie]

I have alot to respond too.

 

This was said by Guest:

 

And your insecurities are the problem.

 

To a point this is true. Why wouldn't I be insecure? When the man you love jerks off to implanted girls who aren't over the age of 25, you begin to wonder where you fit in that and you know you don't fit.

 

 

 

You also have a very low opinion of men, since you seem to think that the only reason they have anything to do with women is looks.

 

I don't have a low opinion of men. I think it's men that have the low opinion of women. Looks are more important to men then women. This is why they make movies about naked women with implants and whatever else. They certainly aren't making them about women's wonderful personalities. And while there are women that like porn, the majority of porn is made for men.

 

 

I wonder why people even bother eating cheese since it is obviously not satisfying to them if they're going to eat vegetables and meat and all those other things. Why not JUST EAT CHEESE?????

 

Are you trying to say people are cheese? Because last time I checked people deserved a little more respect then cheese or vegetables. I hate when people compare inanimate objects and situations to real life people.

 

 

It's unrealistic and then some to think that you should be the total center of someone's life to the point that he can't even enjoy looking at any other woman

.

 

I don't expect to be the center of his life where he never notices other women. But we aren't just talking about noticing other women. We are talking about the seeking out of other women through porn, strip clubs or fantasies.

 

 

I wonder why women base their entire mindsets on false assumptions like "men always wish women were something other than what they are". It is simply not true.

 

 

The facts and evidence point to the fact that is in fact true.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I had previously asked what others thought was equal for women that porn is to men.

 

New Stella said:

 

"Maybe really successful men?"

 

But women don't sit there masturbating to really successful men I don't think. We don't make mags of Forbes best and wank it.

 

 

If men have instinct to have many sexual partners, maybe women have need to have many 'emotional' partners?

 

You mean other *male* emotional partners? How many guys do you think would be okay with their woman having emotional partners with other men?

[Jersey Shortie]

Lady:

 

Fantasy isn't reality though. The reality I just witnessed as one of my friend's dealt with a cheating husband doesn't even begin to compare.

 

 

Fantasy isn't reality but men seem to think it is what is better then what they have. As far as the cheating husband thing, that is awful but not really waht the subject is about here.

 

 

Intellectually you do... but you aren't accepting the mystery of it yet. It's something you will NEVER fully understand no matter how hard you try. You can only approximate it, same as men must do regarding women.

 

 

Yes that is true. But I can't accept the mystery of it because the mystery of it means he isn't happy with what he has.

 

Jersey SHortie:

 

Maybe men should TRY and imagine what it feels like for his wife/gf to know your man is thinking about other women that he probably thinks is better then what he has got.

 

Lady:

You're putting words into his mouth here.

 

How am I putting words into anyone's mouth? Men can't imagine what it is like for their wive/gf?

 

 

When it comes to REAL other women, you shouldn't.

 

So I should compromise on the fantasy ones that will always be 10 times better then what he has at home.

 

 

 

I'm not insecure about porn stars. I've got more to offer my husband than any porn star ever did. I'm a real person in his life, with lots of great qualities. There ain't nothin' Miss Porn Star's gonna do for him in the real world.

 

Who do you htink he would pick though if he had a chance with Miss Porn Star. Say all things between you two were equal in personality and such. I would bet every time the guys would pick the porn star all things being equal in other areas. So that pretty much says that all she has to do is spread her legs and show up on screen and you have to work your ass of just to get a little affection and attention.

 

 

You're in your own head here a little bit, dear. "Men don't get that because this isn't a threat to them". (????)

Well, it's not a REAL threat to you either.

 

It isn't a threat to them because it is about appealing to them. It isn't a threat to them because porn isn't about their insecurities and what they lack.

 

 

 

You know... it's the hardest thing sometimes to really TRUST another human being. Sometimes you have to climb out on the limb and just hope it's not going to break. And you have to have faith that IF it does, you'll be tough enough and strong enough to handle it.

 

What's wrong with TRUSTING that your man loves you?

What's wrong with believing him when he says you're beautiful in his eyes or that you are the only one? Do you think that looking at porn makes him a liar?

 

Look... I'm NO FAN of the porn industry. I find it repulsive and a huge drain on our society.

But when you get down to one human relationship at a time... I don't think it's necessarily something that should be a deal-breaker. If this really is the straw that breaks the camels back for you, chances are you're with the wrong man. You'll need to be VERY CAREFUL in choosing your next mate and making certain that you're on the same page regarding this issue.

 

You know, there ARE men out there who are likeminded. We've spoken in generalities to a great extent here. Not every man looks at porn.

[Trimmer]

Jersey SHortie:

Who do you htink he would pick though if he had a chance with Miss Porn Star. Say all things between you two were equal in personality and such. I would bet every time the guys would pick the porn star all things being equal in other areas. So that pretty much says that all she has to do is spread her legs and show up on screen and you have to work your ass of just to get a little affection and attention.

Please refer to my post #89 in this thread for an example of a man presented with just such a choice. I have no reason to believe LadyJane's husband would be any different.

 

Now, if you are proposing the idea that if he were not married to LJ, and he had this choice between two otherwise identical women, the only difference being looks, that he would pick the more attractive one, then yes, I would agree. And I believe most women, presented with the same scenario, would do the same. The only thing this thought experiment supports is that, all other things being equal, human beings would choose a more attractive mate. Is this a big surprise?

[Jersey Shortie]

Trimmer:

 

At some point, when you are so sure that you understand men's natures so completely, and so confidently, and that you find them disagreeable in such a significant deal-breaking way and can't really find any middle ground, or have any desire to do so, what's left? Swear off men? I'm not asking this in a hostile way, but truly: what is your point, then? What question are you really asking, and is it one that anyone could ever answer to your satisfaction?"

 

No I don't think you are hostile at all. I don't want to swear off men. I don't think I really ever could. I try to accept certain things about men but they usually leave me feeling sad and hurt at the end of the day and feeling like 2nd place. I don't know what the middle ground should be or how to find it. If I could answer your question I probably wouldn't post half the things I do post.

 

I do feel like men excuse their behavior so that they can have it all. The one woman who will be home for him when he gets home, and the fake woman who he really wants to masturbate too. I am obviously not the only woman that feels this way. This message board is filled with threads that are not so far different. You would think men would say.."gee, yeah wow I guess porn does effect them different and maybe this stuff is harmful". But do men say that? No. They just defend it time and time again.

 

 

 

But part of this discussion (and what I believe to be a significant part of the her frustration) has turned toward the "nature of men" when they look around and have urges and inner instincts.

 

Men want tons of different women and usually women just want one good guy. So it sucks to be the one who only wants one good guy when men always still want x amount of women. Why can't guys understand how that could make a woman feel, make things seem unfair, make things eem unbalanced and make you question where that leaves you at the end of the day?

 

It's the fact that even when men are in relationships, they don't try to be loyal any more then they have to. Men found a convenient way to have a relationship and other women at the same time. That is what it is right? I think what I am being told is porn and fantasy feeds guys desire for other women. So why do you guys bother with relationships if you end up making your partner feel like just another one of the crowd? If you have use other aids, like porn or thinking about anyone from the mail lady to your kids teacher, doesn't that make it easier for you to be loyal? So how loyal are you being if you are thinking about other women, still seeking them out in some shallow way and using them to get off to? It's like having the diet version of the orginal. So what exactly are men giving up to prove they care about you? Not much it seems. They just found a way to work around things so they could still get both things: One women to care about and x amount of women to think about sleeping with still.

It might not seem like it but I do love men but men are ultimately very selfish.

 

"Jersey posted that if we're going to look around and imagine, then we might just as well dump our partners, because that's just as good as cheating."

 

Well if you men want to spread your seed so much why do you bother with relationships?

 

 

"She also posts that looking around and imagining is equivalent to wanting, and although I think this is a more subtle point, I still disagree."

 

This is simple logic really. If you are getting hot and excited about something it means you want it to a certain degree. How can you possibly disagree with that? Fantasy means it is something you "want" but can't have no?

 

 

And this is not about porn - it's about Jersey's assertion that thinking and fantasizing is equivalent to cheating.

 

 

I don't think it is equivalent to cheating. But I don't think it is exactly the things that says "I love you and care about you and am looking to be with only you".

 

 

So there you have it - what do you think? Am I an anomaly, some kind of saint in a situation where most men would have "gone for it" - at least checked out the scene with a risk-free drink - in the absence of obstacles? Or am I a dog for even talking in a friendly way to the counter agent in the first place, and/or a scumbag for imagining her in a sexual way and masturbating later on? I've been honest here - give it back to me (you, too Jersey; let it rip...)

 

 

Well thank you for sharing your experience. I don't think you are an anomaly, a saint or a cheater. I am stuck in between commanding you for your loyality in terms of not physically sleeping or having drinks with another *real* woman in a different city. And the other side is condemning you for masturbating to her and thinking of her in a sexual way while you have wife back home.

[Jersey Shortie]

"Now, if you are proposing the idea that if he were not married to LJ, and he had this choice between two otherwise identical women, the only difference being looks, that he would pick the more attractive one, then yes, I would agree. And I believe most women, presented with the same scenario, would do the same. The only thing this thought experiment supports is that, all other things being equal, human beings would choose a more attractive mate. Is this a big surprise?"

 

 

Then you very backhandedly answered my question. I said if all things were identical between LadyJ and a PornStar...they had the same personalities and LadyJ looked like herself and we had the typical Porn Star in comparrison. You answered my question that most guys would go with the porn star. Because it seems like those girls are the epitome of what men find attractive and *real* women can't compare.

[Ladyjane14]

Fantasy isn't reality but men seem to think it is what is better then what they have. As far as the cheating husband thing, that is awful but not really waht the subject is about here.

 

I told you that story in order to offer you a different perspective, Jersey.

There's a big difference between worrying about something that might happen, and dealing with a Reality that has already occurred.

 

You seem to be REALLY anxious about this subject, as if there were a 'relationship disaster' at hand. But I think, with just a little bit of tweaking, you might resolve the conflict between you and your mate, and end up with something you both can live with. In other words, your reaction is BIG... but the action that initiated it isn't the worst case scenario.

 

I'm not trying to minimize your feelings, or tell you that the problem isn't worth solving because other people have it worse. Never that. But I do want you to understand that this problem isn't so big that it's insurmountable.

 

Yes that is true. But I can't accept the mystery of it because the mystery of it means he isn't happy with what he has.....

 

How am I putting words into anyone's mouth? Men can't imagine what it is like for their wive/gf?....

 

So I should compromise on the fantasy ones that will always be 10 times better then what he has at home.....

 

In each one of those statements, you assumed something. "He isn't happy with what he has at home". "Men can't imagine what it's like for their wife/girlfriend". "Fantasy (women) are 10 times better that what he has at home"

 

Honey, unless those words are coming out of your man's mouth... you're attributing thought and motive to him that he hasn't signed off on.

 

(btw... I truly do hope that you aren't in a situation in which you're actually hearing emotional or verbal abuse. If you are... please tell us about it. It changes EVERYTHING. )

 

Who do you htink he would pick though if he had a chance with Miss Porn Star. Say all things between you two were equal in personality and such. I would bet every time the guys would pick the porn star all things being equal in other areas. So that pretty much says that all she has to do is spread her legs and show up on screen and you have to work your ass of just to get a little affection and attention.

 

I went ahead and asked him. He said 'No' to MissPornThang. It's fun to look at, but he wouldn't actually want to be intimate with one. You know... cooties and all that.

 

Besides, that girl wouldn't be ME.

 

Let me share one of my favorite posts by Flavius:

Look at it this way. No matter who you are with there is always someone else out there better: prettier, sexier, smarter, richer, etc. And if you spend your whole life looking for a better deal, you'll find one. Problem is, you've spent your life, not invested it.

 

I fell in love with my wife because she was cute and nice and crazy about me. She still is all those things 20 years later, but now there's something more, and it's something I cannot find anywhere else: it's because it's HER. We have a life shared together, and that is absolutely irreplaceable. The life I gave her is part of her, and the life she gave me is part of me. Without her, I'm just not myself.

 

Now, that beautiful piece of sentiment was written by a MAN.

 

Yeah... they're different from us, both simpler and more complicated than we sometimes give them credit for being. But that doesn't mean that they don't feel the same emotions women feel when it comes to the marital relationship.

 

You haven't accounted for the bonding a man experiences with his wife. And while I don't have any science for you, I sometimes think that the bond a man has with his wife might be even stronger than the bond a wife has with her husband. In observation, a man's reaction upon separation due to death or divorce often seems to be a bit more extreme. I've seen elderly men literally give up an die after losing their wives.

 

There are good men and bad men... just like their female counterparts. If overall, you feel like you've got a pretty good man, your best bet is going to be to work through this problem until you've reached a solution you can BOTH be happy with.

 

Toward that end, you might try a tool like POJA (The Policy of Joint Agreement). You'll find that over at marriagebuilders.com. The basic premise is... that in working together on a problem, you continue to negotiate until both partners reach "enthusiastic" agreement. In that way, you avoid building resentment.

 

It isn't a threat to them because it is about appealing to them. It isn't a threat to them because porn isn't about their insecurities and what they lack.

 

It's within the realm of possibility that you might choose to reject some of these insecurities, particularly the self-inflicted ones. Give it some thought, okay? Make sure you're not underestimating yourself.

[Jersey Shortie]

I told you that story in order to offer you a different perspective, Jersey.

There's a big difference between worrying about something that might happen, and dealing with a Reality that has already occurred.

 

 

What exactly am I worrying about that "might" happen?????? I am talking about something that is already happening, the fact that men still seek out other women, while in a relationship.

 

 

 

"I'm not trying to minimize your feelings, or tell you that the problem isn't worth solving because other people have it worse. Never that. But I do want you to understand that this problem isn't so big that it's insurmountable."

 

 

I'm not trying to tell you your problem isn't important....BUT..Whenever anyone gets a "but" in there it pretty much means ignore everything they told you before that but because they don't really mean it.

 

I know other people have bigger problems. But this is a big problem for me. And apparently a big problem for many women considering the amount of women here that have posted about the subject in hurt and pain.

 

 

In each one of those statements, you assumed something

 

I made logical conclusions based on his actions.

 

 

 

(btw... I truly do hope that you aren't in a situation in which you're actually hearing emotional or verbal abuse. If you are... please tell us about it. It changes EVERYTHING. )

 

No, it isn't that at all.

 

 

I went ahead and asked him. He said 'No' to MissPornThang. It's fun to look at, but he wouldn't actually want to be intimate with one. You know... cooties and all that.

 

Besides, that girl wouldn't be ME.

 

 

Of course that is what he said. What do you think he was going to tell you?? What if MissPornThang had no cooties and was equal to you in all areas. Again, who do you think he would pic. If men were so concerned about individuality as you said "that girl wouldn't be ME"...they wouldn't love porn so much.

 

 

Now, that beautiful piece of sentiment was written by a MAN.

 

I wonder how much porn he looks at to keep that going.

[Pink_Tulip]

Jersey- I am just curious. What is it you hope to gain from posting on this thread? You won't discuss your personal situation, so we can't help you talk to your SO or work with you on any issue. Anytime someone gives you advice or proof that all men are not pigs, you either ignore them or refute it. I have said many times my H and I don't do porn. So there is at least one man I can verify doesn't. I know men from church who are very against it. A few more. But you seem to keep ignoring that and going on with your 'all men' statements.

 

Are you trying to prove to us that all men are pigs? Are you just venting? I am not really sure what to think of your posts anymore. I am not trying to be mean, just really trying to figure you out.

 

On a side note, I have really enjoyed this thread, and brought up the BBW's with my H. He has been laughing about it, and said maybe one night this week we will get brave and investigate this together, LOL! I told him LJ warned I may lose my eyesight.