Phone Sex, Porn and the Internet in Relationships

[Trimmer]

Ladybug:

 

I'm going to make some statements that are just guesses, but I'd be interested in your responses:

 

You sound like someone who feels secure and whole as an individual; in other words, you don't look to your partner to fill a void, or "complete you." I'm going to guess that you felt pretty much this way even when you weren't in a relationship - that you didn't need to find a man to validate your value as an individual; you weren't looking for a partner to come along and soothe your insecurities.... Again, I'm just guessing, and I know I'm getting personal here, but would you be willing to comment on my speculations?

[Ladybug313]

hi Trimmer, at first I thought you wanted me to speculate on everything you wrote in this entire thread but I am taking it just the stuff you wrote directly to me in your last post right? Sorry baby's been going to sleep really late and I'm a little loopy.

 

"You sound like someone who feels secure and whole as an individual; in other words, you don't look to your partner to fill a void, or "complete you." I'm going to guess that you felt pretty much this way even when you weren't in a relationship - that you didn't need to find a man to validate your value as an individual; you weren't looking for a partner to come along and soothe your insecurities.... Again, I'm just guessing, and I know I'm getting personal here, but would you be willing to comment on my speculations?"

 

--You are completely right. I like to think I am secure and whole as an invidual, and I have always been this way. I never think of a partner as someone to fill a void or "complete" me, more as someone who enhances and brings out your overall coolness (of course you gotta meet the right partner for that to happen) And yes I never felt I ever needed a man in any time of my life, even during the hormonal teenage girl phase when it seemed all my girlfriends were moaning and groaning about wanting a guy, or needing a bf, for all the wrong reasons. I don't know, call me selfish, but at the time having a bf seemed like so much work, with school and "finding" myself during that teen angst ridden phase of life and dealing with friends and mean people and growing independent etc etc etc. And I admit freely I never ever in my life felt "lonely for a guy". And so there I was minding my own business and studying my ass off in a foreign country called the U.S. of A and just having fun and my husband just appeared into my life. And I married him cuz uh, well I really loved the guy? tee hee hee. I was never thinking marriage, heck I wasn't even thinking about the "b" in boyfriend and well, it all just happened. And I don't regret it, though during the course of my marriage and having the baby, having conceived on our honeymoon, life suddenly got really overwhelming and I did go through an insecure phase and projected a lot of it onto the closest person in my life, my husband. It's easy to do that you see, cuz you are that close to that person.

 

I think it also has a lot to do with the fact that I left to study abroad on my own in the seventh grade and learned to rely on myself, and learned through my own experiences my strengths and weaknesses.

 

I don't know if you guys have already guessed my age by the way I write or whatever but for a 22 year old I don't think I did all that bad..(right right? hehehe) People call me crazy for tying the knot and having a child when I am supposed to be having the time of my life. But you know what? I chose to get married cuz I honestly felt I was ready. And I chose to have the baby, though unplanned as it was, cuz I honestly felt I was ready. And I think I am doing ok. (crossing fingers. hopefully)

 

Of course my husband isn't the perfect guy. He himself is only 26 years old, and to become a father at that young age, and to be going to University cuz he didn't take it seriously when everyone else his age was, and one day he really wanted to make up for that time he wasted. I personally think it;s never too late to go back to school but anyway.

 

I know it's stressful and hard for him. And though sometimes I wish he would stop playing silly computer games where army men run around shooting eachother for hours on end (I thank god that it's the games he plays for hours rather than look at porn for hours. hehe. though if that happened I wouldn't die or anything. But hours looking at porn is a bit much for me myself) and I wish he'd take out the garbage a little more, but at the same time this is the first time he's actually enjoying school and going to classes and studying and doing his hw, and as long as I know he's getting what he needs to get done and stil lbeing there for my baby and me, I need to let him have his little relaxing private time too you know?

 

And like I said, I love doing things on my own. I always used to, I can be quite a solitary person. So though I love my husband to death and enjoy his company, sometimes I LIKE that he has his nights out with the guys, or a quick lunch with his female friends (I don't have a prob with that either by the way, and he always makes sure he introduces me to them too, or if I don't meet them he always mentions them, who they are, etc etc. I think that's nice, cuz if I didn't know about them, I don't know..that would be kinda uncomfortable to tell you the truth) or whatever. Cuz then I have time to myself (well the baby is here with me but you get the idea) and I can just chill or whatever. And that takes a load offf my hubby too. I think it would be stressful for a partner if their partner "needed" them constantly and couldn't do anything without them. Then again, that's me, I am sure there are people who love that kinda stuff. Different strokes for different folks right?

 

Whew, hope that wasn't TOO personal for you Trimmer. But you pretty much speculated correctly. Thanks for wanting to know though.

[Jersey Shortie]

You've taken a very real topic - Some Men's Interest in Porn and Its Effect on Their Relationship - and buried it under a landslide of prejudice, stereotyping, half-truths, un-truths and urban myths.

 

 

I think there is more truth there then men would like to admit. Men want women's respect and all that jazz but you want it while you are jerking it off to other women to put it crudely. Do men consider how what they do effects someone else in a relationship?

 

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I would expect that you would invalidate my feelings and tell me that obviously, I didn't love her because... and why did I even bother pretending, if..... Well, anyway, I know what I feel.

 

 

My purpose is not to invalidate your feelings.

 

 

Well, it's a good thing we had this whole discussion before our relationship got any more serious, eh, Jersey?

 

If I didn't feel so upset and frustrated with this topic I would have laughed at that.

 

 

 

You sound like someone who feels secure and whole as an individual; in other words, you don't look to your partner to fill a void, or "complete you." I'm going to guess that you felt pretty much this way even when you weren't in a relationship - that you didn't need to find a man to validate your value as an individual; you weren't looking for a partner to come along and soothe your insecurities.... Again, I'm just guessing, and I know I'm getting personal here, but would you be willing to comment on my speculations?

 

I think it is fairly obvious what point you are getting at Trimmer. I don't need a man to validate me. But all women want to know her man thinks she is pretty. But when he feels the need to validate that in other women, it feels hurtful and disrespectful. It just be nice if men could be loyal and liked real women. Two things that seem to escape men.

 

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Your insecurity is your problem. I'm female. I'm not insecure. I'm not insecure because I understand that men do not think we 'aren't good enough for them 'or that 'porn stars are better.'

 

 

Yes, my insecurity is my problem. But most women would not have the insecurities they have about not measuring up if men liked women for what women were. Not what they wished women to be with implants, lipo, and whatever other surgeries and stuff used to "enhance" women. And "enhance" is said sarcastically.

 

You, on the other hand, have constructed a major set of bogus beliefs that you cling to. Sadly, there's no truth to them. You make yourself miserable believing things that aren't true. That's your choice. You can blame the whole entire world for the problem but in the end the problem is in your head and it's to you to fix. And if you can't be bothered fixing it, then quit whining about it.

 

Sadly, there is more truth to what I say then not. I am trying to fix it. I would like a healthy relationship with a man but I feel that is quite impossible to happen because by the evidence men can't ever be satisfied with what they have and they obviously do not find everyday real women good enough for them. THey just settle for them.

 

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Again Ladybug..thank you for you well thought out and honest response. I do appreiate your posts. And I wish I saw things more like you, but obviously I guess I don't.

 

You said:

 

Yes we end up feeling insecure but ultimately I think it's cuz we let ourselves. I don't think these guys are out there to purposely make us feel insecure by their activities, it's how we take it and how we decide to feel insecure.

 

Well why shouldn't I feel insecure if he is appreciating other women? Or masturbating to images of women that I look nothing like? Or if he is looking at other women on the street then taking it back with him to jerk off too? Why shouldn't these things make me feel insecure? It makes me question where my place is in his life. It doesn't feel like a very good, safe, comfortable place. And I wonder why I should bother trying if he is never satisfied with what he has or always wishing for something better and bigger such as you find in porn.

 

If men liked real women with real boobs, women wouldn't be getting implants.

[Mr. Lucky]

But when he feels the need to validate that in other women, it feels hurtful and disrespectful. It just be nice if men could be loyal and liked real women. Two things that seem to escape men.

I wonder, Jersey, to help me put what you say in perspective, is there a similar (or analogous) way that ALL women disrespect and hurt men to the same degree? You seem determined to hold onto some universal truths regarding relationships - are there any others besides " by the evidence men can't ever be satisfied with what they have and they obviously do not find everyday real women good enough for them. " ?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Trimmer]

Jersey:

 

How does your boyfriend respond when you bring up your concerns about his viewing porn?

[ListenUp]

 

Again, they are jerking off to what the women are DOING.

 

if men liked women for what women were.

 

They do.

 

because by the evidence men can't ever be satisfied with what they have and they obviously do not find everyday real women good enough for them. THey just settle for them.

 

There is zero evidence for this. You have constructed a fiction that you cling to tenaciously. The world is not flat.

 

Well why shouldn't I feel insecure if he is appreciating other women? Or masturbating to images of women that I look nothing like? Or if he is looking at other women on the street then taking it back with him to jerk off too? Why shouldn't these things make me feel insecure?

 

Because if you were thinking rationally, you would comprehend that this is not about comparing you. It is not about you. It is not that he prefers them to you.

 

If men liked real women with real boobs, women wouldn't be getting implants.

 

Men do. If you would just spend a little time finding out what men actually think rather than assuming, you'd do a lot better. There have been plenty of 'should I get a boob job' threads on LS. Most of the men tell the women to NOT get boob jobs because fake boobs don't feel real.

[Pink_Tulip]

Because if you were thinking rationally, you would comprehend that this is not about comparing you. It is not about you. It is not that he prefers them to you.

 

Maybe if YOU had read this entire thread and thought rationally about it, you would see that Jersey has said several times that when the issue is brought up with her SO, he blows off her feelings and defends the porn. Any issue brough up in a relationship deserves to be treated with sensitivity and respect, whether its porn, leaving dirty underwear around, or staying out too late with friends.

 

All you have been successful in doing is proving Jersey's point that men are insensitive jerks who will justify and defend the porn to the end. It doesn't MATTER if it is caused by her insecurities. She has a right to have an opinion about things that are acceptable in their relationship. If he blows off her feelings, he is a jerk. Thats what this is about.

[Ladyjane14]

The problem with 'porn threads' is that more often than not, a woman will come in and want to ask 'The Guys'... "what's up with that?"

 

'The Guys' will dutifully answer to the best of their collective ability... and then the female OP will oftentimes discard their views, because she didn't find the answers to be satisfying to her already 'carved-in-stone' mindset.

 

So really.. is that about the men who have volunteered their time? Or is it about the female OP, who isn't making good use of the information she asked for?

[Pink_Tulip]

Sometimes, LJ. Some guys like Trimmer and James will take the time to answer posts fully and thoughfully. But there are always a few who come in and do the 'men like porn, deal with it.' Which, as I said, reinforce Jersey's idea that men will defend porn over caring about how it affects their SO.

 

I agree that Jersey has been difficult and less than forthcoming. Does that justify the 'get over it' attitude?

 

I am shocked at how men treat women who have a problem with porn. On the threads started by men discussing wives who won't have sex with them, women don't get on and tell the man to get over it. Far from it. But when a woman starts a thread about being hurt by porn, where are the men trying to understand? One? Trimmer is the only one who came in here and was understanding. Just him. How many men are on this forum? How many men jump into the no sex threads and throw a fit, make horrible accusations about women b/c of the no sex thing, how many men tell the OP to leave such a woman?

 

I am so tired of this double standard. Either we are consistent in demanding BOTH genders be open to listening to their partner's needs and concerns, or we tell BOTH to screw off and deal with it. JMO.

[Ladyjane14]

Sometimes, LJ. Some guys like Trimmer and James will take the time to answer posts fully and thoughfully. But there are always a few who come in and do the 'men like porn, deal with it.'

 

Sometimes "a cigar is just a cigar", Pink. The message from the "deal with it" set is simple... they don't understand why 2-dimensional porn should be a big deal to an S/O. In their view, it's "alone time".

 

We can extrapolate that information and USE IT. Just because it's not soothing to our psyche, doesn't mean it's not valid in our computations.

 

If it's not a big deal to some of these guys, and they can't understand why it should be a big deal to their S/O... they are in essence telling us that they don't view it as threatening to the relationship. IOW, they have NO PLAN to act out in real life. The message is... this isn't a realistic threat.

 

I for one, took great comfort in that kind of message back when it was ME who was in Jersey's shoes.

And while I don't expect her to interpret it in the very same way I did... she could at least be open to the possibility that some of these guys aren't "defending porn" so much as they're trying to answer her questions truthfully.

 

She's really only got three choices really:

 

1. She can either find a relationship in which BOTH parties adhere to the SAME unwavering view on this particular issue. There are indeed men in the world who reject porn wholesale. (And we shouldn't necessarily rule out relationships with like-minded women. Nothing wrong with that, IMO. )

 

2. Or she can adapt to another view where she and her partner find adaquate middle ground. This would require negotiation for both parties, so that the arrangement would be enthusiatically supported by both sides.

 

3. Or she can abstain from romantic relationships altogether. Some folks actually ARE happier when they forego this kind of partnership. It frees them to meet life ALWAYS on their own terms.

[Pink_Tulip]

Sometimes "a cigar is just a cigar", Pink. The message from the "deal with it" set is simple... they don't understand why 2-dimensional porn should be a big deal to an S/O. In their view, it's "alone time".

 

 

So then, you are perfectly OK with women telling men whose wives won't have sex with them to get over it? B/c a LOT of women don't see what the big deal is. I have many female friends who happily state they could go without sex for the rest of their lives. So if women don't see what the big deal is, why should they try to learn? Why should they be empathetic to their husbands needs, its just a physical act he can take care of, with porn even!

 

That is the point. If you agree with the above statement then we are in agreement. Both parties should just deal with whatever their partner is doing that they don't like- at least that is fair.

 

But if you believe women who aren't into sex should make an effort to learn why sex is important to men, and change that in the relationship, then you should also believe men should make an effort to hear how porn hurts their wives. Otherwise it is just the typical double standard of women sacrificing more in the relationship. To say men shouldn't make any compromises b/c its just porn is really invalidating and demeaning to women, IMO.

 

And please understand I say all this in the highest respect for you.

[Ladyjane14]

So then, you are perfectly OK with women telling men whose wives won't have sex with them to get over it? B/c a LOT of women don't see what the big deal is. I have many female friends who happily state they could go without sex for the rest of their lives. So if women don't see what the big deal is, why should they try to learn? Why should they be empathetic to their husbands needs, its just a physical act he can take care of, with porn even!

 

I don't think we're really talking about a problem of equal proportions.... But, in some respects the guys posting here ARE in fact hearing some of the 'just deal with it' message.

 

We might wrap it up in prettier paper... but telling a guy who hasn't had sex in 10 months that he ought to take his wife out on more romantic dates, and that he can't ASSUME his wife doesn't sincerely love him, or that the problem isn't permanent... aren't messages that are exactly soothing to him.

 

IOW, we often do tell a guy that his relationship isn't necessarily "threatened" by the problem of lop-sided libido and that he needs to get his butt back in there and work it out.

 

....Both parties should just deal with whatever their partner is doing that they don't like....

 

Yeah, we're in agreement if by "deal with it" you mean the OP needs to "work it out until it's fixed to the satisfaction of BOTH parties".

 

But if you believe women who aren't into sex should make an effort to learn why sex is important to men, and change that in the relationship, then you should also believe men should make an effort to hear how porn hurts their wives.

 

Sure.. that goes part and parcel with "working it out". Everybody ought to be cognizant of their partner's needs.

 

That said... what I'm having a problem with is an OP who posts for information and then doesn't USE it to effectively help herself solve a problem. Her porn-lovin' mate isn't hear looking for solutions... she is. That puts the onus of proactive negotiation on her.

 

These guys haven't said anything but what they feel. No harm, no foul. And we could all sit around wringing our hands over Jersey's inablity to cope with porn, or we can tell her to TAKE the data that's been offered to her, get in the game, and work until the problem is solved to her satisfaction.

 

In essence, the same thing we'd tell a guy who wasn't getting any.

[Pink_Tulip]

I see it totally different. I see people, myself included, telling men that they must make every effort to teach their wives the important of sex in a marriage, especially to men. I think a lot of those threads revolve around that theme, actually. Sure, there are a few 'take her out to dinner,' and 'buy her flowers,' but I think most people, at least on this forum, get that it is bigger than that.

 

In contrast, when a woman (and not just Jersey) posts that her H looks at porn and won't listen to her when she says she doesn't like it, people post the typical 'get over it' stuff. Why should she take that advice and work with it, when the problem isn't the porn, its her SO's refusal to compromise?

 

That is the issue I have with this thread. In every other issue, most logical people understand that when there is an issue in a marriage, no matter how small it might be to everyone else, to the person going through it, it is big. Simply saying 'deal' isn't going to help. It is hypocritical, in my opinion, to tell a woman this is something she must accept.

 

Now like I said, Jersey has been difficult and not open about her situation at all. But most posts have gone off on the tangent of, its not about you, its your insecurities. And while that may be true, I find it disheartening that most people on here are so quick to label her as such rather than have an ounce of compassion for what she is obviously dealing with at home. I think if you go back and read many of the no sex threads, there is a lot of compassion mixed with the advice. Why is that?

 

You say "Yeah, we're in agreement if by "deal with it" you mean the OP needs to "work it out until it's fixed to the satisfaction of BOTH parties". ;)" But where in this thread as anyone said she needs to work with her SO on a compromise? In fact, it hasn't been in here. It's all about 'you are insecure, men look at porn, deal.' If I am mistaken, please show me. This thread has gotten a bit long. Trimmer has asked her what her SO has said when she brought it up, and that I am anxiously awaiting an answer to.

[Ladyjane14]

I see it totally different. I see people, myself included, telling men that they must make every effort to teach their wives the important of sex in a marriage, especially to men. I think a lot of those threads revolve around that theme, actually. Sure, there are a few 'take her out to dinner,' and 'buy her flowers,' but I think most people, at least on this forum, get that it is bigger than that.

 

In contrast, when a woman (and not just Jersey) posts that her H looks at porn and won't listen to her when she says she doesn't like it, people post the typical 'get over it' stuff. Why should she take that advice and work with it, when the problem isn't the porn, its her SO's refusal to compromise?

 

We can't MAKE an S/O compromise, Pink. Look, I have HUGE love and respect for your posts.

But here is where we diverge in our thinking.... My belief is that the person who has a problem and wants a change is RESPONSIBLE for making it happen. Either they can negotiate with their partner fully in finding a solution or they can end the relationship and move on. What they can't do is FORCE the other person to readily adopt their point of view.

 

To my mind, when we use force on our TEAM-MATE, we shift the balance of power from EQUAL to putting the other person into a position where they've lost free will. Even God grants free will, so who are we to enforce it's loss upon a partner? We're facing a downward spiral of resentment and hard feelings within the relationship, which is then dependant upon an enforced ultimatum. At the end of the day, we've taken whatever our frustration was... and transferred it to the other person.

 

In every other issue, most logical people understand that when there is an issue in a marriage, no matter how small it might be to everyone else, to the person going through it, it is big. Simply saying 'deal' isn't going to help. It is hypocritical, in my opinion, to tell a woman this is something she must accept.

 

I don't think that's what has happened here. The fact is that if Jersey wants a porn-free relationship with an established porn user... something's got to give. Force will most likely result in loss of emotional intimacy. Negotiation on the other hand might get her what she wants. Problem is... she's not going to get what she wants if she's thoroughly entrenched in 'man-bashing'.

 

Successful negotiation requires understanding of the other person's position as well as your own. Jersey has persisted in rebuffing any understanding of the porn-user's position.

 

Now like I said, Jersey has been difficult and not open about her situation at all. But most posts have gone off on the tangent of, its not about you, its your insecurities. And while that may be true, I find it disheartening that most people on here are so quick to label her as such rather than have an ounce of compassion for what she is obviously dealing with at home. I think if you go back and read many of the no sex threads, there is a lot of compassion mixed with the advice. Why is that?

 

I think she's not receiving as much compassion as she might otherwise have received because she continues to "man-bash".

 

Look... I have no love of porn. I find it to be a drain on our society and I think it sends an absolutely HORRIBLE message to young people about what love and sex really are. If I had MY way... we wouldn't have a problem to be talking about, I can assure you of that!

 

But in the real world, we deal with what's in front of us.... and it's an exceptionally GOOD day when we can change something for the better in just our little corner of the world.

 

This young lady is going to have to decide what it is that SHE needs to do in order to improve her little corner. Beating up guys who've been honest with their opinions isn't going to solve her problems. I doubt it'll even make her feel any better.

 

You say "Yeah, we're in agreement if by "deal with it" you mean the OP needs to "work it out until it's fixed to the satisfaction of BOTH parties". ;)" But where in this thread as anyone said she needs to work with her SO on a compromise? In fact, it hasn't been in here. It's all about 'you are insecure, men look at porn, deal.' If I am mistaken, please show me. This thread has gotten a bit long. Trimmer has asked her what her SO has said when she brought it up, and that I am anxiously awaiting an answer to.

 

I posted this to her myself on post #98:

Toward that end, you might try a tool like POJA (The Policy of Joint Agreement). You'll find that over at marriagebuilders.com. The basic premise is... that in working together on a problem, you continue to negotiate until both partners reach "enthusiastic" agreement. In that way, you avoid building resentment.

[Mr. Lucky]

That is the issue I have with this thread. In every other issue, most logical people understand that when there is an issue in a marriage, no matter how small it might be to everyone else, to the person going through it, it is big. Simply saying 'deal' isn't going to help. It is hypocritical, in my opinion, to tell a woman this is something she must accept.

To me, this thread has two interlocked parts, the second of which sets Jersey apart:

 

1). Whether or not her SO looks at porn.

 

2). If he does, what that action represents in the context of her relationship.

 

The people that would answer "just get over it" see it as an issue of permission (or force, as ladyjane labels it). Their focus is on #1, both people are adults, they should be able to do what they want. They may look at drinking, gambling or other "adult" activities in a similar light.

 

The second point is obviously more complex. To me, the corresponding threads for men are not the "wife doesn't want sex" threads (though I see the overlap) but those pertaining to his jealousy (both current and retroactive) and insecurity. If a man posts that he has issues, big or small, when his faithful wife tells him about her sexual past or interacts with other men in social situations, what advice does he normally receive? I'd wager that it would touch upon the difference between real and imagined, thought and action or actual vs. perceived. And the application of that reasonable standard seems missing from Jersey's contention that men undermine all the other parts of a relationship by looking at porn.

 

Mr. Lucky

[Ladybug313]

Wow this thread is getting long!

I kinda agree with everybody, so this is really difficult..

 

On the one hand, I guess I would be in the "deal with it" pool Tulip mentions yes? Well I guess for me, I decided to "deal with it" in my own way but it doesn't mean everyone has to! I just thought maybe it would have been nice for Jersey to have a different perspective and try something that definitely worked for me.

Which gets me to thinking, and this could be a whole other thread I guess.

I don't understand why partners keep doing what their SO's are so uncomfortable with, even if they think it is the most irrational thing on the planet. Furthermore start doing it in hiding. With the whole "I am not

gonna change my ways just cuz YOU have such an irrational problem with it." etc etc. Personally if my husband had a huge issue of say my love for chocolate (trying to find the most irrational thing to be upset over..) and he hated me eating it, detested me looking into shop windows at it, just hated anything having to do with me and chocolate, though I would piss and moan and grumble about how ridiculous he's being, I'd still be able to give it up. It may take hard work but I would, merely because my husband hates it so much. (but hmm, maybe that would lead to resentment later down the line right? I don't know..)

It's how I kinda see the porn thing. On the one hand, I do have the "deal with it" thing but on the other hand, obviously it's killing the partner, why not just stop, if it's no big deal and thus "so easy to deal with?" Ah confusing.

 

As for the "women not getting enough sex " threads, I agree with LadyJane and Mr. Lucky in that it doesn't seem like a comparable issue...

 

Ok I gotta stop here. This has been a very thought-provoking thread.

[Pink_Tulip]

Ok, maybe there has been a misuderstaning, lol. LJ, I totally agree that you can't make someone else change at all. You change yourself, set up boundries for your relationship, and either your SO fits in or doesn't. Jersey can't change her partner, but she can express her pain at his porn and they can either come to a compromise, he can refuse to change and she can stay in the relationship and be miserable, or she can leave. I get that. My point was that it doesn't seem like that is the advice she, or any other porn poster gets. It is always pretty much the deal with sort. My posts were more in regard to posters, not Jersey, if that makes sense.

 

Mr. Lucky- Your post about the thread with RJ is a good case in point. As you can see in that thread, the man got compassion, with some advice. Although this porn thread has morphed into something more, IMO, most porn threads don't have a lot of compassion. That is my point. There is no, 'I am sorry you are feeling that way, can you compromise?' or 'I imagine this hurts you a great deal, what does he say about it?' It is a lot more of, 'I am a women, and porn doesn't bother me. You are just insecure.' or 'Men like porn, get used to it. At least he isn't cheating on you.' I find it hard to believe I am the only one who has noticed these differences.

 

Now for the record I will happily state that Jersey has made it very difficult for people to 'feel her pain' b/c she has been so difficult and has turned it in to a male bashing thread. Kudos to Trimmer for not getting sucked into that. But that doesn't change the fact that SOCIALLY we seem to automatically be accepting of porn and don't want to see that it can and is harmful in many instances. THAT is the point I am trying to make in all this. It sounds really good in my head, but when I try and type it out, I think I just end up not making sense.

[Trimmer]

...Jersey has said several times that when the issue is brought up with her SO, he blows off her feelings and defends the porn.

Actually, I must have missed this... I thought I was reading her posts pretty closely, because I was looking for any reference to her own situation. And I don't think this is just a minor semantic point: one of the difficult things for me about this thread (and perhaps one of the things that has made it difficult to find common ground) has been that it has all been presented as a theoretical exercise about "men" (not her man) and "women" (not herself), and this has forced us all to talk in generalities not specific to anything we know about Jersey's own situation.

 

The only reason I finally asked specifically about her boyfriend was a line I found in this post in another thread, where she said:

 

I know when my boyfriend looks at porn, I feel less like being close to him.

 

This was the first thing I remember reading where she spoke specifically of her own relationship, but still nothing about his reaction or any discussion they might have had about it... Other than that, my memory is that everything has been couched in terms of what happens between men and women. I don't have the motivation to go back through the 140 posts line by line, but that was my recollection, and until now, I was confident of it, because I remember waiting for something from Jersey with which I could empathize specifically, but it seemed that everything was being spoken of in general terms, splashed across men and women with a broad brush. I am prepared to be corrected, though...

 

I did make the point earlier that I found it ironic that I (a man) was encouraging her to talk about her specific feelings about her own situation, and she (a woman) seemed to be completely avoiding discussing it directly.

 

My basic point - we may find it hard to agree on general proclamations of "how things should be" between men and women, but we may find more common ground (and even empathy?) if we knew more about Jersey's specific situation. Even some guys who find porn to be "no big deal" in their own situation might be more empathetic and understanding if Jersey said "I have tried to discuss this with my BF and he won't..." or "...he tells me to just get over it without hearing me out," or "... he does it more just to bug me..." or something. For all I know (based on what I think I recall correctly) I'm not sure if she has discussed it with him... Again, I welcome a reference correcting me.

[Pink_Tulip]

Oh, I see how it is T. Make me go back through all the posts. I am still full from Thanksgiving too, you know! She hides snipits into her personal life between the men suck stuff. She also writes about herself and her situation in third person a lot of the time. Of course, I am assuming she is talking about herself, otherwise, what the hell is she talking about? Maybe I am wrong, maybe she is a nutjob. Who knows. I am on the side of giving her the benefit of the doubt, know what I mean?

 

OK. Here is what I got. Now I did it really quick, and there were a few quotes from Jersey that I was looking for and didn't find. But, I got some of what gave me that impression. Here we go. Jersey's stuff in italics.

 

"I am just over whelmed with teh things men want you to be "cool" with in the attempts to settle for the little scraps of affection he might toss your way."

 

"Why am I putting in all the work and effort to be with him and make a relationship work if all he really needs is to look at other women or pop in a porno?"

 

"I can't seem to find one man that doesn't look at porn."

 

"It might not seem like it but I do love men but men are ultimately very selfish."

 

"When the man you love jerks off to implanted girls who aren't over the age of 25, you begin to wonder where you fit in that and you know you don't fit."

 

"I don't expect to be the center of his life where he never notices other women. But we aren't just talking about noticing other women. We are talking about the seeking out of other women through porn, strip clubs or fantasies."

 

"I try to accept certain things about men but they usually leave me feeling sad and hurt at the end of the day and feeling like 2nd place. I don't know what the middle ground should be or how to find it. If I could answer your question I probably wouldn't post half the things I do post."

 

There was also one I remember where she said something about when you bring it up to them, they just defend, couldn't find it. That is why I believe this is what she is dealing with. Again, I could be wrong. But I doubt it.

[ListenUp]

Originally Posted by ListenUp

Because if you were thinking rationally, you would comprehend that this is not about comparing you. It is not about you. It is not that he prefers them to you.

Maybe if YOU had read this entire thread and thought rationally about it, you would see that Jersey has said several times that when the issue is brought up with her SO, he blows off her feelings and defends the porn.

 

Pink, I have read it and that's not her issue. Her issue is that, in her mind, men (ALL men not just hers) looking at porn do so because they prefer the women they are looking at to the women in their own lives. Perhaps you'd best reread the thread.

[Enchanting Emily]

I personally work in the adult sex industry. I know that alot of guys use porn in some form or another to get sexual gratification. But I think that most of the point of this discussion is the old "if it's good for the gander.." thought.

 

For example, if a man reads Playboy and expects his SO to be ok with that because, as many men have said, they aren't cheating on their SO because there's no personal contact. How would the same men feel if they found that their SO reads Playgirl. Would they then be ok with that as it's the same as them reading Playboy. Most women have found that the "typical" male does find this to be uncomfortable and wrong.

 

Another examplie, if a man goes to a strip club but tells his SO that she should be ok with it because he comes home to her every night. What if the same man finds that his SO was going to see Chip N Dale's dancers. Many men also find this offensive and wrong.

 

What I think the women want to know is why men don't expect women to be just as sexual, if not more sexual than them. More often than not men are the ones to have a double standard. I have found through personal experience that there are a lot of men that feel this behavior is acceptable. That it is ok for them to do something but when we women do the same thing it's wrong. However, there are also women who feel the same way. My point is you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you like something and expect your SO to be accepting of the behavior then you yourself have to be accepting of the SO's behavior in return. Yes there are people who believe in monogomy. But if you don't think that you SO should be using any form of porn for sexual gratification then you need to find a SO who's views are the same as yours. However, if you already have a strong love for your SO, which is more likely the case, then you need to establish good comunication. Try watching the SO while he or she is using the porn. Look for the reasons they are using the porn in the first place. Some are just using the porn because it fullfills a fantasy that they want. If this is the case then try fullfilling that fantasy yourself. For example say your SO loves watching bondage porn. Why not try handcuffing them to the bed and smacking their a** sometime. Many men would open up their fantasies to their SO if the SO would take interest in satisfying them. Some men have often told me that they don't talk to their SO about their fantasies as they are afraid it would scare them. Show them that you aren't afraid and are willing to try to satisfy their fantasies. While you may not agree with this statement it is my personal opinion.

 

Also I don't think that all men use porn because they prefer the women in the porn to the real women in their lives. Most of the time they are using porn to fulfill a fantasy that would not otherwise get fulfilled.

[Pink_Tulip]

Pink, I have read it and that's not her issue. Her issue is that, in her mind, men (ALL men not just hers) looking at porn do so because they prefer the women they are looking at to the women in their own lives. Perhaps you'd best reread the thread.

 

People don't make up generalizations for no reason. That is simplistic thinking. She obviously is dealing with this on a personal level which is why she is using the 'all men' statements. People do it all the time on this forum. Check out woggle and his 'all women' threads. I don't believe I have seen you on those threads saying anything.

 

If you want to believe she is making this up for no other reason than to irritate members of this forum, I guess that is your choice.

[Guest]

People don't make up generalizations for no reason. That is simplistic thinking. She obviously is dealing with this on a personal level which is why she is using the 'all men' statements. People do it all the time on this forum.

 

Check out woggle and his 'all women' threads. I don't believe I have seen you on those threads saying anything.

 

I have taken on many posters who generalize. And told them that they are being irrational and require counseling because the generalizations indicate that they suffer a problem within.

 

If you want to believe she is making this up for no other reason than to irritate members of this forum, I guess that is your choice.

 

I said nothing of the kind. You really must stop interpreting people completely wrongly, extrapolating, and assuming. Some of us are addressing the complaints she's stating in so many words; i.e. that men want porn women more than 'real' women. It's her perception; it's not based on reality, and she needs to be made aware of that.

[Mr. Lucky]

Mr. Lucky- Your post about the thread with RJ is a good case in point.

I often wonder why some feel a need to create a "shadow" opponent in a relationship. The porn queen that Jersey thinks her boyfriend desires and the 20-year ago lover of the RJ poster's wife almost seem like the same entity. Maybe personalizing them provides a convenient target for difficult and angry feelings regarding other parts of the relationship.

 

Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about

 

Mr. Lucky

[Guest]

i have posted on here a few times about my trouble with my husband and his porn "addiction". I am 24 and he is 30 and it has been a problem mfor the entire six years we have been married. I have become more understanding on the subject, by maturity and by having no choice. In my opinion most men do it but some do it more then others. I think both men and women are entitled to "personal time" as long as it does not interfere with their relationship with their SO. It has in mine, per my husband this is speculation. He say's my self esteem issues will ruin our relationship and I say his addiction will ruin ours. There is no budging on either side. The sad thing is that he cause my self esteem issues.

 

I did catch my H masturbating twice....once in the shower and I asked if he was thinking of me and he said "No". He said that masturbating was purely for sexual gratification, personal and selfish and he would not degrade me or our relationship by thinking of me in that way. That because he loved me he would not think of me a "tool" for SELF gratification. Did that hurt, yes and no! It hurt because I was available, willing and at that time had a very high sex drive, I wanted it several times a week or a day even. Now, I am not so interested and I know a lot of that has to do with my self esteem. i no longer initiate and I wonder if he is thinking about those women in the porno's. while we are making love. I did tell him I was sure several men thought of me when i masturbated and I hoped he remembered that when he was doing it.

 

That and other things are slowly destroying our relationship. He will not stop and has told me this.

 

I hope my comment about why he thought of other women helps.