Phone Sex, Porn and the Internet in Relationships

[Moose]

Hi Moose. I was wondering if you could help me understand some of your points. It seems to me that you are trying to convince jersey that porn is here and people will use it. I inderstand you have said you don't personally, and that you don't defend it, but that you accept it. But you also said, in your first post in this thread, I believe, that you were against premarital sex and that Jersey shouldn't be doing that.

 

What I am having a hard time reconciling is, you seem to be more blase about porn than premarital sex. It seems to me that porn is one of the causes of the sexual immorality that is so prevelent in society today. I am ok with premarital sex in a long term, commited relationship, but I do have a problem with the rampant, in your face sex everywhere, and a lot of that has come from the normalization of porn. So it is hard for me to understand how you can take a stand against premarital sex, but have the 'porn is here, deal with it' attitude. It seems to me, you should be just as against porn as you are premarital sex, if not more. Can you elaborate? Just curious about where you are coming from on the matter.

Sure. First off, yes, I'm against pre-maritial sex. I've done it too, but from that experience, I see how it's affected me, and I wouldn't anyone else to feel about themselves the way I felt.

 

Porn is here, and yes people will use it. I don't agree with it, I wish it never existed, and if I could I would rid the world of it, it's very damaging.

 

Look at what it's done to Jersey.

 

I'm writing in this thread, (and another one), against Jersey's generalizations and her refusal to understand that porn is a part of today's society. And unless she can change the WHOLE world's ideals, here battle against porn is futile.

 

There are other ways to deal with this, by her placing ALL MEN into the catagory she is, it's insulting to us and unhealthy for her.

[Pink_Tulip]

Ok, I see where you are coming from now, Moose. Thanks. But just out of curiosity, do you really feel Jersey's 'battle against porn' is futile? And not just Jersey's, but every woman who feels like she does. I agree with you that the 'all men' cr@p is just that. However, do you not think that if more women stood up and demanded that the men in their lives not pander to the porn industry, it would help?

 

I think we can all agree that men as a whole are not going to put the porn industry out of business on their own. It seems it used to be that women were the moral compass for society, but 'entertainment' like MTV has found that if they convince women that being a whore is cool, both men and women will spend more money on trash. And of course, it all goes back to money. You don't think it is possible to reel in some of this nonsense now, or do you see our future being filled with preadolescent girls flashing their privates ala Britney? I still have hope, albeit a small, small hope.

[Moose]

Thanks. But just out of curiosity, do you really feel Jersey's 'battle against porn' is futile? And not just Jersey's, but every woman who feels like she does.

Yes, I do. As a matter of fact, I know it's futile, but that's a whole different subject that belongs in a different thread.

However, do you not think that if more women stood up and demanded that the men in their lives not pander to the porn industry, it would help?

That'll only help/hurt the men in their lives, it wouldn't do any good with the underlining problem.

You don't think it is possible to reel in some of this nonsense now, or do you see our future being filled with preadolescent girls flashing their privates ala Britney? I still have hope, albeit a small, small hope.

All you need to do is look at the history of ANY civilization, and you'll find that their demise(s) where due to de-moralization.

 

That's where we're headed, and there's nothing you, I, or Jersey can do about it.......

[Pink_Tulip]

Yes, I do. As a matter of fact, I know it's futile, but that's a whole different subject that belongs in a different thread.

 

That'll only help/hurt the men in their lives, it wouldn't do any good with the underlining problem.

 

All you need to do is look at the history of ANY civilization, and you'll find that their demise(s) where due to de-moralization.

 

That's where we're headed, and there's nothing you, I, or Jersey can do about it.......

 

Ok, this is where I see the paradox in your message. I agree and understand that just about every great civilization fell through demoralization. Porn=demoralization. Reversing that trend=No porn. Yet you say that asking men to stop looking at porn will hurt them? You seem to advocate for morality (and religious values, I assume) on one hand, yet excuse the behavior of men b/c asking them to abstain from something harmful will hurt them? You say it is too late to do anything about it, but you tell Jersey to not have premarital sex. I guess my confusion is, I would think you either have a united front on all things considered amoral (or agasint your religious beliefs) or you just throw up your hands and give up on all counts. Because from my end, specifically targetting Jersey's premarital sex, yet excusing the behavior of men watching porn seems hypocritical and a bit sexit. Please explain your thoughts on this. I know, I am very nosey and curious.

 

Oh, and don't worry about hijacking this thread. It has taken so many turns already. Plus, Jersey's original question has been answered ad naseum, and she has no interest in hearing any of it. If she had, she would have at least acknowledged Zato.

[Trimmer]

Jersey, since you are going to apply this to your own relationship, are you anticipating that this will help develop it closer to your idea of a good, healthy relationship, based on the values that are important to you?

 

No but I don't think men care about good healthy relationships!

I asked about YOUR relationship, not "men"... Does YOUR man not care about having a good, healthy relationship? This should be your first focal point.

 

But just out of curiosity, do you really feel Jersey's 'battle against porn' is futile? And not just Jersey's, but every woman who feels like she does. I agree with you that the 'all men' cr@p is just that. However, do you not think that if more women stood up and demanded that the men in their lives not pander to the porn industry, it would help?

I think Jersey's "battle against porn" seems futile in the context of her life, because she lacks the ability to visualize the possibility of a more healthy relationship - either by developing her current one, or by leaving and ultimately persuing another one if this one can't be fixed.

 

Where I have hope is in fixing the world one family at a time - a man and a woman in a relationship talking and figuring things out together - not having to state demands and ultimatums; not having it be a battle where either I win or I lose. This railing against the whole class of men is an interesting and useful discussion as an abstraction, but Jersey has engaged her energy railing against the entire world that is outside her control, and specifically avoiding her own situation, over which she could choose to have control: either stay and try to make it better, or leave and seek something better. Why would she refuse to choose one of these? Too "hard"?

 

So I have hope for individuals in general - for couples who can have an open discussion, who do care about each other and care about finding that common ground. But while I wish Jersey well, I don't have much hope for her, because for whatever reason - whatever has happened in her life that has broken her - she has no hope, and no vision for anything better than tit-for-tat, getting even, and responding from anger.

[Pink_Tulip]

Hey T. I know I was a bit confusing, but when I was talking about the fight against porn and all, I am talking in a general context, hope that makes sense. I should have specified.

 

I have pretty much given up on Jersey. As I said earlier, if she was truly being intellectually honest and open to what we are saying, she would have, in the very least, acknowldeged Zato. That purposeful ignorance tells me all I need to know. I am much more interested in this discussion, and the views of you all, in a much broader sense.

[Jersey Shortie]

"As I said earlier, if she was truly being intellectually honest and open to what we are saying, she would have, in the very least, acknowldeged Zato. That purposeful ignorance tells me all I need to know."

 

 

What do you want me to say Pink Tulip? You want to sit there and call me ignorant because I didn't respond to something you would have or because I didn't respond the way you would have? That speaks more about you then it does of me.

 

I don't have a problem with Zato. That is great that he is the way he is. But the majority of men in my experience, aren't. And that is my problem. You want me to say what? "Oh okay, Zato doesn't do this, well problem solved! All my issues with porn are gone! Men are great! No need to worry any longer that I won't yet again get in a relationship with a man I care about only to learn that yes they like porn". Unless you are use to problems having overtly simplistic solutions like your average 30 min. sitcom comdey, that doesn't fly. I don't know about you, but for me life is more complicated then that. I acknowledge there are some men out there like Zato, but not the majority, and not one I have ever run into. Everyone makes the mistake that I have all this bitterness and anger that somehow I must hate men. Well I don't. I have really cared for guys but the porn thing is what hurts. The two are mutually exclusive. And everyone says.."just do this." It's easy for others to say that when it isn't a situation that hurts them.

 

So you go right ahead and keep calling me ignorant, just because you don't like how I respond to things. That isn't quite ignorance but closer to an over-inflated sense of self-importance.

[Moose]

Yet you say that asking men to stop looking at porn will hurt them?

No, I said that expecting them to stop looking at porn is hurtful to both parties.

 

Placing unrealistic expectations on a person is damaging to both involved.

 

1. It tends to build resentment in the person expected to do the impossible.

 

2. The person making the demands wouldn't be able to build trust with the person expected to change. (and it's futile to sit and wait for them to do so)

 

I say this because porn is all over this place we call Earth, in all forms, AND at all times.....

Because from my end, specifically targetting Jersey's premarital sex, yet excusing the behavior of men watching porn seems hypocritical and a bit sexit.

I'm not excusing porn watching at all. I'm making a point that it's un-avoidable, BUT watching porn and doing your best to substain from it are two different deals.

 

I don't know what Jersey experienced, evidently it was bad enough to curse all of mankind and into believing that ALL men, (if not the majority) partake in porn to purposely kick womankind farther down the preverbial pecking order.

 

It's simply not true.

 

I would lay down my very life for the woman who married me, and when I do something that hurts her, she knows full well she can confront me about it, and we will work on it together to bring about change.

 

I FIRMLY believe there is someone out there for Jersey who would do the same, however.........but this way of thinking is going to be the wall between them........

[Mr. Lucky]

I have pretty much given up on Jersey. As I said earlier, if she was truly being intellectually honest and open to what we are saying, she would have, in the very least, acknowldeged Zato. That purposeful ignorance tells me all I need to know.

I actually think Jersey is just some grad student's software program, designed to generate semi-random anti-male responses to key words in our posts. "Men", it replies "suck". "Porn", it replies "masturbate". "Relationship" inevitably generates "other women".

 

I'm going to test my theory out. Ready? Jersey...."men"

 

Mr. Lucky

[Pink_Tulip]

 

So you go right ahead and keep calling me ignorant, just because you don't like how I respond to things. That isn't quite ignorance but closer to an over-inflated sense of self-importance.

 

No Jersey, I didn't call you ignorant. I said you were purposefully being ignorant of the reality of what people are telling you. Translation- you are ignoring what everyone is telling you b/c it isn't what you want to hear. But you knew that. And now you are once again playing the victim by saying I am calling you names.

 

If you want a discussion about porn and relationships, this has been a great one. But all you seem to want is for everyone to acknowledge that poor you really got a raw deal. And if you want to go through life believing that, it will be a pretty miserable life. Success in life is a choice. Failure in life is a choice. No one likes change. You think everyone who has it good just got it through luck? You think Zato came to his conclusions with a lot of happy times? You can either choose to accept your relationship and come to terms with it somehow, leave and find someone better suited for you, or sit and be miserable, go off on every man who has tried to be nice to you and show you some compassion, and basically push away everyone who was on your side and pulling for you. It is obvious what you have chosen.

[Pink_Tulip]

No, I said that expecting them to stop looking at porn is hurtful to both parties.

 

 

So you don't believe that in most situations, a man can step back, see things through his wife's point of view, and let go of the porn? More importantly, what about raising our sons not to watch it to begin with? Do you have sons? Was this something you just assumed they would do and let it go? I brought this question up earlier here, but didn't get the response I was hoping for.

[Moose]

So you don't believe that in most situations, a man can step back, see things through his wife's point of view, and let go of the porn?

Where did you come to that conclusion? Of course he can. BUT, he can't rid himself of TV commercials, billboards, internet advertisements, and so on. So to expect a man to TOTALLY get it out of his mind, he'd have to be dead.

 

So he needs to find the root of the problem. Is he an addict, or is he insecure? He may need help to get out of it, but yes, a man can rid himself of his, "personal porn habit", and learn how to deal with the rest of the world's porn.

More importantly, what about raising our sons not to watch it to begin with?

ABSOLUTELY!

Do you have sons?

I have three sons, 19 / 16 / 13. None of them are involved in porn even with the resources they all have. Each of them have computers, sattelite dish, and even cell phones and I routinely scan all of them.

Was this something you just assumed they would do and let it go?

No, in our house we address these things head on.

 

We've been open with our kids about porn, sex, drugs, and alcohol from day one, and we have no fear about talking about it when it comes up at the dinner table.

[Mr. Lucky]

So he needs to find the root of the problem. Is he an addict, or is he insecure? He may need help to get out of it, but yes, a man can rid himself of his, "personal porn habit", and learn how to deal with the rest of the world's porn.

I wonder if, in the context of this thread, we are (and Jersey is) missing the point by awarding porn these supposed irresistable, addictive powers. If I take 10 people, lock them in a room for 30 days, shoot them up with heroin each day, I think we all agree that you'll end up with 10 drug addicts. Conversly, you could show me (and others in this thread) porn 'til the cows come home and I wouldn't care if I saw another image. So I just wonder about all this talk about porn addicts and addiction.

 

Would Jersey's life be different if her boyfriend was ignoring her building model airplanes instead of jacking off to starlets, assuming that the other qualities of their relationship was the same? What are you reactions to these two hypothetical couples:

 

Couple A - Has sex 3X week, both relatively happy, husband spends 3 hours a week online trading stocks.

 

Couple B - Has sex 3X week, both relatively happy, husband spends 3 hours a week online masturbating to porn sites.

 

Mr. Lucky

[Moose]

Couple A - Has sex 3X week, both relatively happy, husband spends 3 hours a week online trading stocks.

Nothing immoral about this at all. The SO would most likely accept this scenario seeing as trading stocks is/could be a lucritive form of income. This is bringing food to the table.

Couple B - Has sex 3X week, both relatively happy, husband spends 3 hours a week online masturbating to porn sites.

Immoral, unproductive, and unhealthy......

[Pink_Tulip]

Where did you come to that conclusion? Of course he can. BUT, he can't rid himself of TV commercials, billboards, internet advertisements, and so on. So to expect a man to TOTALLY get it out of his mind, he'd have to be dead.

 

 

I do see commercials, billboards, etc. to be pretty immoral these days, but I don't think of them as porn in the context of this discussion. For me, there is still a distinct difference between a man who is looking at traditional porn, and a man who sees a hot chick on a billboard and has a fantasy about her later. I think we all agree on that point, except Jersey. So when I was talking about women asking men to not look at/use porn, I was specifically talking about that. I agree that asking a man to never find a woman other than his wife attractive, or fantasize about anyone else, futile. I am sorry if I didn't make that clear.

 

And I agree about talking with kids about porn and such. Do you have daughters? One of my biggest fears is that my sweet, innocent daughter will start dating some teen boy who has been looking at porn since puberty. I know it all goes back to the values we instill in her, but it still scares me.

[Moose]

Do you have daughters?

Yep, 2.......(Moose points at avatar), yes that's us! 10 and 8 in that pic....

One of my biggest fears is that my sweet, innocent daughter will start dating some teen boy who has been looking at porn since puberty.

It's one of mine too. But like you said:

I know it all goes back to the values we instill in her, but it still scares me.

gotta have faith, and always, always, always be there for your kids.

[CynicalP]

And I agree about talking with kids about porn and such. Do you have daughters? One of my biggest fears is that my sweet, innocent daughter will start dating some teen boy who has been looking at porn since puberty. I know it all goes back to the values we instill in her, but it still scares me.

 

 

I dont think you'll should worry about the boys who are exposed to porn as much as keeping your daughter from idolizing women like Brittney, Paris or any of the other celebritutes that glorify sex to young girls. Also take great interest in on who your daughter befriends. Peers are the greatest influences on teenagers. If her friends are sleeping around they might encourage your daughter to do the same just so she doesnt feel like a outsider. Its seems being a Virgin is a fate worse than death today. It's tough enough of controlling the raging hormones at that age it just plain sucks that society glorifies sex into the end all and be all experience.

 

On a side note, somewhat related to this topic. Before I had access to porn ( shortly after my great discovery that my genitals did more than just excrete urine ) I fullfilled my sexual fantasy' adequately enough with my older sister's collection of glamour and cosmopolitan magazines. You would be surprised how similiar those magazines are to a today's maxim. Interesting to think that even magazines gear to women depict the female models in the same seductive and alluring poses. So unless western society adopts the islamic ideal that women should be completely covered I dont think you'll have a snowballs chance in hell to eliminate the sources of porn.

[Jersey Shortie]

No, I said that expecting them to stop looking at porn is hurtful to both parties.

 

Placing unrealistic expectations on a person is damaging to both involved.

 

And I think mne expecting women to feel good and confident in their relationships when men are actively seeking out other fantasy like images of other women is both hurtful and damaging to women and men. Talk about unreaslitic expectations. But men put porn and women in it in a high regard. You tell women you don't "expect that" in reality, yet you all wish you had it. That is not a nice message men are sending. It is a self-involved one.

 

 

 

I actually think Jersey is just some grad student's software program, designed to generate semi-random anti-male responses to key words in our posts. "Men", it replies "suck". "Porn", it replies "masturbate". "Relationship" inevitably generates "other women".

 

I'm going to test my theory out. Ready? Jersey...."men"

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

That's the first things said on this thread that made me laugh. It was cute.

 

 

 

No Jersey, I didn't call you ignorant. I said you were purposefully being ignorant of the reality of what people are telling you. Translation- you are ignoring what everyone is telling you b/c it isn't what you want to hear.

 

Please Pink Tulip, you can try to phrase it anyway you want but the outcome is the same. Disagreeing doesn't mean I am ignoring. People really can't believe their opinions are so omipotent that any form of disagreeing with someone obviously means they are ignoring them.

 

 

 

But all you seem to want is for everyone to acknowledge that poor you really got a raw deal.

 

No. What I would like for a change is men to aknowledge how damaging porn is to women. But they are too busy looking at it to consider real women's opinions. So I don't even see why men bother with relationships at all.

 

 

"....go off on every man who has tried to be nice to you and show you some compassion, and basically push away everyone who was on your side and pulling for you.

 

Compassion? All I see is an understanding that at the end of the day most men are going to look at porn and the best a woman can hope for is she be the happy recepticle when he is ready to release his excitment from said porn. After all, that is all women are to men obviously through their behavior. Porn makes me question how much men respect and value women. Because it can't be very much.

 

 

Would Jersey's life be different if her boyfriend was ignoring her building model airplanes instead of jacking off to starlets, assuming that the other qualities of their relationship was the same? What are you reactions to these two hypothetical couples:

 

 

No. My reaction wouldn't be teh same. Why? Because one envolves model planes and the other invovles other women. Unless he starts humping the model planes, that isn't a problem. These two are not even comparable. It's like when men say how porn is to them what shopping is to women. Expect with shoppin there are no naked men around who out rank your boyfriend and will do anything you want so that you can make them your idealized fantasy.

 

 

Seriously, I don't know why men bother with relationships. Other then probably to have a real person cook for them maybe. Men seem more concered with defending their need for porn then understanding how hurtful it is to women.

[Pink_Tulip]

No. What I would like for a change is men to aknowledge how damaging porn is to women. But they are too busy looking at it to consider real women's opinions. So I don't even see why men bother with relationships at all.

 

Really? Thats all you want?

 

You see, I actually believe some of what you say, and definitely understand. You lose men with the "it's a man" thing.

 

So after I have realized exactly what I want in my life- I would look at porn and see how non-intimate is was and it would make me feel disgusted. I know everyone is different and it seems like jersey feels very similar to how I feel. Although I am single. Its ok though.

 

I'm not excusing porn watching at all... Porn is here, and yes people will use it. I don't agree with it, I wish it never existed, and if I could I would rid the world of it, it's very damaging.

 

(emphasis mine)

 

Cuz it seems to me you got it. And that was from a quick skim across the last few pages, I am sure I could find more. You say this is all you want, for men to acknowledge that porn is not good in relationships. And here you have it, yet you have not acknowledged it at all. Hence my comment about you ignoring what doesn't fit your agenda.

 

Also, I take great exception to you saying no one is being compassionate to you. Again, you are either being intellectually dishonest in this discussion, or are ignoring comments to fit your agenda. I personally took on two posters who attacked you, and Trimmer has gone out of his way to understand your pain and talk with you about it. If you don't consider that compassion, I really don't know what to say. But as you can see, the angrier and more volitile you become, the thinner that compassion wears.

[Pink_Tulip]

Moose- five kids between 19 and 8? Wow, give your wife a high five for me! And that is a beautiful picture. I hope your family, and everyone here, has a wonderful Christmas! :love:

[Moose]

Moose- five kids between 19 and 8? Wow, give your wife a high five for me! And that is a beautiful picture. I hope your family, and everyone here, has a wonderful Christmas! :love:

WHAT? Why just her???? Joking......

 

She does deserve it, 5 kids, still 102lbs and just as sexy as always....no phone sex, porn or internet infildelity needed here!

[Mr. Lucky]

Other then probably to have a real person cook for them maybe.

 

Lately, I seem to have a better chance of getting great sex at home than I do of getting a good, home-cooked meal

 

Ah well, one challenge at a time...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Pink_Tulip]

Lately, I seem to have a better chance of getting great sex at home than I do of getting a good, home-cooked meal

 

Ah well, one challenge at a time...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Well, why don't you make the good, home cooked meal, and let her take care of the 'rest?' Just make sure to also make a dessert, something made out of chocolate, stuffed with chocolate, covered with chocolate, and some chocolate drizzled on the top. Works for me!

[Mr. Lucky]

Well, why don't you make the good, home cooked meal, and let her take care of the 'rest?' Just make sure to also make a dessert, something made out of chocolate, stuffed with chocolate, covered with chocolate, and some chocolate drizzled on the top. Works for me!

For some reason, I'm getting the idea you like chocolate . Works for me too!

 

Mr. Lucky

[Moose]

For some reason, I'm getting the idea you like chocolate . Works for me too!

 

Mr. Lucky

I think ALL women love chocolate!! Is like their, "fix',.... some even replace sex with it sometimes!!