Phone Sex, Porn and the Internet in Relationships

[Pink_Tulip]

I have taken on many posters who generalize. And told them that they are being irrational and require counseling because the generalizations indicate that they suffer a problem within.

 

No, actually you say:

 

[/quote=Guest]

Lame. Seriously. Your insecurity is your problem. I'm female. I'm not insecure. I'm not insecure because I understand that men do not think we 'aren't good enough for them 'or that 'porn stars are better.'

 

You, on the other hand, have constructed a major set of bogus beliefs that you cling to. Sadly, there's no truth to them. You make yourself miserable believing things that aren't true. That's your choice. You can blame the whole entire world for the problem but in the end the problem is in your head and it's to you to fix. And if you can't be bothered fixing it, then quit whining about it.

 

Calling posters names and being rude to them is, shockingly, not going to make them come around to your way of thinking. There isn't a poster on this thread who hasn't told Jersey she is wrong, but we managed to do it without the name calling and the condescending attitude. Funny how you just 'know' what she thinks, but when I suggest she is in pain and generalizing out of anger, I am assuming, and doing so incorrectly.

 

But I concede. Continue with your advice, I am sure Jersey will be open to it. I will not interupt anymore.

[Pink_Tulip]

I often wonder why some feel a need to create a "shadow" opponent in a relationship. The porn queen that Jersey thinks her boyfriend desires and the 20-year ago lover of the RJ poster's wife almost seem like the same entity. Maybe personalizing them provides a convenient target for difficult and angry feelings regarding other parts of the relationship.

 

Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I wonder that myself. Especially the RJ thread, I can see being a bit jealous, but to that point I do not get. He needs help. With Jersey I don't understand why she stays in a relationship with someone so fundamentally different than her. I guess we'll just keep wondering, huh?

[ListenUp]

Calling posters names and being rude to them

 

What on EARTH is your problem? I called no names whatsoever, nor was I rude.

 

It doesn't seem that you're reading what we're writing. Chill.

[Trimmer]

She hides snipits into her personal life between the men suck stuff. She also writes about herself and her situation in third person a lot of the time. Of course, I am assuming she is talking about herself, otherwise, what the hell is she talking about? Maybe I am wrong, maybe she is a nutjob. Who knows. I am on the side of giving her the benefit of the doubt, know what I mean?

My question, too - what is she talking about? Is she talking about her frustration with men as a group, or is there some personal issue going on? Like you, I assume she has some issue that is a personal problem, but I very much differ from you in that I don't think we can assume what it is from her posts, when she puts everything in the context of generalizations, and broad second or third person examples.

 

Maybe this is a man/woman communication difference, but do you see how you explained that she "hides snipits" of her personal life in her explanations, and that therefore you are "assuming" that she is talking about herself? For me, I don't read minds. When she says, "men always defend porn", that certainly may be what is happening in her life, but it doesn't equate to "my boyfriend always defends porn," and if that is what is happening, she should tell us in concrete terms. Don't we all agree that at a minimum, clear communication will be a necessary component of any solution?

 

Now, let's say I'm wrong, and we can actually "assume" her second and third person accounts are descriptions of her personal life. Then I would describe her relationship with her boyfriend as follows:

• He looks at porn;
  
• He notices other women, but we're not just talking about that, we're talking about porn, strip clubs, and fantasies;
  
• He's ultimately very selfish;
  
• He expects her to "be cool" with an overwhelming number of things (which she must not agree with, because it overwhelms her...);
  
• He only tosses scraps of affection her way;
  
• She puts all the work and effort into the relationship;
  
• He leaves her feeling sad and hurt, and feeling like she's second place;

Now, those things are taken from just the few quotes you gave above; here are some more from other posts in this thread:

• He would freak if she had phone sex or whatever she needed to meet her verbal needs;
  
• He defends porn as a great, wonderful thing;
  
• He tells her "oh, you're just insecure";
  
• He has a low opinion of women;
  
• Since he jerks off to implanted girls who aren't over the age of 25, she wonders where she fits in, and actually, knows that she doesn't fit;
  
• he doesn't try to be loyal any more then he has to (it's "a fact," she said.)

Now, I've got to say, if this is all true, and if she has been describing her own relationship (albeit, in this roundabout way), then geez - this guy is a jerk! Jersey, get out and find a better man! There's got to be someone better than this guy, he sounds like the pits!

 

But I'm being a little absurd, here, aren't I? Of course, probably not everything she says is to be taken literally as applying directly to her relationship, right? OK, then, how do we pick and choose to understand her particular situation? Do we assume? Is it obvious?

 

My whole point is, I think we can't assume what we know about Jersey's personal situation at this point. Look at her responses to direct questions asking about her experiences in her own relationship:

 

From Trimmer: "And I wish I could feel some kind of a connection with you as an individual, but you have given me nothing to go on - you have hidden behind the "general hypothetical case", and have not shared anything of yourself. .."

 

I can't seem to find one man that doesn't look at porn. Porn is degrading to women, so it makes me wonder if men even like women. Porn is about perfect women who beg for sex with men, so it makes me wonder if I am attractive enough. Porn is about 18 year olds with implants, which supports my insecurities. I wonder if men really value women or just care about them spreading their legs. I wonder why men even bother with relationships since it obviously is not a satsifying experience with them.....

 

(Incidentally then, is she in a relationship, or is she trying to find a man?)

 

What exactly am I worrying about that "might" happen?????? I am talking about something that is already happening, the fact that men still seek out other women, while in a relationship.

 

It's all about what's happening out there between men and women, not about her own relationship.

 

So, I agree, it seems clear that this is somehow a very personal issue, but than wouldn't you expect that if she were experiencing it personally, that she would immediately respond with "this is what's happening between my boyfriend and me..." What would be holding her back?

[brodipherus]

Why do people feel like looking at porn while in a relationship is okay, but having phone sex with someone you don't know or talking sexually with strangers over the internet is off limits? Porn is a visual stimulator used to get off to other people. Phone sex and internet chatting is a verbal stimulator used to get off to other people. As long as you aren't taking it any further then just getting off sexually, I don't understand why there is this double standard that porn is okay but other sexual outlets aren't.

 

If my boyfriend is going to look at porn because he is more visual, I think I have the right to use more verbal outlets to get off on because I am a woman and more verbal.

is he looking at porn interacting with live people or is it a recording?are you interacting with people,or is your verbal a recording.if one involves interaction with other people,and one does not,there is a tremendous difference and no "double standard"

[Ladyjane14]

I often wonder why some feel a need to create a "shadow" opponent in a relationship. The porn queen that Jersey thinks her boyfriend desires and the 20-year ago lover of the RJ poster's wife almost seem like the same entity. Maybe personalizing them provides a convenient target for difficult and angry feelings regarding other parts of the relationship.

 

Interesting thought, particularly as it applies to the RJ thread. In that particular case, the jealousy seems so irrational in comparison to all the positives in the relationship.

 

Something to ponder on... :bunny:

[Ladyjane14]

i have posted on here a few times about my trouble with my husband and his porn "addiction". I am 24 and he is 30 and it has been a problem mfor the entire six years we have been married. I have become more understanding on the subject, by maturity and by having no choice.

 

You really do have a choice in this, Guest.

 

You know, there are quite a few people who insist upon a porn-free life. These folks consider porn to be a deal-breaker, and they prioritize it amongst their boundaries in a similar manner as one might prioritize faithfullness or fiscal responsibility.

 

Take me, for example... I'm a person who almost NEVER will throw out an ultimatum. But when it comes to "deal-breakers", I can't stay in the relationship unless these boundaries are upheld. So... if my boundary for fidelity is crossed, I'm unable to stay in the marriage, thus the ultimatum is presented. It's a last-ditch effort to save the relationship, and I'm prepared to accept the results either way at that point.

 

This is similar to the way some women prioritize a boundary on porn. It's not something we see everyday here at LS, but it's not necessarily wrong either. You have a right to a porn-free life if that's your priority.

 

I say all this to you, so that you will see that you DO have a choice... and hopefully you'll find it empowering to know it.

 

Because sometimes... your priority will turn out to be the man in question, rather than the porn. When that's the case, it's possible to redirect your focus onto your priority. Once you've done that, you begin to see that the problem is HIS, and not yours.

 

In a case where the porn has interfered with the intimacy of the primary relationship, and when your priority is decidedly the man... you've got quite a fight on your hands. But when you disengage your emotions from the problem, you can stop internalizing it and making it about you. He carries his own bags at that point, and YOUR burden is lifted. Your pain is lessened, because it's NOT about you.

 

The sad thing is that he cause my self esteem issues.

 

That's not about him and it's not about porn... that's about you. You can choose to value yourself, to give yourself credit for all that is good, wonderful, and unique about YOU.

You have within you the ability to empower yourself... and not to wait around for others to do it for you. You do this through self-validation. And if there are aspects that you don't like about yourself, you dedicate your efforts to repairing them, and you give yourself credit each time you make some headway.

 

I'm not saying that having a respectful mate, who takes the time to validate you isn't a great thing. But validation from a mate should probably be like dessert, something wonderful and sweet, maybe even occasionally necessary.... but NOT your meat and potatoes.

 

You might consider reading a copy of The Five Love Languages. I think maybe you'll get some tips from it on ways both you and your husband can improve upon "validating" each other. Because honestly... it's a terrific feeling when you're able to appreciate each other like that.

 

I have to admit... I've got some work to do on that "meat and potatoes" bit myself. I enjoy the validation I get from my husband a little TOO MUCH sometimes.

 

I did catch my H masturbating twice....once in the shower and I asked if he was thinking of me and he said "No". He said that masturbating was purely for sexual gratification, personal and selfish and he would not degrade me or our relationship by thinking of me in that way. That because he loved me he would not think of me a "tool" for SELF gratification. Did that hurt, yes and no! It hurt because I was available, willing and at that time had a very high sex drive, I wanted it several times a week or a day even. Now, I am not so interested and I know a lot of that has to do with my self esteem. i no longer initiate and I wonder if he is thinking about those women in the porno's. while we are making love. I did tell him I was sure several men thought of me when i masturbated and I hoped he remembered that when he was doing it.

 

You might be getting in your own way here a little bit. If you want sex with your husband... why would you keep yourself from initiating it?

That's kind of like snipping off your own nose to spite your face. Because you're not getting what you wanted.

 

He will not stop and has told me this.

 

Then you have a decision to make. You can either prioritize the porn or the man. Once you've arrived at your choice... you follow through.

 

In my case, I'm no fan of porn, but it's not a deal-breaker for me either. I ended up sitting down at the PC with my husband for hours at a time, observing what he found to be soooo interesting.

 

It ended up being a 'whole lot of nothing' to my mind. My fear of it as a threat dissipated, and I chose instead to improve the relationship and my own sense of self-esteem within it.

 

As the relationship improved, it seemed to me that my husband just wasn't as interested in the porn. And these days, if he looks... I'm unbothered by it. My attitude is more like "good for you, if you're happy... I'm happy".

 

Granted, that's not a solution that would work for everyone. Some gals don't have such a nice guy as mine. But that's what worked for me.

[Pink_Tulip]

So, I agree, it seems clear that this is somehow a very personal issue, but than wouldn't you expect that if she were experiencing it personally, that she would immediately respond with "this is what's happening between my boyfriend and me..." What would be holding her back?

 

I agree with everything you say 100%, and as I said before, I could be totally wrong. But I guess we all have a choice to make about why Jersey is so emphatic in her opinions. This has been an interesting thread, and if we choose to see Jersey as someone who really is going through a tough time, it makes the conversatin real. If we choose to see Jersey as someone on here who just wants to man bash, it turns into a pissing match with a bunch of mean spirited posts. I prefer the more intellectual type of discussion myself, which is why I choose to see this as a personal issue.

 

Even if Jersey is full of it, what she posts still applies to many, many women, as evidenced by the few who have come on here to share their story. So, excluding Jersey from the equation, we can still choose to have an intellectual discussion on topic. That is why I choose to believe she is coming at this from a personal angle, and know that even if she isn't, this thread is still relevent.

 

If Jersey really is experiencing this in her relationship, why isn't she more forthcoming? I can't speak for everyone, but I know when I was younger I often talked about my 'friends' problems, or myself in the third person to distance myself from the pain of whatever I was dealing with. Telling people publicly you are in pain can leave you very vulnerable, and force you to feel what you are talking about. Maybe thats it, maybe she just has a unique writing style, maybe she is putting us all on. That one, only Jersey can answer.

[Mr. Lucky]

Originally Posted by Guest

i have posted on here a few times about my trouble with my husband and his porn "addiction". I am 24 and he is 30 and it has been a problem mfor the entire six years we have been married. I have become more understanding on the subject, by maturity and by having no choice.

 

You really do have a choice in this, Guest.

 

You know, there are quite a few people who insist upon a porn-free life. These folks consider porn to be a deal-breaker, and they prioritize it amongst their boundaries in a similar manner as one might prioritize faithfullness or fiscal responsibility.

I was struck by Guest's comment that porn has been a problem during her entire 6-year marriage Perhaps this applies to Jersey's situation also. What was Guest's husband and Jersey's boyfriends porn "consumption" during the nascent stages of their relationships? I doubt that husband's addiction started the day they returned from the honeymoon and I wonder how Jersey's boyfriend acted towards other women - both real and multimedia - when they first got to know each other.

 

Specifcally, do women think that as men fall in love with them, they will lose any active interest in porn that they have? And, is that a reasonable expectation?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Ladyjane14]

Specifcally, do women think that as men fall in love with them, they will lose any active interest in porn that they have? And, is that a reasonable expectation?

 

I would hope they don't. In fact I know a woman who's been married 25 years, and she's said as much..."I knew who he was when I married him". She didn't expect him to change... even though she REALLY hates porn.

 

But on the other hand, I don't think men are ALWAYS as forthcoming as they could be on the issue in the beginning of the relationship. When you account for the infatuation stage, it's unlikely that pornography was in the forefront of the relationship at the time.

 

AND.... there can be a certain amount of escalation in some situations. IOW, the guy looks at a little porn here and there in the early years, but later on he's spending an inordinate amount of time and energy on it. This would represent a CHANGE in his porn use.

[Trimmer]

P_T - I agree with you, too. I have definitely been assuming that the conversation is real, and that Jersey is having some personal difficulty with this in her own life. I guess my thing is, I feel like I have already exhausted what I have to offer her, speaking in the intellectual, third-person, hypothetical case. My take is, find someone whose values and morals complement yours and communicate clearly about those before you move forward in a committed relationship.

 

Beyond that, I can't defend the broad class of "men" who choose porn over their partners, or who have imagined or fantasized about other women while in a relationship, and in fact, according to the boundaries that she is comfortable with, I fail the latter test. I've got no problem with that, and I accept and understand that she feels very differently. No problem, because as long as we each communicate with our prospective partners, we both have the potential to create and cherish good, fulfilling relationships.

 

So what's left for me is that even though her boundaries and mine are very different, I still hear her anguish, and I'm trying to find a way to empathize with that. However, empathy requires some kind of personal connection. When I interact with you or Mz Pixie or dgiirl or most anyone else on here, we achieve that personal connection by sharing our specific, first person experiences. This happened to me, then I said this, then my bf/gf/so/spouse did that, and I felt this way about it... And while still being completely anonymous to each other, I feel like we still make a sufficient personal connection that I can feel empathy.

 

I feel like Jersey is hiding that - missing out on it? - by not sharing her personal experience in this area, and since the theoretical, intellectual discussion between Jersey and me has pretty much been covered (I feel like I understand her points and her feelings about men, and my efforts to explain myself to her haven't really altered her position), I've pretty much run out of steam.

 

It's not at all that I wish to discredit her by challenging her: "tell us your personal experience or else..." I'm trying to find any hook, any way in, any personal connection where I could nurture some empathy for her personally, in spite of our disagreement in discussing the general case...

[Pink_Tulip]

T, you get a gold star in my book for your patience and compassion with Jersey. I think as far as she is concerned, we just have to wait to see if she comes back and continues- or in many ways, starts- a dialogue. I wasn't just talking about Jersey, tho. I think assuming this is a real problem in general validates the entire thread, even when we were off topic.

 

I do have a question for you and LJ tho, and anyone else who cares to answer. If I remember correctly, you both have kids. Are they boys? If so, what kind of a discussion about porn are you going to have with them as they approach teen age years? As I said earlier, when I was a teen, all there was was playboy. I don't like it, but it really isn't that damaging, IMO. Now, with internet porn, I am very worried. I agree with LJ 1000% about how damaging it can be, setting up false notions of reality, false expectations, and objectifying women. Are you going to accept that your boys are going to look at it? Are you going to take preventitive measures- like filters? Have you thought about this yet? My son is only 8, so I have some time, but I do worry!

[Mr. Lucky]

Well, I'll take the first shot at your question, as I have 3 well-spaced sons - 27, 19 and 8 years old (also 18 yr old daughter). My approach is two fold -

 

- No porn in the house (not a hardship for me as I've stated before, no big appeal to me). All computers are either filtered or password protected; DirecTV channels are locked out. Like termites, try and be proactive to keep from getting a foothold.

 

- Ongoing discussion about pop culture, media, freedom of speech, men, women and....porn. Why does it exist? Who is in favor of it, who is against it? Why do people feel so strongly about it? What other aspects of society does it tie into? Who are its victims? Why do they allow them selves to be victimized? Etc...

 

I've tried to point them towards three potentially conflicting agendas -

 

- Porn is an adult activity that has no overt place in a family setting

 

- Like other adult activities - smoking, drinking, gambling - porn can have a life-destroying downside

 

- Mom and Dad, through their behavior, model the fact that porn is not a part of their lives

 

I've had some specific interactions with the boys that I'll relate if they turn out to be germane...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Trialbyfire]

I'll agree that porn does not belong in a family setting but overall, do I have issues with men looking at porn? Not really unless it becomes an obsession. Vid porn is at a distance with no interaction or potential of emotional attachment. Phone sex or IM requires interaction between two live bodies. Once there's interaction, there are possibilities of more. It's the more that concerns me.

 

For myself, porn does nothing for me. I've viewed it once and that was more than enough. I'll just shrug it off as another guy thing, similar to an interest in football. Ho hum...

[Anka]

Dear God, is this a debate about whether phone/cyber/porn is acceptable in a M?

 

My fiance and i wach porn together sometimes, and it doesnt bother me when he looks at it when im not here.

But phone sex and cyber sex, ummmmm, its cheating. You are interacting with another person in a intimate way and that can damge your R.

 

NOT acceptable. Me and fiance started off online and on the phone, and we did those things together, so i would feel cheated on if he did this with someone else.

No good could come of this.

[Pink_Tulip]

Mr. Lucky, I agree with everything you have said, and plan similar talks with my children. Very well stated.

 

Trial- I have no problem with adults who enjoy porn. My question was concerning teenage boys. I think porn, at least the stuff on the internet, not playboy, can be very damaging. I can't imagine any parent who'd want their 16 year old daughter to date a boy who regularly looks at that stuff!

 

Anka- this thread has gone off in so many directions, lol. But I agree with what you wrote, assuming both partners agree. Like I said, I have no issue with what consenting adults do in their marriage.

[Jersey Shortie]

I do not even know where to begin to reply to anything since I haven't been able to get back to post on this thread in a couple days. But this thread as taken so many tangents.

 

 

If my boyfriend is going to look at porn I am going to have cyber sex and phone sex. It means nothing. It does not mean I am going to leave him for someone else just like he isn't going to leave me for a porn star. This is what has to be done. Otherwise, He gets his fill of other women while I play the good loyal little girl. Well bleep that if he can't be loyal I shouldn't have to be either. If he is going to look at porn, I am going to find a way to even it up.

[blind_otter]

is he looking at porn interacting with live people or is it a recording?are you interacting with people,or is your verbal a recording.if one involves interaction with other people,and one does not,there is a tremendous difference and no "double standard"

 

I agree, brodipherus. Cool screen name.

[brodipherus]

I agree, brodipherus. Cool screen name.

 

Actually brodipherus is my real name, but thank you.Blind_otter is a cool screen name, too.I've read some of your previous posts and they seem well written.

[Mr. Lucky]

This is what has to be done. Otherwise, He gets his fill of other women while I play the good loyal little girl. Well bleep that if he can't be loyal I shouldn't have to be either. If he is going to look at porn, I am going to find a way to even it up.

"I am going to find a way to even it up" ...so that you can be...what? The leader in the "trashing our relationship" contest?

 

How does it benefit you to indulge in (or even escalate) the same behavior that led you to post here in the first place?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Trimmer]

If my boyfriend is going to look at porn I am going to have cyber sex and phone sex.....

Jersey, have you talked with him about it, and how has he responded? Is he aware of your feelings about it?

[magichands]

Actually brodipherus is my real name,

Are you famous? I think you'll find that even people like Kylie and Madonna actually have more than one name. Besides, I'm not really sure that brodiwhatsit will catch on (it's kind of hard to spell, you know - especially in a world that's already lexically challenged).

 

Do you have a driver's licence? Or a passport? You might have just sustained a nasty knock on the head, that's all. But luckily for you there is almost always a paper trail. I hope you find yourself.

I've read some of your previous posts and they seem well written.

First impressions can be deceiving.

[Ladyjane14]

I do have a question for you and LJ tho, and anyone else who cares to answer. If I remember correctly, you both have kids. Are they boys? If so, what kind of a discussion about porn are you going to have with them as they approach teen age years?

 

I'm with Mr. Lucky on that.... boundaries and education. There's NOTHING that I won't talk to my kids about. I might be red in the face trying to explain some things, but that won't stop me from wading right in and discussing things frankly.

 

 

 

If my boyfriend is going to look at porn I am going to have cyber sex and phone sex. It means nothing. It does not mean I am going to leave him for someone else just like he isn't going to leave me for a porn star. This is what has to be done. Otherwise, He gets his fill of other women while I play the good loyal little girl. Well bleep that if he can't be loyal I shouldn't have to be either. If he is going to look at porn, I am going to find a way to even it up.

 

You have got to be kidding us, right?

[magichands]

It's all about equality in relationships.

There's NOTHING that I won't talk to my kids about. I might be red in the face trying to explain some things, but that won't stop me from wading right in and discussing things frankly.

Haha. I don't know about that - some five year olds ask questions that most adults wouldn't have a clue about. That "why...?" phase that most children go through is downright annoying!

 

Mind you, we are talking about porn. Nothing much to challenge the intellect there.

[ListenUp]

If my boyfriend is going to look at porn I am going to have cyber sex and phone sex. It means nothing. It does not mean I am going to leave him for someone else just like he isn't going to leave me for a porn star. This is what has to be done. Otherwise, He gets his fill of other women while I play the good loyal little girl. Well bleep that if he can't be loyal I shouldn't have to be either. If he is going to look at porn, I am going to find a way to even it up.

 

 

Just leave him. And then find a new guy. And specify that you want him to wear a blindfold at all times when out of the house, that he isn't allowed to watch the television except for mens' sports and religious shows showing only men, and if he looks at another woman you'll poke his eyes out. Then your 'insecurity' will perhaps be assuaged.