Predestination? (watch out, this is a rant)

[fishtaco]

I was a video game nerd. One day I woke up and smelled the coffee, and I cut myself off video games - one of my favorite past times. Instead, I improved my body, my looks, the way I dress, my social skills, picked up hobbies that are more conducive to meeting/impressing women, changed the way I think, increased my social circle, and went out a lot to meet new people.

 

That was a long, difficult and painful transformation, but I did it (still in the process). My old friends that have rolled around in the dating scene are impressed with my changes. The goodie goodie ones are surprised by my 180 degree change. Am I more successful? Only in terms of meeting more women from my increased social contact. My percentage of success remained unchanged.

 

The only difference was that the other day, one of my guy friends down on his luck in regards to dating told me he can't compete with me (in terms of attracting women). So I've managed to scare men. Whoopty f--king do.

 

I've met a number of women so far this year. The ones that find me attractive are the same ones that would have given me a chance had I remained a video game nerd anyway. Seems like my improvements made them notice me faster. But the ones that wouldn't have been attracted to me are still not attracted to me anyway. They're impressed and think I'm cool, but I still get dumped into the will-not-do category. Yes, women can think you're awsome but at the same time would rather become lesbians if you were the last man alive.

 

I've been running full speed ahead on this, end result... my place on the 1-10 scale is still the same. Hence my subject line... predestination. Am I (are we) born with a certain upper ceiling of ability to attract women, and we're stuck no matter what we do? I mean after taking care of the obvious negatives such as not having stinky breath, have we then reached the full intrinsic potential that we may never break?

 

I believe I'd score reasonably well in terms of looks, social skills, and interesting personality. There's always room for improvement, but I'd like to see my progress translated to something real as in now I can attract women slightly better than before. But I will admit I lack in the mind game area. If that's holding me back, then this is a disgusting world, where playing tricks matter more than content, or even superficial packaging. But one must do what one must do. If that's the case, then it's time for me to be disgusting as well. I've came a long way. I'm tired and pissed off, but I won't quit. I'll figure this damn thing out. If I need to add mind tricks to my repertoire, I will learn it, and I will apply it.

[dgiirl]

I find it interesting that you write this:

 

If that's holding me back, then this is a disgusting world, where playing tricks matter more than content, or even superficial packaging.

 

and yet want this:

 

I'd like to see my progress translated to something real as in now I can attract women slightly better than before.

 

What do you consider a slightly better woman?

[bab]

 

 

:

Originally Posted by fishtaco View Post

I'd like to see my progress translated to something real as in now I can attract women slightly better than before.

 

What do you consider a slightly better woman?

 

He didn't say slightly better woman, he said that he his ability to attract any woman is slightly better.

 

 

I guess my question is, why would you want to attract women that were shallow enough not to give you the time of day anyway? Stick with the girls that can appreciate you for who you are. I'm not saying to go back to playing video games all day, but aim for a woman that wants to know the real you and will like you that way.

[JamesM]

What happens is that these women who you seem to think are out of your league actually have different likes and dislikes.

 

Yes, you attract them because of your newly revised looks, but when it comes down to it...we are truly attracted to those we feel comfortable with. You like video games and similar hobbies...there is nothing wrong with that. These women may like skydiving or a guy who likes it. And when you have conversations, they may be turned off by the idea that what you do for fun and what they would like to do for fun are different.

 

I can say that you need to be who you are comfortable with being. Always try to look your best, but do not try to play out of your league..if you want a longterm partner. And by league I mean people who have similar likes and hobbies. This doesn't mean that one league is better than another.

 

Now, there is always the possibility that you develop new likes and hobbies. Then you will find different women who you may hook up with.

 

If you are looking for shortterm relationships, then your main asset will not necessarily be looks but confidence. You must come across as being comfortable with the new you. First impressions are great, but beauty goes much deeper than skin deep. Charm will get you farther than looks.

 

Am I (are we) born with a certain upper ceiling of ability to attract women, and we're stuck no matter what we do?

 

Only if we believe we are...and unfortunately, that is why we usually stay where we are.

 

He didn't say slightly better woman, he said that he his ability to attract any woman is slightly better.

 

Actually bab, I thought he meant that he wanted to attract better women, too. And that may be part of the problem.

[dgiirl]

He didn't say slightly better woman, he said that he his ability to attract any woman is slightly better.

 

I hope you are right and I misunderstood. The wording was a little weird and was left up to interpretation However, the over all theme of his message was how can he attract a different type of woman than the ones who are already attracted to him, leaving me to believe he wanted to "upgrade".

 

JamesM wrote a really interesting response. You made me reflect on my own situation

[Mz. Pixie]

Yeah, I agree. It seems that his changes were to attract more attractive women than he could before. That might not have been exactly what he said, but that was the gist of the post.

 

My husband did this for himself because he was kind of a math geek in high school. He worked out and built up his body. He was cut- changed his wardrobe- gained more confidence. It seemed to have worked.

 

He started to get lots of dates. After college he met a tall thin blonde girl who did modeling. They dated and ended up getting married. Once he got her home and unwrapped completely she ended up not being as beautiful on the inside as she was on the outside. While all of his friends marveled over the fact he was able to land her, he was miserable. The marriage ended after only a year. Turns out miss model didn't want to work while he worked two jobs and she didn't want to have sex very much either. While that's not always the case it certainly did happen to him.

 

Be careful what you wish for in other words.

[alphamale]

being masculine is a state of mind FISHTACO.... and yes, you can work your way up the desirability ladder, and down as well.

 

how old are you again? if you're under 25 then you are in a very common situation

[SmoochieFace]

I was a video game nerd. One day I woke up and smelled the coffee, and I cut myself off video games - one of my favorite past times. Instead, I improved my body, my looks, the way I dress, my social skills, picked up hobbies that are more conducive to meeting/impressing women, changed the way I think, increased my social circle, and went out a lot to meet new people.

 

That was a long, difficult and painful transformation, but I did it (still in the process). My old friends that have rolled around in the dating scene are impressed with my changes. The goodie goodie ones are surprised by my 180 degree change. Am I more successful? Only in terms of meeting more women from my increased social contact. My percentage of success remained unchanged.

 

The only difference was that the other day, one of my guy friends down on his luck in regards to dating told me he can't compete with me (in terms of attracting women). So I've managed to scare men. Whoopty f--king do.

 

I've met a number of women so far this year. The ones that find me attractive are the same ones that would have given me a chance had I remained a video game nerd anyway. Seems like my improvements made them notice me faster. But the ones that wouldn't have been attracted to me are still not attracted to me anyway. They're impressed and think I'm cool, but I still get dumped into the will-not-do category. Yes, women can think you're awsome but at the same time would rather become lesbians if you were the last man alive.

 

I've been running full speed ahead on this, end result... my place on the 1-10 scale is still the same. Hence my subject line... predestination. Am I (are we) born with a certain upper ceiling of ability to attract women, and we're stuck no matter what we do? I mean after taking care of the obvious negatives such as not having stinky breath, have we then reached the full intrinsic potential that we may never break?

 

I believe this is a fine example of why people should just 'be themselves' instead of changing into someone else - aka being a fake. As FISHTACO has pointed out... it really doesn't do much 'good' to change in those ways. Why waste time and energy on it anyway? What is 'wrong' with just being who you are?

 

Basically, you fell for what I like to call the 'Don Lapre pitch' in which people are lured in with fabulous images of wealth, success, etc. if you just make that call and order that 'magical' package that will, with some effort on your part of course, turn you into this wonderful irresistible person who's 'got it made'. In this case, you may have fallen for the snakeoil salesmen found on those silly 'seduction' sites and... voila! You've been had. Such a fraud.

 

 

I believe I'd score reasonably well in terms of looks, social skills, and interesting personality. There's always room for improvement, but I'd like to see my progress translated to something real as in now I can attract women slightly better than before. But I will admit I lack in the mind game area. If that's holding me back, then this is a disgusting world, where playing tricks matter more than content, or even superficial packaging. But one must do what one must do. If that's the case, then it's time for me to be disgusting as well. I've came a long way. I'm tired and pissed off, but I won't quit. I'll figure this damn thing out. If I need to add mind tricks to my repertoire, I will learn it, and I will apply it.

 

...

 

So you say that the world is disgusting because of the trickery and deceit and at the same time you say you want to participate in THAT too. So sacrificing your integrity in order to attract women is now 'okay'?

 

It's THAT attitude that breeds cynicism in otherwise 'decent' folks. Think about it.

[fishtaco]

Thanks for everyone's reply. I'm too lazy to go back and quote, but I'll try to repond to all the points/questions. I apologize if I miss any.

 

This is about me. I want to get better at this. How do I tell I'm better? 1) if more women say yes, 2) if more attractive women say yes. So dgiirl and bab are both correct. Now you may come back and say I'm just using women as prizes. Well, if there's an alternate "measuring stick" I can use I'd like to hear about it. Using boxing as an analogy. If you want to be a good boxer, you have to spar. When you spar, you may get hurt, your partner may get hurt. If there's a virtual reality substitute that will help you learn the same way yet prevent injury, I'd gladly use it.

 

JamesM you made some interesting points. I have to think about what you've posted.

 

Mz.Pixie, thanks for your story about your husband. My view is that attractiveness is independent of the crappiness of a woman. Your husband's mistake was picking a bad one, not picking an attractive one. I've been with "personality" girls that are just as psycho. In fact, so far I've only been with personality girls. I got along with them, looks didn't matter much. Plus I know that as the relationship progresses, looks matter less and less, and compatibility matter more and more. Been there done that. But it's time for a change. I don't think it's unreasonable that now I add looks to my requirements. I mean can I condemn a woman because she likes blonde guys over six feet tall and I'm not? Can a caucasian woman codemn a caucasian man for only wanting to date Asian women? These are simply preferences and everyone is entitled to have them their way.

 

alphamale, I'm 35. Yes you've just perfectly pointed out why I need to double my efforts to catch up. By catching up I didn't mean number wise, although I am embarassed to admit how few women I've been with, I meant skills at attracting women. I'm 10 years behind because of the time I wasted playing video games. I hate sucking at things. And I suck at this, bad.

 

Smoochie face. I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on the "just be yourself". If being myself didn't work before, why would it work now? I think I just haven't figured out the system. There are guys that are fat, ugly and broke and they do much better than me. I'm missing an ingredient. I'll figure it out. As far as the cynicism, I'm one of those "decent folks" that's already been infected from my time swimming in the dating scene. I live in a society. If I think I'm a mover and shaker and can change culture and trend, then yes I should do whatever I feel is right. But I'm just some dude that's trying to survive and find his way, so I'll do whatever works. I was a "nice guy". Still am unfortunately, I can't shake it. That's why I tried to over-improve everything else to compensate. But if that's the last anchor that's holding me down, then I have no choice but to let that go as well. I'm not better than anyone, I'm not going to hold myself to a higher standard than anyone else. I will try to for as long as I can, but there comes a point where I'll simply become a lemming. Society rewards you for fitting in.

[SmoochieFace]

Smoochie face. I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on the "just be yourself". If being myself didn't work before, why would it work now? I think I just haven't figured out the system. There are guys that are fat, ugly and broke and they do much better than me. I'm missing an ingredient. I'll figure it out. As far as the cynicism, I'm one of those "decent folks" that's already been infected from my time swimming in the dating scene. I live in a society. If I think I'm a mover and shaker and can change culture and trend, then yes I should do whatever I feel is right. But I'm just some dude that's trying to survive and find his way, so I'll do whatever works. I was a "nice guy". Still am unfortunately, I can't shake it. That's why I tried to over-improve everything else to compensate. But if that's the last anchor that's holding me down, then I have no choice but to let that go as well. I'm not better than anyone, I'm not going to hold myself to a higher standard than anyone else. I will try to for as long as I can, but there comes a point where I'll simply become a lemming. Society rewards you for fitting in.

 

Well, a lot of it comes down to one thing: timing. Perhaps you've just had lousy luck in that department. Perhaps you are interpreting your 'lack of success' to things that you feel are 'hindering' you (video game-playing) and you then decided to do a complete overhaul of yourself only to find out that your "percentage of success remained unchanged" and your "place on the 1 -10 scale is still the same." Those are YOUR words within the quotation marks.

 

Perhaps the reality is that it is simply you've had bad timing. Nothing to do with your looks or hobbies or even your personality. Just bad timing.

 

I live in a society too - a society that, frankly, I do not have very much respect for. As you have mentioned, there is lots of cheating and game-playing going on. Those are two things I disrespect about our society right off the bat. Yet I 'survive'. I make it and I make it quite well. I am in a great relationship and I have a decent job right now and I'm in line to get an even better job in my chosen field soon. Timing.

 

Nothing to do with my looks. Nothing to do with my hobbies. Nothing to do with my interests. Nothing to do with following some unwritten societal rules. Nothing to do with 'fitting in'.

 

I'm just being myself and it works. Works well.

[quankanne]

I'm one of those "decent folks" that's already been infected from my time swimming in the dating scene.

 

am curious: since your decision to a computer-tater (as opposed to a couch-tater), are you still hitting the same swimming holes as you look to socialize with women, or are you trying new watering holes? Sometimes when you stay in the same environment (in this case, trying to find dates) people are less likely to look at you with new eyes, and you've got to move outside your comfort zone (swimming hole) and find someplace new or different to do your thing.

[fishtaco]

SmoochieFace. You brought up a very good point about timing. I have to think about that. I agree with you about the current state of the society. I'd prefer not to join them, but as a last resort, I will.

 

quankanne, I'm hitting every watering hole I can possibly find. I swore off my video game playing, and I'm not in the computer gaming scene anymore. Well, I'm still a software engineer (yes, creates an exciting mental image doesn't it?), but I never ever talk about video games or computers. Maybe just with my guy buddies. Even when asked I usually try to make a joke out of it. I will tell women what I do, having a real job is a plus, but then I would drop it in favor of the more interesting things that I do. People generally guess that I'm in the music or movie industry, since I'm sporting long hair and I've over-hauled any nerdy appearance out of myself. I don't even carrying around fancy gadgets like the latest palm or whatever, or hang a blue tooth head set off my ear.

 

This year I've tried and achieved varying degrees of success (never past the 2nd date however) with women from 20-37, from unemployed single mom to career women to strippers. One of my next targets is a student. So I'd say I'm getting a pretty good cross-section of whatever is out there. I put myself outside of my comfort zone all the time. That's the only way to increase my social contact. I've been to parties where I know 1 out of 60 people. This past weekend I was just in Vegas with 4 women - 1 is my buddy, 1 I've met one other time, and 2 I've never met before. I could have left them to hang out with my other group of friends that were in Vegas too, but I chose to stay with the new people to socialize. Since they're my buddy's friends, I was able to get spy information out of her. Usual stuff, I'm outgoing, funny, dirty mind but not sleezy, and interesting. Yep, I was liked, but once more not in the will-do-department. The girl that I thought was cute didn't even consider me "tap-worthy", in my buddy's words, and she's got a bit of a gut and sporting some cellulite. I'm no muscle man but at least I'm in athletic shape.

 

I have to consider JamesM's league concept and SmoochieFace's timing concept. But before I absorb that, my current conclusion is that I need to improve more. Once I put on another 20lbs of muscle, will that cute but slightly chunky girl consider me tap-worthy then?

 

I have to also think about alphamale's state of mind concept. Maybe the self improvements I've been doing are too physical. They will make women that are already attracted to me like me even more, but I won't bring in a larger chunk of the female population. Maybe that's what the correct state of mind does.

[JamesM]

But before I absorb that, my current conclusion is that I need to improve more. Once I put on another 20lbs of muscle, will that cute but slightly chunky girl consider me tap-worthy then?

 

I wonder...if you feel you have to improve more to attract women, maybe the problem lies within? Those fat and ugly men you mentioned probably carry within them self-confidence. It is not a matter of twenty pounds of muscle, it is the matter of using the muscle between your ears.

 

Women love a man who is confident. They are attracted to a man who is comfortable with himself. I remember when I was in my 20s. I was...and probably still am because you never lose that...a geek. I graduated from high scool at 5'6" and about 120#. Skinny, short, glasses. About a year out of high school, it dawned on me that in college these people never knew me as a geek. I could simply become myself as I wanted to be. So, I got contacts, began working out, and as "luck" would have it, I grew in height to six foot. But that alone would never have done anything for me. I can't say that women began flocking to me. No, I needed to develop confidence in myself. I never became a "babe magnet" but I did date quite a few women. I met my wife at 24, and so my life has been. (Incidentally, she also lost weight and got contacts shortly before meeting me. She gained huge amounts of self-confidence and beauty. She could have had many a guy. Had I met her when I was a geek, I would not have looked at her twice...nor she at me. Interesting, how things work out. Now I suppose we are together raising little geeks. ).

 

My point is that going to the gym by itself is not some magical cure. You need confidence in yourself. Unfortunately, you have started late and for some reason are putting down yourself for spending time with video games. Your looks...no matter what they are...can be your asset. I suggest that you work on your personality. Don't run from your current friends. Don't think that the "beautiful people" are the elite of society. No, you need someone who loves you for who you are not someone who you are trying to be.

 

Start researching on the internet for ways to attract women. Many tell you how to TALK with women and LISTEN to women. These are the best attributes. If you present an image of someone whom you aren't (ie a different league), then the woman you attract will one day see through the facade and leave you. You will experience rejection not because of just a failed relationship but also from a feeling that you have not measured up.

 

That is why I say...find people who have similar interests. Not all of the "beautiful people" have different interests from you. If your goal is a longterm relationship, then a quick fix won't be the answer. Begin by joining clubs or dating sites that have people who have alot in common with you.

 

A guy who does seem to have answers as to how to talk with women... if you want to meet women for short term relationships is David DeAngelo. Google him. I have seen his videos and read some literature. Although it isn't going to help ME at the present time, it can be helpful to you.

 

So, weightliftiing is good that it can help you with your self-confidence. But developing your personality and attitude is even a greater help at building your self-confidence.

 

You are as good as any guy out there. The only one who doesn't know that seems to be you.

[fishtaco]

I wonder...if you feel you have to improve more to attract women, maybe the problem lies within? Those fat and ugly men you mentioned probably carry within them self-confidence. It is not a matter of twenty pounds of muscle, it is the matter of using the muscle between your ears.

 

Well, I was using that cute chunky chick to illustrate my frustration. I believe, in my mind, that I'm higher on the 1-10 scale than she is, yet she would refuse me. I don't think that's a lack of confidence. It was more of a throw my hands up and exclaim what do I have to do? Your league concept and SmoochieFace's timing concept could explain this, but I'm still thinking about it. Seems like it would be the easy way out if I just chalk it up to something outside of my control. Perhaps control - needing to feel like I'm actively doing something to move forward is my problem. It makes me try really hard, and when I'm not getting results, I get frustrated.

 

I think I do okay in the self confidence and conversation department, I do get women that are attracted to me and I'd have to turn them down. If I wanted a relationship I could start one tomorrow, albeit with someone I'm not all that attracted to. So my case isn't the same as the "nice guy" posts where I can't get anything. I can, but I want to do better. Maybe dgiirl's post about I'm looking for an upgrade is right on the nail. I do okay within my comfort "league". But I want to play outside of my league now.

 

I will do a self examination about my self confidence and conversational skills like you said. There's always room for improvement. I will stay out of the mind games arena since I have these other things to work on/think about. Once I'm out of options then I'll go back to consider the mind games.

[JamesM]

Well, I was using that cute chunky chick to illustrate my frustration. I believe, in my mind, that I'm higher on the 1-10 scale than she is, yet she would refuse me. I

 

Problem One...Thinking you are better than someone is something that people pick up on quickly...hence maybe her refusal to be with you.

 

I don't think that's a lack of confidence. It was more of a throw my hands up and exclaim what do I have to do?

 

Correct. It may be one of arrogance. This is not the same thing as having self-confidence. Thinking yo are better does not equal self-confidence. What do you have to do? Be a friend and listener. Be a man who cares about other people. Be a man who values a woman as more than...well, just a possible date. Women have a sixth sense about men who look at them as people versus men who objectify them and think of them as something to be conquered.

 

So my case isn't the same as the "nice guy" posts where I can't get anything. I can, but I want to do better. Maybe dgiirl's post about I'm looking for an upgrade is right on the nail.

 

My suggestion is to "practice" on those who are not what you consider attractive. It is entirely possible that you may think you do well in conversation but aren't. Or you do well with those women who you feel are not as attractive. I have a feeling that you will need to be considered an upgrade to get an upgrade. If you continue to look at women as either below you or above you , then you will have difficulty with both.

 

But I want to play outside of my league now.

 

Why? Instead of focusing on those whom you feel are an "upgrade," find a woman who you find attractive. Then reach out and talk with her. Find out if you have interests in common. If not, then move on. I get the impression that in your mind, you want this beautiful woman to love you and lust for you, because this will make you feel like you made it. Am I right? I challenge you to think differently...when you think you made it, then you will attract women who you feel are an upgrade.

 

I am beginning to think that maybe the problem is still confidence. A man who is self-confident doesn't necessarily think he needs an upgrade. He doesn't need an attractive woman to like him to make him feel better.

 

From some of your comments, I still think it is a self-confidence issue yet.

[Guest]

First of all I just want to say this is a very funny post. But at the same time a very good post.

 

A few things come to mind (I am a woman by the way):

 

1. Confidence - yes it has been addressed. But confidence needs to be distinguished from Vanity. Confidence comes from within. Vanity can be disguised as confidence but is shrouded by insecurity. Which one are you displaying when you pursue. This is a tricky one so think deeply.

 

2. Experience in life - It is not enough to be interesting, I don't think, but to be interesting in a quirky way. Not sure how to explain, but somebody who has grown character out of taking risks, and making mistakes and has learned to fix his mistakes and better himself regardless of the circumstances.

 

3. Aggressiveness and the chase - I think many "attractive" women like to be chased.. pursued. It makes them feel more valued. When I was younger, I always assumed that the guys who did not try very hard were not into me. Whereas, I would respond to those who kept on trying. I was shy and insecure and so I chose the ones who pursued hard because I felt that they really really liked me and this made it less risky for me. Childish I know but that WAS my thinking.

[Kamille]

I don't know where I would place myself on the 1-10 scale, but I do believe that most of my friends are 8 or up and I also know that by their mid-twenties, they had learn to detect and avoid men who were only trying to pick them up because they have something to prove to themselves.

 

Because, yes, the conversation gets boring after the second date when you are out with someone who is only into you because he has something to prove. And hey, if a woman is in the major leagues quality wise, why not go out with a fun guy who will consider that they are equals and also from the same specie.

 

This might be your problem. "Better" women have outsmarted guys like you. So stop overdoing it, over analysing it and date because it's fun, not because it's a competetive sport.

[Sand&Water]

Reply:

 

Fishtaco, listen to JamesM's words. He presented several firm, and plausible explanations.

 

I believe, you are missing out on something major in your life -or on the technique you use to approach women. I can't put my finger on it. It is difficult.

 

Only, you, can discover and understand that something. Thus, it is wise and beneficial to do a self examination -both internally and externally.

 

You must step up to the plate, Fishtaco. You are approaching your 40s. You are no longer, some 20 year old dude, experimenting with whether or not he should lay his arm around his woman in the movie theatre.

 

It is evident, you are young at heart [...mind and soul]. But IF you don't find an adequate solution and comfortable medium in your world, you won't be able to settle down with a wonderful woman.

 

It is now, or never.

 

How can you expect pleasant results, with a "glass half empty" outlook on life/compatibility/attractiveness/dating scene/women?

 

This is just the realistic view of the field.

 

There is hope.

 

Sand&Water

[fishtaco]

JamesM has some really good points. I'm trying to absorb what he has told me.

 

Thanks to the other posters as well. I have to think about this.