God

[Yamaha]

God is claimed to be "all-knowing." (Amongst many other things.)

 

So, if it already "knows" everything, that means it must know everything that has happened, is happenining, and will happen, with each and every living thing.

 

If he already knows all of this, then things must be predestined.

 

It things are predestined, they are already laid out for us.

 

If they are already laid out for us, how can we have free will?

 

He knows all things but we do not, therefore we still have our free will. If he told us how we will conduct our lives then there would be no point "in life".

[the_alchemyst]

One more thing:

 

So while the endpoint is predetermined, free will allows us to determine how we get to the end, if at all.

 

I don't understand this. Predetermined and free will seem like oxymorons to me.

 

And also, I don't see the point in living a life that has my "endpoint" already predertermined. So, if my endpoint is predertemined then what does it matter what I chose? It's all going to end the same way, anyway. And with free will, this is precisely what I don't want.

[SoCalCatman72]

Alright.

 

I have X and Y choice. God knows I'm going to chose Y, but I don't know yet. I keep thinking which choice to make, and end up choosing Y.

 

Free will, right? I could have chosen X, but I didn't. Why not?

 

Because if god already "knew" I was going to pick X, since it is "all-knowing," then I didn't really have a choice to begin with, did I?

 

Ok, so you chose Y, but it was your choice. No one told you to choose Y, you did so based upon your own knowledge and initiative. God may have known that you were going to choose Y, but if Y were the wrong choice, He doesn't intervene to force you to choose X, He knows your choice, but even if it is the wrong choice, He allows you to make the decision.

 

I must say that it is a very thought provoking argument you have made.

 

Not really, I'm just crazy.

 

Aren't we all to some extent

[the_alchemyst]

He knows all things but we do not, therefore we still have our free will. If he told us how we will conduct our lives then there would be no point "in life".

 

Why is god referred to as a "he," anyways?

 

So, god does not tell us how we are supposed to live. Okay. But he already knows how we are going to live. How do I have free will over my life, meaning that I get to decide, not it, is he has already decided for me?

 

How, you ask? If he already knows my life--how it began, how it is, and most importantly, how it will end, and all that is in between--what choice do I really have?

 

Ultimately, after I'm dead, what choices did I really have and make, if it already knew?

 

It's like solving a math problem. I only know the answer after I have done the problem, whether in my head or in paper.

 

How can it know the answer to the choices I will "make" if he hasn't already done my life--that is, laid it all out beforehand--?

 

I don't see the free will in something god has already scripted.

[SoCalCatman72]

And also, I don't see the point in living a life that has my "endpoint" already predertermined. So, if my endpoint is predertemined then what does it matter what I chose? It's all going to end the same way, anyway. And with free will, this is precisely what I don't want.

 

The endpoint, unfortunately in this life is death, and we all will reach that same endpoint.

 

It's not the endpoint, but the journey there that is significant. The decisions we make are what affect the journey, and it is those decisions we have free will to make or not make.

[bluetuesday]

If he already knows my life--how it began, how it is, and most importantly, how it will end, and all that is in between--what choice do I really have?

 

I don't see the free will in something god has already scripted.

 

your problem, if i may call it that, is you're making two assumptions.

 

the first is that god DOES know what choices you are going to make. and on that basis you decide that the whole question of free will is bogus. but who said god knows what you're going to decide? some guys who decided if god is great it must know everything??

 

the second is that you believe god is outside yourself and is therefore an external being who is seeking to force its will upon you. this isn't an entirely correct view of god. christianity certainly teaches that the kindgom of god is INSIDE you. so when you make a decision, god knows about it, but only because, and i know you're probably not going to believe this, god is... well, essentially god is... you. or rather, you are god.

 

so in that way, god knows everything, but only because god IS everything. it doesn't mean you don't have a choice to deny that and live your life as if it isn't the case. that's what free will means.

[pureinheart]

No need to attempt to convince me, either. I mean of your beliefs, good for you, but why the need to pipe up on a thread about God if you don't believe?

 

I'm just saying.

 

OP -

I lacked faith for many years. It was my lack of faith that made my life so hard. We all go through trials and tribulations. Hell, my father endured things that no human being ever should. He actually did crawl through miles and miles of fields of dead bodies alone behind enemy lines.

 

But it is my faith that tells me that I can survive, no matter what, and that I can battle my demons inside myself and always strive to be a better person. Always striving, never quite achieving

 

I feel God everywhere. I can't deny God. But I won't say I understand God either. That would be like an ant trying to say they understand the cognitive processes of a human being.

 

How egotistical.

 

This is very well said....sometimes our faith is tried to degrees unimaginable, like Blind Otters father....but once our faith is tried and we are at the end of the seemingly never ending tunnel, there is a new stregnth that comes forth... (paraphrase....if we have the faith of a mustard seed we can move mountains).

 

Noticing the term religious and religion in previous posts....just want to say for me, I am neither....simply love the Lord.

 

Also didn't mean to offend anyone by stating what "I" know to be true....everybody is different, and that is what makes this world interesting.

 

I have to say the natural thing for me when someone disagrees is to become defensive.....that is being tempered daily.....we should respect other veiws and opinions.....agree to disagree.

 

The place that I am at now is realizing I am not responsible to change anyone, I don't have the power to do that, but do have the power to change me.

[Moose]

I have to say the natural thing for me when someone disagrees is to become defensive.....that is being tempered daily.....we should respect other veiws and opinions.....agree to disagree.

Very well said.

 

I'm guilty of becoming defensive, but only when, 'one' tries to intimidate me and egg me on.....

 

If the OP believes this lady is real, then so beit. It doesn't mean that anyone else has to follow suit or make fun of her.

[blind_otter]

Why is god referred to as a "he," anyways?

 

short hand. I always try to refer to God as God but that can get clumsy, when written.

 

So, god does not tell us how we are supposed to live. Okay. But he already knows how we are going to live. How do I have free will over my life, meaning that I get to decide, not it, is he has already decided for me?

 

He hasn't decided, he just knows. Haven't you ever had a premonition before? My sister dreamt about the twin towers falling months before it happened. So what? She didn't make it happen by dreaming about it.

 

Ultimately, after I'm dead, what choices did I really have and make, if it already knew?

 

See the above. Knowing about something doesn't make it happen.

 

It's like solving a math problem. I only know the answer after I have done the problem, whether in my head or in paper.

 

Most complex mathematical equations can be solved using a variety of methods. It's not the destination that matters, but the process that you use to come to your conclusion. That is what we review on our deathbed. Because the answer to all our lives, the end result -- is death. But the solving of our equation -- is life.

[bluetuesday]

oh thats right God is only responsible for the "good" things.....

 

a tiny point, but this small statement is indicative of the overwhelming majority of comment i get from atheists. i am not picking on you, a4a, this just stood out for me.

 

i said humans are responsible, and you interpreted it as 'god is responsible for the good things but not the bad'. this is not AT ALL what i said, and to hold that view wouldn't make a lot of sense, now would it?

 

when i said humans are responsible, i meant for everything. including, since you mention it, the spread of aids and of course, the advent of drugs which help to control HIV.

 

anyone who thinks god is a man in the sky with a big stick who does good things for some people and not others and who picks and chooses who to help, who to ignore, who to save, whatever, has fundamentally and wholeheartedly misunderstood the entire concept of god to such an astonishing degree that they can only comment on that concept in a wholly misinformed way. it would be like me commenting on the political situation in china by saying how pretty the necklines were under chairman mao.

 

i understand that people tend to have a need to back up their own beliefs by making the beliefs of a person holding the opposing view seem irrational. because if deists were rational, that wouldn't be comfortable for anti-deists. i get that. and this is not personal, i would just rather not be misinterpreted.

[a4a]

a tiny point, but this small statement is indicative of the overwhelming majority of comment i get from atheists. i am not picking on you, a4a, this just stood out for me.

 

i said humans are responsible, and you interpreted it as 'god is responsible for the good things but not the bad'. this is not AT ALL what i said, and to hold that view wouldn't make a lot of sense, now would it?

 

when i said humans are responsible, i meant for everything. including, since you mention it, the spread of aids and of course, the advent of drugs which help to control HIV.

 

anyone who thinks god is a man in the sky with a big stick who does good things for some people and not others and who picks and chooses who to help, who to ignore, who to save, whatever, has fundamentally and wholeheartedly misunderstood the entire concept of god to such an astonishing degree that they can only comment on that concept in a wholly misinformed way. it would be like me commenting on the political situation in china by saying how pretty the necklines were under chairman mao.

 

i understand that people tend to have a need to back up their own beliefs by making the beliefs of a person holding the opposing view seem irrational. because if deists were rational, that wouldn't be comfortable for anti-deists. i get that. and this is not personal, i would just rather not be misinterpreted.

 

 

Sorry I was not actually directing that at you..... but as a general statement that I do often hear. If something goes right you hear it is a miracle or a blessing...... if something goes wrong you do not hear that it is gods wrath. (little Timmy has cancer at the age of 4 as an example, god holds no responsibility for the cancer, only is responsible if Timmy lives.) Unless you count those that say for God destroyed N.O. with a hurricane and what not because N.O. is full of sinners. I think those are rare comments to hear in general. So it is just a personal observation from my own exp.

 

As for the bold in your post. Well I think many people do believe their god has chosen them to do his/her/its bidding personally. I think many do believe exactly that, or they sure seem to. I think many do use god as a reason or excuse to fulfill their own agendas. Not all, but shoot there certainly are some out there.

 

I mean really is that not what baptism (or any ritual to make you part of a belief system) is based on picking and choosing in a way? examp.: So if one is not baptised they will go to hell? So any god would be picking and choosing and who to save when the world ends? (wasn't that supposed to happen already? I am serious not being a smartbutt )

 

But then you think of more primitive religions that had angry volcano gods, angry gods of the seas....... and so on. Those gods certainly did pick and choose with a "big stick". I think many may see/use modern gods in almost the same way. Similar to modern statements made against people such as AIDS being gods way of dealing with homosexuals. So yes I understand what you are saying but some people do not think like you do, some believe a god uses a big stick to pick and choose.

 

But I still don't believe that people can just talk to dead people. That is just my opinion. I hope there are not dead people floating around, I mean shoot that means they would see you doing all kinds of things you really don't want them to see

 

And I am not an atheist...... I am a pirate.

[CardPlay3r]

Ok...so a question to all the faithful in here...if I don't believe in any god and won't believe till the day I die...does it mean I'm going to hell?

[InsanityImpaired]

Ok...so a question to all the faithful in here...if I don't believe in any god and won't believe till the day I die...does it mean I'm going to hell?

That depends on the faith of the person who answers the question .

[PandorasBox]

Ok...so a question to all the faithful in here...if I don't believe in any god and won't believe till the day I die...does it mean I'm going to hell?

 

 

I don't know that for sure, and I'm not sure anyone knows for sure. But for me, I would rather TRY to live my life as if there is a God and believe that there is, than not, and get to judgement day and find out there was all along.

[CardPlay3r]

That sounds like...belief out of fear lol was it Blaise Pascal that said "I don't believe in god, but I fear him"?

[PandorasBox]

That sounds like...belief out of fear lol was it Blaise Pascal that said "I don't believe in god, but I fear him"?

 

 

I do believe though. I didn't say that I didn't believe. I do believe and choose to, rather than not.

 

Some might believe out of fear though.

 

I also think that there are some who fear to much and some that do not fear enough, and that could be of anything.

[InsanityImpaired]

That sounds like...belief out of fear lol was it Blaise Pascal that said "I don't believe in god, but I fear him"?

 

Pascal had a big interest in gambling, and probability. Expected gains for believing are much higher than for not-believing. Thus if we assume the chance of God existing as 0.5, as Pascal did, it would be the wise option to believe.

 

If I could fit in a reference to Stendhal's "Le Rouge et le Noir", and the many lives won and lost in the casino ...

[CardPlay3r]

Right...isn't it hypocritical to believe in a god just because you might be better off that way?

[bluetuesday]

Ok...so a question to all the faithful in here...if I don't believe in any god and won't believe till the day I die...does it mean I'm going to hell?

 

the really simple answer is no, you're not going to hell - if you mean the place 'hell' that's full of fire and baby-eating and people getting gang raped by demons.

 

the slightly more complicated answer is this: hell is a state of mind, a level of consciousness, which means it certainly DOES exist, but it isn't a physical place.

 

let's imagine this scenario. you die, and horror of horrors, don't lose consciousness. i mean, you can see your body lying there without a head (or whatever, i'm being creative) but somehow you still seem to be able to exist outside your body. you don't have a body but you have a sense of yourself, you can see, you seem to be alive still, just without a body.

 

freaky. now, you've grown up in a world where heaven and hell (as actual destinations, not just concepts) are touted by lots of people as real places - one in the sky, the other somewhere considerably deeper. and these are also the people who tell you that your soul will survive the death of your body.

 

so in that situation, what would you think? would you think 'oh dear, they were right about an afterlife so i've made a balls up here. because i've never believed in god i'm probably going to hell'?

 

i'd imagine that would be what most atheists/pirates would think, on being confronted with that situation.

 

now the thing is, life is what you make it. and so, as it happens, is death. so if you died and believed you were going to go to hell, that's the reality with which you'd be presented. you have free will to choose your circumstances now, in life, and that doesn't stop when your body dies. when i say hell, i mean a state of consciousness where you are separated from god.

 

so there are two things. if you died and immediately realised you were still aware, you'd also bet that god was real and probably you'd think you'd blown it with him. so the most likely scenario is that you would panic, be sure you were going to go to hell and could do nothing about it, thereby you might, at least temporarily, create these circumstances.

 

the other thing, which i've already alluded to, is that heaven and hell, being levels of consciousness, levels of awareness of god if you like, are 'places' where you are right now, while you're alive. so if you're in hell while you're alive, if you believe you're separated from god, you still will be when you die. and if you're in heaven when you're alive, in other words if you've reached the stage of spiritual development of realising that god is within you and have fulfilled your earthly plan of what you're supposed to do with that knowledge, you'll already be in heaven and this will continue when your body dies.

 

yeah, i know these are abstract concepts. the other simple answer is, of course, if you die disbelieving the reality of god, your soul will have to keep re-embodying until it learns to make a better choice.

[pureinheart]

Very well said.

 

I'm guilty of becoming defensive, but only when, 'one' tries to intimidate me and egg me on.....

 

If the OP believes this lady is real, then so beit. It doesn't mean that anyone else has to follow suit or make fun of her.

 

Oh ya Moose, I hear you on that one....disagreeing, fine....although to intentionally purpose a bad reaction....not cool....