Troubled with wife's past

[Spinderella]

It sounds like you assume no one has had a modest or limited sexual history. Which isn't true. I think most people are fairly careful about what they get involved in. And men aren't the only ones who have emotional reactions over this issue. I've known plenty of women who expressed similar concerns. Wouldn't telling the truth about something like this up front allow both parties to make informed choices? Isn't honesty in relationships a good thing?

My post wasn't completely serious, but, the old double standard does anger me at times. I do as I pointed out in an earlier post, understand it to an extent. I think I would have the same problem with hearing that my boyfriend had spoken the same sweet romantic words he does to me to other women in the past. Although rationally I know that he has, and that it would be ridiculous to let the fact upset me, my ego does have a slight problem with it. Therefore, I do not ask! If I did ask, then of course I would have to be prepared to battle with my ego for awhile (not neccessarily a bad thing, the ego is a real pain at times).

I think this is the female equivalent to the posters dilemna, or one of them anyway. I also would not be too happy to hear about my boyfriends past threesome with two women, but, because of the way men seem to think, I could feel pretty secure that he found them the kind of trashy girls that he could never fall in love with. I guess sometimes these things can work in our favour!

[shoedevil]

My post wasn't completely serious, but, the old double standard does anger me at times. I do as I pointed out in an earlier post, understand it to an extent. I think I would have the same problem with hearing that my boyfriend had spoken the same sweet romantic words he does to me to other women in the past.

Of course, anybody would. Your post sounded just a little cynical...

For me, I couldn't be in a relationship with someone in which certain topics were completely off-limits. I'm an open person in that sense. You can choose who you fall in love with, which is why I think talking about these issues up front is the best way to go. I've never followed any double standards in relationship, and don't think they really exist to any great extent. Have you been rejected by a guy who boasted about sleeping around? I 've never met a woman who has...

[Walk]

the thing is, nobody is saying its rational thinking.

 

the bottom line is no guy wants their gf, let alone wife, to have ever been the type of girl to desire 2 c*cks, lol. Nobody wants to be with a girl who in their eyes used to be a skank.

 

 

Also, 2 men and a women is way different than 2 women and a man.

So, I was pondering this post and I'm gonna just throw it out there... This "skank" has shown she has a desire to be fulfilled sexually. She had cheap meaningless sex with two men for her own sexual gratification. This wasn't a "I love him and want to make him happy", this was done out of selfish desires for her own sexual fulfillment and fantasies.

 

Today's world seems to preach that women only have sex with people they love, or care for deeply. Sex for just sex is skanky. (generalizing) As much as I'd like to believe that the world is beginning to accept that women do have sexual desires, I still think it lags greatly behind our acceptance of mens sexual freedom.

 

What I'm trying to say is, I don't think it's really about the two way. I think it's more to do with the power and control. The woman took what she wanted from two men at once. I could see how that would scare the living daylights out of a guy. Not only does she have full power over his sexual life while in a relationship but she just proved that she isn't afraid to use that power against two men at once. That she is not just a creature of love and affection, but has now revealed that she can wield her sexual desires without feeling anything for the guy, and can center her actions around her own desires.

 

The sheer power that demonstrates would have to be scary for a man. He's held that ability to have sex without feeling for years, and he knows how empowering that feels. To use and discard a person for his own pleasure is power. Yet here a woman comes who's not only displayed this power, but has done so with 2 men at once.... I can see how that would be intimidating to a man. How it would make him feel small, and as though he wouldn't be able to control her or her desires.

 

And usually what we fear, we hate.

[Walk]

Where did James8888 go? He hasn't posted for a while.

[Spinderella]

So, I was pondering this post and I'm gonna just throw it out there... This "skank" has shown she has a desire to be fulfilled sexually. She had cheap meaningless sex with two men for her own sexual gratification. This wasn't a "I love him and want to make him happy", this was done out of selfish desires for her own sexual fulfillment and fantasies.

 

Today's world seems to preach that women only have sex with people they love, or care for deeply. Sex for just sex is skanky. (generalizing) As much as I'd like to believe that the world is beginning to accept that women do have sexual desires, I still think it lags greatly behind our acceptance of mens sexual freedom.

 

What I'm trying to say is, I don't think it's really about the two way. I think it's more to do with the power and control. The woman took what she wanted from two men at once. I could see how that would scare the living daylights out of a guy. Not only does she have full power over his sexual life while in a relationship but she just proved that she isn't afraid to use that power against two men at once. That she is not just a creature of love and affection, but has now revealed that she can wield her sexual desires without feeling anything for the guy, and can center her actions around her own desires.

 

The sheer power that demonstrates would have to be scary for a man. He's held that ability to have sex without feeling for years, and he knows how empowering that feels. To use and discard a person for his own pleasure is power. Yet here a woman comes who's not only displayed this power, but has done so with 2 men at once.... I can see how that would be intimidating to a man. How it would make him feel small, and as though he wouldn't be able to control her or her desires.

 

And usually what we fear, we hate.

 

Whilst I completely and wholeheartedly agree with this post, I also think there must also be some biological reason why men find it so offputting for a woman to have many sexual partners. I know many women who lose respect for a man who gives too much too soon, in the way of gifts etc, before getting anything in return, why should this be? We could reason that he has his own reasons for doing so and we can be compassionate, but are our levels of attraction for him still the same? What can we do about that?

I know it is slightly different, but it is just an example. Is this all the result of conditioning or is it biological?

[Walk]

Whilst I completely and wholeheartedly agree with this post, I also think there must also be some biological reason why men find it so offputting for a woman to have many sexual partners. I know many women who lose respect for a man who gives too much too soon, in the way of gifts etc, before getting anything in return, why should this be? We could reason that he has his own reasons for doing so and we can be compassionate, but are our levels of attraction for him still the same? What can we do about that?

I know it is slightly different, but it is just an example. Is this all the result of conditioning or is it biological?

 

This is hypothetical, and I'm by no means saying I know what I'm talking about... But I suppose you could say that the reason why women find this unappealling is because it implies that he gives without getting an equal return. Easily taken advantage of, lacks boundaries, lacks self respect to enforce those boundaries. Which would imply he won't be able to provide stability or security in the future. The trust necessary for a relationship can't be built if she feels he'll deplete his resources continually. It also implies that he won't he realize when he's depleted, and if she needs him to be there for her, he won't have the necessary resources to help.

 

For instance, I'm not looking for a guy who will give me everything I ever wanted, but I do want a strong person. Someone I can build a foundation, or solid base with, and who won't allow himself to be chipped away at until there is nothing left. Because if he allows that, then when I am in need of support/resources there won't be any available for me. And at that point I'd be just as capable on my own.

 

I don't think women (in general) are looking for a guy to provide and take care of her.. but just to be a strong individual who has enough respect for himself to feel what he gives is worthwhile, to know his boundaries, and to enforce those with others. If he believes what he has is worthwhile, then she will feel he can contribute worthwhile things to the relationship.

 

You could translate this over to the three way scenario.. A man is looking for inner strength in a life partner. Not someone who lacks boundaries, or lacks self respect to enforce those boundaries. He wants to know that what she brings to a relationship is going to be used to better his life.. not just anyone who happens to come along. He wants someone can demonstrate that she knows her own value, and isn't afraid to stand up for herself. I think men want a woman who is capable of that in order to feel comfortable exposing the vulnerable aspects of themselves to her. There has to be proof that the person is willing to withhold from others in order to have hte necessary resources to provide for the important people in our lives. But if the person shows they will give away everything to anyone, then it doesn't build the trust that our partner will ensure our needs will be met above anyone and everything else.

 

I don't really know.. it's all conjecture.

[stillafool]

what exactly about what your wife did bothers you? Is it making you feel insecure? My husband told me he had a sex with 3 women at the same time when he was single (4 years before we met each other). I was kind of relieved that he had already lived out that fantasy. It didn't make me feel jealous because with more than 2 people involved I knew it wasn't "love sex" like we have. Are you upset because as a man you feel now that your wife has more sexual experience than you?

[blind_otter]

I'm finding this conversation to very interesting. What's really intriguing to me is that although most are telling me this thing my wife did was in the past and I shouldn't let it get to me I'm still seeing a lot of response to the topic. This tells me that it's still hitting a big nerve with [quomost of you.

 

I dunno bout all that. I had a 4 page thread on long, boring weddings that didn't hit a nerve. People in this community are opinionated and chatty about everything. Even female ejaculation. I'm just saying....

 

So, I can tell you all that I do believe what you're telling me and I'm going to put this behind me yet still my reaction is not unwarranted or abnormal.

 

Google: retroactive jealousy. I can't believe you're a counseling student and don't recognize your own faulty logic. Challenge your faulty thinking. Use CBT methods. I feel like your thoughts are just going round and round in your head. Write it out. Refute the illogical statements in your head ON PAPER. Don't just "think it" and expect results.

 

Come on, what hetero guy could honestly say he wouldn't? And, she knows my past and that this is one of the things that I never did.

 

Probably the ones who had them ruin relationships or marriages. The only way threesomes work is if none of the parties are involved with each other. That's JMO, though. Take it with a grain of salt. I speak from experience.

[stillafool]

I haven't read this entire post. What I find interesting is how men say they want an uninhibited woman, a woman who will try anything, a freak if you will - yet when a woman expresses herself that way she is now labeled a "skank, slut, whore,etc. I wish men would make up their minds what they want. I read a lot about how women cheat for emotional needs and men cheat for sexual needs. I find this a load of crap because as a woman and talking to my female friends - our sexual needs are far more dominant when we see a handsome man. I think some men would like to think that women need the emotional rather than the sexual. More and more women are dating and marrying younger men and I don't think it's because they provide better emotional support.

[Woggle]

I know this sounds sexist but many men distinguish between women they screw and play around with and women they marry. When we are in that player stage we want to mess around with the uninhibited sexual women but but when we decide to settle down we want a nice and innocent woman. As for me as long as my wife is faithful to me now I could care less what she did when she was single.

[Cecelius]

I don't really know.. it's all conjecture.

 

For the first time in my life, I see women who understand the "double" standard...

 

I'm a man, I want sex. If I get it too easy or it's been given to freely, then it's less valuable than it could be (doesn't make her skanky or evil or otherwise). It's less valuable because she values it less (or, because she is unlikely to value it more with me if she's done it with everyone). It's less valuable because it is less singular. It's less valuable because it probably isn't real.

 

If I substitute "woman" for "man" above, and change "sex" to "access to his heart and mind in a way that is unique and different from other, previous women" I think the "double" standard works both ways.

 

There is no principled reason to assert that a man cannot assign value to sexual congress in excess of what women may assign it, any more than men can chastise women for valuing feelings of love more than men do.

[Cecelius]

Google: retroactive jealousy.

 

 

-To the OP, I would agree -- you should uncover whether this is the result of some kind of merely emotional state (be warned that much of what you find will include answers such as medication for what is described as the man's problem).

 

Once you are comfortable that you have those insecurities under control, you can explore whether this is a value assessment or not. If you were upset because she's been with a few guys before you, that's one thing -- doing 2 guys is still, in some folks' opinion, far out there enough to warrant a second thought.

[blind_otter]

If you were upset because she's been with a few guys before you, that's one thing -- doing 2 guys is still, in some folks' opinion, far out there enough to warrant a second thought.

 

So you are proposing that this man consider divorcing his wife of 9 years because he can't get over something that she did 16 years ago?

 

I think I just laughed so hard that I pissed myself.

[lindya]

I think you both are probably right here but I don't have a problem with the other past relationships at all.....just this one. Spectre said it was trampy....I think he's right. In fantasy it was all good. In reality not so much. Rember though, I was no saint....just never had a threesome. But, I would have if it would have come about. I think what I'm really struggling with here is that I dated (if you could call it dating) was sort of a trampy kind of girl in college. They were fun, mostly for the night. But I never wanted to marry one. Now I find out 12 years that I think I did. Hypocritical on part.

 

Kind of stuck in that "have fun with wild girls, marry a nice one" thing.

 

Perhaps it would be more accurate (not to mention realistic) for people to think in terms of marrying mature, responsible adults who have grown beyond their wild days as your wife has. Of course when you were 20 you probably had some cosy little fantasy about getting married to a nice girl - but what exactly is a nice girl? Anyone who hasn't done a couple of wild things here and there? Someone who blew 120 different guys during her college years - but can proudly admit to never having been involved in a double penetration? I'm never quite certain what people mean when they talk about "nice girls" - as it seems to me that a lot of the "nice girls" who sit in judgement of other women have a fair bit in their past that they needn't be overly proud of.

 

Surely you wouldn't want that type in your life? Or would you feel happier with a woman who just didn't stimulate you emotionally, intellectually or physically - but who could boast an entirely virtuous past? Or the "nice girl" who could stimulate you in all those ways, had a bit of a wild past....but preserved your ego by lying to you about her past?

 

Given that you're studying counselling, you'll know all about core beliefs - and how our greatest psychological traumas often come when a negative core belief about ourself is tapped into. So which one of yours has this disclosure about the DP that happened 16 years ago opened up?

[Woggle]

The only thing that should matter right now is whether she is faithful to you or not. I would not get involved with a woman that had a history of cheating or dating married men but if she did some freaky stuff as a single woman it is no big deal to me.

[shoedevil]

Kind of stuck in that "have fun with wild girls, marry a nice one" thing.

This is why I don't understand the OP's problem with his wife's past behavior. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. The time to address this issue would have been nine years ago, and even then the matter of hypocrisy on his part would have to come up...

I'm never quite certain what people mean when they talk about "nice girls"

Maybe "nice guy/girl" = someone who shares your values, someone good enough to spend the rest of your life with. From that point of view, the OP's wife is a "nice girl", as they both had their own casual exploits when they were younger and have since settled down. The details and particulars aren't really relevant. I wouldn't have chosen her for a partner, but to each his own...

Or would you feel happier with a woman who just didn't stimulate you emotionally, intellectually or physically - but who could boast an entirely virtuous past? Or the "nice girl" who could stimulate you in all those ways, had a bit of a wild past....but preserved your ego by lying to you about her past?

The OP may have put himself in that kind of pickle, but I think for most men and women this is a false dilemma. One need not take one without the other. A modest person could be very passionate in a relationship, whereas a libertine in the same situation could be a basket case. It's never a black-and-white issue. Suggesting that someone who has tried to lead a "virtuous" (ethical, in my lexicon) life is therefore unexciting and without passion, well, then virtue really has no value in that sense. Then again, virtue tends to be a bad word these days...

[lindya]

The OP may have put himself in that kind of pickle, but I think for most men and women this is a false dilemma. One need not take one without the other. A modest person could be very passionate in a relationship, whereas a libertine in the same situation could be a basket case. It's never a black-and-white issue. Suggesting that someone who has tried to lead a "virtuous" (ethical, in my lexicon) life is therefore unexciting and without passion, well, then virtue really has no value in that sense. Then again, virtue tends to be a bad word these days...

 

I don't think virtue lacks value if, as you've described, virtue involves having one's own code of ethics that one works hard to adhere by. That code, and the sexual boundaries within it, can vary from person to person...but for me the ethical aspect of it involves having boundaries of some description. After all, without those boundaries and a set of standards, how does a person identify who they actually are? For some, the boundaries might develop after a few experiences that they wouldn't want to repeat. Others might have just always had a very strong sense of who they are and where they draw the line. From the way he described her, the OP's wife perhaps falls into the former category.

 

The problems - as you and others have mentioned - come when a person creates a set of standards that they would expect a partner to live by, but that they themselves feel exempted from. The double standards. I do have very little sympathy for men who exercise those double standards then feel wounded when the partner doesn't live up to their expectations. Those guys take the view that they should spend years sleeping with all and sundry, then settle down with women who have followed a far more selective path. I understand that they want to have their cake and eat it in that way, but I do think that in the vast majority of cases they're dreaming futile dreams if they believe it's actually going to happen.

[norajane]

The problems - as you and others have mentioned - come when a person creates a set of standards that they would expect a partner to live by, but that they themselves feel exempted from. The double standards. I do have very little sympathy for men who exercise those double standards then feel wounded when the partner doesn't live up to their expectations. Those guys take the view that they should spend years sleeping with all and sundry, then settle down with women who have followed a far more selective path. I understand that they want to have their cake and eat it in that way, but I do think that in the vast majority of cases they're dreaming futile dreams if they believe it's actually going to happen.

 

I think it's the height of hypocrisy for men to have those expectations. What makes these man-ho's think they are such great prizes for the more selective woman? It's stupid and it's time that women are not penalized for exploring their sexuality any more than men are.

[shoedevil]

The problems - as you and others have mentioned - come when a person creates a set of standards that they would expect a partner to live by, but that they themselves feel exempted from. The double standards. I do have very little sympathy for men who exercise those double standards then feel wounded when the partner doesn't live up to their expectations. Those guys take the view that they should spend years sleeping with all and sundry, then settle down with women who have followed a far more selective path. I understand that they want to have their cake and eat it in that way, but I do think that in the vast majority of cases they're dreaming futile dreams if they believe it's actually going to happen.

All true, and well said, as always... but I don't think this specific problem comes up very often. Maybe it seems that way here on LS, where "every man does this and then expects that", etc. I've never had any female friends who were "penalized for exploring their sexuality" (whatever that means), nor have I met any men who felt entitled to sleep around as much as they wanted and then expected their girlfriends to be virgins. I certainly wouldn't cheer any of those guys on, quite the opposite. I think that's just another stark, black-and-white dichotomy, and I've never run into it in the real world. Maybe in other, more traditional countries it still goes on. By and large, the men and women I've known have been pretty moderate in their views and behavior. I remember a sociolology professor in college once told me: "You'd be surprised just how average everybody else really is." But you really wouldn't know that by watching television or going on the internet!

[Adunaphel]

Adunaphel: Ya, for a guy it is different; I hate to say it. I don't know if you're F or M but I'm going to bet you're a F.

 

Good guess.

 

See, for a man sex is very big deal. For women the emotions are what really matter.

 

True.

 

To some guys a woman who sleeps around is a slut.

To some gals a man who sleeps around is a slut, but if he was emotionally involved with every girl he had sex with it's different, and he might still be a nice guy even if he is an easy lay.

 

 

Men have a hard time showing their feelings and sex is sometimes the only place they can do it and feel comfortable. When you get married I think most men would say sex and those private areas of his wife are sacred. And, to think of them being used in abusive ways is really hard to take.

 

Concentrate on the fact that she was not your wife.

She did not even know you.

You are thinking about two guys banging your wife.

Think about two guys banging a random college gal.

(that is, if you really *have* to think about it)

 

A man when he's young wants to bang sluts…it's pretty cut and dry.

 

You must have known at least some guy in college who would not bang sluts. They can't live *all* in my area, can they?

 

It sounds almost like you are trying to find some "everyone does it at that age" excuse.

Like you needed an excuse.

You don't. Nothing wrong with that (it is treating the girls badly that is quite wrong, but this is a different story).

 

Come on guys..you know I'm right. But in the end he just wants his wife not to have been one of them. Hypocritical, yes. But there it is. And, I really challenge most of the guys here to tell me different if it were their wife.

 

Quoting lindya..

 

Of course when you were 20 you probably had some cosy little fantasy about getting married to a nice girl - but what exactly is a nice girl? Anyone who hasn't done a couple of wild things here and there? Someone who blew 120 different guys during her college years - but can proudly admit to never having been involved in a double penetration?

 

You are not bothered by how many people she slept with... or little bothered anyway. What difference does it make?

 

Apart from the fact that you could not try a threesome(but would have)in your younger years, it does not make much difference at all.

 

I still got the feeling that *this has nothing to do with your wife's morality*, but that this is about you.

 

Out of curiosity...would you have a problem with your wife masturbating with two vibrators when you are not present?

If you didn't know about this threesome thing.

 

I wouldn't have felt better had these guys treated her badly; in fact I think they did. And your last comment it not far fetched at all.

 

Yet your wife did not say that "it was a mistake".

That shows some balls imo.

Your wife certainly does not sound like an hypocryte.

 

 

Only the opposite of the way I see it. I don't think these guys treated her with respect, I think they treated her like a piece of trash. What's worse is she wanted them too. That's why I have a problem with her experimentation. I think they pretty much treated here the way I would have back then. And, that bothers me too.

 

I am very limited so I cannot really believe it possible that a woman who is happy with herself can be happy with being treated like a piece of trash.

 

So either they respected her -or made her believe they did - or she was not happy - either in that specific occasion, or in general.

(Or, as I said, I am very limited)

 

I think there are many reasons why a woman might try a threesome. Some of them do not have much to do with how much a woman can enjoy wild sex.

 

I've always told her that she got the best of me and I was glad I hadn't met her back then. Now more so then ever.

 

Keep in mind that you got the best of her too.

[Walk]

And James8+ is still missing in action....

 

[Cecelius]

So you are proposing that this man consider divorcing his wife of 9 years because he can't get over something that she did 16 years ago?

 

I think I just laughed so hard that I pissed myself.

 

Don't think I said what he should do -- he's a man, so he does what he chooses. I was pointing out where I see a difference between normal nice girl type behavior and matters that may be out of the range (for him -- I know they would be for me).

[amerikajin]

I'm gonna be blunt: You wanna know why you cant get past it? because what your wife did was trampy, and something usually reserved for pornstars.

 

Most guys would be turned off by the fact their wife did something like that. I consider going "wild" just partying a lot, drinking, etc. I dont know why the cliche is you have to screw a lot of people in college.

 

Anyways, basically that sums it up. People always talk about not wanting to speak about the past, and the cliche is always "its in the past, its over" but everyone is so quick to forget your past is what makes you the person you are today, so it matters. I think its kind of rude that your wife began blurting this out to you as well, unless you asked.

 

This is why I think once people are gonna get serious they should have a serious talk about their past experiences. That way 20 years down the line you dont find out something that makes it hard to look your wife in the face.

 

What a bunch of crap.

 

It's o.k. if a guy goes out and has sex with woman after woman when he's a wild young buck - oh, I know you'll say, "Well, no I don't really agree with that either" but that's not the point, the point is that society doesn't really seem to have a problem with a man's sexual liberation, but any woman who for a moment at any time in her life feels liberated is a slut. F**k that - women get horny just like men do. Deal with it, brah.

 

But more to the point, having sex and enjoying it is not a sin. We're so damned prude and buttoned-up in this society that we basically demonize sexual desire. It's hard to have open, straight talk about sex because of all the hypocritical religious kooks who live in the country.

 

OP,

 

Get over yourself. She has sexual desire just like you do. She's adventurous, and she's obviously had the ability to seduce men over the course of her life. She's obviously attractive to many, but she stayed with you. I think you should feel honored and secure in knowing that.

 

My guess is that you're insecure because deep down inside you think that, as a man, you're supposed to have accomplished more sexually than she has. Maybe you see her as having outdone you in a way, and that probably gets to you whether you're aware of it or not. Again, get over it. This is petty stuff. It's not like she went out and had a threesome last week with two of her co-workers. That would be an entirely different story.

[James8888]

Hey guys, sorry I've been MIA here. Been very busy with work. Your responses have been great and each one gives me more to think about. I'm doing quite well with this now...a little time has passed and more of my rational thinking is taking over. I have to leave again for the weekend but will get back on this thread next week and try to give some feedback to many of your questions or responses. I will say this though; I am a counseling student and I understand the whole problem here is probably with myself and what I have made up in my mind. But, just because I know these things doesn't make me any less human and immune to "stupid" human reaction. It's always easier to be the one listening then to be the one on the couch.

 

If you guys are up for it I’d like you to try a little test and see how this works for you. Try to think of something that would really bother you that your partner would do or was an act very sluty (man or woman) and hard for you to accept your partner doing. Now you just found out he or she just did it last weekend. What are you feeling right now.....close your eyes and think about it. Now let that sit for a minute.

 

 

 

 

 

Now your partner just came back to and said, I was just kidding. It did happen but it happened way before I was with you and then laughs it off. He or she states that it was way in his or her past so it's no big deal and it shouldn’t bother you. Do you still feel any of those feeling you had before? To have some of those feelings somewhat is human. To understand them takes effort and deep thinking. To accept them takes time I think. If it doesn’t then I’d question if you really care or are maybe a little out of touch with your feelings.

 

I’ll leave you with that. Have a good weekend and I look forward to reading all these. It'll surely take me a while. Wow!

[Walk]

Try to think of something that would really bother you that your partner would do or was an act very sluty (man or woman) and hard for you to accept your partner doing. Now you just found out he or she just did it last weekend. What are you feeling right now.....close your eyes and think about it.

 

Are you saying she implied it had happened while with you, but then changed her story? Or just using this as a hypothetical example? Did she say up front that it had been in the past? I'm kind of confused....