Troubled with wife's past

[amerikajin]

And the fact remains that you do generalize quite a bit, based upon some "people you've met".

 

And the fact remains, if you read this man's posts, you'll see I'm right -- I usually am right, but that's another thread.

 

But seriously, I called it early on: I thought he was having issues with the fact that his wife had surpassed him in some respects, in effect turning the tables on his manhood by being more sexually adventurous than he, and by his own admission, that's exactly what was going through his mind. Pardon me if I find that to be a bit of a double-standard.

 

And in case the OP's reading this exchange, I'm not calling you out - I think the kinds of thoughts you've been going through are common among men. A man does not like to think of himself as being sexually outdone by his lover, particularly because society conditions men to believe that they are supposed to be the ones who have more libido than women.

 

Can I prove what I am saying statistically, no -- but this kind of issue is difficult to prove with questionnaires. Not using 'reliable and documented sources' might seem lame and it may not follow the standard decorum of a internet message board debate, but I am confident that what I am saying is true - I've seen it with my own eyes enough to know that it is true, and apparently I am not the only one here who has reached that conclusion. Shoedevil, I think what you are trying to say is that not everyone falls within the description of the generalizations that I make, and I don't think I would ever dispute that argument - indeed, generalizations are sloppy. But they are called generalizations for a reason, and there is a kernel of truth to them, and in some cases, more than a few kernels of truth. Therefore, my conclusion is, in my experience, and in the experience of a lot of people I know - including those on this forum - there indeed is a double-standard for sexual conduct as it applies to the respective genders. I would say that the double-standard is changing, thanks to social influences such as Sex and the City which are in effect bucking the status quo, but the double-standard is alive and well.

 

What I base my beliefs on are science and statistics, opinion surveys and sociological research, not anecdotes and hearsay. I've cited a few of them. For the most part, they conclude the following:

 

1. A majority of people (men & women) believe a vast sexual double standard exists in society.

2. A majority of people (men & women) deny using a sexual double standard themselves. They say they use a single standard when choosing partners.

3. A majority of people (men & women) believe that both men & women who sleep around are unattractive.

4. Both men & women report similar numbers of sexual partners and similar types of sexual behavior, when surveys are conducted randomly & anonymously.

 

It’s what a great many people say they believe, and they happen to be a part of “society.” It's interesting that 1. seems to be contradicted by 2-4. You can say everybody always lies about this stuff, and throw out all the research that’s been done. So then what do you base your belief on? Whatever the hell you want, I guess…

 

I think what your research shows is that research is often invalid with respect to this subject. People want to say the right things, even though they know that deep down inside they might behave otherwise in the moment of truth. It's sort of like asking someone 'Do you believe lying is wrong?' and then asking someone at the bottom of the page 'Do you sometimes tell a lie?' Or it's like asking someone if racism is wrong - of course people want to give the moral response. The question is, how do they behave in real situations? I think anecdotes are indeed valid, though statistically subject to wild discrepancies in terms of having any kind of precision, as anyone would readily admit.

 

blind_otter, of whom I have infinite respect for, often points out “retroactive jealousy” in these kinds of situations. It’s a very interesting theory, and very well might apply to the OP’s situation. He's trying to improve himself and his marriage, and I don't know how that's evidence of a double standard. But here are a few other psychological concepts that I think apply to some people in this discussion (feel free to Google them):

 

The evidence of the double-standard is not encapsulated by the vague conclusion that the OP is 'trying to improve himself and his marriage'; the evidence of the double-standard is apparent when he on the one hand talks openly about his sexual fantasies (which if I am not mistaken include at the very least fantasizing about a 3-some, regardless of whether he'd actually go through with it or not)....while on the other hand being taken aback when she discloses that she purportedly herself engaged in said fantasy - that's a double-standard or hypocritical, whatever words you use to describe it. Mind you, I'm not trying to malign the OP, because a lot of men (myself included) might fall into the same trap. I'm just saying it's something he needs to understand, and I think he needs to process it as quickly as possible and accept the fact that his wife is every bit as much a sexual animal as he is. The longer he takes to get over this, the more potentially damaging this is going to be to his relationship. We all have ideals, and ideals are wonderful, but relationships are best lived within the context of reality. How stupid would it be if this drags on and really hurts their relationship in the years to come? It wouldn't be because his wife is a "ho-bag", it would be entirely because his insecurities of having a woman out-perform him sexually have been exposed and it would be because he is unable to get over himself. To some extent, in light of the recent revelation that his wife made this story up, it would also be because she is a weaver of tales, which is something that needs to be addressed at some point, I think. I don't understand why she felt compelled to lie about it, then change her story back. Maybe she really did do the threesome but felt pressured into lying just so he could get past this.

 

 

belief perseverance: the persistence of one's held beliefs despite evidence to the contrary.

 

confirmation bias: a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions.

 

But to your question, I’m offended when anyone (man or woman) is degraded with insulting names, as I’ve been (not for sleeping around, in fact just the opposite). I’m offended by any sexual double standard, if it actually exists. I’m offended by promiscuity, either male or female, and celebration of it in popular culture. I’m also offended by real double standards such as when fathers are denied physical custody of their children 75-80% of the time. But here’s a better question… why all the upset over this sexual double standard if nobody really practices it? Or put another way… what’s the point in arguing over something that doesn’t seem to exist?

 

I think this last paragraph is tangential to the discussion - you're now trying to analyze the motives behind other contributors to this discussion and this is an exercise that's highly speculative at best. The part about 'belief perseverance might be valid were it not for the fact that there is no reliable 'evidence to the contrary'. If you want to submit that the controversy is debatable from both sides and inconclusive, I guess I'll have to concede that I don't have evidence that proves you wrong, but nor do you have evidence that disproves any of what I've said. And I'll stick by my anecdotes, because they're quite relevant to my experience, I would think.

[shoedevil]

I usually am right, but that's another thread.

Well, now I know exactly where you're coming from. In my experience, people who have this mindset don't let reason get in the way of their beliefs. I think that's where belief perseverence comes into play. Most people believe in a higher power, too, which is fine. I personally don't see the point in believing in anything without it first being proven. I've had to change my mind on this and other issues in the past based upon things I've learned. I think that's part of the maturity process. You learn something new and choose to adjust accordingly.

I think what you are trying to say is that not everyone falls within the description of the generalizations that I make.

If you place any value on statistical research, then it's pretty clear that most men and women by their own admission don't fall within your generalization. Then again, you can always say everybody lies about sex. I think that's a simplistic counter-argument. If the survey is large, random, and anonymous, I tend to take most people at their word.

I would say that the double-standard is changing, thanks to social influences such as Sex and the City which are in effect bucking the status quo, but the double-standard is alive and well.

Alive and well, and with a mountain of evidence to prove it, right? IMHO, a double standard is just as bad as a really low single standard. I wouldn't call that social progress.

...the vague conclusion that the OP is 'trying to improve himself and his marriage'

That's why he's posting here, isn't it?

I think what your research shows is that research is often invalid with respect to this subject....nor do you have evidence that disproves any of what I've said. And I'll stick by my anecdotes, because they're quite relevant to my experience, I would think.

I didn't do the research, just pointed it out. But I guess there's no reason to study human sexuality at all, right? If you bothered to read any of the articles mentioned by Walk or myself, you'd find that they cast doubt on some of the popular stereotypes you say are true. And disproving what you've said isn't possible or even worthwhile, for this reason: your beliefs are entirely based upon a small group of anecdotes that may or may not be true. You're welcome to believe whatever you want, and ignore all evidence to the contrary. You also welcome to join the Flat Earth Society, if it's still around.

 

In my mind, when a man feels entitled to sleep around as much as he wants, then proceeds to do so, and then insists that his wife or girlfriend be virginal or of limited sexual experience, that's a double standard. When any serious research concludes that most men do this, then I'll believe the double standard is alive and well.

[amerikajin]

If you place any value on statistical research, then it's pretty clear that most men and women by their own admission don't fall within your generalization. Then again, you can always say everybody lies about sex. I think that's a simplistic counter-argument. If the survey is large, random, and anonymous, I tend to take most people at their word.

 

I place value on statistical research which comports with what I've experienced myself; if it otherwise conflicts with what I've seen, I tend to be skeptical. I'm skeptical of research that indicates that there's no double-standard, and apparently at least one of the surveys you referenced concludes that others are as well. Irrespective of what the other two or three surveys conclude, I'm wondering why people would believe that a double-standard exists if, in fact, it does not exist - is it that they are brainwashed by the 'liberal media'? I'm guessing that it's because the people who've responded, like me, have seen it for themselves and conclude that they know that this double-standard exists.

 

That's why he's posting here, isn't it?

 

Re-read what I wrote. What he has disclosed is, in fact, a double standard. For some reason you're being careful to avoid that obvious fact, which is further proof of the said double-standard. It's a case in point, but you're going to great lengths to avoid admission of that obvious fact.

 

In my mind, when a man feels entitled to sleep around as much as he wants, then proceeds to do so, and then insists that his wife or girlfriend be virginal or of limited sexual experience, that's a double standard. When any serious research concludes that most men do this, then I'll believe the double standard is alive and well.

 

You're creating a straw-man argument.

 

One does not have to go to that extreme dichotomy of thought in order to be guilty of using a double-standard. The double-standard is nothing more than having one set of expectations for yourself as a man while having a different set of expectations imposed upon your partner as a woman, even if they are ever so slight. If a guy fantasizes and talks openly about how good it would be to engage in a threesome and then gets upset when he finds out that his lover engaged once in that same kind of conduct...that's a double standard. And that's exactly what we have in this situation, even though he may have never have thought of himself as someone who would use a double-standard, the reality is that when confronted with reality, he does. I submit that this is typical, and that is why your research is confounded by reality, and therefore, not necessarily valid. What people think and say they believe when asked a series of vague and fluffy questions on a survey, and what they actually believe when the situation is applied to them are often two entirely different things. Capisce?

[shoedevil]

I'm wondering why people would believe that a double-standard exists if, in fact, it does not exist

The origin of the belief in the double standard (my paraphrased opinions based upon college studies as a History major): historically in the West, men were punished far less severely for having sex outside of marriage than women were. However, they were still expected to have sex only within the marriage contract. Due to the lack of reliable contraception and the prevalence of STDs, promiscuity was uncommon prior to the 20th Century. The double standard can therefore be proven to have existed in the past by the historical record. Fast-forward to the 1960s: the belief emerged among some feminists (not a majority) that most men were sleeping around, and that "society" was rewarding them for doing so. At the same time, a small percentage of men took this belief as a green light to sleep around. This belief persists to the present-day despite evidence (not 100%, but significant) to the contrary.

 

*****

Confirmation Bias and the Sexual Double Standard

Sex Roles: A Journal Of Research, Volume 54, Numbers 1-2/January, 2006

Michael J. Marks & R. Chris Fraley, Department of Psychology, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

 

Abstract: In contemporary Western societies it is widely believed that there is a sexual double standard such that men are rewarded for sexual activity, whereas women are derogated for sexual activity. This pervasive belief may result in a confirmation bias such that people tend to notice information that confirms the double standard and fail to notice information that refutes it. Two studies were conducted to test this hypothesis. In both studies, participants read vignettes about a target man or a woman that contained an equal number of positive and negative comments regarding the target's sexuality. Participants recalled more information consistent with the double standard than inconsistent with it.

*****

What he has disclosed is, in fact, a double standard... For some reason you're being careful to avoid that obvious fact, which is further proof of the said double-standard... but you're going to great lengths to avoid admission of that obvious fact.

I have to learn to decode your language (obvious fact = biased assumption). You've already declared that you're "right most of the time", so it follows that anybody who dares to disagree is completely wrong. The fact that I haven't condemned him for expressing his emotions proves that I'm tactful, not that the double standard exists (that’s quite a reach).

 

The OP never said he engaged in a threesome. He admitted to having casual sex (not group sex), so if he had a problem with his wife having simple casual sex with another person, then I’d agree he was guilty of practicing a double standard. I doubt he’s going to leave his wife over this, or go out and have a threesome. So where's the double standard in his behavior? One can fantasize about something and not actually go through with it. I think most people do that at some point in their lives. Some people fantasize about hurting others and never take any action, but wouldn’t want to be hurt themselves either.

You're creating a straw-man argument... The double-standard is nothing more than having one set of expectations for yourself as a man while having a different set of expectations imposed upon your partner as a woman, even if they are ever so slight.

It’s not a straw-man argument, but rather a specific example of how the double standard would be practiced. It also points out the absurdity of the premise that most men actually think in those terms. Where is the evidence that a double standard of behavior is actually practiced by most men?

 

You’ve redefined the double standard so broadly and so loosely that it would probably apply to every situation no matter how trivial. That's a fallacy of definition. You could redefine the word "liar" to be someone who doesn't readily volunteer the truth even without being asked for it. According to you, me just thinking about doing something, and then thinking someone else shouldn't do the same thing, would make me guilty of practicing a double standard, even if I don’t actually do it myself or tell the other person not to do it. What man or woman doesn't think about himself or herself first before making a decision? Talk about thought police!

I submit that this is typical, and that is why your research is confounded by reality, and therefore, not necessarily valid.

Again, assumptions based upon no scientific studies or conclusions. As I predicted, any information you don't "like" is therefore wrong. For example, suppose that most everyone I've met in my life was left-handed. Using your reasoning, I would be justified in concluding that most all people are left-handed, and could ignore any evidence to the contrary, despite the scientific fact that only 12% of people are actually left-handed. But then again, I don't claim to have a monopoly on the truth...

 

*****

Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary

double standard (n.): a set of principles that applies differently and usually more rigorously to one group of people or circumstances than to another; especially: a code of morals that applies more severe standards of sexual behavior to women than to men.

*****

 

Notice the phrase "more severe". That means that men were restricted in some way as well, just not as much as women. Nowhere is it codified in U.S. Law that men are allowed greater sexual freedom than women, so that's not evidence. Popular culture for the most part is based upon fictional perceptions, not actual reality. People can and do choose to turn off the television and not let it influence their lives. But consider this: the U.S. population is 80% Christian, 2% Jewish, 2% Muslim, and 1% Hindu. None of these religions endorse male promiscuity, in fact quite the opposite. Assuming people follow even the most basic tenants of their religions, can you reconcile this with your belief that most men practice the double standard?

 

My olive branch to show I at least have an open mind: maybe ~10% of men (alphaboy comes to mind) might actually still practice a double standard today. And I think a small percentage of women might also practice a kind of reverse double-standard. But assuming that's all correct, it means that only a small minority of people are involved. I don't see how that equates to a vast, entrenched, sexist social institution. I think most men and women are pretty consistent in their sexual beliefs and practices. I don't have the gall to suggest millions of people are lying. You mentioned all these men you've met who practiced the double standard… what percentage of all men that you’ve met in your life practiced it?

[amerikajin]

To quote the original poster:

 

"Now this is 4 years before I even met her. I've done a lot of things in my past too but never got a threesome...but always wanted one."

 

There, that ought to refresh your memory, Shoedevil. Now tell me this is NOT a double-standard at least in thought if not in practice. He always wanted one, which translates to "I would have done a threesome if the opportunity had presented itself, but it didn't in my case; however, my wife was able to do a threesome, and well, I just think that's slutty"

 

As I said, bro, that's a double-standard. What part of this do you not quite comprehend?!?!??! Anyone who's following this exchange can see this quite clearly - you just don't want to admit that you've been proven wrong. So you keep trying to attack things that are tangential to the discussion, such as the idea of whether a double-standard exists in society in fact or not. That's something that exists but is difficult to prove or disprove because the results of surveys can vary wildly depending on which culture you survey, when you survey them, and what kinds of questions you ask. You've cited sources who agree with you but you've not in any way proven that a double-standard doesn't exist.

 

"Oh, but I've got data, see! See!"

 

No, you've got junk conclusions.

[shoedevil]

Now tell me this is NOT a double-standard at least in thought if not in practice.

He wanted a threesome when he was single (before he met his wife), it didn't happen, he's now married with kids, end of story. It's not a double standard in practice at all. Thanks for proving my point! Lesson of the day, since it obviously went over your head: what people do is more important than what they say.

As I said, bro, that's a double-standard. What part of this do you not quite comprehend?!?!??!...You've cited sources who agree with you but you've not in any way proven that a double-standard doesn't exist.

Well, I don't have to prove something doesn't exist. Any basic philosophy class would have taught you that. Boy, you really need to get a handle on your egomania! All this coming from a someone who couldn't even back up any of his opinions with a single fact. Some people really can't handle knowledge, or show much apparently. And thanks for answering even one of my questions. Bravo... very intelligent, very mature. Go back to the playground. When you're ready to join the adults and have a civilized conversation, let me know.

[amerikajin]

He wanted a threesome when he was single (before he met his wife), it didn't happen, he's now married with kids, end of story. It's not a double standard in practice at all. Thanks for proving my point! Lesson of the day, since it obviously went over your head: what people do is more important than what they say.

 

I will try to my best to explain how this works, Shodevil. Wish me luck.

 

 

Of course it's a double-standard, Shoedevil. By his own admission, he would have done the exact same thing if the opportunity had presented itself; the difference between he and his wife is, the opportunity did present itself for her, just not for him. So while he sees nothing wrong with him doing a threesome, he now finds fault with the fact that she once had a threesome. That is a double-standard.

 

Well, I don't have to prove something doesn't exist. Any basic philosophy class would have taught you that. Boy, you really need to get a handle on your egomania! All this coming from a someone who couldn't even back up any of his opinions with a single fact. Some people really can't handle knowledge, or show much apparently. And thanks for answering even one of my questions. Bravo... very intelligent, very mature. Go back to the playground. When you're ready to join the adults and have a civilized conversation, let me know.

 

Typical response from a constipated conservative.

[electric_sheep]

Of course, norajane is "theoretically" right. She is intellectually right.

 

Funny how that doesn't mean a damn thing though, isn't it ?

 

Funny how Albert Ellis and REBT can seem so full of **** when your emotions are f*cking with you.

 

Funny how all that **** about Unconditional Self/Other Acceptance and whatever else, ultimately, doesn't do anything to make you feel any less alone in the world.

 

Funny how what seem like old, conservative and antiquated ideas of society, in the final analysis, don't always seem like they were such bad ideas after all.

 

I wish I had more words of wisdom for you brother. Life and emotions can be a bitch. Everything can seem so ambiguous and pointless and devoid of authenticity or lasting value. Ideals crumble like sand castles.

 

On the bright side, feelings are just as ephemeral and fluid as everything else. So, whats bugging you today may simply make you smirk tomarrow.

[James8888]

Right on Electric. It actually is amazing to me how much this doesn't bother me like it did. I am sort of smirking. I guess emotions are fluid. What's weird too is how you hit on the Ellis thing. I know that stuff inside and out and talk to people all the time about irrational thinking. But, when it's your own mind it still a tricky area. Good insight.

 

Things are going well all....just for an update for all. The fantasy talks are back and good again. My wife has even agreed to go to a strip club with me some night to indulge a bit of fantasy for both of us. Harmless fun you know. But, I feel I'm a pretty lucky guy to have a wife that would do that. I don’t know many wives that would do that. So, the more I think about this thing the more I think her past has been a culmination of what she is today....a really fun loving, honest and sort of kinky wife to be with. It's actually made us closer.....maybe in a bit of a twisted way but I’m OK with that. To be honesty this has definitely made us closer. In the end I think this whole thing will make us stronger.

 

later,

James

[electric_sheep]

I actually really like Albert Ellis. His ideas have helped me out a lot.

 

Sometimes it seems like his theories are oversimplifications though. My girlfriend and I laugh that all of Albert Ellis can be summarized by late night host Conon O'Brian's regular quip to the audience, "Keep cool my babies".

 

Sometimes it's just damn hard to "keep cool" though, even after it's pointed out how irrational your thoughts are.

 

He has had a lasting impact on my personal outlook and philosophy though, and I have no doubt I'm all the better for it.

 

Glad things are looking up. Seems like you only had to look at things from a fresh angel. I'm truly convinced we create our own realities to a large part, by what we think and what we choose to give value to. Thoughts proceed emotion, as they say, and things are only as important and special as we make them. To a large extent we get to decide. It just doesn't always feel that way.

 

I went through something very similiar to your experience, and it's all a distant memory now for the most part. Often time is the best healer of all.

[Wheresdalove]

I am in the same situation with my fiancee'. I want to leave her so bad but i love her so much. I have lost a lot of respect for her. Me and her were "kind of" dating when it happened with her.

It took place bout 2 months before we decided to be official couple and stop messing around. We were talking about our past and she told me one night.Same scenario ...alcohol and marijuana was the influence though. It happened unexpectedlly and now she regrets it.

Regardless its still hard for me to deal with. Personally i feel like she is unworthy of marrying me. Im sorry i feel this way but thats how i feel. I love her so much but the thought of it makes my stomache turn.

I thought she was the one for me...but the woman that i plan on marrying would have never done anything like this.

I feel your pain 100%...I cant sleep i cant look at her the same..everything she says and does i relate it to the 3some..but we are still together though i dont know for how long.

I cheat on her cause i feel like im getting revenge but that doesnt help...this whole situation is torture actually...I should have found out in the beginning and left her alone..

[norajane]

I have lost a lot of respect for her.

 

Personally i feel like she is unworthy of marrying me.

 

I thought she was the one for me...but the woman that i plan on marrying would have never done anything like this.

 

I cheat on her cause i feel like im getting revenge but that doesnt help...

 

You lost respect for her because of something she did before you were a couple, and yet you haven't lost any respect for yourself because you are cheating on her now that you are a couple????

 

I'm sorry, but you get no sympathy! You are not worthy of HER. You are cheating on your girl and lying to her about it!

[ehead]

norajane makes a seriously good point.

 

Look, nobody is going to knock you for having convictions and attitudes about sex. That's fine. Maybe you should ask yourself if your attitudes represent a double standard though ? Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I don't know. Regardless, they are your attitudes and you are free to have them.

 

I guess you came here wandering what the "right thing" to do is ?

 

Well, figure out what your attitudes are, and if you still don't think she is the girl for you, tell her so. You need to either accept her or not accept her.

 

What you shouldn't do is use this as an excuse for your own morally shady behavior.

 

Don't get me wrong, you certainly wouldn't be the first person to do that, and I can even see the appeal.

 

But, I assume you came here because you want someone to knock you around a bit and REMIND you of what you should do. I say remind because, frankly, you knew what the right thing to do was all along.

[Sal Paradise]

I am in the same situation with my fiancee'. I want to leave her so bad but i love her so much. I have lost a lot of respect for her. Me and her were "kind of" dating when it happened with her.

It took place bout 2 months before we decided to be official couple and stop messing around. We were talking about our past and she told me one night.Same scenario ...alcohol and marijuana was the influence though. It happened unexpectedlly and now she regrets it.

Regardless its still hard for me to deal with. Personally i feel like she is unworthy of marrying me. Im sorry i feel this way but thats how i feel. I love her so much but the thought of it makes my stomache turn.

I thought she was the one for me...but the woman that i plan on marrying would have never done anything like this.

I feel your pain 100%...I cant sleep i cant look at her the same..everything she says and does i relate it to the 3some..but we are still together though i dont know for how long.

I cheat on her cause i feel like im getting revenge but that doesnt help...this whole situation is torture actually...I should have found out in the beginning and left her alone..

 

Sounds like to me that her past made you feel insecure about your sexuality. So you cheated to make yourself feel better. Now you resent her because you blame her for your cheating. You're using something she did before you were with her as an excuse to cheat. Facing the truth about what you did would mean facing the guilt. It's easier to deal with resentment and anger than guilt. It's easier to blame someone than yourself.

 

The problem isn't her being worthy of you. The problem is you're not worthy of her. You felt threatened by her past. It made you feel small so you commited the act of small lying coward to make yourself feel more like a man. A real man wouldn't cheat on a girl who loves him. A real man would realize that her past is just that, the past. A real man would be secure enough in his own sexuality that he wouldn't feel threatened by her sexual past.

[Kokles]

Sounds like to me that her past made you feel insecure about your sexuality. So you cheated to make yourself feel better. Now you resent her because you blame her for your cheating. You're using something she did before you were with her as an excuse to cheat. Facing the truth about what you did would mean facing the guilt. It's easier to deal with resentment and anger than guilt. It's easier to blame someone than yourself.

 

The problem isn't her being worthy of you. The problem is you're not worthy of her. You felt threatened by her past. It made you feel small so you committed the act of small lying coward to make yourself feel more like a man. A real man wouldn't cheat on a girl who loves him. A real man would realize that her past is just that, the past. A real man would be secure enough in his own sexuality that he wouldn't feel threatened by her sexual past.

 

No the problem is that they're both not worthy. A girl that has a threesome and a guy who cheats. This will make sick any of their future partners. Good going people!

 

We pay for all mistakes in our life. Even if we don't regret them....

[Sal Paradise]

No the problem is that they're both not worthy. A girl that has a threesome and a guy who cheats. This will make sick any of their future partners. Good going people!

 

We pay for all mistakes in our life. Even if we don't regret them....

 

She wasn't with him when she had the threesome. I don't see what the problem is. I don't see how you can equate that to his cheating. His cheating hurt someone (her). Her threesome didn't hurt anyone. So what she had threesome, big deal.

[sb129]

This is more for the guy whose wife had a threesome- to the other guy- if you are cheating on your GF now then you are a big fat hypocrite and shame on you for being so obtuse.

 

Do we all have to live life to some kind of "perfect" template just in case we potentially offend someone that may be important to us in the future?

Thats RIDICULOUS!

People grow and change over time, their priorities change, events may happen to make them change their outlook or attitudes.

Some of you are suggesting that what we do cements who we are in the future- this can be true but in a positive sense too!

What about forgiveness and love? What about loving people for who they are NOW? What about people making mistakes and learning from them.. Or trying something once to satisfy curiosity...but realising that once is OK- if nobody got hurt AT THE TIME then whats wrong with that?

I am astounded at some of the replies to this thread.

I was in a relationship with a guy whose obsession with the fact that I had had more sexual partners than him DESTROYED our relationship. He was insecure and couldn't see past it. Yes OK i appreciate it mattered to him, but I had grown as a person since then, matured and become alot more sensitive to other peoples feelings, INCLUDING MY OWN. He couldn't see that i was happy with him, despite me telling him over and over and over. We CAN'T CHANGE THE PAST. We can learn and grow from it tho, and if we do, great.

Someone couldn't see me for who I am now. Their obsession with my past ruined a relationship. If you love someone you should be prepared to accept who they are including who they have been in the past, and who they might be in the future.

Its not just sexual activity that can cause friction- people can change due to loss/bereavement/work problems/accident/injury/ etc etc- would you condemn them too???

 

My current BF and I have a deal- anything that happened before the day we met is Ok to talk about but not fight over. But we also know that some behaviour is not OK to do NOW. Cheating etc. We have (dare I say it) well defined boundaries, love, trust and respect... and its amazing. I love him for the man he is now, and for the loves he gives me for who I am.

And that is what matters.

[Kokles]

This is more for the guy whose wife had a threesome- to the other guy- if you are cheating on your GF now then you are a big fat hypocrite and shame on you for being so obtuse.

 

Do we all have to live life to some kind of "perfect" template just in case we potentially offend someone that may be important to us in the future?

Thats RIDICULOUS!

People grow and change over time, their priorities change, events may happen to make them change their outlook or attitudes.

Some of you are suggesting that what we do cements who we are in the future- this can be true but in a positive sense too!

What about forgiveness and love? What about loving people for who they are NOW? What about people making mistakes and learning from them.. Or trying something once to satisfy curiosity...but realising that once is OK- if nobody got hurt AT THE TIME then whats wrong with that?

I am astounded at some of the replies to this thread.

I was in a relationship with a guy whose obsession with the fact that I had had more sexual partners than him DESTROYED our relationship. He was insecure and couldn't see past it. Yes OK i appreciate it mattered to him, but I had grown as a person since then, matured and become alot more sensitive to other peoples feelings, INCLUDING MY OWN. He couldn't see that i was happy with him, despite me telling him over and over and over. We CAN'T CHANGE THE PAST. We can learn and grow from it tho, and if we do, great.

Someone couldn't see me for who I am now. Their obsession with my past ruined a relationship. If you love someone you should be prepared to accept who they are including who they have been in the past, and who they might be in the future.

Its not just sexual activity that can cause friction- people can change due to loss/bereavement/work problems/accident/injury/ etc etc- would you condemn them too???

 

My current BF and I have a deal- anything that happened before the day we met is Ok to talk about but not fight over. But we also know that some behaviour is not OK to do NOW. Cheating etc. We have (dare I say it) well defined boundaries, love, trust and respect... and its amazing. I love him for the man he is now, and for the loves he gives me for who I am.

And that is what matters.

 

We all do mistakes and some of them can make others feel disgusted. To feel sick because of it definitely isn't immature. We see the exact same reactions/emotions pattern everytime. Because of this we can definitely assume that it's a perfectly normal average behavior. I know a girl that during one summer vacation slept with 8 people in a row, yet feels internaly disgusted that her current boyfriend was sleeping with a girl that already had a boyfriend who knew that she sleeps with the other dude (my friend's boyfriend). She says it definitely disgusts her but it helps her when she thinks about her promiscuous vacation which is now disgusting for her. She does have the bad feeling but always uses her ways to weaken it.

 

Rule number 1: Everybody gets disgusted by promiscuity. (Some people are turned on by sexual encounters of their partners but that's because they have too heavy pornographic thoughts)

 

Problem number 1 is that people feel sick but still love the partner at the same time. They feel they deserve someone who's past doesn't make them sick and to be honest there's alot of potential partners who never done any of this stuff and will never do. So why shoudln't you go out and find someone more suitable??.... because you still love the partner and you know that breaking up over past is not 100% logical. But no matter what you tell yourself you still feel sick. Then you ask yourself a question. What if other partners will make you more happy??? And beleive me alot of people who broke up over this stuff found more hapiness in relationships with people without a shady past.

 

If you want to have a shady past you have to be an insanely great relationship material so your partner won't be tempted by the "What if" question. But one never knows and that "what if" question will be always there. Promiscuity is not a moral thing but a feeling/emotion thing and we sadly all feel that same because we're all just human.

[sb129]

What do you define as promiscuity?

I am not talking about cheating- I am talking about sexual encounters/ events that may have happened BEFORE you were in a relationship.

If "shady" things are happening while you are IN a relationship, I totally agree that this can be a BIG problem.

But as for things that happened before you knew someone???

 

What do you mean "if you want to have a shady past"??? Alot of people with shady pasts don't WANT them- but they happened. They can't change them. And what is "shady" in one persons book may not be "shady" in anothers.

Are you saying that those of us who may have made mistakes (and mine aren't even that bad- just a few errors of judgement when it came to one night stands due to insecurity and immaturity) don't deserve a loving faithful partner? Are you saying we aren't capable of BEING a loving faithful partner?

That is totally unfair.

Some people need to kiss a few frogs before they find their prince. Does that make them promiscuous? Some people sleep with people for the wrong reasons- but may meet a loving person who makes them feel secure enough NOT to do this ever again.

 

I really can't believe the narrowmindedness of some of the posts on this thread. I can totally appreciate that people have different points of view, but it doesn't seem like people are giving enough credit to people for admitting to mistakes, or giving them a chance to be loved..

 

People do things that they may regret- do they deserve no forgiveness or love ever again??

 

Does this mean that all criminals should serve a life sentence no matter what their crime is because people can't ever change and can never reform so lets jst lock em up and throw away the key?

What about people who find God after sinning... He forgives them their sins.

 

COME ON PEOPLE where is the LOVE????

[sb129]

Right on Electric. It actually is amazing to me how much this doesn't bother me like it did. I am sort of smirking. I guess emotions are fluid. What's weird too is how you hit on the Ellis thing. I know that stuff inside and out and talk to people all the time about irrational thinking. But, when it's your own mind it still a tricky area. Good insight.

 

Things are going well all....just for an update for all. The fantasy talks are back and good again. My wife has even agreed to go to a strip club with me some night to indulge a bit of fantasy for both of us. Harmless fun you know. But, I feel I'm a pretty lucky guy to have a wife that would do that. I don’t know many wives that would do that. So, the more I think about this thing the more I think her past has been a culmination of what she is today....a really fun loving, honest and sort of kinky wife to be with. It's actually made us closer.....maybe in a bit of a twisted way but I’m OK with that. To be honesty this has definitely made us closer. In the end I think this whole thing will make us stronger.

 

later,

James

 

 

Hey James- YAY! Good foryou. Glad its working out

[Kokles]

Sb129 : You're getting too defensive and you're overreacting. I haven't said that people don't change nor that they don't deserve the chance to change into monogamous loving creatures. I know you understand that once you blew it there's a hard chance going back and you have to be prepared to withstand the disgust of other people, the ones who love you, or even your own disgust . I know you don't want to be judged and called names for things you described as mistakes. Don't loose faith and work on it to show your real value.

 

But why is something you enjoyed a mistake?? Just because people feel disgusted??.. hey you enjoyed it didn't you?? Everybody knows the catch is that in every point of life when other people will think of the things you have done they will likely to suffer a variety of negative emotions. We all feel it and we really cannot change those emotions into positive ones. The only thing to do is not to think about it and that's very hard.

 

Some people feel that they're lowering their standards that there are things that are causing them to feel so ill. These negative feelings attack the love since they all come from the same place. That's why the love vaporises thanks to it many many times because people will feel that you're not worthy to stop thinking about it. I say it's so freaking unfair but we're human and we're really not that complex to be able to live the way that's 100% logic - and that probably means without emotions because emotions are not always logical.

 

What you really say it's really nice and it does have the logic. But remember you can't change something **** to nothing nor pure gold. So what are you going to do about it? Nothing you can't change it.. you just have to rely that those things are not going to creep on the ones you love.

 

I pitty the ones that have to regret something they have done in their lives which causes mayor disgust. Life ain't easy so be prepared to deal with it and stop crying over it. It's your fault you have done them and it's the fault of the other people that they are not able to really value your worth and stop thinking about it. I say it's almost 50:50 .. i don not want to defend promiscuous people nor the ones that are disgusted.

[James8888]

I feel your pain 100%...I cant sleep i cant look at her the same..everything she says and does i relate it to the 3some..but we are still together though i dont know for how long. I cheat on her cause i feel like im getting revenge but that doesnt help...this whole situation is torture actually...I should have found out in the beginning and left her alone..

 

Wow, I haven’t been back in here for a while but it seems this post just keeps on living. Anyway, this is the OP, James.

 

Whersdalove, I’m going to try and give this to you straight. I do share many of you feelings here but you have to understand something. Being an ex-player and cheater myself (in my youth…not anymore mind you) I do know where you are coming from. So, I can tell you whole-heartedly that what you are doing is WRONG. You can’t just cheat on her and justify it because you say “she isn’t worthy”. And, you can’t use it as an excuse for your actions here. From what I can see you are cheating to bring yourself up….sorry to be harsh. But, I think you need some reality therapy. The problem is that this is making you feel insecure and inferior. Maybe you feel as if you can’t compete with the threeway? I felt that way, but I just try to push that out of my head and move forward. There’s not really that much you can do about this…it happened…and it had nothing to do with you AND IT WAS IN HER PAST. I know you were kind of dating but not exclusively right? And, she’s with you now, exclusively. Remember, she’s being exclusive now and you are not….not good dude. And, didn’t she say she regretted it? That should be enough to tell you how she really feels. I’ll bet if you talked to her you’d find it wasn’t such a great thing for her and you’d find that your insecurities are really the problem here. You feel like she’s got one up on you or that she’s more experienced. Again, I’m there with you. I DO KNOW WHAT YOU’RE FEELING, but, you have to put this in perspective and be an adult about this.

 

If you love her, stop doing what you’re doing and talk this thing out. If you can’t get by this then you either need to see a therapist or leave her. My wife and I have had little flare ups here and there and I do feel insecure about this thing once in a while but you have to see this for what it is. BEFORE your excluse dating time. And, now you’re engaged….that should mean something right? Maybe you’re worried that she will cheat on you now that you know this. I felt that way for a while. And, maybe that’s why you’re cheating…..to beat her to the punch. Trust me, this won’t work and will only lead to disaster.

 

I ask you, would you have done what she did if you were in her place? I would have…and that’s why I can’t let this rip my life and marriage apart anymore. And, frankly I don’t want it to have that power over me anymore. You shouldn’t either. But please understand that what you’re doing is way, way worse then anything she ever did in her past. Also, try and turn this around and say you told her something in your past. Then you found out she was cheating on you and used it for an excuse for doing it. Man, that hurts right? So, I feel your pain and know what you’re feeling. But, you’re going about this the wrong way. You need to sit down and talk this out or this is surely going to blow up in your face. Do I still look at my wife a little differently now that I know her past? Yes, I do. I hate to say that but I do. But, it’s only been a couple of months too since I found this out. But I also see it as honesty on her part and if I spin this right it can be something that makes us stronger. Remember, she didn’t have to tell you. She did and that’s honesty.

 

By the way, if you can get this back on track just agree to not talk about anymore unless you absolutely feel you have to get through some irrational thoughts. Not just because you’re curious. And, after that leave your pasts in the past. We have and it’s much better that way.

 

A ways back one of the reponders (and I forget the name....sorry) said to try and Google "retroactice jealousy". Do it. It is really eye-opening.

 

James.

[Tagurrit]

Follow the jealousy thread. Try not to worry over the details of who did what to whom. Your jealously is telling you something about who you are. That thread will lead you to what the problem really is. And by the way being a lesbian isn't the same thing as her having sex with a same sex partner. Being a lesbian is about being attracted to women only. --Tag

 

Hi guys, I feel kind of weird writing this but I'm going to give it a shot, as I just need a little support here. My wife and I have been married for 9 years, I'm 39 and she's 36, we have 2 great kids and a really good marriage. Our sexual past has been up and down but the last few years have been really especially good. We've always been real open with each other but didn't really talk much about our past. Probably a good thing, and every forum I look at say that's true. She did hint back a few years ago that she had a dark spot in her past (about 1 summer when she was about 20 years old). Nothing too major just a time when she sort of went a little wild. Hey, we all did. When I was in college I was really wild and was always on the hunt for some action.

 

Anyway, about a year ago we started doing verbal fantasies with each other, which are great and I can say have increased our sex life immensely. We agreed that it was just fantasy so we put no opinions or faults on what we say. It is actually really refreshing and it's brought openness to our relationship that has actually brought us closer. Our biggest fantasies always seem to go to threesomes or swapping. We even talked about trying this but ultimately decided it would change things too much and wreck our marriage. Better to keep them fantasy we decided. I love the fantasies and so does she. I don't want to wreck that part of our life. She's even now divulging that she is intrigued about being with a woman. Hey, I love this idea, but only if I'm there. I'd never want her to have a lesbian affair….just too weird and it could lead to way too many problematic situations. Any way, the majority of our fantasies are MFF.

 

Now my problem. On vacation after about a bottle of wine my wife finally told me some of her past. She had a threesome with 2 guys that summer when she was 20. Now this is 4 years before I even met her. I've done a lot of things in my past too but never got a threesome...but always wanted one. I thought I'd be able hear something like this and I'd be fine with it...but it hurt. It hurt really bad. Hypocritical right...I know! Now, being a stupid guy I pressed her for information on it, thinking I could turn this into a fantasy and it'd be all good. Wrong. The night after hearing this I could hardly sleep. I'm still struggling with this and it's 2 weeks later and can't get passed this. Not sure how get on with this in my mind. Any thoughts?

 

Here's the kicker guys. I'm a Masters student studying psychotherapy/counseling. I know better then this. This is irrational thinking...all in my mind. I still don't know how to get back to where we were though. I'm having insomnia, sneaking smokes outside at night and drinking when I never used to. I guess I just need a little REBT or reality therapy from a support group to help me out here. Oh, and I do run support groups too which is why I know you can help....it's just always different when I'm the one on the couch. This is also not the sort of thing I can really talk about in a live group. I just don't know why I can't get passed this.

 

thanks:(

[sandybelle]

I'm having insomnia, sneaking smokes outside at night and drinking when I never used to. I guess I just need a little REBT or reality therapy from a support group to help me out here.

thanks:(

 

Consider yourself lucky...few days ago I found out that my bf had a threesome with two girls while dating me. To top it off, now he's good friends with one of the girls...(see my post)

anyway, I'm writing here because I have the same symptoms like you do: can't sleep, I started drinking...and I also need lots of therapy to regain my self esteem. if you find any treatment for this please let me know...