KAPOW!!! The Blow Up

[a4a]

Word on Walk.

 

True I need a break time and again. So I am learning to say "you deal with this" and hand the reins over. (damn this eye twitch-I need a vacation).

 

Problem was I was trying to make the normal ideals fit the abnormal. My error. Bad bad me. So now I look at it as yes I have to take the brunt of it and I may as well embrace it instead of fighting it and just ask him to pick up when I need the help.

 

I learned quite a bit from past R's that I do get fed up with being the mule and the responsible one all the time. So I do demand that it be at least share some of the burden that he gains reward from as well. If he is not willing to do his share then it is his choice to meet with those consquences I clearly lay out for him. I am too old to play games. And he is too smart to fall for them.

 

Fine example I just buttered up a supplier. H was to handle it but I did it because it fell at me out of the blue. But now H can take the ball...... it was his assignment to do so, but the supplier got to me first. H must follow through or we simply will not get what we need. I am letting go of the reins!

 

You deal with it. Or face the consquences of your choice not to.

[Moose]

But because its the female in the lead role, then it's unacceptable behavior.

This couldn't be farther from the truth. Leadership roles are shared in my marriage, and I personally believe this should be true in all marriages.

 

It's not so much how a4a is handling the issues within her marriage, it's how she's handling her husband more on a personal level that I'm not to fond of.

 

I think it could even cause more damage down the road for him, possibly her too.

My only concern with how a4a is doing things is the potential for her husband to become too... uh... complacent with it.

You're beginning to see my point.

That he'll burden a4a with too much of the responsibility and cause too large a strain on the relationship.

Exactly, and that's where I see it coming to a head.

 

Many broken marriages I've seen wind up in this trap.

 

What I'm getting ready to tell you is from my own personal experiences with the couples we've worked with and gave councel.

 

(Doesn't matter if it's the wife or husband assuming the, "leadership" role, but for the sake of this arguement, we'll say the wife is assuming this role)

 

Either wifey will get sick of it, (taking care of EVERY LITTLE WITTLE thing), or hubby will actually, "re discover" himself and realize he's had his own definition, (of himself) this entire time.

 

He'll have resentment for being, "manipulated" into the position he's found himself in.

 

And it won't be until wifey admits that she did actually use these tactics to get him to, "perform", above and beyond the normal call of duty. (for a husband), and yes, this does happen 100% of the time, at least in all the cases I've had.

 

Typically, these wives, (sometimes husbands), are ones who, "wore the pants", in the family. They took control of all aspects of the marriages. (Keeping in spirit with this particular thread, this happens to go into hubby's workplace....)

 

More often than not, this behaviour of always assuming control stems from learned behaviour from the parents or personal insecurities.

 

All the other times, I've discovered, it was a last ditch effort to pull someone's act together, and this always, always, always blows up in their faces.

 

It doesn't have anything to do with religion.

 

It doesn't have anything to do with what society thinks the, "norm" is.

 

It has everything to do with how a person feels, the best description I can think of is, "violated", when one comes to realize his or her life is under someone's control other than themselves.

 

Even though the, "subordinate", indeed preferred the situation AT THE TIME it was happening, (yes they do exist), it should've been the, "leader's", responsibilty to "bleed", them into the real world, to be self sufficient, take responsibilities for their own actions, WITH NO REPRISALS FROM THE SPOUSE.

 

I say this because going into a marriage, it's a partnership. Both parties should be able to make decisions, and it will be accepted, whether or not it pleases or displeases the partner.

 

It's my Opinion that:

 

Ultimatums, demands, and threats have no place in what I define as a healthy marriage or for that matter, any relationship.

 

The mentality of, "It's my way or the highway", shouldn't be coming from either party, and if it does exist, (in any relationship), it simply Will Not Last......

 

I wish I could go further, gotta get.....

[Moose]

whether or not it pleases or displeases the partner.

I thought I should expand on this a little.

 

PLEASE, keep in mind that decisions that would involve physical or emotional abuse don't follow under this clause in my opinion......hope that makes sense...

[Mary3]

This couldn't be farther from the truth. Leadership roles are shared in my marriage, and I personally believe this should be true in all marriages.

 

It's not so much how a4a is handling the issues within her marriage, it's how she's handling her husband more on a personal level that I'm not to fond of.

 

I think it could even cause more damage down the road for him, possibly her too.You're beginning to see my point.Exactly, and that's where I see it coming to a head.

 

Many broken marriages I've seen wind up in this trap.

 

What I'm getting ready to tell you is from my own personal experiences with the couples we've worked with and gave councel.

 

(Doesn't matter if it's the wife or husband assuming the, "leadership" role, but for the sake of this arguement, we'll say the wife is assuming this role)

 

Either wifey will get sick of it, (taking care of EVERY LITTLE WITTLE thing), or hubby will actually, "re discover" himself and realize he's had his own definition, (of himself) this entire time.

 

He'll have resentment for being, "manipulated" into the position he's found himself in.

 

And it won't be until wifey admits that she did actually use these tactics to get him to, "perform", above and beyond the normal call of duty. (for a husband), and yes, this does happen 100% of the time, at least in all the cases I've had.

 

Typically, these wives, (sometimes husbands), are ones who, "wore the pants", in the family. They took control of all aspects of the marriages. (Keeping in spirit with this particular thread, this happens to go into hubby's workplace....)

 

More often than not, this behaviour of always assuming control stems from learned behaviour from the parents or personal insecurities.

 

All the other times, I've discovered, it was a last ditch effort to pull someone's act together, and this always, always, always blows up in their faces.

 

It doesn't have anything to do with religion.

 

It doesn't have anything to do with what society thinks the, "norm" is.

 

It has everything to do with how a person feels, the best description I can think of is, "violated", when one comes to realize his or her life is under someone's control other than themselves.

 

Even though the, "subordinate", indeed preferred the situation AT THE TIME it was happening, (yes they do exist), it should've been the, "leader's", responsibilty to "bleed", them into the real world, to be self sufficient, take responsibilities for their own actions, WITH NO REPRISALS FROM THE SPOUSE.

 

I say this because going into a marriage, it's a partnership. Both parties should be able to make decisions, and it will be accepted, whether or not it pleases or displeases the partner.

 

It's my Opinion that:

 

Ultimatums, demands, and threats have no place in what I define as a healthy marriage or for that matter, any relationship.

 

The mentality of, "It's my way or the highway", shouldn't be coming from either party, and if it does exist, (in any relationship), it simply Will Not Last......I wish I could go further, gotta get.....

 

Very beautifully spoken Moose. When someone is forcing the other person into doing something there will be resentment and resistance. No matter how much the aggressor is convinced that their abuse tactics ie;* threats are working..

 

Remember this : :"Balance.....healthy balance."...

 

If one partner is calling all the shots and push~ pushing then the other partner is going to find an exit out....Likely the husband in this case....

 

I haven't posted on this very lengthy saga until now...

 

You are DEAD ON RIGHT when you say that hubby is going to break ....unless of course he likes to be pushed around like a motorized rabbit and has no thinking for himself...

[Walk]

I know this couple who has somewhat the same dynamics as a4a's relationship. The wife is very much the dominate figure in the relationship. Hubby is passive. The wife actually went to her hubby's work and renegotiated a salary package and health benefits without her hubby there. Just barged in, demanded to talk to the owner, got a higher salary and better health care package and blew out of there.

 

This is just an example (above), there are several others I could give. Anyway... the one who's dissatisfied in the relationship is the wife. Not the husband. i was friends with both for nearly 10 years. And the wife would start telling me how she wanted a divorce, couldn't continue carrying the relationship, etc.. The hubby was happy. He did his own little thing, carried on with his life. Any major problems were taken care of by the wife.

 

I'm not saying they were the happiest couple I'd ever seen, but hell, their marriage far out lasted mine, so who am I to say anything. All I know is this particular set up worked the best for them out of anythign else they tried. The husband wasn't willing or capable to pick up more of the power. Wife was a natural "leader" type personality. The get 'er done type. She filled in the areas he wasn't able to or didn't want to. He picked up the nuturer/bonder role like he was made for it.

 

I'm not saying there aren't problems with this set up. But what the heck is the woman supposed to do in a situation like that? No amount of discussion, arguments, or ultimatums really works. You might get momentary periods of hubby putting in his share, but then immediately drops back to status quo the second things settle down again. How the heck do you teach someone to be more assertive in their life? That's something I truly believe comes from inside the person, not outside forces. Unless you suggest she just dump him on the ground and let him flounder til he figures it out. Problem is that if he goes down, so does she. So what do you suggest a couple in this situation does?

[Moose]

How the heck do you teach someone to be more assertive in their life?

Good question!!

Unless you suggest she just dump him on the ground and let him flounder til he figures it out.

YES! That's EXACTLY what you should do. It's THE only way people snap out of it.

Problem is that if he goes down, so does she.

Yes, this is true. However, it's only a temporary situation, and the problem gets solved. No band aids, no one person carrying the brunt of the load for years and years, no flare ups.......it's done.

 

Call it, "tough love", if you want. But carrying your partners weight isn't helping anyone at all.

[a4a]

 

Moose I am going to answer this because you are NOT getting what is REALLY happening in my M.

 

We do share all decisions. However I am the one to initiate things. Like I said I wanted to move, he did not, so we compromised. This is a fine example of sharing. I see things as how they will affect US. Not me, US. I am the one to say " hey we need to get this done before the storm hits"........ He would be busy trying to fix it in the middle of the storm.

 

 

It's not so much how a4a is handling the issues within her marriage, it's how she's handling her husband more on a personal level that I'm not to fond of.

 

Again Moose you only know the half of it, the bad half. Like this morn, we were getting ready for work. I packed his lunch and stuck a post it note in his sandwich box "I love you" on it. I do not dictate what we are going to do. I ask what he wants to do. I may say "Hey we have to go get feed" well that is what needs to be done....... there is no choice in that.

 

My H is the one who says how much he hates his job, how pissed he is about spending way too much time at work. He is the one who says he does not want to work weekends EVER! I simply made him aware of the fact that he was letting his Buddy walk all over him again. And walk all over OUR TIME together. H is not resentful that I gave him an ultimatum about that Sat. He is happy I did. (cripes do you wanna call him and ask him yourself)

 

I think it could even cause more damage down the road for him, possibly her too.You're beginning to see my point.Exactly, and that's where I see it coming to a head.

 

No actually things are so much better, even H agrees. He was not accustomed to having anyone in his life or the responsibility of life in general. He had no future plan. So this is a whole new experience for him. I will be honest, I love him, but he never had to do anything for himself his whole life. He works hard, is smart, but he was always provided for.......things are no longer that way. So he has to grow up for the first time in 38 years. He took a year off to play even........ part of the reason his finances are so screwed up.

 

Many broken marriages I've seen wind up in this trap.

 

I don't think our M is broke at all, we communicate and enjoy each other immensly.

 

 

 

 

Either wifey will get sick of it, (taking care of EVERY LITTLE WITTLE thing), or hubby will actually, "re discover" himself and realize he's had his own definition, (of himself) this entire time.

 

Yes I expect him to be responsible. But I know if it lays outside the normal range of daily life I must initiate it. Such as building new houses and selling them. I am the initiator and master of that sort of thing. I look to build for the future for US. But I expect him to notice that the truck is low on gas and to fill it up on the way past the station knowing we have a trip in the opposite direction of the station the next day...... see he does not think ahead to make life easier...... that is my peeve with him.

 

He'll have resentment for being, "manipulated" into the position he's found himself in.

 

He is not manipulated...... again our communication is very clear. There is no hiding feelings and using them to gain or an agenda.

 

And it won't be until wifey admits that she did actually use these tactics to get him to, "perform", above and beyond the normal call of duty. (for a husband), and yes, this does happen 100% of the time, at least in all the cases I've had.

 

Again not my MO. I tell him exactly how I see it and what I think the outcomes will be. Fine example is he got walked on at work. H is passive, he refuses to confront the issues. I simply bring it to his attention that if he continues to neglect to confront issues he will continue to be walked on...... and guess what Moose...... I told him to do the same with me...... and he does. He never says "yes Dear".......never. I think you have painted a picture of him with his head down cowering in fear of me. :lmao:

 

 

 

Typically, these wives, (sometimes husbands), are ones who, "wore the pants", in the family. They took control of all aspects of the marriages. (Keeping in spirit with this particular thread, this happens to go into hubby's workplace....)

 

I do not go into his workplace, I avoid it. They come to me. Including the H to ask my thoughts on something. Buddy comes to me, I avoid it. Buddy even thanked me for getting H to work on time........ that has nothing to do with me at all. NOTHING. I do not discuss my H with Buddy...... maybe some funny stuff like things they did when they were kids...... but not work related.

 

However I will not allow Buddy to effect my M , or my life because he is the king of chaos and spent 1 hour with his wife and kids in 3 days after being gone for 3 weeks....... Buddy thinks my H should be like him, my H does not want our M like his. Unlike B, my H actually enjoys the company of his wife. My H chooses to not get BJ's in strip clubs either when B nags him to go with him........... So yep Buddy is a pain in my ass personally and I will not tolerate him manipulating my life or intruding in my M or life. Boundaries...... sorry but I do have them. H does to, but is afraid to confront him. Which is odd as he certainly says no to others including myself. If he confronts him Buddy will have hurt feelings.

 

More often than not, this behaviour of always assuming control stems from learned behaviour from the parents or personal insecurities.

 

No Moose not always...... lets say you have bills to pay and up coming expenses. So one of you has to step up to the plate and take care of it before the repo man shows up and snatches the car. Or you are more aware, the fuel cans are empty and you know you got a 1/8 of a tank in the tractor. I am obviously more aware of things and am willing to deal with them more than the H is. I see the big picture and how things will effect other things....... H sees things individually.

 

Example: If I have to go to the area where all the stores are, I hit 3 at once, pick up groceries, lumber, and beer. H would make these into individual trips.

He cannot multi task. Which is good because he is detail oriented and it shows in his workmanship.

 

 

 

 

 

It has everything to do with how a person feels, the best description I can think of is, "violated", when one comes to realize his or her life is under someone's control other than themselves.

 

In my case his life is certainly not under my control. Nor am I under his control. We have mutual respect. We consider how the other person will feel if our actions effect them. At times we may slip up, but that happens. Nobody is perfect. But what is good for the goose is good for the gander in our M.

 

Even though the, "subordinate", indeed preferred the situation AT THE TIME it was happening, (yes they do exist), it should've been the, "leader's", responsibilty to "bleed", them into the real world, to be self sufficient, take responsibilities for their own actions, WITH NO REPRISALS FROM THE SPOUSE.

 

Moose you hit it. This is exactly what I am doing. HELLO!! WTF do you think the choice about SAT work was about? DUH!!! See the problem was I was making excuses for him, I was setting my own wants and desires aside because he needed to find himself. NO MORE.

 

I say this because going into a marriage, it's a partnership. Both parties should be able to make decisions, and it will be accepted, whether or not it pleases or displeases the partner.

 

That makes no sense. If I decide I want to hang out with my friends at a bar every Friday (which I am invited to do so) I should just go ahead and do that regardless of how my H may feel about it? I would so not do that. Maybe we get along so well that we make our decisions together and do indeed truly consider how they will effect US. IMHO that is a partnership.... what you stated above certainly is not.

 

It's my Opinion that:

 

Ultimatums, demands, and threats have no place in what I define as a healthy marriage or for that matter, any relationship.

 

Demands could be vows themselves. Threat is always there. If I cheat I know I will be in trouble.

 

The mentality of, "It's my way or the highway", shouldn't be coming from either party, and if it does exist, (in any relationship), it simply Will Not Last......

 

Sorry but at times it is needed. Many times...... in real life. A drug abusing or alcoholic spouse, cheater, ..... you do need to lay out boundaries. It is making it clear to a partner that things cannot continue in the same manner or there is a consquence. However it is about compromise and coming to terms. Saying "I am unhappy and if this continues I cannot stay with you" is not my way or the highway attitude.

 

 

And don't you use the same thing with your kids, wife, and friends? Life is about choice, rules, limitations, rewards, and consquences. Simplified you could say " if you drive drunk, you are going to jail"...... is that a threat? No. It is a consquence for an action that crosses a boundary or rule. Dealbreakers are allowed in M correct? Perhaps not everyone has the same dealbreakers as you do?

 

I wish I could go further, gotta get.....

 

Moose are you licensed in psychology?

 

And again I would like to remind you I did ask you to refrain from posting to my threads. Do you have boundary issues? :lmao: Pushy aren't ya?

 

Let me give you an example. Last night I called my H Weiner Man I also called him a dick. Now you tell me how he felt about those separatley.

 

I think most of your problem with me is this format will not allow one to really communicate things like they can be via phone or in person. So you take your own view on partial information. You are painting a picture of me yourself, of my H, of my M. But you are way off. So again I feel the need to defend myself from a passive character attack made by you. You may honestly believe what you are posting, but you are so far off on so many things. You are picking out a sentence and not even getting the whole picture of reality.

 

So do me a favor and stop. I keep telling you that you are not getting the reality of our daily life. And long ago I posted a short list of things I do for my H and you said that cannot be true :lmao: But it is true Moose.... it is true. So unless you can stop attacking my character and stop interpeting and manipulating things to only try to make your point I would appreciate it if you would find someone else to validate your own beliefs with.

 

Fine example is people that pick out bible verses and interpet them to fit their own agenda.(not making this a religious thing but good example) I think you are doing the same thing here with me. Your agenda is obviously to want to say " I told you so". Sorry but we are very happy and I don't see you saying "I told you so". Things are improving greatly. And if it took an ultimatum or a choice of consquences or reward to get it there then good for us. Moose maybe it works for us is that so hard to accept?

 

Now one last time.... I am not going to respond to you again. (threat? ) I am going to say once more PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE AT LEAST ON PUBLIC THREADS, PM ME IF YOU MUST. (compromise )

You are wasting your time with me.... beating a dead horse...... so stop.

 

I will control, beat, and belittle my H for the rest of his natural life and there is nothing you can do about it. I will form a legion of Women to do the same to their men....... we will take over the world soon.

 

You know I beat him too....... purple nurple torture too. I threatend him with a BJ Mon. night.

[a4a]

I know this couple who has somewhat the same dynamics as a4a's relationship. The wife is very much the dominate figure in the relationship. Hubby is passive. The wife actually went to her hubby's work and renegotiated a salary package and health benefits without her hubby there. Just barged in, demanded to talk to the owner, got a higher salary and better health care package and blew out of there.

 

This is just an example (above), there are several others I could give. Anyway... the one who's dissatisfied in the relationship is the wife. Not the husband. i was friends with both for nearly 10 years. And the wife would start telling me how she wanted a divorce, couldn't continue carrying the relationship, etc.. The hubby was happy. He did his own little thing, carried on with his life. Any major problems were taken care of by the wife.

 

I'm not saying they were the happiest couple I'd ever seen, but hell, their marriage far out lasted mine, so who am I to say anything. All I know is this particular set up worked the best for them out of anythign else they tried. The husband wasn't willing or capable to pick up more of the power. Wife was a natural "leader" type personality. The get 'er done type. She filled in the areas he wasn't able to or didn't want to. He picked up the nuturer/bonder role like he was made for it.

 

I'm not saying there aren't problems with this set up. But what the heck is the woman supposed to do in a situation like that? No amount of discussion, arguments, or ultimatums really works. You might get momentary periods of hubby putting in his share, but then immediately drops back to status quo the second things settle down again. How the heck do you teach someone to be more assertive in their life? That's something I truly believe comes from inside the person, not outside forces. Unless you suggest she just dump him on the ground and let him flounder til he figures it out. Problem is that if he goes down, so does she. So what do you suggest a couple in this situation does?

 

 

Walk yep you kinda gotta it.

 

I negotiated my X's employment pack. this past June. Not directly but arranged for the X to travel and the only reason this happened was on my suggestion to approach corporate in a very very unusual way. I still do the X's taxes as well. I do not barge in and tell the X what to do nor do I do so with the H...... I ask what is it that you want and we can look for ways to make it happen. Same approach with the H.

 

If he worked that Sat the line HE DREW would have been crossed. The line we both decided was not to be crossed because it would effect our M long term. Buddy will take a mile if you give him an inch. I stuck to our decision, he faltered, and with my 'ultimatum' concluded that he was getting pushed. He made the call under his own power to tell Buddy that his M would not suffer because of B's lack of organization and poor mgt. skills anymore. H says his time is his time, his weekends are his time. I simply strongly reminded him, by example perhaps, even that certain boundaries are not to be crossed.

 

H may tolerate B causing upset and meddling in our M but I will not. His choice to decide which is the priority. Staying true to a promise that he made to me or cow towing to a screaming guy who is off his rocker. Choices and consquence..... a real part of life. The way I saw it if he gave in again to the B that it will again continue to occur. Giving into me was not giving in, but something the H wanted anyway......just was too afraid to confront B.

 

Funny they asked others to work on Sat and looked at H and said " oh I am not even going to ask you"........ note the ask part, not the scream and demand it like B did with employees that friday.

 

 

 

He is an awesome man. I don't want him to be like me, I don't expect that. I want him to just take care of the things that I cannot. Think ahead a little, plan. That is all. No big deal, and I know he is not perfect. I do not mind being the leader, but on occassion I just need him to do a little relief so I can catch a break. He is getting much better. Much much better. He is even happier with himself as he stated last night. He also states he needed a kick in the ass, and still does on occassion.

[PandorasBox]

So unless you can stop attacking my character and stop interpeting and manipulating things to only try to make your point I would appreciate it if you would find someone else to validate your own beliefs with.

 

 

 

I don't get this. I haven't read anything where Moose is attacking your character, or manipulating things to try to make his point. I see his replies as an opinon. The thing is, the paragraph above could be said of you as well. What you say is based on your opinon on how what works for you, maybe others view that as attacking characters, and manupilating things to get your point across too. I'm not jumping you a4a, by no means, I'm just saying I have seen where theres many opinons here, but it's like you view certains ones as attacks, or manipulating things. The ones you see as attacks or threats to your post, actually are the ones that make the most sense.

[Moose]

This is a public forum where I have as much right to post my opinion as the next person.

 

I won't be intimidated to stop when I have something that needs to be said....

[a4a]

So unless you can stop attacking my character and stop interpeting and manipulating things to only try to make your point I would appreciate it if you would find someone else to validate your own beliefs with.

 

 

 

I don't get this. I haven't read anything where Moose is attacking your character, or manipulating things to try to make his point. I see his replies as an opinon. The thing is, the paragraph above could be said of you as well. What you say is based on your opinon on how what works for you, maybe others view that as attacking characters, and manupilating things to get your point across too. I'm not jumping you a4a, by no means, I'm just saying I have seen where theres many opinons here, but it's like you view certains ones as attacks, or manipulating things. The ones you see as attacks or threats to your post, actually are the ones that make the most sense.

 

 

Pan I could bring up past posts, one where he has said that it is impossible that I do things that I state I do for my H even. The other night my H was cold in the restaurant where we were at and I ran outside in the rain and got his coat for him. He was tired so I did that for him. This is typical but probably out of the ordinary I guess. I heat his towel for him if he is in the shower. All kinds of things....but I was told that nobody does those kind of things..... so I am a liar?

 

He only gets part of the picture and refuses to listen to any other information that is provided to him. I have indeed posted over and over again that my H did not want to work that SAT. H was pissed. Yet I am being made out to look like I called his Buddy up and said " My H is not working because I don't want him to" ...... that is how I am interpeting it. I cannot put into words my H's demeanor and I guess I did not make it clear enough that H not me is the one to state constantly that HIS WEEKENDS ARE HIS WEEKENDS. His idea, desire, wants........ not mine.

 

Nor is anyone aware of how we actually do and how much we do communicate. Snippets of things are not the whole picture. I do not rule the roost here at all. But again that pic was painted of my character IMHO. I see things or become aware of them quicker than the H and bring them to his attention so he can also decide on what he wants to do about it.

 

I don't control him, far from it. What magical power would I have over him? I don't yell or scream. I ask, discuss, and I did indeed tell him something must change or else I will not be able to continue our M (threat, ultimatum, control?). That is reality........ that is confronting a problem and saying we need to deal with this because the consquences/outcomes will be A, B, or C. What do you want to do about it? That is my approach to pretty much any problem we encounter.

 

It is far from one sided. My first concern is his happiness. He will say that his is very happy in our M and always has been. I guess my H is a big fat liar.

 

But it is blown way the hell out of proportion, perhaps because of this format or perception because the whole "picture" is not available to make an informed opinion.

 

 

Pan as for making the most sense, maybe if you only see part of it. If I did barge into his work and make demands that my H did not ask me to or we discussed......yes I would say I am a control freak, serious issues, and I am stepping way over normal boundaries....... but that is not how it is. I have never ever called B for anything relating to H or work, for that matter I don't think I ever called him except when H was very ill, or H asked me to give him info he wanted me to relay via email or fax.

 

Him not going to work that Sat was not about me. It was about my H learning to stand up on his own two feet and actually confront the B. The playing field has leveled out for them quite a bit now.

 

If anything I am so uncontrolling it is not funny. I don't dictate where we go, I ask, I do say this has to be done or this does.....because it does.

 

"The filter cartridge on the ice maker needs to be changed...... can you pick it up on your way home past the store?" - Is that control, ruling the roost? Too Demanding?

 

Could you please treat me in a manner which makes me feel good? - Is that controlling, is that demanding?

 

If you cheat I will leave you...... -threat or clearly stating a boundary or limit?

 

I am unhappy about the way you are treating me, and unless we confront this issue we will end up divorced. -Threat or confronting an issue in the M head on?

[PandorasBox]

I heat his towel for him if he is in the shower.

 

Now that is a act of kindness if I have ever heard of one! NO, I'm not being a smart a$$ when I say that either, I'm serious, thats really nice. I think if this is something YOU wanted to do for him that was great, and the same with you getting his coat because he was cold. However, I have to say it seems that thats fine you want to do these things, but maybe he has become so used to you doing these acts of kindness that maybe thats where some of the problem lies. I'm not saying he is spinless by no means, but jelly like substance is more like it I suppose. I'm not meaning that ugly, I'm just saying, it seems you do alot a WHOLE lot more than he does in the relationship on certain things. If you are ok with it and he is ok with then yeah I guess its what works for you. But do you truly, 100 percent for sure know that he is ok with it? IMO, I think there are things he is ok with because he wants you to do for him, the things he rather not do, but then there are some things I see that he might want to do or need to do on his own but chooses not, and wants to take the reins, but feels that you are going to anyway so why bother?

[Moose]

Pan I could bring up past posts, one where he has said that it is impossible that I do things that I state I do for my H even.

Well bring up that post then! Just make sure you include that list to make it fair.

 

Besides, I don't think PandorasBox is referring to PAST POSTS.

 

I believe I SPECIFICALLY said:

What I'm getting ready to tell you is from my own personal experiences with the couples we've worked with and gave councel.

Do you see ANYWHERE, ANYWHERE.......ANYWHERE where it says a4a's marriage? a4a and H? ANYWHERE? ANYWHERE?

 

You began this thread saying:

I gave the H a choice, go sleep at his friends house or choose to keep his promise to me.

 

Needless to say we had a wonderful time on Sat.

This is an ultimatum. Not a choice. If it were a choice, I personally wouldn't be surprised of anyone else would've broken that promise just to spite you. Your husband is a unique case though, and I find that interesting.

 

I posted what my experiences have shown me both personally and yes, professionally. Even though I'm not a licenced physcologist, I have been called to councel couples in our Church.

 

These experiences can be helpful to people here on LS, and that's why I post. Like it or not.

[Walk]

Good question!!YES! That's EXACTLY what you should do. It's THE only way people snap out of it.Yes, this is true. However, it's only a temporary situation, and the problem gets solved. No band aids, no one person carrying the brunt of the load for years and years, no flare ups.......it's done.

 

Call it, "tough love", if you want. But carrying your partners weight isn't helping anyone at all.

 

The problem doesn't get "solved". Their both in the 30's right? You don't think he hasn't fallen on his face a time or two before for exactly the behavior a4a is upset about? Did it significantly change his core personality? No, otherwise there wouldn't still be a problem. Frankly, tough love is a great concept, but I've NEVER seen it work in real world situations. The person who was given tough love ends up feeling resentful, abandoned, uncared about.. pissed off. They don't come back thinking.. "Oh Wow honey, I'm so glad you just abandoned me to the wolves!!!" IF that kind of turn around happens, it's YEARS down the road, not months.

 

A lot of hte behavior that a4a is upset about is core philosophy type behavior. Something he either learned while growing up, or ideals he's developed while growing up. This isn't something that just started occuring. It's a lifetime of behavioral patterns... and it can't be solved with a temporary solution. That's all tough love is.. temporary solution. As soon as the stimilus to change is removed, he'll revert right back to the previous (familiar) behavior.

 

A few months of hardship on a 30 year old is not going to erase his entire up bringing.

 

So no.. I don't agree. There isn't a problem with carrying your partners weight, as long as the partner can offset it in another area. Defining and implementing how to do that is the hard part.

[Walk]

You began this thread saying:This is an ultimatum. Not a choice. If it were a choice, I personally wouldn't be surprised of anyone else would've broken that promise just to spite you. Your husband is a unique case though, and I find that interesting.

 

I'm not understanding why this is so bad. It's not as if she were telling him "If you don't get my ice cream, then I'm divorcing you." She told him this was incredibly important to her. This would affect the marriage and their life together, and he could choose to go stay at a friends, or he could honor the promise he made to her.

 

I've told my bf he either changes how he talks to me or I'm leaving. This is an ultimatum too I guess. But to me, it's a boundary. Not an ultimatum. I feel the same way about promises. I have boundaries that I don't want crossed, and there are repercussions if those boundaries are crossed.

 

If someone can't speak up and tell the boss (who isn't going to fire him) that he can't come in on a weekend, but the person would by far break a very important promise to me???? I'd rather the person not be in my life if those promises can be broken so easily. It'd be different if there was a legitimate reason behind why he had to work instead of honoring his promise. Not enough money to pay bills, was going to get fired.. something drastic. Then fine, we renegotiate. But if the reason is because he doesn't have the backbone to dissappoint his friend.... then NO. There are going to be repercussions to his decision.

 

To me, a4a would be in the wrong if she didn't listen to his reasons, and thoughts as to why he felt he had to go into work. If all he'd said was he had to go, and she'd issued an ultimatum, then no, I wouldn't agree with it. But she did listen. She heard him give conflicting thoughts on how he didn't want to, how he felt pressured into going, how he knew he wasn't going to ge paid for going in, and how it'd be a waste of time anyway... She listened to him. She discussed. Only after he made it clear he was going to break his promise did she put her foot down.

 

And I'm really not seeing a difference between tough love and what she just did.

[Moose]

I think you might've mis understood what I was saying.

The problem doesn't get "solved".

One of two things happen when you let go of your partner's reins. They either fend for themselves by shaping up, or they ship out. (either party). Thus, the problem is solved. The temporary portion of this that I was talking about is that both parties involved will be dragged down with the other. That's only temporary.

 

There's not a problem with carrying your partner's weight from time to time, just not ALL the time. (unless one really isn't physically capable). I should've made that clearer earlier.

IF that kind of turn around happens, it's YEARS down the road, not months.

I agree 100%!!!!

[a4a]

I heat his towel for him if he is in the shower.

 

Now that is a act of kindness if I have ever heard of one! NO, I'm not being a smart a$$ when I say that either, I'm serious, thats really nice. I think if this is something YOU wanted to do for him that was great, and the same with you getting his coat because he was cold. However, I have to say it seems that thats fine you want to do these things, but maybe he has become so used to you doing these acts of kindness that maybe thats where some of the problem lies. I'm not saying he is spinless by no means, but jelly like substance is more like it I suppose. I'm not meaning that ugly, I'm just saying, it seems you do alot a WHOLE lot more than he does in the relationship on certain things. If you are ok with it and he is ok with then yeah I guess its what works for you. But do you truly, 100 percent for sure know that he is ok with it? IMO, I think there are things he is ok with because he wants you to do for him, the things he rather not do, but then there are some things I see that he might want to do or need to do on his own but chooses not, and wants to take the reins, but feels that you are going to anyway so why bother?

 

 

See that is normal behavior for us. He may heat up my pajamas for me. But I consider those "I am here and no big deal to do it". Like he says he likes cooking my dinner and he would be cooking for himself anyway. No big deal. We appreciate it but it is kinda normal for both of us to do such things.

 

We actually probably surpass many couples in small acts of kindness towards each other. But I do end up taking on the big problems we face as I usually am more aware of them or spot them quicker. When A happens then B is effected and then C will explode. So deal with A now, so C never happens.

 

He waits until C starts to happen before confronting the problem. If I allow C to happen well then I have to deal with the exploded mess of entrails.

 

He is fine with me running the show (if that is what the above A-b-c means). He is the first one to say just like he did about his job "I do not want a higher position". So that is ok. But if I am taking on the responsibility most of the time I need a good support system and reward system to want to continue to do so. If I fulfill that need for him and I am ok with it I just need some of my needs met in return. He is learning this.

 

He is thrilled that I do handle things to an extent. I do not just take the reins, or rip them out of his hands (again this is a mischaraterization of me). I bring the problem to his attention, ask his idea or opinion, if he chooses to ignore or neglect the situation brought to his attention, yes I do take care of it in most cases. There is no choice but to do so.

 

Example: we were low on hay..... I made him aware of it, he neglected it, I had to take care of it........ why? because there is no choice but to do so. Pissed? yes I was, and I told him as much. Does he take advantage of this?....... probably at times. I am the rock, I will find a way, I always do. But certain things cannot be neglected, I will not allow horses to starve simply because he forgot (did not feel like it?) to make a call to the hay supplier.

 

 

At times it does irritate me because I do ask him to take the reins on a situation, but many times it is something which I easily handle that may be of more trouble for him to handle or I am just better at it. But when I ask him to handle something and he neglects- yes the Fork does come out

 

Is he happy? Yes very much so with our marriage..... he is not happy at work nor with his finances. Work has gotten better since the blow up.

 

We have had the exact above conversation about him ending up feeling resentful because I do have to be the "slave driver" at times. The "we got to do this" person. He is ok with it he says the majority of times as he knows otherwise things would fall apart. I am only resentful if I ask for help and do not get it.

 

And yes we do have a fun M. Lots of fun actually. But I think the problem is I am trying to let him have so much freedom and take responsibility that he really does not want. I had to learn that he is not me, he does not value the same things I do. What is important to him may not be important to me and vice versa.

 

Every weekend it is the same thing.....ME: What would you like to do? Him: I don't know. So I pop up a long list of suggestions and the things that have to be done as well. He just says OK A, B, and C sounds good.

 

I remember once the school principal called me the "ring leader" in our 'elementary school gang'. I guess I always have been and always will be the initiator. And that is cool, otherwise I would be sitting around waiting for things to happen instead of making them happen. H is not a leader like me and that is cool..... as long as he does his part as the support team when needed...... it is getting better.

[a4a]

I'm not understanding why this is so bad. It's not as if she were telling him "If you don't get my ice cream, then I'm divorcing you." She told him this was incredibly important to her. This would affect the marriage and their life together, and he could choose to go stay at a friends, or he could honor the promise he made to her.

 

This is not the first time this has happened, H complains to me constantly about the weekend work and late work thing. Many times I have kept my mouth shut and said well if that is what you want.......H replies no that is not what he wants but is not willing to rock the boat with B. I am or was much easier to disappoint, or break a promise to..... my error in reaction. No more.

 

I've told my bf he either changes how he talks to me or I'm leaving. This is an ultimatum too I guess. But to me, it's a boundary. Not an ultimatum. I feel the same way about promises. I have boundaries that I don't want crossed, and there are repercussions if those boundaries are crossed.

 

Life is set up that way.... If you do A then B happens. I think it is much more fair to let a spouse know your exact boundaries or possible results of their actions to allow them a choice of actions to take rather than to expect them to read your mind and assume they think exactly like you do.

 

If someone can't speak up and tell the boss (who isn't going to fire him) that he can't come in on a weekend, but the person would by far break a very important promise to me???? I'd rather the person not be in my life if those promises can be broken so easily. It'd be different if there was a legitimate reason behind why he had to work instead of honoring his promise. Not enough money to pay bills, was going to get fired.. something drastic. Then fine, we renegotiate. But if the reason is because he doesn't have the backbone to dissappoint his friend.... then NO. There are going to be repercussions to his decision.

 

Correct because I was actually the spineless one in many cases not standing up to the H and saying, well this time it's ok, I am upset but do what you have to do. Another thing when promises are broken on a consistant basis....those broken promises tend to start to shake your trust in a person. I explained that to the H as well.

 

To me, a4a would be in the wrong if she didn't listen to his reasons, and thoughts as to why he felt he had to go into work.

 

He came home raving mad..... said his voice was actually cracking at work while discussing issues with B he was so mad......so going to work was not what he wanted at all. More so because B was supposed to go with us and knew we had planned this for 2 weeks. I honestly think B was trying to make some weird ass power play thing..... too bizarre knowing H and I have not done anything for ourselves in at least 2 months and this was to be our huge day out..... he knew, B said he was going with us and bringing his family.

 

If all he'd said was he had to go, and she'd issued an ultimatum, then no, I wouldn't agree with it. But she did listen. She heard him give conflicting thoughts on how he didn't want to, how he felt pressured into going, how he knew he wasn't going to ge paid for going in, and how it'd be a waste of time anyway... She listened to him. She discussed. Only after he made it clear he was going to break his promise did she put her foot down.

 

I put my foot down because he swore he would not break this promise to me. Honestly I was waiting for him to not go. Some excuse, or something would catch on fire, or his head would fall off....... and whammo I was right. This is something I have tolerated long enough. No more broken promises. Trust is not something you want to mess with in a M. If you continue to say you will do something and then don't do it...... well how can you trust that person?

 

This was a promise or arranged weeks ahead of time.... the work thing that afternoon. It was not an emergency, parts never even came in. My H is tired of his work dictating what he can and cannot do with his personal time..... that is an exact quote from my H's mouth..... not mine...... his.

[EnigmaXOXO]

This is an ultimatum. Not a choice. If it were a choice, I personally wouldn't be surprised of anyone else would've broken that promise just to spite you. Your husband is a unique case though, and I find that interesting.

 

Not so unique as some might think. There are a lot of couples who don't allow egos and power trips to get in the way to the point where they begin to childishly do things to "spite" one another just to prove who's in charge. I'd say that THIS is the kind of behavior that wrecks more relationships than not.

 

I don't know, but the most balanced and happy relationships I've seen are those where both partners keep each other in check on those rare occasions when one or the other needs to be reminded of where their mutual priorities should be.

 

Of course, I'm only referring to the situation that started a4a's thread … and not all the stuff that's snowballed since.

 

What I find unique and unusual is that anyone would even LOVE their jobs enough to sacrifice their weekends unless it was absolutely mandatory; they really needed the money … or they were just looking for an excuse to dodge the family in the first place!

[a4a]

I just saw this and have to say I did give him a choice indeed.

 

You began this thread saying:This is an ultimatum. Not a choice. If it were a choice, I personally wouldn't be surprised of anyone else would've broken that promise just to spite you. Your husband is a unique case though, and I find that interesting.

 

My exact quote was "well you have a choice to make either stand up to him (meaning B) or me"

 

I did go on to say that if you decide to break this promise to me you can just go pack your bag and go sleep at his house. I am not interested in sharing the same space with you at this time.

 

So yes he did have a choice with consquences laid out to him, we also did discuss consquences he may face with B. Including that this was the start of letting B tread all over him even more then before...... so I have to say I did see this as a choice not an ultimatum at all.

 

He chose. I do not have him shackled here. I do not have kids to threaten him with, I do not have a bank acct to threaten him with.

 

 

What kind of a person would do things like break promises out of spite?.... That is highly immature and neg. behavior. Again my H must be very very unique and extremely wonderful compared to others. I certainly would not do such a nasty thing to my husband. Geeze..... I guess my H is one hell of a guy if that is considered normal behavior. Sad.

[a4a]

Not so unique as some might think. There are a lot of couples who don't allow egos and power trips to get in the way to the point where they begin to childishly do things to "spite" one another just to prove who's in charge. I'd say that THIS is the kind of behavior that wrecks more relationships than not.

 

I don't know, but the most balanced and happy relationships I've seen are those where both partners keep each other in check on those rare occasions when one or the other needs to be reminded of where their mutual priorities should be.

 

Of course, I'm only referring to the situation that started a4a's thread … and not all the stuff that's snowballed since.

 

What I find unique and unusual is that anyone would even LOVE their jobs enough to sacrifice their weekends unless it was absolutely mandatory; they really needed the money … or they were just looking for an excuse to dodge the family in the first place!

 

 

we just posted the same thing but you certainly said it better.

[EnigmaXOXO]

Again my H must be very very unique and extremely wonderful compared to others.

 

Sure makes one appreciate who they're with. Don't it?

 

Gotta stop reading ... that darn twitch is coming back.

[a4a]

Sure makes one appreciate who they're with. Don't it?

 

Gotta stop reading ... that darn twitch is coming back.

 

Yes it does in so many ways. H often says B uses work to escape his wife. So true and so sad. So B is having issues I think because my H and I do get along very very well in comparison. B lost his little play pal. He might be doing things like this out of spite.

 

I am stuck in a flood zone right now..... twitching away myself.

[JadeStar]

I have to agree with the choice thing. To me a choice is, "You can either do A or B. A ultimatium to me would be more along the lines of, "You're gonna do A, period!" See there is no B so therfore there is no "choice."

 

I tell my kids sometimes, "You either, A, clean your rooms, or B you get started on your homework first." They will then choose which they want to do first.

 

Now I'll use a time when I gave out an ultimatium and I made sure that before I presented that, I knew and hubby knew that I would follow through or the ultimaium was wasted and of no good.

 

Back when he was drinking bad, I gave him an ultimaium becasue we had been thorugh this over and over again. he wasn't willing to help himself. He already informed me that he didn't have a problem and wasn't going to cousneling or AA. He hit rock bottom, but still didn't go to counseling, I made it clear to him I wasn';t going to continue to live like this. The ultimatium I issued to him was, "Do not bring another bottle of liquor in this house, and if you do me and the kids are gone". Its been 2 years since liquor has been in my house. Really since he has had any liquor period. He knew I was dead serious and that if liquor appeared again I was out. I think theres nothing wrong with ultimatiums as long as you follow through with what you say you're going to do. Guess he didn't want to chance me following through.

 

 

 

Jade

[Mary3]

" Consequences he may face ? " This sounds like a prisoner in a lock~down situation . Or maybe a middle schooler who got caught smoking. ?

 

What are the consequences of being your wife ? None that I would want to contemplate...

 

I had a controlling husband and all you accomplish by tightening the leash around his neck is resentment and * escape * Unless his brain is jelly filled by now and he just does his rolloevers and tricks on his back....