Being Open and Vulnerable vs. 180/ The 32

[Antha]

Hi! I've been reading a lot about doing 180s and following the 32 list. It makes a lot of sense. I think I did (and in some cases, still doing) the opposite of everything on The 32 list.

 

I spoke with the STBXH last night (he called) and eventually, I ended up crying and belittled myself by saying how I had done everything wrong (according to the rules of "It's Over"). I said that even now, I was being pathetic and crying and whiny and that it wasn't attractive. I don't know why I told him that I knew I was driving him away even now.

 

He said it was just the opposite -- that me being brave enough to be vulnerable and open served to let him know that I care, that it made him understand me more and what I am going through. He said that whenever I was business-like with him, he would distance himself and not try to see things through my eyes and he wouldn't understand my mind.

 

Here's what I'm getting at: The 32 list and the 180s still make absolute sense in my mind; but being honest and frank about how I feel makes sense too. In fact, the STBXH and I really seem to understand each other's point of view and get along better when we have these long conversations (hours) and the emotional bond is ever stronger. We seem to...connect. He doesn't seem turned off by emotions. Rather, he seems to understand them and there is intimacy in our conversations. He gets upset or hurt when I am distant or business-like; he doesn't voice it, but you can sense it in his speech. He says he understands that we are not getting back together and that he also understands the need to protect my heart...

 

Every time I choose to be business-like, he'll call me up and want to talk about...well, about anything -- tv, sports, his day at work, my schooling, etc. In short, he'll want to BS. I enjoy these conversations and I get along very well with him. He cheated on me (won't admit it) and he's living with HER. He's admitted that they were having sex (after he moved in...yeah right) and then they were dating, and now he's still living with her but not dating her (again, yeah right--they are hosting Thanksgiving dinner together with his family and her family attending). Despite all of this, I get along with him. I am able to converse about everyday things without getting upset; we talk as friends, it seems like we REALLY listen to each other now and really understand each other better. I don't want to get back together with him; he wants me back but isn't willing to risk anything or earn it back. He doesn't want to put any effort in. He wants us to get together and THEN start working on it, rather than working on it and THEN maybe being married again. Either way, I'm not interested and he's knows that. He's not willing to put himself out the line for me and that's enough for me to know that I don't want a man who doesn't want to redeem himself.

 

I do believe we (at least me; I don't know his mind) are becoming better, stronger people from this. I am almost done with school (Administrative Assistant Academy) and from there I should be able to get an entry level job in that field. I'm getting my life in order. I'm currently reading 'Don't Let Jerks Get the Best of You' and discovering my 'jerk enabler' traits.

 

Well, I've blathered on. My question is this:

 

--What are the pros and cons of each approach?

--Should they be used when you DON'T want to reconcile?

--Am I doing myself future emotional harm by letting him know about me and my life?

 

Antha

[Gunny376]

Bumped Up For Answers

[Guest]

This would assume that people know what these 32 and 180 things are.

[dgiirl]

I'm definitely not an expert but from my own situation, every time i initiated a "talk", I felt like we grew closer, only to find out later i helped him assauge his guilt. Every thing I said to him, he used against me to justify his reasons for leaving.

 

I'm not sure if you two have kids, but if not, why are you still in contact? This is a man who cheated on you and hasnt told you the full truth, and you are still allowing him into your life acting like nothing's happened. Personally, I couldnt put up with that. I'm sad and still hurt over my failed marriage, but I havent talked to my exh since I moved and although I sometimes miss him, I wont contact him. He put me into a place where anything i asked of him was too demanding. So I figure, if he really wants to talk to me, he should atleast have the balls to talk to me. I'm not sure if he wants to talk to me and is sitting there playing martyr like always, or he simply doesnt care. But in either case, it doesnt work for me and so I leave him alone.

 

What are you getting out of this relationship?

[Gunny376]

This would assume that people know what these 32 and 180 things are.

 

 

:lmao: :lmao:

[Ladyjane14]

What is it that you want to accomplish, Antha?

Last week, you seemed to be pretty sure that you wanted to divorce him and move on. Is that still the case?

 

I'm no expert on 180's, but my understanding is that they're designed to make YOU more interesting and attractive to your WS. They also serve to "open the cage door" for your spouse, thus removing the bullseye from your forehead.

 

IOW, it's real easy for a generally unhappy person to blame ALL of life's little problems on his mate. When you remove yourself from the chaos, you're no longer representing an authority figure in his life. You're not "controlling" him, and the burden of blame regarding his unhappiness shifts back to him.

 

Odds are.. if you want him back, you might still be able to pull the fat out of the fire. But you can't do that unless you become a MORE ATTRACTIVE alternative to the other path he's chosen. The 180's are designed to make you seem more mysterious and interesting. I've never heard that you shouldn't talk about the relationship... only that you shouldn't be the one to bring it up when you're doing 180.

 

Honesty is great. Vulnerability even, is great... if you allow it to show when you're partner is susceptible to it. If you show your vulnerability when he's NOT ready for it, you come off as whiney and needy. You're exerting more pressure instead of less.

 

I took a quick skim of your other thread, and honestly... this guy needs some work.

I think that if you were to entertain thoughts of reconcillitation, it would be necessary for both of you to get some counceling, and you'd do well to set some boundaries with him.

 

It's not okay to flake out on your family every couple of years, so unless he's willing to address what it is that makes him do that.... you'd just be spinning your wheels.

[Antha]

Thanks everyone. My stance is still the same: I do NOT want to get back together with him. I'm okay with being "friendly". I have told him: "For my sake and yours, I think that we should handle each other as just dear daughter's parents. So, if I am "business like" with you, you understand why and you won't take it personally". He said he agreed with this (he agrees every time I say it) and the next day, he'll call and I'll think it's something about dd or having to do with the divorce...and it's not. It's not about anything in particular.

 

I don't bring up the relationship. I did at first, but that died quickly. I left it alone and just said, "I'm better off. I know the truth and that's all that matters". Then, it started to become him who would want to talk about the relationship, sometimes segue into it on the phone and others when dropping of our dd.

 

I haven't read the books on the 180's...but it sounds like the technique is for reconciling?

 

How should I behave if I don't want him back, but want to maintain "friendliness" (for lack of a better word)? I get along with him, we are more than civil to each other. Yes, there has been a few cases of "Accidental Intimacy". If I am business-like with him, he plays a game of "I can be even colder", which I have said to him. I've explained to him that it's not about being cold, but just dealing with each other as dd's parents and it's not meant to hurt him or be mean to him...but he sucks me back into casually chatting with him and seems like he forgot our agreement to not be so friendly.

 

I don't ask about his life, unless he volunteers something (like who did what at work). I don't pry because I know that somethings (like going to see a movie with HER) are going to bother me and backslide my progress. I have never been a person who plays mind games, so I don't care if he knows that I'm just hanging out with my sister on a Friday night.

 

The 32 list makes sense to me even for those who DON'T want to reconcile. I probably need some time to focus more on me. I answer the phone when he calls because I a) am curious what it's about and b) get excited that it's him. Sick, I know. I don't think it's possible to ever really be just friends, but it is my wish, despite what he did.

 

It's hard not to be friends with him because he's been my friend a good deal of my life, since I was 14 (actually, 3 days before my 14th b-day). He'll do nice things like bring me a Diet Coke (I HATE sugar but love Diet Coke) or get Christmas pictures of dd and give me some too or talk me down when I was nervous for my job shadow. He's a good friend. He's not a good husband.

 

My counselor doesn't think I should talk to him about anything that doesn't involve our daughter or "business", such as car insurance, cell phone bill, etc. He said that these conversations are unhealthy. Even though they don't hurt me (they used to when H told me something I didn't want to know, like taking HER horsebacking riding on Sweetest Day--I went to camp for horseback riding. He knows how much I love horses and wasted such a sweet gesture on someone else. Same thing with going to the shooting range with her. That's something /I/ always wanted to do, but we couldn't afford the gun rental).

 

Anyway, the conversations aren't hurtful anymore. He mentioned doing 'Secret Santa' for Christmas for his family this year since money is tight for everybody, and that segued into talking about that episode of The Office when they did Secret Santa and laughing about that. He brought up us getting a gift for dd together every year as her 'Santa present' and working out schedules. I'm just trying to paint a picture here. Most of the time, the conversations are fun and entertaining. They are not typically about the relationship and when they are, /he's/ the one who brings it up. We mostly just talk like friends. He avoids mentioning HER at all, even though they are supposedly broken up and just roommates now. He knows how I feel about her and so he doesn't bring her up anymore.

 

Initially, he did some lashing out because I divorced him (he knew we were divorcing but wanted us to do it together...I filed alone and for full custody because I didn't trust him because he kept trying to persuade me into things that weren't in mine or dd's best interests..i.e. $200 a month but not going through Friend of the Court and me NOT getting any FIA assistance). The Sweetest Day thing and the gun range, and a few other miscellaneous incidents were definitely him trying to hurt me (don't know why, seeing as HE is the one who cheated and has someone else). He's stopped all that and has just accepted that I will have physical custody. I've showed him that I don't plan to keep him from his daughter and I help him out in small ways.

 

Can anyone give me a rundown on the idea of 180's or recommend a book for the "I'm trying to move on/not reconciling" or "how to get along with your ex but not give them the idea that you want to reconcile" person?

 

Antha

[Ladyjane14]

I haven't read the books on the 180's...but it sounds like the technique is for reconciling?

 

I would imagine so... It's from Michelle Weiner Davis' book...DivorceBusting

 

How should I behave if I don't want him back, but want to maintain "friendliness" (for lack of a better word)?

 

I posted to another thread just last night where a guy is going through something similar. I'll repost it here for you:

 

 

Originally Posted by SpartanX

My frustration has grown lately because my X talks to me everyday trying to convince me that she has changed and all she really does is make me relive all the bad things she ever did to me. I was starting to move on and get over alot of it.

 

You don't have to allow that. It's perfectly okay for you to set some personal boundaries... ie. "I'm only going to discuss matters pertaining to our child....email is preferable". If you're sure you don't want her back, the clearer you are in maintaining those boundaries, the better off you'll be.

 

It would probably be a wise plan to educate yourself on the co-parenting relationship. You might want to run by the library or bookstore toward that end. There's lots of information available. (I'm sorry though... I don't have any specific titles to recommend to you. )

 

In the meantime, clarity is best. Allowing her to have false hopes or 'letting her down gently' will probably just cause more problems down the road.

 

If you're NOT sure about what you want... I still think you'd do well to set some limits. The last thing you want is to find yourself back in your old situation and feeling manipulated into being there..

 

If you're completely sure that you don't want reconcilliation... I think it might be a good thing for you to concentrate on building confidence in co-parenting. Whenever I'm in doubt.. I turn to books. I'm always ALOT more confident in myself and what I'm doing, when I feel educated on whatever subject is causing me a problem.

 

IOW, if you are worried that your daughter will not have her parenting needs met unless you are "friends" with her father... become an expert on all the available methodology. That way... you can rest assured that you're daughter isn't suffering any losses when you tell her father to 'blow it out his ear'.

 

 

My counselor doesn't think I should talk to him about anything that doesn't involve our daughter or "business", such as car insurance, cell phone bill, etc. He said that these conversations are unhealthy.

 

I agree with your counselor. Your STBX has become accustomed to having TWO women available to meet his ENs (emotional needs). The need for conversation, or to know that you're still 'waiting in the wings', or to assuage his guilt at abandoning his family, or whatever he's getting out of this... is still important enough to him that he initiates the unwanted contact. In essence, you're 'feeding the beast' when you allow it, feeding his ego.... thus prolonging the emotional separation process.

 

I'm unfamiliar with "the 32 list", but if it helps you to establish FIRM boundaries... hey, how bad can it be?

[Gunny376]

Can anyone give me a rundown on the idea of 180's or recommend a book for the "I'm trying to move on/not reconciling" or "how to get along with your ex but not give them the idea that you want to reconcile" person?

 

It would seem the list of 32 would be most applicable ~ but with just kicking it up a notch or two ~ and working on become strong willed and minded enough to consistently apply them. The problem as I see it is that you're going to have to develop some new coping, and inter-personal relationsihp skills and ways of realting with the STBXH, and that mostly you're consistently on an sub-conscious level wanting to always default to the friendship - intimacy relationship mode that you've grown so accustomed to.

 

Anytime it kicks into the default mode or he tries to escalate it beyond being the DD parents, I'd tell him ~ we're no longer an intimate couple in any capacity whatsoever!

[ilmw]

What is it that you want to accomplish, Antha?

Last week, you seemed to be pretty sure that you wanted to divorce him and move on. Is that still the case?

 

I'm no expert on 180's, but my understanding is that they're designed to make YOU more interesting and attractive to your WS. They also serve to "open the cage door" for your spouse, thus removing the bullseye from your forehead.

 

IOW, it's real easy for a generally unhappy person to blame ALL of life's little problems on his mate. When you remove yourself from the chaos, you're no longer representing an authority figure in his life. You're not "controlling" him, and the burden of blame regarding his unhappiness shifts back to him.

 

Odds are.. if you want him back, you might still be able to pull the fat out of the fire. But you can't do that unless you become a MORE ATTRACTIVE alternative to the other path he's chosen. The 180's are designed to make you seem more mysterious and interesting. I've never heard that you shouldn't talk about the relationship... only that you shouldn't be the one to bring it up when you're doing 180.

 

Honesty is great. Vulnerability even, is great... if you allow it to show when you're partner is susceptible to it. If you show your vulnerability when he's NOT ready for it, you come off as whiney and needy. You're exerting more pressure instead of less.

 

I took a quick skim of your other thread, and honestly... this guy needs some work.

I think that if you were to entertain thoughts of reconcillitation, it would be necessary for both of you to get some counceling, and you'd do well to set some boundaries with him.

 

It's not okay to flake out on your family every couple of years, so unless he's willing to address what it is that makes him do that.... you'd just be spinning your wheels.

 

180 here could be.. you never showed your vulnerability and now do as was stated in this post. Or maybe that was the point of this post.... I don't know... I need more sleep.. ... ...

[Antha]

I have always been a very open person; I never saw the point of hiding my feelings. They are obvious and uninhibited. What I don't understand is that I never withdrew from him or hid my feelings. He could always read me like a book because my pages were open to be read. I don't understand why only now he appreciates my nature, whereas he seemed disgusted by my open display of emotion.

 

If he said something that hurt my in our marriage, it was all over my face. He seemed like my honesty and emotion, which is just my nature that I wear on my sleeve, was an annoyance to him, something weak and pathetic. Whether I say my mind now or not, he can hear it in the inflection of my voice or see it in my face...but it doesn't disgust him anymore.

 

Perhaps he enjoys that his actions still effect me, and that he can see the effect he can still have on me. Maybe he likes to know that I still have a small bit of love and affection for him.

 

He doesn't like when I attempt to cloak my feelings from him now. He doesn't like not being able to read my thoughts with a glance...and he becomes cold or mean.

 

Just yesterday, Thanksgiving, I was having a good day. He had our daughter. He called me around 2pm and immediately I noticed his tone of voice was attacking. I called him on it, saying "Why are you using that tone of voice? Why are you in attack-mode?" He brushed it off and kept demanding to know what I had done differently with our daughter because he wasn't able to get her to sleep. He said she hadn't slept at all since he took her from me (an exaggeration, I'm sure; there's no way a 19 month baby stayed away for 24 hours straight).

 

I begged him to let me come pick her up if he didn't want her. He had mentioned 'I'll just cook Thanksgiving dinner and hold her since she won't stop crying'. He was indignant, but refused to give her back to me.

 

I should mention that my mother, sister, and I never have any trouble with getting her to sleep or bouts of crying. The entire day, I let him get to me. I tried to let it go, but I couldn't. I was so angry that he called me up just to yell at me and blame ME because he is incapable of handling his own daughter. Although I knew this was exactly what he wanted, I couldn't shake off the feeling of guilt. I knew I had done nothing wrong. I knew I had done nothing different with her...but he is capable of inflicting false guilt on me.

 

He called today and I let him know that I had been mad (he doesn't like people to be "mad" at him). He said that he was not attacking me until after I got defensive. I can be honest with myself and I know that that is NOT how it happened. I got defensive BECAUSE he skipped the 'hello' and went straight to blaming me for our daughter not sleeping.

 

Having heard her crying miserably in the background, I felt really overwrought and wanted her back. I didn't want them to let her cry and cry so that they could impress their families for Thanksgiving. I hate that it's all about appearances with him and that if it were any other day, he would have gladly dropped her back home with me, but since it was Thanksgiving, he had to show off "his baby" and what a wonderful father he is.

 

Anyway, that's my rant for today.

 

Antha

[Ladyjane14]

He doesn't like when I attempt to cloak my feelings from him now. He doesn't like not being able to read my thoughts with a glance...and he becomes cold or mean.

 

 

So???? ...Why should it be incumbent upon you to care about HIS feelings? Or to share yours with him?

 

He's lost the right to expect that of you. And what ends up happening is you internalize and absorb all his emotional flotsam. Then YOU are the one who feels unhappy, angry, sad, or mean.

 

Just yesterday, Thanksgiving, I was having a good day. He had our daughter. He called me around 2pm and immediately I noticed his tone of voice was attacking. I called him on it, saying "Why are you using that tone of voice? Why are you in attack-mode?" He brushed it off and kept demanding to know what I had done differently with our daughter because he wasn't able to get her to sleep. He said she hadn't slept at all since he took her from me (an exaggeration, I'm sure; there's no way a 19 month baby stayed away for 24 hours straight).

 

I begged him to let me come pick her up if he didn't want her. He had mentioned 'I'll just cook Thanksgiving dinner and hold her since she won't stop crying'. He was indignant, but refused to give her back to me.

 

I should mention that my mother, sister, and I never have any trouble with getting her to sleep or bouts of crying. The entire day, I let him get to me. I tried to let it go, but I couldn't. I was so angry that he called me up just to yell at me and blame ME because he is incapable of handling his own daughter. Although I knew this was exactly what he wanted, I couldn't shake off the feeling of guilt. I knew I had done nothing wrong. I knew I had done nothing different with her...but he is capable of inflicting false guilt on me.

 

He called today and I let him know that I had been mad (he doesn't like people to be "mad" at him). He said that he was not attacking me until after I got defensive. I can be honest with myself and I know that that is NOT how it happened. I got defensive BECAUSE he skipped the 'hello' and went straight to blaming me for our daughter not sleeping.

 

Having heard her crying miserably in the background, I felt really overwrought and wanted her back. I didn't want them to let her cry and cry so that they could impress their families for Thanksgiving. I hate that it's all about appearances with him and that if it were any other day, he would have gladly dropped her back home with me, but since it was Thanksgiving, he had to show off "his baby" and what a wonderful father he is.

 

None of that would have happened if you had REFUSED to engage him in his attack. He was feeling frustrated, and was able to return to his usual target, -->YOU<--, in order to vent off that frustration.

 

If you hadn't responded, who knows?... maybe he'd have had to deal with the situation himself. Better yet, the realities of not having you in his life, and his frustration with same, might have been vented off onto OW.

 

This is the trouble that ALOT of betrayed wives deal with. They end up presenting a rather nice target for the MM and the OW, and unfortunately sometime the BW become the GLUE that binds the adulterers together.

 

In this particular case, OW didn't have to deal with an angry, frustrated man who wasn't getting his own way. She had YOU to do it for her.

 

Honestly Antha, I think your best bet is to let this guy stew in his own juices. Don't allow him to paint a big ole' bullseye on YOUR forehead.

 

If you had said to him something to the effect of... "Well, we really haven't been doing anything special in our sleepy-time ritual... but if you want me to pick her up, I'll be happy to have the extra time to spend with her." ...and then ended the conversation, you'd have blocked him completely.

[Antha]

You are right. I need to prepare for these moments better. I did say just that, that I hadn't done anything different, but it was AFTER I had addressed his snotty tone. I am rightthat OW means Other Woman, and BW is Betrayed Wife? What is MM?

 

Antha

[Gunny376]

OW = Other Woman

MM = Married Man

WS = Wayward Spouse

 

some others (from Divorce Busting Website

 

180 = Another Technique In DB

ACOA = Adult Child of an Alcoholic

ADDY = Address: Email, Snail Mail, Home, Office,

AOBM = Alien on Break Moment

AOM = Almost Other Man

APT = Apartment

ATTY = Attorney

AWGTCHM = Michele's book, A Woman's Guide to Changing Her Man

Big D = Divorce

BIL = brother in law

BTO = Big time operator

BTW = By The Way

D = Divorce Or Daughter

DB = Divorce Busting (Techniques And book by Michele)

DB'ers = Divorce Busters (People At This Site)

DB'n = divorce busting (the technique)

Dbing = divorce busting (the technique)

DD = darling daughter

DH = dear husband, deadbeat husband

DITHL = deer in the headlights

EA = Emotional affair

FAQ = Frequently Answered Questions

FN forum = For Newcomers forum

FWIW = For What Its Worth

FYI = For Your Information

GAL = Get or Getting A Life

GH = Ghost Husband (Not Really Here Any More)

GW = Ghost Wife (Not Really Here Any More)

H = husband

HP = His or her place

HTH = hope this helped

HW = for Home-Wrecker

IAE = In Any Event

ICQ = A chat system which stands for, "I seek you".

ILY = I Love You

IM = instant message

IMHO = in my humble opinion

INS Forum = I Need Support Forum

IOW = In Other Words

KLA = Michele's Keeping Love Alive tape series program

KLA forum = Keeping Love Alive Discussion Group forum (for future)

LF = Lady Friend

LMAO = laughing my a$$ off

LOL = laughing out loud

LR = Last Resort (technique in DB)

LRT = Last Resort Technique (What to do when all else fails)Explained in detail on page 177 in Michele's "Divorce Busting" book

MF = Man Friend

MFC = Messenger 1st Class

MIL = Mother In Law

MLC = Midlife Crisis

MP = My place

NML = No man's land

NPA = Not particularly attractive

NRG = Energy

OEA = Online Emotional Affair

OG = Other Guy

OM = Other man

OOM = Online Other Man

OOW = Online Other Women

OR = our relationship

OW, Ow = Other Woman

PA = physical affair

PMA = Positive Mental Attitude

POV = Point Of View

R = relationship

RIR = Room I Rent

S = Son

SBT = Solution-oriented Brief Therapy (kind of therapy Michele does)

SIL = sister in law

SITD = Still In The Dark

SO = significant other

SOB = son of a bitch

SSW = Sisterhood of Separate Women (variations could be SDW, SSM, SDM, etc.)

STBX = Soon To Be X

STBXOM = Soon to be ex-other man (or guy)

STBXOW = Soon to be ex-other women

TMI = Too much information

UCL = Unconditional Love

W = wife

w/ = with

WAW = Walk Away Wife (a syndrome Michele explains in her article on this site)

WB = Write Back

WTF = what the…, why the…, when the…

WTG = Way To Go

(((((( ))))) or {{{{{{ }}}}}} = hugs!

[dgiirl]

DH = dear husband, deadbeat husband

 

 

 

NPA = Not particularly attractive

 

Never heard this one b4

[Antha]

Hey Gunny. Thanks for that list. It really helps with a lot of these acronyms.