Is it really about unmet needs!

[Ladyjane14]

Great post, MzP.

 

I agree with you. We tend to become emotional sometimes and completely write off the WS. (I'm as guilty of getting mad on somebody else's behalf as anyone. )

 

But I think it's a good thing to occasionally remind ourselves that usually we're NOT dealing with "The Devil Incarnate". We're usually dealing with people who are having a rough time making solid choices.

 

While I do think it's sometimes necessary for a betrayed spouse to toughen up.... I also think they make a huge mistake when they don't address the deficits that caused the initial marital problems. Whether the marriage reconciles or ends, there are important lessons to be learned.

 

Well done. As always, you bring a fresh perspective.

[Guest]

They *both* simply allowed their fear of approaching the subject to win.

 

Exactly. An awful lot of people dread 'confrontation' which is what they call any sort of discussion which might be slightly unpleasant, and certainly telling someone that their actions are causing you grief can be less than fun. So they'll actually choose to find comfort elsewhere rather than ask their spouses for it.

 

I've seen it and heard it from cheaters and know someone who did exactly that. He felt he wasn't getting enough attention from his wife and sought it elsewhere. I urged him to just speak to his wife about it. He did, she paid him more attention, and his situation was improved but he was terrified for a while to even mention it! He had to be pushed to have the discussion.

[Ladyjane14]

Wow... that's a terrific post too, Rio.

 

Sometimes the WS really doesn't communicate what they want. And if it's not a reasonable request... Well, the "need" for sexual excitement outside the marriage isn't something that most of us are going to be willing to fulfill.

 

It's a sad story. Once again, the WS isn't necessarily "The Devil". He's just a guy who got caught up in conflict avoidance and then rationalized his way into allowing the destruction of his marriage.

[Rooster_DAR]

Ecellent post Rio and LadyJane! As always, you have very good objective views that are understandable.

 

I understand that I myself am part of the problem when it came to our relationship, but her deciding to work out of town for 5 months with her co-worker of that which she started having an affair, put me in a spot where I could do nothing about it (we both agreed things were fine until she left). I tried to get her to come home when she became depressed and I felt something was wrong. I myself have been the one that tried to go to therapy, but she does not believe in therapy and thinks things should be worked out on your own.

 

In this case, I really don't know what I could have done to stop this before it all go out of control. When we fought, we would go with silence for up to a week and really never sat down and talked about/resolved the issues, it was just I'm sorry and back to the norm. Also, the fact that she only wanted to be intimate when I initiated it which was about every four to six months on average, told me something else was wrong. On the other hand, we were like best friends and did everything together, and that part we both agree was a strenght in our relationship. I guess I understand where I went wrong, and I will admit I shy away from honest open communication although I really want it. I just don't have the tools or expertise neccesary to use them. This is something I vowed to try to master before I try another relationship.

 

Great posts!

[Rooster_DAR]

Note that, too, he and his wife *did not* have fluently working methods of verbal communication between them -nor did they try to work past any failures of the first few initials attempts of communication when the subject of decreased sexual satisfaction or dwindling romance and displays of affection was brought up

 

I noticed this statement almost always comes up when cheating/affairs are the case. This is exactly one of the problems my EX and I were facing, her complete lack of interesest in sex and intimacy (at least with me). I have been reading a boot called "Womens Infedelity" which has opened my eyes up to the possible reasons this happens, and forced me to go into analytical mode to figure out how to address the issue. I believe on my end, instead of backing off and discussing the problem, I in turn started initiating more attempts to have sex which caused the problem to worsen for her.

 

There were many times I tried to bring up the problems with sex, but she would be very vague and wishy washy about anything and didn't want to talk about it. She has told be she was sexually abused by her dads friends when she was a kid, so I can't hep to guess that this had something to do with it. Anyway, good posts RIO and very insightful.

 

REgards,

[riobikini]

RoosterDAR: " She has told be she was sexually abused by her dads friends when she was a kid, so I can't hep to guess that this had something to do with it."

 

OK -cat out of the bag, here.

 

Sexual abuse is a big issue -if it hasn't been dealt with.

 

I, personally, suspect that -if she held the same hardheaded view about this as she does about your relationship problems (that things should be worked out without the help of a professional) -she probably *hasn't* dealt seriously or forthrightly dead-on with the issues of her past sexual abuse to move beyond it.

 

And that issue just *doesn't* resovle itself, Rooster.

 

Briefover of my own personal account with that subject: you can try to run from it, attempt to bury it, ignore it, or whatever method it is that you're trying to use to create the illusion that it didn't really happen -and *still* you're going to come face-to-face with this particular monster when you least expect it -or your emotions can least afford it.

 

Then you have to deal.

 

And deal seriously with it in order to put it to rest.

 

Professional services is the best and most effective way to get back on track -and your lady is deliberately avoiding the best help that's available as if it were the plague.

 

Trouble is, *you* can't bring that cure to her -it's one of those things she has to go and get for herself.

 

-Rio

[Mz. Pixie]

Translated, that statement is usually, "We almost never have sex", or " The sex we have is blah ".

 

Yes, while it was wrong that he cheated, he still deserved to have a sexually available partner.

 

 

She was a good wife, mother, friend and partner. So was he

This was my case as well. He was a good person.

 

, in this situation, women are able to find more outlets that fulfill their need for affection and love than men. She found her outlet through caring for her children, through her church, her friends, and her job

 

This is what I did for a long, long, time. However the fulfillment just isn't the same.

 

 

 

f both partners do nothing to confront the existing problem, they are both dead certain to lose

 

AMEN!

 

When two people aren't touching or communicationg effectively, either physically or through conversation, a great big chasm develops bewteen you, and it gets bigger and bigger the longer you ignore it

 

This is one reason why women get conditioned to believe that affection displayed by a husband who doesn't hardly ever touch them means they are only interested in sex, which in turn makes the woman shut down.

 

If the male partner finally does concede, in human weakness, to pursue an affair, I think there is a very crucial responsibility that has to be recognized by both partners: their responsibility to the relationship as equal partners in acknowledging and confronting problems within their marriage/partnership.

 

This is the same as if a woman has an affair as well, out of weakness.

 

This was a great, thought provoking post Rio.

[Kathleen2260]

I believe affairs can start because of unmet needs but in reality at one time or another we all have needs that aren't met 100% of the time and not everyone is unfaithful. So it is more of an excuse for the cheater to use to justify his or her behavior. We all have unmet needs it is how we deal with them that matters.

[Rooster_DAR]

I believe affairs can start because of unmet needs but in reality at one time or another we all have needs that aren't met 100% of the time and not everyone is unfaithful. So it is more of an excuse for the cheater to use to justify his or her behavior. We all have unmet needs it is how we deal with them that matters.

 

Agreed, and this sums it up. This, as always, seems to boil down to communications at the finest level of maturity. If there is a hole in the communications, there will be a hole in the relationship I surmise.

[riobikini]

re:

 

 

 

Rio: "When two people aren't touching or communicationg effectively, either physically or through conversation, a great big chasm develops bewteen you, and it gets bigger and bigger the longer you ignore it .."

 

MzPixie:" This is one reason why women get conditioned to believe that affection displayed by a husband who doesn't hardly ever touch them means they are only interested in sex, which in turn makes the woman shut down. "

 

 

But here's the snarl in that ball of string: he doesn't come to her for "affection" (touching, loving looks, soft gestures) -yet, he initiates attempts at sex with her on a seldom basis -often during which he is either received with obvious hesitation, or is rejected, altogether.

 

(Keep in mind, that no matter what she's thinking about the move, he's thinking along traditional male avenues of thought -and her rejection/hesitation is doing nothing but damage in improving *his* self-confidence in wanting to have sex with his partner.)

 

Later, when he is found cheating and mired to the neck in an affair, he is condemed to near death for his infidelity.

 

So let's back it up a bit: what about changing the circumstances of that scenario at the moment where he extends his invitation for sex with a more *subtle* approach -perhaps, a more romantic, less crudely choreographed, non-threatening approach?

 

The whole idea, it seems, is to allow her to be in a less "meat-market" train of thought influenced by his sudden gestures.

 

A better approach might increase the chances of her being more receptive (though it certainly doesn't guarantee it) and -if they *both* just choose to focus on getting the *romance* back in their relationship for a few more sessions (without necessarily concentrating on a goal of actually ending it with having sex) -could this be a start to reviving the whole relationship and getting past the crisis?

 

I think we all just miss the moments where opportunity is present; situational opportunity is fleeting and I think we have to be willing to see the windows that are there -and even be determined enough to boldly create a few which weren't there, sometimes.

 

(Smile)

 

-Rio

[riobikini]

RoosterDar: " If there is a hole in the communications, there will be a hole in the relationship I surmise."

 

Yep! -One that may never get plugged, so to speak.

 

 

-Rio

[Mustang Sally]

Most men will probably never get it because we are not mind readers. Women need to be clearer on what needs aren't being met, not just some mumbo jumbo left up to the man to decipher.

 

I agree, Rooster, that some partners in a relationship (I refuse to specify that it's only women, just as I won't specify that it's only men who don't "get it") may be cryptic, or too subtle, or afraid, or whatever, to really state their needs implicitly. However, as Ms Pixie, (or was it Ladyjane?) so nicely stated, some times it IS stated clearly (such as I did, basically listing off specific examples of things...) and one still chooses to deny, deny, deny any responsiblilty. I don't know your personal circumstance, maybe your wife was speaking another language to you. But please, let's not assume things based on gender stereotypes.

[Scrivdog]

Ok, and what if you tell your partner and he/she doesn't care to acknowledge or do anything about it? What then?

 

Is cheating/affairs really always about unmet needs. I really feel like it can be, but I also feel like people use this to minimize their guilt and possibly justify their behaviour. To me if you have unmet needs, you need to talk to you partner about them before you run off with someone else to get them fulfilled.

 

Regards,

[Mustang Sally]

I think then you have limited options. Such as what I am looking at now.

1) Go to counseling (with or withOUT your spouse)

2) Leave the relationship

3) I guess one could cheat, but this is not a socially acceptable option.

 

Have I missed anything?

[riobikini]

Re:

 

Scrivdog: " Ok, and what if you tell your partner and he/she doesn't care to acknowledge or do anything about it? What then? "

 

Happens everyday: someone says something -and the person they're saying it to doesn't understand the meaning of the words, or the imperitiveness/importance of the words, or understands but their "give-a-damn" function is busted.

 

If they truly don't understand -clarify; use words they *do* understand.

 

If they hear you but are overlooking how important your words are -take the *time* to clamly, clearly point out how strongly you feel about what you are saying.

 

If they hear you, understand you -but just don't care, chances are your relationship has been in crisis for longer than perhaps, even *you* realize.

 

To find out if it still has potential to be revived (and if a good seed of communication can't be established between you, all by yourselves) you might need marriage/couples counseling.

 

If you can see, clearly, that there's not a snowball's chance in hell it'll work, don't run off and have an affair, or stay in the marriage "for the sake of the kids" -dissolve the relationship legally, fairly, peacefully, and respectfully.

 

And learn from all the mistakes you have experienced.

 

-Rio

[Scrivdog]

No. I'd say you pretty much got it.

1) I dunno if that helps, especially if you go on your own.

2) If you have kids, that's hardly an option.

3) You're right, but it's a helluva lot better than ..

 

4) Go celibate

 

I think then you have limited options. Such as what I am looking at now.

1) Go to counseling (with or withOUT your spouse)

2) Leave the relationship

3) I guess one could cheat, but this is not a socially acceptable option.

 

Have I missed anything?

[riobikini]

OK (Smile) forget the "clamly" option.

 

And MS, you are right on!!

 

-Rio

[Scrivdog]

Rio,

 

You can only press the point so far before your spouse gets annoyed and asks you to stop whining. When the spouse doesn't want to acknowledge, the message won't get through until, of course, when an affair or divorce happens.

 

Saying the spouse didn't get it the first few times is just horsesh*t. You can't fault the hurting spouse for assuming that the partner in question doesn't care to do anything about it.

 

As to ending the marriage, you have to understand that for men this means only seeing your children every other week. That's a very high price to pay to be honorable in the eyes of of one's surrounding shlebs.

 

So if you love your kids too much not to see them every day, your choices become ..

 

1) Cheat and take your chances on not getting caught.

2) Remain in a state of emotional and physical deprivation

[Mustang Sally]

No. I'd say you pretty much got it.

1) I dunno if that helps, especially if you go on your own.

2) If you have kids, that's hardly an option.

3) You're right, but it's a helluva lot better than ..

 

4) Go celibate

 

Scriv,

I understand what you mean about the kids. I have 4. Last week I finally started to think about what it would really mean to leave the M. I can't do it because of them. Sometimes the M is so messed up, I think it's better for everyone to end it (kids included) but my M still includes civility towards one another when kids are around. No loud fighting, or name calling that the kids hear. I think this is largely because my H is ignoring that I am having issues! (Hence back to the orig topic of this thread.) Despite my blatantly telling him this multiple times (specifically - see above). I've contemplated an affair, but know this is just an open door to an even BIGGER mess. Celibacy is not an option for me - I'm too much of a horny 30-something woman! Fortunately, H is like a vending machine: put quarter in, get boner out. He doesn't even get it that it's now "just sex" for me. Maybe you can swing something like that with your signif other? I suppose, with time, maybe the "just sex" will return to the "love and passion" that we had long ago....?

[Scrivdog]

MS,

 

If raw sex was just the issue, I'd see more hookers. But some of guys do need the emotional connection and we also need not to get yelled at every day because the spouse happens to feel angry for something we had nothing to do with.

[riobikini]

re:

 

Scrivdog: " the message won't get through until, of course, when an affair or divorce happens."

 

So you're buying time with your children until this situation bursts forth spewing all manner of nastiness all over all of you.

 

But I do understand your love for your children and your anguish over the scenario you perceive regarding how things will be with the separation from them on a daily basis.

 

Actually, even daily contact of some kind with your children is *possible* -even in the nastiest divorces.

 

You have stated that you have only two choices: stay in the marriage and be deprived of a sexual/romantic/close relationship with your wife -or have an affair and take the risk of being found out and all that ensues.

 

I agree that this is a dismal perception of your present and future.

 

But I do not agree that it represents all of the choices available to you.

 

Look, in remaining with your wife -who (indicated by you) apparently no longer wants a close intimate/romantic relationship with you- you may be sacrificing some of your most important personal desires in order to "purchase" time with your children.

 

But at some point, inevitably, perhaps, years down the road, you'll find yourself confronted by tons of resentment towards her for forcing you into such a miserable existence.

 

And that kind of misery can't be hidden for very long: it has to come out.

 

I am not an advocate for divorce as the answer to every problem in marriage -but I believe that, in some situations, there is simply no other answer available.

 

With divorce, sometimes, with certain circumstances, I feel it's more like trimming back the branches of a great tree to allow for new, healthy regrowth rather than digging it up by the roots -although, I realize that, in the middle of all that pain you can't tell the difference.

 

I think, in some of these more difficult cases, sacrificing a few old branches to ensure the overall health and well-being of (you) the "oak" is the only remedy that makes sense.

 

And I think your fear of not seeing your children as often is what's mainly driving your thoughts right now.

 

Yet, it's tougher when you are "branded" a cheater.

 

SD, I hear you saying you love your children, and I am keenly aware from your post that you are fearful of losing time with them -but it's important to also keep your respect with them, and living in sacrificial misery is not the answer.

 

-Rio

[Scrivdog]

Rio,

 

Very well thought out post.I just have to disagree on the last part. I don't believe that my kids will direspect me if I stayed for their sake. At worst, they may think is was unnecessary. But I'm close to them, and I'm very even tempered.

 

They need me there and I need to be there for them every day.

[Mustang Sally]

MS,

 

If raw sex was just the issue, I'd see more hookers. But some of guys do need the emotional connection and we also need not to get yelled at every day because the spouse happens to feel angry for something we had nothing to do with.

 

I didn't mean to imply that men don't need an emotional connection. All humans need an emotional connection. I was just sharing that, in my personal situation, the availablilty of sex is certainly not an issue. Now - if you ask if the sex is an emotional connection, well then, that's an entirely different story at this point (for me, that is - I don't think so for him).

 

Rio has an excellent post, above. I worry for you about the built-up resentment as she has stated. I know I also worry about this aspect for me, when I think of the next 20+ years in this state.

 

What, if you please, does your wife tell you are her issues/unmet needs?

[Scrivdog]

MS,

 

I've asked this question many times. All I can gather is that she thinks everything is ok. Except she does complain that I don't fix things around the house as much as she'd like me to. I try, but I HATE it and I'm no good at it. So I generally just hire a guy to do it.

[Rooster_DAR]

What, if you please, does your wife tell you are her issues/unmet needs?

 

I need more money to blow.