Is it really about unmet needs!

[Ladyjane14]

I see, so you think temptation sets in after not having your needs met for a few minutes?

 

And do you think 25 years is the equivalent of "a few minutes"?

 

Dude... we fought like cats and dogs for over TEN of those 25 years. Our marriage was emotionally dead. And yet... it was still recovered. Miracles can happen when you roll your sleeves up and ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS.

 

There it is.. you do not understand the problem. You think you do. It's like you think you know what being homeless is like because you couldn't find the keys to your Summer home in the Hamptons for a until the nice gas station attendant helped with a flashlight.

 

In acutuality, I understand the problem very well. I just don't AGREE with your solution to it. I think maybe you've got your head stuck in the sand on this particular point.

 

And I find your "Summer home in the Hamptons" analogy hysterically funny, btw.

I grew up so poor there were times when we lived in places without running water or heat. I gained 5 pounds at my first weigh-in during military basic training... because I was finally eating three meals a day. And I gained that weight during a significant increase in physical activity, marching for miles each day plus daily calisthenics.

 

But even though I was poor and sometimes hungry... I managed not to steal anything. Go figure.

 

That doesn't mean that I never made any mistakes. I cheated on every boyfriend I ever had, right up 'til my husband. And on one occasion I cheated with somebody else's husband.

 

I can forgive myself for my mistakes, even while I still regret them , because I was desperately young, not yet 21. But I grew up and LEARNED to treat myself with respect and dignity because I don't like feeling bad about myself. These days, I don't put myself in a position where I have failed to uphold my core values.

 

How can you teach a child that it's wrong to shoplift candy at the store... and yet help yourself to a little "candy" on the side?

 

Core value. If I go against it... I'm the one who suffers. It's self-inflicted injury.

 

You only have to bump your head so many times before you learn NOT TO BUMP YOUR HEAD.

[Ladyjane14]

Well if you are having a PA without having sex within your M then you are not exposing that W/H to STD's. I am playing devils advocate here. Because some are indeed not getting any form of sex in a M and having PA's.

 

I guess it would depend on each person's individual conscience (or lack thereof) at that point.

 

That said, I have to imagine that the primary relationship would likely be deficient in emotional intimacy. I don't think such a cold marriage is the best model for kids. That is, if we're attempting to teach them about traditional monogamous marriage.

 

But... I think if we're honest about the deficits in our relationship, they ought to become savvy enough to perceive that "the model" is of little use to them.

 

(I don't know why it wouldn't be appropriate to go to an "open marriage" format at that point though. If the marriage has become a room-mate scenario, why hide it? )

[Mustang Sally]

Scrivdog,

As someone who admittedly has not walked a mile, nay, even an inch, in your specific shoes, might you enlighten me (and maybe others) more on exactly what your needs/wants be they appropriate or inappropriate are? Let us in on the specifics of your situation a bit more?

 

Because I'm trying to understand exactly where you are coming from, really. Honest Abe. And hearing others' stories frequently helps me figure out my own. But after the last few posts of yours, I'm thinking the following:

 

1) I'm having a hard time (even with your explanation about your kids) understanding WHY you are staying in such a relationship

 

and

2) Your wife most certainly must also have significant issues, and maybe, just maybe, you might really have an idea what those are, despite you telling me previously that you are unaware of what they might be.

 

And if this has all been discussed in another thread somewhere, please direct me, as I am relatively new to this forum and must have missed it.

[riobikini]

So I've read through the latest pages of postings in this thread -and it seems that, now, we're looking for that "secret" ingredient that keeps someone from cheating.

 

And we're interested in how much God and morals have to do with all that.

 

(Smile)

 

OK.

 

re:

 

Scrivdog: " Of course everybody has been tempted, sure. So now everybody knows what it's like, right?

 

This is precisely what leads you to deceiving yourself into a sense of moral superiority. Because you think that you've faced the very same circumstances but unlike the waywards, you think you were protected by your higher standards of ethics. "

 

 

I agree that some wind up in this "rock-and-a-hard-place" kind of hell where they've cried, begged, pleaded for months -even years- with their partner to " P-l-e-a-s-e hear me!"

 

But he/she doesn't -and just rolls on without a care or concern.

 

Let's even go so far as to name exactly in what ways you have tried to wake up this seemingly deaf partner: you tried a surprise long weekend at home (part romantic/part "let's talk about what's wrong"); you suggested a vacation or getaway (same goals); you brought up marriage counseling (he/she wouldn't go -so you went all by yourself but dropped out after the first couple of sessions); you threatened to leave (he/she didn't seem to care); you screamed you wanted a divorce (but there was almost no reaction -not one you'd hoped for- so you didn't file, after all, but paid the lawyer you'd already seen, anyway); you tried again, to start over by attracting his/her attention through physical means (it didn't work: you might as well have been a piece of furniture); you actually told him/her that you were thinking about having an affair -and he/she returned an unexpected answer of "Why?" .

 

So, now, you are *forced* to cheat.

 

Not true.

 

You do the right, decent, and respectful thing -if you aren't prepared to stay in the relationship knowing what you'll continue to have to live with- and *legally* end the relationship.

 

Scriv, what you've been doing in these last posts with all these back-to-the-wall challenges to other's perceived so-called morality is just turning the screws into your own flesh more deeply.

 

But I can see why your situation is making you feel so angry and desperate that you at the point where just lashing out is all that's left.

 

You're looking for someone to partner with who *totally* understands your situation and no one seems to be a good candidate, right now.

 

Two main reasons they don't quite make the cut as a candidate for your corner: one-they haven't cheated; two -they are not as angry as you, at the moment.

 

They fact they haven't cheated is the part that angers you: they come off as "holier-than-thou", or somehow stronger than you -and right now, you're already feeling like s_it and don't need the extra slap in the face -or a reminder that you might be lacking in some kind of superhuman strength that everyone except you seems to be blessed with.

 

Also -probably, somewhere in the back of *your* mind- you're wondering if their (or anyone's) circumstances have really been as "hard-core" as yours.

 

Despite all the assumptions I've written above, no one knows the real answer here, except *you* as to where you're actually coming from in regards to your anger, frustration and the circumstances you are presently in.

 

Some can get close, though. Some folks, here really *do* know what it's like to be locked in a relationship that lost all communication, became a sort of jail, were subsequently tempted by someone else, succumbed to the temptation, and inevitably found themselves sucked into a vortex of neverending hell in regards to the damage, misery, and cost to their lives and the lives of those they never even thought about who wound up affected and tortured by the affair.

 

What folks have been saying to you here, though, is that it is certainly, entirely *possible* to *choose* the opposite of having an affair.

 

It doesn't imply that everyone will be successful in avoiding an affair, or that it somehow makes you so much lesser to have serious thoughts about doing it or *have* actually already had an affair -it simply means that some folks -for whatever reasons- have been successful with *not* doing it.

 

There's no rank here -just a success rate, that's all.

 

The details of everyone's background schemata and the very personal and individual circumstances they bring to the forum are all different -and *that* (would be my best guess, kind of a “no-brainer”, to me) as to why some choose not to cheat, and some choose not to resist in regards to having affairs.

 

I don't think there's a secret formula for not cheating -although I think you can’t get around the fact that your life experiences do influence your choices- and even if you were raised without a shred of moral teaching, I still think that simple, old-fashioned bulldog stubborness might work just as well (in a pinch) to help you make the choice *not* to cheat.

 

Hope some of this makes sense to someone.

 

Take care.

 

-Rio

[Scrivdog]

MS,

 

1) I feel like I get very little sex and/or affection. I'm the recipient of her anger and bad moods whether they're presumably caused by me or not. So as a result, I feel like I give and give, and get nothing in return. In fact I get slapped.

 

I stay right now for the kids because we're very close and I'm not so sure, despite armchair pychologists' verdicts, that it would be good for them for me to be gone from the home.

 

2) I don't know what, if anything I'm lacking in. Like I said before, I asked many times for some actionable feedback. But I've never gotten any. She has mentioned that she just thinks maybe my needs are more than what she can give. In other words, "take it or leave it".

 

I hope this helps

[Mz. Pixie]

Do you really know where you have to be to get to the point where you actually do this? You may think you do, but you don't, sorry.

 

This is a valid point guys, IMO. I've been there. I do truly believe you can sympathize and feel that you know where you have to be to do that (unless you're a serial cheater and have no morals whatsoever) but you don't really know- unless you cross the line. It's not a fun place to be, or to even acknowledge later.

 

However, it still was wrong, very wrong, and I shouldn't have done it.

 

Scriv- what are you going to do when you get caught???? You never answered my questions about those issues in my earlier post.

[Scrivdog]

MzP,

 

I was going to mention you earlier. You definitely are the only one here that I know who can actually speak from experience. While I appreciate the opinion of others .. yours carry weight in a way others do not.

 

The day I get caught. You mean "that day". It's like when I think of my death someday. It's "oh .. that day". I think you know what I mean.

 

I can tell you one thing. That day, if and when it comes, will be a different story from that other poor shleb, Hardtothink. You won't catch me asking for reconciliation.

[Mustang Sally]

So are you waiting for her to make the first move to end it? And the A would give her a reason to snap out of her complacency and have an emotion? Kind of like you're trying to give her shock therapy, or something? Or is it more that you are out to hurt her back for all the hurt she's put you through?

 

Or something else entirely? This is just what I'm able to make from your replies. Lead me down a different path if I don't have it right.

[Rooster_DAR]

So I've read through the latest pages of postings in this thread -and it seems that, now, we're looking for that "secret" ingredient that keeps someone from cheating.

 

Hope some of this makes sense to someone.

 

Take care.

 

-Rio

Makes perfect sense to me! I read a recent article posted by a group of scientists and psychologists and they quoted "People who cheat/ have affairs tend to be clumsy at commitment and love, where people who are able to maintain monogamy tend to be more intellect and more evolved emotionally". Whether that's speculation or not, I tend to think they are probably correct. The only time I've ever cheated was when I was sixteen years old, and I was trying to be cool for my buddies.

 

That backfired on me because both chicks dumped me, but not after I saw how badly it hurt them. From that day on, I have never let myself (and vowed to it) get into a situation where I would cheat after a commitment to my partner is made. I have been tempted, and been close enough to do so, but instead I walked away from the situation (Why?). I do believe people can make mistakes, and nobody is impervious to the destruction of infidelity, but I do believe people can make the choice and choose not to cross that line. I do certainly understand how it can be much easier for someone who has been ignored with their pleas, or abused physically or emotionally, but the decision still is made regardless.

 

My recent EX did more than enough to send me into the arms of another woman at times, and she probably would say "I don't know why he didn’t cheat at times" if you ask her. Simple, I just made a promise and stuck to it with pride and integrity and a fundamental understanding of commitment. Now, many cases aren't extreme as what I just described, and the recent posts of people who have been cheated on LS seem to point to a different type of infidelity, and it's a selfish one. I have just read some heartbreaking threads where the pour soles are still in love with their S/O and they are nearly blind sighted by the discovery (although this could indicate they were out of touch with relationship as well). After reading into their posts a bit, it seems these were very nice men and women who's partner just decided to act for whatever reason, my guess would be selfishness (that man is attractive, I deserve it cause I've raised 2 kids for 3 years) or (he's out of town all the time, and I need to have some fun).

 

We don't know them so we can only presume, but it appears to me that people decide to runoff and cheat instead of dealing with the underlying issues, that is selfish and violates the commitment. Lot's of people that posts here use things like "I'm not in love with my partner anymore" and "this guy at work is so attentive, he makes my blood warm" thing for the reasoning why they cheated, and not understanding these feelings are somewhat normal. Often we let our feelings for someone else impede all reasoning, and that's probably because we failed to understand what that feeling is and/or lost our boundaries. I have been close to that situation, but my intelligence and experience knows that it's just a chemical reaction due to our biological and emotional need to pair sexually, and if I'm to hold my commitment, I need to practice my boundaries.

 

For me though, the biggest reasons I don't cheat/affair is because I stop and think about "how much I really love my S/O", "how destructive this behavior is", and I hold my self as a man with great integrity. Before anyone commits to a relationship, they need to have a good understanding of what a commitment is, the repercussions of infidelity, and what the natural attraction to others really is. I know it's not all black and white, but it's clearly achievable.

 

Cheers!

[Rooster_DAR]

A4a,

 

Then, like I said, you just "ain't been there". I equate it to well-fed people not really understanding what drives someone to steal for food. You may be able to conceptualize this in your mind in an academic sense, but you have no advice nor empathy to offer to someone who has actually done this.

 

This sounds like rationalizing or minimizing to me.

[Wantingtogetitright]

MzP,I can tell you one thing. That day, if and when it comes, will be a different story from that other poor shleb, Hardtothink. You won't catch me asking for reconciliation.

 

Get out now before anything happens. You have made your mind up that you want to be with this other person, even if briefly to satisfy whatever need you think you have. Regardless of that you obviously have no respect or commitment to your current SO.

 

Do not put her through the life altering experience of being cheated on. It will make any future realtionships doubly hard as this is something you do not fully get over.

[Trialbyfire]

Makes perfect sense to me! I read a recent article posted by a group of scientists and psychologists and they quoted "People who cheat/ have affairs tend to be clumsy at commitment and love, where people who are able to maintain monogamy tend to be more intellect and more evolved emotionally". Whether that's speculation or not, I tend to think they are probably correct. The only time I've ever cheated was when I was sixteen years old, and I was trying to be cool for my buddies.

 

That backfired on me because both chicks dumped me, but not after I saw how badly it hurt them. From that day on, I have never let myself (and vowed to it) get into a situation where I would cheat after a commitment to my partner is made. I have been tempted, and been close enough to do so, but instead I walked away from the situation (Why?). I do believe people can make mistakes, and nobody is impervious to the destruction of infidelity, but I do believe people can make the choice and choose not to cross that line. I do certainly understand how it can be much easier for someone who has been ignored with their pleas, or abused physically or emotionally, but the decision still is made regardless.

 

My recent EX did more than enough to send me into the arms of another woman at times, and she probably would say "I don't know why he didn’t cheat at times" if you ask her. Simple, I just made a promise and stuck to it with pride and integrity and a fundamental understanding of commitment. Now, many cases aren't extreme as what I just described, and the recent posts of people who have been cheated on LS seem to point to a different type of infidelity, and it's a selfish one. I have just read some heartbreaking threads where the pour soles are still in love with their S/O and they are nearly blind sighted by the discovery (although this could indicate they were out of touch with relationship as well). After reading into their posts a bit, it seems these were very nice men and women who's partner just decided to act for whatever reason, my guess would be selfishness (that man is attractive, I deserve it cause I've raised 2 kids for 3 years) or (he's out of town all the time, and I need to have some fun).

 

We don't know them so we can only presume, but it appears to me that people decide to runoff and cheat instead of dealing with the underlying issues, that is selfish and violates the commitment. Lot's of people that posts here use things like "I'm not in love with my partner anymore" and "this guy at work is so attentive, he makes my blood warm" thing for the reasoning why they cheated, and not understanding these feelings are somewhat normal. Often we let our feelings for someone else impede all reasoning, and that's probably because we failed to understand what that feeling is and/or lost our boundaries. I have been close to that situation, but my intelligence and experience knows that it's just a chemical reaction due to our biological and emotional need to pair sexually, and if I'm to hold my commitment, I need to practice my boundaries.

 

For me though, the biggest reasons I don't cheat/affair is because I stop and think about "how much I really love my S/O", "how destructive this behavior is", and I hold my self as a man with great integrity. Before anyone commits to a relationship, they need to have a good understanding of what a commitment is, the repercussions of infidelity, and what the natural attraction to others really is. I know it's not all black and white, but it's clearly achievable.

 

Cheers!

Exactly!!

 

Work on the underlying issues instead of looking elsewhere for an escape. If it's impossible to work it out, get out before you tear everyone apart when you get caught.

 

I've had some serious temptation cross my path but have never cheated. There's a line in the sand that you can't cross without losing a part of your integrity. No matter how you try to justify cheating, it is a loss of part of your morality.

[silktricks]

Cheating is definitely a loss of integrity. Not saying that it can't be gotten back, because I believe it can. But it takes work to restore yourself not only in your partner's eyes, but your own.

[Scrivdog]

All the reasons you mentioned relate to me doing something to my wife. It's none of those. I do it because I want love, affection, and sex every so often and so far I can only get it from somebody else right now. It's as simple as that.

 

 

So are you waiting for her to make the first move to end it? And the A would give her a reason to snap out of her complacency and have an emotion? Kind of like you're trying to give her shock therapy, or something? Or is it more that you are out to hurt her back for all the hurt she's put you through?

 

Or something else entirely? This is just what I'm able to make from your replies. Lead me down a different path if I don't have it right.

[Scrivdog]

This sounds like rationalizing or minimizing to me.

 

And what would you base such an deeply insightful conclusion on?

[Scrivdog]

TrialbyFire,

 

Yawn ..

 

That's the typical response. "Just leave!" or "Try and work it out". These responses further prove my point that unless you've been there, you can't know how silly this advice sounds.

 

"Just leave" means leaving my kids and moving to an apartment somewhere where I get to see them once every other week. If you don't have kids, or you don't care about them, then please do those who do a favor and stop with this stupid suggestion. You think that already hasn't been considered?

 

"Try and work it out" or "deal with the issues" once again operates from the comforting assumption that the other partner someone with whom one can work something out with. No matter how much someone like me asserts that this has been tried already for years, the response invariably is something to the effect of not having tried hard enough. In fact I still hear the "have you tried a hot bath together?" suggestion for people in my position.

 

THIS is what I mean by not having been there, and therefore not knowing really what the situation is likw. You may think you know it, but you really don't. You can read all you want about Paris and know more about it than the the person who goes there for a year. But the person who was there is really the only one who knows what it's like.

[a4a]

Exactly!!

 

Work on the underlying issues instead of looking elsewhere for an escape. If it's impossible to work it out, get out before you tear everyone apart when you get caught.

 

I've had some serious temptation cross my path but have never cheated. There's a line in the sand that you can't cross without losing a part of your integrity. No matter how you try to justify cheating, it is a loss of part of your morality.

 

 

In some, but not all, cases I don't think it has a thing to do with temptation. It has to do with not getting a bit of affection, love, or appreciation from your spouse- unmet needs indeed. IMHO if that is the case and you have exhausted all options divorce is in order. But I can understand why some do not want to become weekend parents, lose their home, screw up their finances.

 

I don't think it is a matter of needing to justify it, it is a matter of looking at reality for many. As for morality- that is up to the individual to set those standards for themselves.

 

I am betting in the vast majority of cases with individuals involved in A's they wish their M could be what they need or want. I am guessing at that, but I think many would agree.

[Scrivdog]

a4a,

 

I'd say you're right on ..!

[a4a]

a4a,

 

I'd say you're right on ..!

 

Well SD I am really sad for you. I do not mean that in a sarcastic manner. I truly mean that. It has to suck to want your M to be wonderful and have a partner that just does not give a shyte enough to try to make it work.

 

 

Yeah go take a bath..... light some candles....

 

My bet is if you get caught she will be pissed but just hang in there anyway. Maybe go get herself into an A on her own. Roommate situation may work for you... open M of sorts until the kids are grown. I am guessing she doesn't give a crap enough to really care if you are with someone else..... hell that way she doesn't have to fulfill that need. Kinda like having a maid to do the job for you.

 

I am also guessing that you still feel bad about your A? Guilt, desire to have a good M? At some point you realized it was a losing battle and just resigned yourself to my M is what it is, it will not change, I cannot change her...... so I will stay because if I do not not only I will suffer but my kids too..... but I will just get what I need elsewhere..... my guess is that you are not even angry about your M at this point... just sad and hopeless about it. Your comfort there is you being a fulltime parent and holding onto what little stability and goodness that is in your household..... marital orts.

 

I am guessing but I know I have felt that way. - it sucks!

 

I am guessing that you have tried all the tricks in the book, blunt communication, begged, pleaded, and even stomped?

 

You are a almost exact duplicate of my friend and his current situation. He actually bailed out on a business trip...... yeah..... business right! I can so understand why I see and know what goes on in that house. I so understand why he left for month on business....... my guess is he has a g/f overseas at this point.

[NoIDidn't]

All the reasons you mentioned relate to me doing something to my wife. It's none of those. I do it because I want love, affection, and sex every so often and so far I can only get it from somebody else right now. It's as simple as that.

 

But it IS something you are doing to her. You are betraying her trust. She may think that things are just fine and you are going along with her thoughts all the while getting what you want and need from someone else. Any woman or man in this position would want to know the truth. You aren't giving her that by cheating behind her back.

 

So you ARE doing something to her. And to the kids you love so much. Betraying the very trust that you put their family security before your own needs, but that isn't really happening. They might understand, but they may never agree once they see what it will do to their mother (if she and they find out about it).

 

I am not interested in judging you, but the truth is you ARE doing something to them/her. Put the shoe on the other foot: wouldn't you feel that she was doing something to you if you found out that she too was getting her needs met someplace else and didn't bother to tell you (all you get is this distant removed person)? So its not as simple as you put it.

[Scrivdog]

NoIDidn't,

 

I was answering the question posed to me as to why I'm having an A. The reasons given to me to pick from all had to do about what I'm doing to her. While I'm not so dense as to think this would have no effect on her, it's not the motivating factor. In other words, I'm not having an A in order to get back at the wife. I'm doing it to fulfill needs of mine.

 

Please feel free to let me know if this still sounds all confusing to you.

[NoIDidn't]

Scrivdog

 

I didn't take it the way you did. But you already answered the question of why concerning your kids and how you don't want to be a weekend parent. So no, no more confusion.

 

Its just a shame that it has to be what it is.

[Mustang Sally]

I can tell you one thing. That day, if and when it comes, will be a different story from that other poor shleb, Hardtothink. You won't catch me asking for reconciliation.

 

I was referring to the above when I asked those questions of you, Scrivdog, in my previous post. As you have resigned yourself to "that day" like the eventual reality of your own mortality, and aren't planning to make amends when it comes, it just seemed to me that you would almost relish the reaction from your W when she finds out...as if she can then "pay" by feeling the hurt, or be the one to break it off, so you don't have to.

 

You're right. I guess I don't really get where you're coming from. I think I would probably have to leave, and take the kids with me, if they are not safe with her. But I do wish you some reasonable resolution to your dilemma.

[Scrivdog]

MS,

 

Sure, you're a female. So you can take the kids with you. Highly unlikely for men to be able to do the same. And I never said she wasn't safe ..

[BeenAround_N_Back]

 

We don't know them so we can only presume, but it appears to me that people decide to runoff and cheat instead of dealing with the underlying issues, that is selfish and violates the commitment. Lot's of people that posts here use things like "I'm not in love with my partner anymore" and "this guy at work is so attentive, he makes my blood warm" thing for the reasoning why they cheated, and not understanding these feelings are somewhat normal. Often we let our feelings for someone else impede all reasoning, and that's probably because we failed to understand what that feeling is and/or lost our boundaries. I have been close to that situation, but my intelligence and experience knows that it's just a chemical reaction due to our biological and emotional need to pair sexually, and if I'm to hold my commitment, I need to practice my boundaries.

 

 

 

Well said!!!