On and off relationships: CAN they end up working??

[princessa]

I dont quite understand why you are so offended and threatend by this comment. It might give you some insight into your relationship if you gave it a little thought.

 

Anyways, you mentioned that your parents constantly fought. Is this a relationship role model you strive to have in your own life or are you wishing something different for yourself?

 

Obviously I'm wishing for something totally different!!!!! I can't stand the fight, they make me miserable. But on the other hand I don't let crap get past me either.

 

And I will remain offended by this comment until you can explain to me why you think it is, and the answer "because you always fight" is not gonna cut it for me. Calling my relationship fake is like an insult to my intelligence, it's like telling me that I haven't been able to see that it was fake for two years, this is why this statement is so important. I am willing to discuss an debate this though, so go ahead if you have any real explanation for why you say that it's fake, but if you don't then don't just make this assumption and stick to it, because it is insulting.

[princessa]

Yes, that's pretty much what I mean.

 

Take religion as an example. If you disagreed about religion, say you are very religious and take God seriously, and he's not religious at all and doesn't believe in God.

 

You can learn to argue effectively and work out a compromise about going to church and specific religious practices (communication).

 

But if you still believe he's going to burn in hell if he doesn't believe in God and that you are both sinning every time you use a condom, then that's a compatibility issue. If he still thinks you're foolish to believe the world was created in 7 days and resents you for giving money to the church, that's a compatibility issue. You both think the other is wrong, and you can't amicably agree to disagree and not bring it up anymore.

 

You may have communicated and understand each other, but it doesn't make any difference in the end, because you will always be at odds about the issue and it will continue to affect your relationship.

 

Basically you're saying we have to be able to agree to disagree, right? And it's when we're not able to do this that it keeps coming back to haunt us? That makes sense.. lots of sense... I think I actually tend to do this alot myself.. Often it takes lots of explantions from the other person for me to fully understand where they're coming from, and be OK with WHY they have a different opinion than my own. This is also why I tend to be argumentative, I need to convince myself that their opinion is also valid, albeit different.

 

With my bf I don't even think we're at the stage where we can talk about agreeing to disagree. We've only recently started being honest about some issues... or at least he started to open up more with me and let me know what he really thought.... but then we got into a fight and all the "progress" came to a halt.

[norajane]

And I will remain offended by this comment until you can explain to me why you think it is, and the answer "because you always fight" is not gonna cut it for me. Calling my relationship fake is like an insult to my intelligence, it's like telling me that I haven't been able to see that it was fake for two years, this is why this statement is so important. I am willing to discuss an debate this though, so go ahead if you have any real explanation for why you say that it's fake, but if you don't then don't just make this assumption and stick to it, because it is insulting.

 

First, she said the honeymoon periods were fake, NOT your relationship. The honeymoon periods are fake because the issues that caused the argument and break-up are still there after the make-up period feelings fade and reality comes back:

 

Because you keep going through these fake little "honeymoon" periods. But when that wears off, you have no solid foundation to stand on.

 

The honeymoon period isn't the 'real' part of your relationship. The honeymoon feelings aren't the status quo, the way you feel most of the time. It's the anger and hurts and complaints and issues that are the status quo - the reality - not the good feelings that you feel after making up:

 

...when your little honeymoon make-up phase wears off the old resentments and everything else that goes with that, comes back. Actually they never go away. They remain just below the surface always EXCEPT for during that little honeymoon phase.

 

In a stable relationship with a solid foundation, you wouldn't need to be arguing and breaking up all the time in order to finally have (a little) happiness and peace in the relationship. A solid foundation implies that you are mostly happy, with occasional disagreements about things. There wouldn't be so much continual drama and up and down and back and forth and push and pull. You'd generally be ok, even though there would be times you disagreed.

 

If the foundation was REALLY solid then it wouldn't be on again OFF again..it would be ON all the time.

 

Honeymoon periods are fake on so many levels. For one, in a REAL relationships you don't keep having these ups and downs like that. It's more even. Does that make sense? No drama.

[Buttaflyy]

All relationships start off in a honeymoon phase. During this time, all relationships are peachy keen, nothing can go wrong. However, it's not a solid foundation to judge a relationship.

 

This is so true!

 

This is why you guys keep going in a cycle. You keep focusing on how things are in the honeymoon phase and keep coming back to each other. Yet, when the chemistry wears off, there's nothing to your relationship to keep you together. The only way to have a relationship with each other is to remain in the honeymoon phase, which means you have to breakup to reach that point again..

 

This is what my friends are going through now. They stay together because of the time they've invested in eachother. They hold on to those peacy keen days when they are long gone. Only thing is those days never come back. No matter how much you want them to. They're in the past, we can't get the past back.

 

To me, breaking up with someone is the last card that should ever be dealt. And when you use it so callously and repeatedly, it's like holding the other person hostage. They fear speaking their minds because you might leave them. It's a pretty cruel thing to do to another person. Worse is when you both use it repeatedly that it loses it's effect and you no longer know when the real end of the relationship is. And it doesnt really signify a mature relationship. A mature relationship is when you both acknowledge you have some problems, but you're both committed to working it out, and you stay, not leave. If you reach the point where you have to leave, that's when you really should leave. Otherwise, you're just playing games, and games has no place in a mature loving long term relationship..

 

Oh how true this is! I call this a threat. I told my bf that we will not have a breakup to make up relationship. I don't take too kindly to threats and I won't worry about ticking him off and maybe hearing about a breakup. I told him if he says it he'd better mean it. I just can't play this game.

 

Either you both get real with one another and go into counselling, or you leave each other alone to find happiness elsewhere.

Very good advice Dgiirl!

 

Princessa, ALL relationships take work to maintain a healthy relationship, but sometimes we are better off apart. I know you care alot about making this work and I wish you the best. Just make sure your not the only one working at it.

[dgiirl]

The thing is, i'm not here to "debate" the topic with you. I was under the assumption you wanted advice and this is what I was offering to you. Instead, you want to debate the topic. Maybe you should debate it with your bf, or is it ex-bf?

[norajane]

Basically you're saying we have to be able to agree to disagree, right? And it's when we're not able to do this that it keeps coming back to haunt us? That makes sense.. lots of sense... I think I actually tend to do this alot myself.. Often it takes lots of explantions from the other person for me to fully understand where they're coming from, and be OK with WHY they have a different opinion than my own. This is also why I tend to be argumentative, I need to convince myself that their opinion is also valid, albeit different.

 

With my bf I don't even think we're at the stage where we can talk about agreeing to disagree. We've only recently started being honest about some issues... or at least he started to open up more with me and let me know what he really thought.... but then we got into a fight and all the "progress" came to a halt.

 

Well, you missed the mark on what I meant a little. Yes, sometimes agreeing to disagree is necessary and the relationship can survive it. However, if you have lots and lots of issues that you have to agree to disagree on, you're not compatible.

 

Also, some issues aren't the kind where you can agree to disagree and everything is fine. For example, if he won't ever do any foreplay during sex or won't go down on you, but you need foreplay or cunnilingus to fully enjoy sex or to have an orgasm, you can't just agree to disagree. It doesn't matter how honest he is about hating foreplay or going down on you; it doesn't matter how honest you are about needing foreplay or cunnilingus. Understanding without any change in action to accomodate the other person means you would remain unsatisfied and will always be resentful, while he ends up feeling he can't please you and resents you for trying to "force" him to do something he doesn't want to do.

[princessa]

The thing is, i'm not here to "debate" the topic with you. I was under the assumption you wanted advice and this is what I was offering to you.

 

Advice based on assumptions?

[princessa]

Well, you missed the mark on what I meant a little. Yes, sometimes agreeing to disagree is necessary and the relationship can survive it. However, if you have lots and lots of issues that you have to agree to disagree on, you're not compatible.

 

Also, some issues aren't the kind where you can agree to disagree and everything is fine. For example, if he won't ever do any foreplay during sex or won't go down on you, but you need foreplay or cunnilingus to fully enjoy sex or to have an orgasm, you can't just agree to disagree. It doesn't matter how honest he is about hating foreplay or going down on you; it doesn't matter how honest you are about needing foreplay or cunnilingus. Understanding without any change in action to accomodate the other person means you would remain unsatisfied and will always be resentful, while he ends up feeling he can't please you and resents you for trying to "force" him to do something he doesn't want to do.

 

Like I said I would agree to disagree on something minor or something that doesn't majorly affect me, and only if the person has thouroughly explained it to me... But you're right, an issue like sex isn't minor and it isn't something you can agree to disagree on if you're not satisfied. And this is why we kept having fights and I didn't want to just let it go... But we had never achieved true understanding until just recently.. And this is why we kept going in cirles.. Cause he could never be honest with me about the fact that he felt I was too demanding and said things that had hurt his ego.. and I just kept saying stuff that he resented because he never told me not to... and we agreed to take things slow and that maybe we should try a different approach with this.. To me it was a huge relief to just be able to talk about this honestly and openly.. I feel I understand what happened with this issue now and I'm aware on how to handle it next...

 

The thing is, before we achieve this type of honesty and understanding there are always fights..... and this happens with most issues that we face... and it's draining.... but on the other hand for some of them it seems like we're working through and things end up fine.... I don't know it's hard to tell....

[BareGoddess]

Advice based on assumptions?

 

Ok, I'm stepping back in...no. Advice based on EXPERIENCE, in my case. Sure, your experience isn't mine and vice versa (sp? can't spell today.) We're just giving advice based on our own experiences. That's all anyone here can do. We're not professionals and no one's word here is God's either. You can reject everyone's advice if you want or accept some and not others'. It's up to you. No one is arguing with you.

 

And thank you NJ. Apparently I'm having trouble being clear today because you explained my posts very well. I never said your relationship was FAKE, Princess. Read NJ's post again. She understood PERFECTLY what I meant to say.

 

Man, I swear I used to think just like you. I thought if I loved this man with all my heart and he sometimes like he loved me too that it was ENOUGH...that we were compatible. But we weren't. We disagreed and didn't talk for days. It was not a genuinely good relationship.

 

Now, when I disagree with my H it's talked out and resolved right then and there. And furthermore, we don't have any fundamental disagreements about the BIG issues like sex, money, child-rearing, etc. In other words, we're COMPATIBLE. Our temperaments are compatible and our ways of communicating are too.

 

If one person needs to talk it out and the other needs to retreat for three days, there's no compatiblity there in terms of communication styles.

 

And that's a BIGGIE!

[princessa]

And thank you NJ. Apparently I'm having trouble being clear today because you explained my posts very well. I never said your relationship was FAKE, Princess. Read NJ's post again. She understood PERFECTLY what I meant to say.

 

Well I guess i just didn't understand it the way you wrote it then!

 

Man, I swear I used to think just like you. I thought if I loved this man with all my heart and he sometimes like he loved me too that it was ENOUGH...that we were compatible. But we weren't. We disagreed and didn't talk for days. It was not a genuinely good relationship.

 

Now, when I disagree with my H it's talked out and resolved right then and there. And furthermore, we don't have any fundamental disagreements about the BIG issues like sex, money, child-rearing, etc. In other words, we're COMPATIBLE. Our temperaments are compatible and our ways of communicating are too.

 

If one person needs to talk it out and the other needs to retreat for three days, there's no compatiblity there in terms of communication styles.

 

And that's a BIGGIE!

 

This is the kind of explanation I was looking for. Yes, you are right, our communication styles clash.. I'm not gonna disagree with that for one second.. What kind of incompatibility did you have in your previous relationship?

[BareGoddess]

Well I guess i just didn't understand it the way you wrote it then!

 

 

 

This is the kind of explanation I was looking for. Yes, you are right, our communication styles clash.. I'm not gonna disagree with that for one second.. What kind of incompatibility did you have in your previous relationship?

 

Mostly it was our way of communicating..not even WHAT we were communicating ABOUT. But say I'd bring something up and he'd argue with me and turn it around on me and the next thing I knew we were yelling at each other and even slamming doors. He wouldn't talk about it again and I'd get the silent treatment. He brought out the very worst in me because now, with my H I'm not like that at all.

 

He also used to resort to name-calling with is a form of abuse I now realize but didn't realize it then. Later on, he'd even push me and get physical at times. It was basically his way or no way. There was never any kind of compromise. And that made me more angry and more stubborn and it would build and get bad. We'd break up and each time I'd SWEAR I was done with thim. This went on for six years and we even broke up for one year where there was no contact. After the one year, we started it back up again and he ended up asking me to marry him during one of our "little honeymoon periods."

 

Long story short, the marriage barely made it three years. My mom always told me that the only way I was ever going to TRULY get him out of my system for good was to marry him. She always saw that we were not compatible but I kept telling her how much we loved each other and how when it was good it was the BEST. Unfortunately, when it was bad (which was quite often) it was the WORST ever. So not worth it.

 

Someone who really is healthy emotionally and loves you does not verbally abuse you or give you the silent treatment (talking about my situation with the ex..don't know how your guy is.)

 

So that's how it was. When it was over, I was suicidal. Never thought I'd meet a man that I could love that much (yeah, even with all the drama) but I did. I learned a valuable lesson and was just hoping I could pass it on.

 

I wasn't judging your relationship at all..how could I when I was in one just like yours?

 

And it's funny because after each time that we'd get back together I thought we were past all the bad stuff but we never were. We just never were. It's sad. It actually just gets worse though because the resentment builds up after each episode. Like I said before, it never REALLY gets resolved because basically the two of us were really not compatible. Like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

[princessa]

Mostly it was our way of communicating..not even WHAT we were communicating ABOUT. But say I'd bring something up and he'd argue with me and turn it around on me and the next thing I knew we were yelling at each other and even slamming doors.

 

Yeah I can relate.. I'd say something and he's twist it around into something totally different... yeaah..

 

He wouldn't talk about it again and I'd get the silent treatment. He brought out the very worst in me because now, with my H I'm not like that at all.

 

I get the silent treatment too, which totally drives me nuts, and results to ME name-calling HIM. Which results in more silent treatment. He never calls me names or gets physical though, but ignoring me is enough to drive me insane on its own.

 

Long story short, the marriage barely made it three years. My mom always told me that the only way I was ever going to TRULY get him out of my system for good was to marry him. She always saw that we were not compatible but I kept telling her how much we loved each other and how when it was good it was the BEST. Unfortunately, when it was bad (which was quite often) it was the WORST ever. So not worth it.

 

I don't like talking about this with my mother.. she doesn't know my bf, but she always tells me that I'm stubborn and difficult and always want to get my way. So I'm keeping her out of my issues....

 

So that's how it was. When it was over, I was suicidal. Never thought I'd meet a man that I could love that much (yeah, even with all the drama) but I did. I learned a valuable lesson and was just hoping I could pass it on.

 

I wasn't judging your relationship at all..how could I when I was in one just like yours?

 

Well this time I think you actually got through to me.. thanks for the advice it's very valuable.

 

And it's funny because after each time that we'd get back together I thought we were past all the bad stuff but we never were. We just never were. It's sad. It actually just gets worse though because the resentment builds up after each episode. Like I said before, it never REALLY gets resolved because basically the two of us were really not compatible. Like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

 

So did you end up finding somebody who was like him, just with better communication skills??

[Isabella82]

I would just like to add that my boyfriend and I both have the same problem. We both like to argue also. He will be in law school so of course he likes to argue and is great at it, and I am just stubborn.

 

He has told me in the past that he likes the fact that I the way that I am, because his other ex g/f's just let him do whatever they want and they acted like they had no brain.

 

Where as with me I tell him how I feel, what I like, what I won't put up with, what I expect etc.... He said he was happy that he finally met a girl that has a good head on her shoulders. (not trying to brag here because I do not always think that I do, and I have a bad temper that I NEED to work on, but this is what he told me)

 

I am not trying to say that our fighting is okay, but I have this friend who lets her b/f get away with everything for the sake of them not fighting, and I just can't do that.

 

I really think that fighting now and then is normal, so if your only fighting about once a month, about something stupid (which they are all stupid fights) then that seems normal to me.

[dgiirl]

Isabella, there's a big difference between having differing opinions and expressing that and continually breaking up. Yes, it's healthy to have your own thoughts and to express the things you want and believe. And a relationship isnt in trouble if you fight, but HOW you fight.

[BareGoddess]

Yeah I can relate.. I'd say something and he's twist it around into something totally different... yeaah..

 

 

 

I get the silent treatment too, which totally drives me nuts, and results to ME name-calling HIM. Which results in more silent treatment. He never calls me names or gets physical though, but ignoring me is enough to drive me insane on its own.

See that's what I meant about that he brought out the worst in me. I never do that with my H. I mean the name-calling. And yes, the silent treatment is very passive-aggressive and immature.

 

I don't like talking about this with my mother.. she doesn't know my bf, but she always tells me that I'm stubborn and difficult and always want to get my way. So I'm keeping her out of my issues....

 

I kind of don't blame you for not talking to your mom. Ha! My mom told me the same thing...but she was right to an extent. I CAN be stubborn and difficult but with the wrong person it's drawn out even more. With the right person that part of me only comes out occasionally.

 

Well this time I think you actually got through to me.. thanks for the advice it's very valuable.

 

You're welcome! I'm so glad I could be of some help afterall!

 

 

 

So did you end up finding somebody who was like him, just with better communication skills??

 

Well, it's kind of funny since Isabella mentioned about her b/f being in law school because my ex was a lawyer and so is my H. When I found out what he did for a living I thought...Oh NO. Not AGAIN! And I was ready to run for the hills. But the thing is, that's ALL that they have in common.

 

They have completely different temperaments. My H is WAY more laid back and not moody like my ex was. He's also a generally very positive person whereas my ex was all gloom and doom and looking back on it, prone to depression. He was also extremely domineering which my H is not. We talk over everything and reach agreements. I never knew it could be like this. I met him 12 years ago.

 

So yeah his communication skills are better but for me at least, even more importantly, is the fact that his TEMPERAMENT and personality are WAY different. That's made all the difference.

 

Also want to say that I agree with Isabella about that fighting now and then and disagreeing is normal but not talking for days is NOT acceptable for me at all. I can understand where you're coming from with that. That's torture. Also "breaking up" after every big argument is not acceptable either. I mean what if you were married? Would he scream DIVORCE after every argument like my ex did?

 

DG is right on the money again saying that it's HOW you fight that makes the difference. That's what I was trying to say before about if your styles of disagreeing are different then you're simply not compatible.

 

So Princess, what do you think you'll do?

[princessa]

What I think I'll do?? Well I have lots of thinking to do. I know for you people it's so obvious that I should break up with him, but for me it isn't... And I do appreciate your input and don't think that it went in one ear and out the other.. but like I said I have a lot of thinking to do.. (out loud, on LS )

 

I mean logically when I go to a site like marriagebuilders.com and check out what makes 2 people compatible, I get things like "Intelligence, Energy, Social Interest, Cultural Background, Values"... And I've always thought (and still think) that we're pretty much fine together in those aspects... So logically to me we are compatible and it doesn't make sense why we always fight...

 

But you're right, the way we fight about things can make it or break it.. Either that or it's just things that we simply cannot agree to disagree on, like NoraJane was saying.. In my case, I often don't even know the difference between things we agree on but don't communicate / fight about them properly, or the things we just plain disagree on, because communication is always poor.

 

And still I remember better days, where he'd sit down with me and we'd talk quietly about whatever issues we had.. I actually remember being amazed at how clear and easy things were at the beginning.. I could call him all upset at 5am about him making jokes about a pimple on my chin the night before, and he'd pick up and reassure me and make me laugh... instead of just shutting out and ignoring me... It was so easy, it's like he'd get me right away.. Now everything is complicated and resentment got built up and things accumulated..

 

On the other hand last time I gave him an ultimatum and told him that if he needs 3 days of space I can be fine with that, but if he ignores me for even an hour longer than that then I'll be out cause I can't stand the disrespect anymore... So I guess I have to keep my word....

[dgiirl]

What I think I'll do?? Well I have lots of thinking to do. I know for you people it's so obvious that I should break up with him, but for me it isn't...

 

Actually, I dont think anyone here has said that. Once again, you're misintrepreting what people are advising you by being on the defense.

 

I'll requote what I initially said and I still stand by it.

 

Either you both get real with one another and go into counselling, or you leave each other alone to find happiness elsewhere.

[princessa]

Actually, I dont think anyone here has said that. Once again, you're misintrepreting what people are advising you by being on the defense.

 

I'll requote what I initially said and I still stand by it.

 

Well that's what the general trend seems to be to me... Norajane said that we don't agree about many things, and I know she's been reading my posts for a while... and then BG said that she was in a similar scenario and that it just doesn't work... And then you said that in a mature relationship we have to pretty much work things out instead of always breaking up.. but I mean even if we're not breaking up much anymore, it's still all about the constant fights..

[dgiirl]

So you'd rather break up then try counselling?

[princessa]

So you'd rather break up then try counselling?

 

Counseling????? Okay first, I'm 21 and he's 23 and we're not married. Second, I'm not dishing out that kind of money. Third, he was supposed to go to counseling on his own for his outstanding issues regarding his guilt about his mother who passed away and just generally being depressed... and he never did for whatever reason...

[amaysngrace]

On the other hand last time I gave him an ultimatum and told him that if he needs 3 days of space I can be fine with that, but if he ignores me for even an hour longer than that then I'll be out cause I can't stand the disrespect anymore... So I guess I have to keep my word....

 

Him needing a three day space from this relationship is a very bad sign. What happens if you guys get married? What are you going to tell the children? Will you let them know that this is to be expected of Daddy because Mommy and Daddy's marriage is too intense for Daddy to handle for too long without a breather?

 

Or, do you maybe think it's okay for your children to grow up thinking this pattern is 'normal'?

 

AND...if it wouldn't be okay for your children, why is it okay for yourself???

[princessa]

Him needing a three day space from this relationship is a very bad sign. What happens if you guys get married? What are you going to tell the children? Will you let them know that this is to be expected of Daddy because Mommy and Daddy's marriage is too intense for Daddy to handle for too long without a breather?

 

Or, do you maybe think it's okay for your children to grow up thinking this pattern is 'normal'?

 

AND...if it wouldn't be okay for your children, why is it okay for yourself???

 

Well we don't live together so it's much easier to ignore somebody's phone calls.. If we're spending a weekend somewhere or if we're going out and things go wrong he generally doesn't walk away.. he'll just keep it civil and mind his business...

 

Why I think a 3-day breather period is acceptable is because he told me sometimes he just can't handle it and I don't want him to say things he doesn't mean either.. Also because we're in a period where things have just accumulated and accumulated up until now and now things are intense because there's a bunch of unresolved resentment crap behind... If we were to get married I assume we'd make sure to get rid of the resentment baggage beforehand and then he wouldn't need 3 days for a small argument...

[SmoochieFace]

So you'd rather break up then try counselling?

 

Dgiirl, I think you're forgetting that it is the 'trendy' thing these days to regard people and relationships as easily discarded 'objects'.

[amaysngrace]

Why I think a 3-day breather period is acceptable is because he told me sometimes he just can't handle it and I don't want him to say things he doesn't mean either.. Also because we're in a period where things have just accumulated and accumulated up until now and now things are intense because there's a bunch of unresolved resentment crap behind... If we were to get married I assume we'd make sure to get rid of the resentment baggage beforehand and then he wouldn't need 3 days for a small argument...

 

 

You know, you guys are both very young. You both still have a lot of growing and maturing ahead of you.

 

I know I didn't have it all figured out when I was 21. If being with him makes you happy, then stay with him. You should only leave when you feel it's not worth it anymore.

 

But I would suggest you guys work on talking things through, rather than resorting to breaking up. Maybe try listening, instead of arguing. I think you both need to learn how to do this. But again, it comes with time.

[norajane]

On the other hand last time I gave him an ultimatum and told him that if he needs 3 days of space I can be fine with that, but if he ignores me for even an hour longer than that then I'll be out cause I can't stand the disrespect anymore... So I guess I have to keep my word....

 

What's the deal with this 3 days of space? I don't understand exactly.

 

Do you mean after an argument, he takes time to cool off where he doesn't contact you?

 

Or do you mean at any point in time, even if things are fine between you, he doesn't contact you for 3 days?

 

In both cases, I don't necessarily see a problem. Sometimes a week goes by before my SO and I get together and we don't necessarily talk during that time. Neither of us considers it disrespectful, because it's not intended that way.

 

On the other hand, if he intends to upset you by withdrawing, then you have a problem.

 

In that Mars/Venus book, the author explains guys need to go into their caves every now and then. Unless he's always in the cave and rarely comes out, it's just how men are...

 

Or am I missing something? I'm not getting what's the issue.