Thoughts needed ilmw?

[Antha]

It is three months into the divorce process between my husband and I. We haven't had any "deep" conversations for a week. I was finally like, "Cool. STBXH is accepting this and is becoming a better father and a more mature adult. He is handling dealing with me in a better manner and we are just be civil and getting along. Yay".

 

Well, he had told me yesterday he'd call at night (can't remember why; I think we were discussing fax a copy of the gas bill that our former landlord should have to pay because we haven't lived in the house in months). Anyway, he called while I was out picking up my sister from work and I saw that he called, so I returned his call.

 

We talked about normal things, but as things progressed, he told me he was feeling depressed. I expressed concern for him. He said he felt overwhelmed by life and all that would be coming up in the future. He wants to go to college and get his own apartment, etc. Then it started to get a little more involved.

 

Other things started coming up...things he's changed. For example, I had told him that I didn't like him just leaving abruptly and sending me home crying, so he stopped doing that. In our marriage, he completely refused counseling or to even talk about our problems. He said that if we acted like nothing was wrong, soon they wouldn't be. Well, now we have long conversations about what went wrong in the relationship and how we each felt. Since filing, he has really opened up to me, the way he used to before we started having problems (after the baby was born).

 

My STBXH has asked for me back 3 times since I filed...but in each ease, he's not willing to make any sacrifices or any big changes. I have let him know that I would be willing to take steps to reconcile with him if I had these things:

 

1) he must NEVER EVER speak to the girl he cheated on me with, whom he currently lives with...he won't even admit he cheated. He says that they got together 1 1/2 months after I filed. He's told me that she has told him that she loves him. I asked him if he loved her and he said, "Yeah. Sort of. I love you too. I care about her and she is genuinely a good person and a good friend". They have had sex (which he explicitly told me about) and they dated. Now, according to what he says, they are NOT dating anymore...but they are still living together in her trailer.

 

2) if we are to reconcile, we must go to marriage counseling and continue with the communication we've been doing. We must realize that nothing is going to come quick and we are not immediately going to understand each other's point of view just like that.

 

3) We must focus on our marriage together...no one else should be allowed to input and our time should be spent TOGETHER.

 

These were the three major changes I wanted. I told him on every occasion that he wanted me back that this is what is necessary for me to consider taking him back.

 

Well, I met him last night. I suggested that we go to a restaurant so that we wouldn't have any more cases of 'accidental intimacy'. Well, I had just eaten...and then he claimed he wasn't hungry and we just parked. The first thing he did when I got in the car was kiss me. He just kept coming on to me and telling me all the things I wanted to hear: "I love you. I need you. I miss you. I want you". I kept pushing him away gently, saying that I didn't want to just rush into the physical intimacy (again) before we dealt with emotional intimacy.

 

My STBXH is very persuasive and managed to talk me into giving him 'a little something' so that he wouldn't be so pent up and he would have a clear head to talk to me.

 

Well...we talked for hours afterward...but eventually, we arrived to the end of the line: sink or swim, now or never. He picked HER over me. He says he didn't, but he refused to stop seeing her or talking to her. I mean, hell, he isn't even willing to say he'll move out of her place in X amount of time, even though he has plenty of places he could stay until he got an apartment.

 

He said: "I truly understand why you feel that way, but I'm not willing to give up the people who have been with me through these really dark times. She is a genuinely good person. I won't give up the people who have been there for me and been a good friend to me."

 

I asked him how he would feel if the situation were reversed. How about if /I/ was the one who moved in with some guy 2 days after the papers were filed...then spent all my time with him, in addition to living with him...then we had sex and I let my STBXH know the explicit details...then started dating him...introducing him to family members...then break up...and then I go back to STBXH, but refuse to dissolve my "friendship" with this guy that I live with, had sex with, and who has proclaimed his love to me. That guy would be circling like a vulture around H and mine relationship. At the first sign of a fight or disagreement, OM would be right there waiting to swoop in, just biding his time until something went wrong with H and I.

 

Well, STBXH again said he understood how I felt, but refused to give up OW because "she's a genuine friend. You should believe me that if I say it's never going to be anything more again, then that's the case". Still, at the mention of the mere /possibility/ of me going out on a date or anything, STBXH gets jealous (and he admits he does)...just over the /possibility/.

 

And yet, STBXH refuses to give her up...but still tells me how much he loves me, how much he wants our marriage and how much he wants us to work.

 

I ask for ilmw because of this: as a guy who has made many position chances and wants his wife to see that these are REAL changes and not just an act...do you see any changes in my STBXH that I may be overlooking?

 

He keeps mentioning changes, but the only one he can mention is "trying not to hurt me"...which he has done A LOT of, whether intentioned that way or not. He posted a pic of him, OW, and OW's child on his Myspace page. He claims he will take it down, but it's been up for over a week now. I had told him that it had made me literally sick---vomiting in the parking lot of Home Depot and having a panic attack and crying and vomiting and shaking at the same time and not being able to breath. Basically, I had a complete meltdown just from glancing at that pic. It was like being suckerpunched.

 

He says that we communicate more now. Yes, that's true. That is a change...but it feels like we talk in circles. We understand each other and sympathize...and then we don't the next day. One step forward, two steps back.

 

I told him today that I am not asking him to reconcile and choose me over her--just make a CHOICE... that if he can't make these changes that are NECESSARY TO ME to heal our marriage...then there's no point in trying to take steps in that direction. We know where we stand. For him to be my husband, he cannot have her in his life. I know what I can handle, and I know damn well that I would never be remotely okay with him being close friends with a woman who slept with him, said horrible things about me and my family and my marriage, and who is waiting for things to go wrong in our marriage.

 

The OW woman thing is the biggest point of discontention. I could say 'Maybe we will work things out on our own and not go to marriage counseling', but he absolutely won't budge on this OW and I won't either. To me, it's either his "friendship" with her or his marriage with me and he refuses to give up his "friendship, and that is absolutely vital and imperative to me in order to get back together.

 

And the thing that is bugging me is that he knew before he met up with me last night that we were meeting to talk about reconciling, and that I wouldn't reconcile with him unless he committed 100% to our marriage and our family and that he would NEVER see HER or talk to her again...

 

I should note that he is still denying cheating with her and that there are phone records and other 'circumstancial evidence', not to mention that he moved in with her 2 days after I filed, wouldn't stay home, and had met her three months before I ever heard her name uttered. He kept her a secret and she was fine with being his "friend" in secret. I mean, come on, right?

 

I feel like he deliberately mislead me so that he could have the physical intimacy again. He knew before he kissed me and had me use my multi-talented mouth on him, knowing that he had no plans to stop seeing her and being "friends" with her. Her offer to him of "friends with benefits" is still on the table (he told me this). How in the hell could he expect me to be okay with him having a relationship with a woman that is offering him 'no strings attached, friends with benefits' sex?

 

He knew my conditions, and yet he talked of reconciliation and changes...

 

Anyway, thanks to anyone who read this novel. It was good to write that all down. I could blog it, but STBXH can see when I've blogged something and set it to 'friends only' and he gets pissy and wants to know what I'm writing about.

 

Antha

[ilmw]

Antha...

 

I see a guy here who wants his cake and eat it too...

 

You are asking for something... that it seems like he does not want to give you...

 

From all my reading... and stuff I have learned on LS.... he will not change anything aslong as he is getting it with you and the other woman...

 

He wins either way... and if you are still giving him (stuff) you are not helping your case...

 

I do not think he has changed a thing.. as he is not doing anything different..... as I have learned... words mean nothing... it is actions.... and he appears to be doing nothing positive in respect to reconcilation with you.... or your relationship..

 

I know that I wan't to reconcile with my DW.... It is my dream.. my goal... my deepist desire... (Do you see a difference there)

 

My motivation initially was to "win" back my wife... but it soon became apparent... that the changes were for me... I realised that I truely was not happy....with myself.... (that was another nail in the coffin)

 

I recognised this stuff... it was hard to admit that I "had issues".. that I was not "all together"... that I was not "always right"

 

My changes have been hard fought for.... and I am damn proud of them... . BUT, I recognised I needed to change for me...

 

I do not see your H... at the present time... seeing the need to change... why would he.... No motivation.... all his needs being met... by 2 woman...

(he sounds kinda greedy.... )

 

Antha... you sound like a smart lady.... ... do you not see that you can answer a lot of what you are asking by yourself...

 

I learned a lot from reading others posts... what they are going through.... and what they have put up with... and I know you have too..

 

What should you do... I'll be honest... I have no clue... Are situations are different.... (well as far as I know they are different... meaning no other man)

 

I know other folks will post who have gone through what you are....so stay strong...k

[Antha]

Thanks for replying so quick, ilmw. I know you are right. I think I just wanted someone else to confirm that, especially since in your situation, you are doing what I /wish/ my STBXH would do--see the light. Not just about our relationship, but be honest with himself and his flaws and want to improve himself just to be a better person, a happier, healthier person. I feel like I overanalyze his actions and behavior to such an extent so that I can "find" the changes he's made and make him out to be a better person than he truly is.

 

I keep thinking when I read your posts 'His W is so lucky...if only she could be open enough to believe him'. So many people in RL and online will say how they regret this and that...but then do it again, and somehow they are again the victim and never really take the full weight of what betrayal REALLY means. Some relationships just aren't meant to be forever...but betrayal is like being gang-raped and then the person saying "I'm sorry you took it that way" or "I'm sorry you feel that way" and therefore equating you to an overemotional whiner, rather than a justified victim.

 

H keeps going on about how he's "accepted his share of the blame" and that I will continue to repeat these patterns in the future because I do not recognize my own blame. I have been reading, reading, and then reading some more. I have been trying to be as coldly honest with myself as possible...and I still cannot remember these instances where it was 'all about me' or where I was emotionally neglectful of him. I am like the uber cuddler. I'd bounce up and down like a puppy when he got home and greet him at the door as though he just came back from the war...I've always been so affectionate, so loving, so sympathetic and open.

 

I have recognized some major flaws of mine: I tend to whine, I am overly sensitive at times (NEVER tell your wife she looks fat--NO MATTER WHAT ), I tend to focus on the negative rather than the positive, I can be too affectionate to some people. I am working on the whining and trying to focus on the positive and be grateful for what I have and what I am accomplishing (I just finished my training and I got a job as an Administrative Assistant when without this training, I was only qualified to work at Burger King for $6.50 an hour). I still have A LOT of work to do on myself and part of that has been wracking my brain, trying to see events and my actions the way he does...and yet I cannot see what I could have done that could warrant such a betrayal...and betrayal that is still going on even now.

 

Why can't all men be like you and Gunny?

 

Antha

[ilmw]

Why can't all men be like you and Gunny?

 

 

....thx...if this keeps up my ego... will inflate to unknown limits..

 

I'm sick today...had to call in sick...( laying on my comfy sofa... watching old elvis movies...( ).. but love all that old stuff...

 

Anyway.. ...thats why I could respond so fast..

 

Its good to see you recognise some things about yourself.. you would like to change... trust me on this.... nothing is impossible if you truly want it... and have the determination to do it....

 

I am a living testimant to this... everything I have ever wanted... I have had to work my arse of to get... it took me years to get some of them... but I never gave up.... and I eventually got it... (nothing worth having to me ... ever came easy.. )

 

Be smart.. be consistant... and be true to yourself...

 

BTW.. congrats on the Admin job...

[hopeto]

I just wanted to tell you how sorry I am that you are hurting and that you know it will get better. I am lost to and I am finding my light. I am seeing that there is hope yet. you can read my post about what I am going through and I will say this to you. HE IS NEVER GOING TO CHANGE. as the saying goes HE CAN but HE DONT WANT TO. he thinks that he can have his cake and eat it to. and you mention that he would be jelous if you were seeing someone. get out there girl. what is stopping you.

 

you dont have to get into another relationship but see other people and stop being convient for him. my doc says and I hate to be so frank but doc says if he had to sugar coat everthing that he would not have been in the bussiness he has been in for 30 years he says get you titty out of his mouth and letting him suck cause if he has it at the snap of the finger and what he has on the side then he will never change. refuse his calls after you say to him that it is either this or nothing and then if he says I wont do that then say there is nothing more to talk about.

 

refuse his calls and refuse his dates and then he will see what he has to do in order to make it work. the old saying if you love something set it free and if it is ment then it will come back. I hope and pray that it works for you and that you find peace but hang in there we will be ok and we will become stronger because of it. doc says it is a learning experience. the key word is you have to LEARN from it. see ya:o

[Dad_of_3]

Its good to see you recognise some things about yourself.. you would like to change... trust me on this.... nothing is impossible if you truly want it... and have the determination to do it....

 

I am a living testimant to this... everything I have ever wanted... I have had to work my arse of to get... it took me years to get some of them... but I never gave up.... and I eventually got it... (nothing worth having to me ... ever came easy.. )

 

 

When you look back ilmw ... would you have it any other way ?

Thats how I look at it these days. Its tough but its what is making you, YOU !

 

 

Antha I'd like to post but I guess I dont want to intrude.

[ilmw]

When you look back ilmw ... would you have it any other way ?

Thats how I look at it these days. Its tough but its what is making you, YOU !

 

 

Antha I'd like to post but I guess I dont want to intrude.

 

Do3...hay there mate..

 

Feel free to intrude.. Antha is looking for feed back.. not just mine..

[Dad_of_3]

Do3...hay there mate..

 

Feel free to intrude.. Antha is looking for feed back.. not just mine..

 

Hahaha ... looks like you standing right next to the post button !

 

Sorry to hear you sick buddy. Hope you get over it soon.

Us common folk need protection out on them mean streets ! haha

 

Antha I'm just heading off to work, will use that time to have a think about what I am going to write.

I'll be upfront and say I come from that field your husband from the sounds of it, is still in.

 

Speak to you guys again soon

[Ladyjane14]

Nice job in setting boundaries, Antha. Atta-girl!

It couldn't have been easy for you, but you stood up for yourself and refused to accept less than your worth.

 

I'm thinking 'Marriagebuilders Plan B' complete with PBL (Plan B Letter), but you'll be the better judge of timing, I'm sure. Your 'Plan A' seems to have just kicked into high gear regarding communications, but on the other hand... the best time to withdraw ENs and create a vacuum is just before 'Plan A' gets stale.

 

This could be an optimal time to make a statement out of those new boundaries.

[PWSX3]

First off I would like to say, Anna I really feel you know the answers but you might still be afraid of the outcome and afraid to let go.

 

That is awsome on the new job, that is the types of things you need to focus on; why? because those are the type of things that will make you feel happy/good about yourself, what your H is doing won't help you at all at this time. It is amazing what happens to a person once they start realizing they aren't such a bad person and that when you do something good for yourself it does feel good.

In my case I thought I was the only person that mattered and I would walk over people without even knowing it and I especially did that with the wife and I feel that is what your W is doing, he doesn't care if he is hurting you as long as he gets what he wants and at this time he hasn't hit rock bottom in order to notice this about himself.

 

If you have to give him a "little something" just so he can think well you gave him the cake that he was looking for and that's it.

Next time if you need to meet, please do it someplace public. Even if you have to just get coffee or a sunday at the Dairy Queen anything. Don't let him put you in that position because it is to much of a temptation to give in at this time.

 

I totally agree with what ilwm posted, good post by the way ilwm.

(another blow to the ego) :lmao:

If he really wanted to change he would be more then welling to go to counsoling.

Why does he blame you for things you are doing wrong because that way you will look at yourself as the bad person and not look at him and he doesn't want to take the responsibilty that it takes to blame yourself.

 

If someone is really wanting to change they would be doing something about it. Has he told you of any books he has been reading, or any web sites that he has been looking at or shown you printouts of stuff he has gathered from the Internet???? You don't know how hard it is to keep from wanting to show it all the the W and say, see what I have learned. Hopefully someday she will see it in my actions and that will get her attention not just talking about it.

Come look at my house, I have a folder of material I have downloaded off the Interenet, I have books that I have read, books that I'm going to read and I "HATE" reading. Some of the books I have even read twice just to make sure I didn't miss anything the first time. (Gunny made me do that one. ) Ask Gunny how many books he has read, ask ilmw or any of the other people here that really "want" to change themselves!!

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is if he was really working on things, I don't think sex would be the first thing he would have needed (at least I don't need that right now) when you talk you would be able to hear in his voice and the words he uses if he has been working at changing, the way he walks the way he presents himself should all be signs of him changing not his words.

 

It will come down to what you want or need and none of us can tell you what to do but hopefully once you start seeing who you are it will become clear what you really want.....

 

I wish you the best.

[Gunny376]

I stubled across your thread as I was headed out the door for work ~ so? I printed it off and took it with me.

 

There I was having the ususal stuff of the way, gotten my game plan ~ planned, on top of everything, settling back in my deluxe excuative easy chair, snacking away on a banana. Got to reading your thread ~ and damn near choked to death on a damn banana!

 

First off this clown isn't going to change, simply because he doesn't have any impitus nor motivation to change. For someone to want to change ~ they must be stimulated either negatively or positively! Its just that plain and simple.

 

Sixteen years ago, I thought I was a pretty good husband, and I thought I was following the scrpt as I understood it. Trouble is no one ever told me that I was suppose to act like we'd just meet ~ even though we'd been together for 12 years. Emotional needs? WTF are you talking about? You azz ain't going to bed hungry are you? You've got a roof over your head, medical, dental, a fairly new car to drive. I'm home everynight, I work my azz off, sometimes I work two jobs to provide for you and the kids. I'm out drinking, gambling, smoking up the rent money. I'm not out chasing everything in a skirt? I'm not laying out with the boys in the club.

 

Her fault, my fault ~ no one's fault. Bottom line was just got her a "toy-boy" and I got my azz handed to me.

 

When Cortez landed on the shores of Mexico ~ he burned his ships. Its was sink or swim. There was no going back. His men were what you might call very positively motivated.

 

The guy you married to isn't married. He wants his GF and his wife. And, if you're buying off on his lies you're just setting yourself up. No man is living with another women that he's already admitted to having sex with and they're not getting it on!

 

So in essence your the second string, has been back up? Oh I think not! You're better than that, and you deserve better than that! You owe yourself better than what you're getting from this clown.

 

You need to get yourself a copy of that song by the George Sattelites, when the line that goes, "No more your lies and keep your hands to yourself!" And, play it over and over and over and over again.

 

You know you're already suspectable to his lies, manipulations, etc, so for your own good cut all contact ~ be strong, get you back up ~ and yes "man-up" and do what you've got to do to get rid of this clown!

 

You've already shown by getting the admin job that you're capable of being determined, and of pulling yourself up from your bootsrings. Attta Girl! And, you can do this divorce thing. You deserve only the best ~ don't settle for less!

 

Now that's he rejected your "mimimum list" I'd be upping the ante' and adding to the list ~ the bar just got a little higher and a little harder to get over.

 

Getting back to the change business ~he's not going to change ~ because he's not suffered the pain as you, I and others have. When I went through this ~ I was determined to never go through all that again. Thing is you can read from here to Kingdom come and there still aren't guaranttes it won't all go to **** in the end!

 

Its hard to tell a good one from a bad one until you've been with them for awhile. A good one will love you until death! A bad one will make damn sure you azz goes first!

 

Relationships can be easy to get into, hard to maintain ~ and sometimes hard to get out of ~

 

This guy is dis-respecting you big time! That enough should be your cue to exit stage left for the rest of your life. You deserve better, and you can find better.

 

As far as the sex goes ~ I'm going to tell you like your Mama told you back when you were a little girl ~ "Don't put that in your mouth! You don't know where its been!"

 

Bottom line ~ if the "crying, begging, pleading, ripping the headliner out of the car - "I'll pay you $50 just to stop!" sex wasn't enough to make him stay it sure as Hell isn't going to be enough to make him come back under yours or anyone's terms.

 

This guy is using you!

 

If you don't respect yourself ~ don't expect anyone else to! Especially USERS, and ABUSERS like this guy.

 

Go out and get yourself a Lexus ~ why settle for a Yugo?

[Ladyjane14]

Standing ovation, Gunny. (I wish we had an emoticon just for applause!)

 

You know, sometimes I get soooo sidetracked trying to help somebody get what they want... that I don't question WHY they want it.

 

I think you've got this guy's number, Gunny. It's just flat out WRONG to allow your spouse to jump through these kind of hoops, then look them in the eye and tell them "I'm not giving up my girlfriend". It says something about a man's character when he can give himself permission to do that.

 

So... I'd like to amend my previous post:

 

How 'bout handing this guy his hat, Antha? I'm thinking Plan D with complete NO CONTACT for life. It's time for your STBX to stop messing with your head. And only YOU have the power to enforce those boundaries.

 

You told him what you needed, and he rejected it. Question asked. Question answered. He's "burned his ships" if you ask me.

[Antha]

Thanks for all the replies! I also like the 'burning ships' metaphor. Now, in the light of day and that horrid discussion with him and these words you all have written...I feel a bit free. I was afraid of all the hard work that would be involved in reconciling and doubting him capabilities to handle such hard work, such growth...

 

What he has told me is pretty much equates to letting me off his hook. In his way (not giving up OW), he has told me that he is not willing to change and that he chooses her over me. It can't be much clearer than that, really. He can talk himself blue in the face now...but he cannot take back saying that he would not give her up. Ten years from now, just because the dust has settled doesn't mean I will give him this opportunity again...I will never forget that despite his words of love and "soul mates" and all those lovely things...he didn't really believe what he was telling me. He doesn't feel the same way about me that I felt about him. He doesn't believe that we could get through anything together.

 

She was not his "friend in his dark times"...she was the cause, as well as himself for giving into temptation. And then to say that he wouldn't give her up for me...his WIFE, his "soul mate", his only one...the only one who ever understood him and truly accepted him for who he was...

 

He spits on what was once our marriage. Common courtesies are used as "evidence of his changes".

 

I don't believe I could have been more clear on where I stand. I was victimized before and I don't want to be a victim anymore. I don't want to be manipulated and toyed with.

 

In a way, by refusing to give her up, he has draw a line in the sand. I do not want the man who uses me in every way and justifies it. I do not want the man who cannot be faithful to me, who can give me what I need but refuses to out of selfishness.

 

Giving up his little girlfriend seems like such an obvious, necessary thing. Why WOULDN'T you forsake her for your true love? Why would anyone think that you could really have love and trust and understanding from your spouse...when you will not depart from the catalyst to the ending of your union? And to try and convince me that it makes him a good man to "not abandon friends and family", and makes ME the selfish one for asking it of him!!

 

I cannot cut him out completely (as I had in the past for 2 years). We have a child together. However, I have a new cell phone...I have not given him the number nor let him know that I have one. This decreases the amount spent talking to him. He cannot talk to me long before 7pm because he only has a cell phone and it costs minutes to talk to me. If he wants to reach me, he must call my mother's house...and take the risk that he may have to speak to someone other than myself. He will call if necessary, but he is deterred from calling just to BS with me or talk about "our relationship".

 

You are right. He has not hit rock bottom...and why should he? He has everything he wants: freedom from his wife and child, his live-in girlfriend, plus my love for him that keeps up his self-esteem, and being his "on call prostitute" when he is lonely.

 

In a way, he made a big mistake in telling me he wouldn't give her up. By being honest (for once), he has let me know that I do not want him. If I am not enough for him, and he needs her still...what is the point? I will remember his refusal to excommunicate himself from her every time I hear his voice or see his face. This man is not worthy of me.

 

I feel foolish now, that I would ever consider reconciling with him...and that he should spit in my face and tell me it was a sweet kiss. I'll get over the feeling of being manipulated and exploited soon.

 

The likelihood now of being "swept away" by what he says to me in the dark is a lot less. I should have known when he didn't want to meet me at a restaurant after we had already agreed on meeting at a 24 hour restaurant that he did not want a real conversation...that all he wanted was to trick me again so he could get what he wanted. He had begged me to have sex with him, and I wanted to...but I told him no more than a few times and pushed him away. I'm very glad that I didn't give in, at least, on that account.

 

Now that he has refused to give me what I would need...what would be his position now? Prepare me. What will he say next to try to manipulate me? I don't know for sure that I need to be prepared, now that I know that there is absolutely no chance of being together. If it won't lead anywhere...then what is there to talk of anymore?

 

All I feel right now is anger and hostility towards him. I gave him his last opportunity to make things right, or at least start to make them right...and he failed and disappointed me yet again. He didn't deserve any of the chances I gave him to prove himself a good man, but I gave them to him because I hoped he wouldn't fail me again. I feel that this was definitely his last chance with me, and he blew it. He doesn't realize it yet, that I won't be his plaything anymore or speak of my love for him or talk to him about "good times" we had or stroke his ego (or anything else of his).

 

When he gets lonely and calls the next time, he'll realize he cannot have everything and that he has lost me forever. I will never return to him, I will never be his friend or confidant. When the anger towards him wears off (as it always inevitably does), I will not go back to him or let him into my life.

 

Honestly, I can't wait for the opportunity to crush him in every way possible. Sounds horrible, doesn't it? I plan to not consider his feelings before I do anything. With the child support hearing coming up, I fully intend to have the courts make him pay a reasonable amount and half of the daycare costs. I have no more sympathy for how little money he has now. Boo hoo. Maybe he shouldn't have cheated on me, treated me like a worthless piece of crap...and then told me that I needed to own up to my own responsibility in it and that I was just as responsible. I'd say it was more 20% me, 80% him.

 

I know I sound crazed and confused...but I am not. Your words are things I knew "in theory", in my rational mind...my emotions are catching up with what is already obvious to you, and to my rational mind. My heart has been letting me act like a fool, and afterwards my rational mind would be upset with the actions my heart had made me do. Now, it feels like the mind and the heart are more in sync...and both are disgusted by my STBXH.

 

Antha

[Gunny376]

NO! I'm not discusssing anything other than our children's welfare and visitation.

 

No! I'm not meeting your anywhere!

 

No! You can't come over!

 

No! I don't won't anything from you!

 

You've had your chance, and you blew it!

 

I deserve better than you and what you've got to offer ~ NO WOMAN DESERVES YOU!

 

I'd better off alone for the rest of my life than with you!

 

I loved you once ~ but I love myself more!

 

Just to get the ball rolling!

[Ladyjane14]

Now that he has refused to give me what I would need...what would be his position now? Prepare me. What will he say next to try to manipulate me? I don't know for sure that I need to be prepared, now that I know that there is absolutely no chance of being together. If it won't lead anywhere...then what is there to talk of anymore?

 

Probably he'll offer up a little more of the same at first. He'll continue to try and impress you with the idea that his "common courtesies" are in fact "changes", and he'll improve upon his sales job at convincing you of same.

 

He'll tire quickly once he sees that you're not buying though. And then... you'll be the bad guy again. He'll be angry and bent on demonizing you.

 

When all else has failed.... he'll most likely capitulate completely to your boundaries. If you accept him back, this will begin a period of false recovery unless his heart is genuine. If it's not... he'll just take the affair back underground.

 

With this one exception... you've already seen all his moves. The false recovery scenario is the one to keep your eye on. The only ploy left in his arsenal.

 

And man... a wayward can sell the sh*t out of that one. Because they actually believe it themselves... at least for awhile. The actual loss of the betrayed spouse can sometimes light a fire under them. But if they haven't put in the work it takes to make those changes REAL, they can't go the distance.

 

I'm sorry for your pain, Antha.

Your writing style is so eloquent that it's like sitting in the same room with you. One can almost feel the emotions.

 

But you're smarter than he thinks... and you're strong. You'll be okay, hon. Time is all you need. All the other resources one needs to help themselves recover..... are already at your command.

[Antha]

NO! I'm not discusssing anything other than our children's welfare and visitation.

 

No! I'm not meeting your anywhere!

 

No! You can't come over!

 

No! I don't won't anything from you!

 

You've had your chance, and you blew it!

 

I deserve better than you and what you've got to offer ~ NO WOMAN DESERVES YOU!

 

I'd better off alone for the rest of my life than with you!

 

I loved you once ~ but I love myself more!

 

Just to get the ball rolling!

 

I'm going to print this out and keep it near the phone. Thanks, Gunny!

[Antha]

Probably he'll offer up a little more of the same at first. He'll continue to try and impress you with the idea that his "common courtesies" are in fact "changes", and he'll improve upon his sales job at convincing you of same.

 

He'll tire quickly once he sees that you're not buying though. And then... you'll be the bad guy again. He'll be angry and bent on demonizing you.

 

When all else has failed.... he'll most likely capitulate completely to your boundaries. If you accept him back, this will begin a period of false recovery unless his heart is genuine. If it's not... he'll just take the affair back underground.

 

With this one exception... you've already seen all his moves. The false recovery scenario is the one to keep your eye on. The only ploy left in his arsenal.

 

And man... a wayward can sell the sh*t out of that one. Because they actually believe it themselves... at least for awhile. The actual loss of the betrayed spouse can sometimes light a fire under them. But if they haven't put in the work it takes to make those changes REAL, they can't go the distance.

 

I'm sorry for your pain, Antha.

Your writing style is so eloquent that it's like sitting in the same room with you. One can almost feel the emotions.

 

But you're smarter than he thinks... and you're strong. You'll be okay, hon. Time is all you need. All the other resources one needs to help themselves recover..... are already at your command.

 

Well, I did something stupid...again. But smart, too. After my post, I called him. I gave him yet one more chance to renege on his words of the night. He tried to deny that he was choosing her over me. He said that the reason he thought we might reconcile is that he thought I had made changes...when in fact, now he is seeing I've made no changes at all. See how crafty he is? He tries to turn it around on me, as though I'm not mature enough to handle his "friendship" with her and that I'm the one who hasn't changed at all because I don't trust him!

 

In the end, though, I boxed him in. I didn't care how much the words hurt, I had to hear him utter them.

 

Me: "This is your choice? Are you absolutely sure? Do you understand that your choice now effects the rest of our lives? In ten years, I will remember that you chose your girlfriend over your wife?"

 

He said it wasn't like that, but if that's "the way I was going to see this", then he accepted it.

 

And finally: "You choose her, then?"

 

Him: "Yes, I choose (insert OW's name here)."

 

Me: "Okay. Have a night life"

 

...and then I hung up the phone.

 

Throughout the conversation, he was cold, and kept turning all blame back on me (though saying that he took his own share of blame). He is a good manipulator...he cheats on me...and I'm the one to blame. I am the one who has made no changes. I am the one who is unwilling to trust. I deceived him in my intentions. He's made all these changes and I haven't done anything, nor do I see anything wrong with anything I did. Pff.

 

For the record, he hasn't read anything, hasn't gone to counseling, or just done ANYTHING to look inside himself. He says he has, yet the same words keep coming out of his mouth. Even worse, he'll admit that he did wrong in our marriage (but of course, won't name them specifically) but yet, he continues to do them even now. So, let's say he did realize what he did wrong...but he just doesn't care.

 

I am not fooled by his attempts to put the false guilt on me...but there was that urge to try to get him to understand reason. I shouldn't even have to ASK that he would not have any contact with OW. It's just a no-brainer, common sense, that if you wanted to wear a wedding ring that you would not have contact with the OW. It just goes without saying.

 

I despaired for about 10 minutes after the conversation. Why is she better than me? Why would he choose he over me? Why can't he see that I am everything to him, as he was to me? Why would he be so foolish? Does he really think that this is only lip service, and that in a few days I will cool down and he can have me again? Probably, since that is how it has gone in the past...the only difference now is that he stupidly let me know that she is more important than me, that he doesn't truly want to reconcile, he just wants the benefits of being married. Oh, I just want him in front of me so I can kick him so hard in the groin that he never has children again! How dare he say "Who filed the divorce papers? YOU gave up, not me"!!

 

And now I am calmer. I may not have changed much...but at least I am working on it. At least I am not pretending to make progress that isn't real. At least I know who I am and what I want in life. I am not the one throwing away a once blessed marriage for a tryst with a woman who looks at me as a mealticket and future daddy for her 7-year-old. Not only that, but I'm WAAAAAYYYYYYY hotter than her. She looks like a fat transvestite. I look like a supermodel compared to her.

 

I have been fooled, but I am not a fool.

 

Such an emotionally exhausting day. I graduated yesterday. I start my new job tomorrow. FIA cut off most of my benefits because of the employment, but child support will be replacing my FIA benefits. They have already started (a few weeks ago) taking money out of his checks. His once $800-$900 checks are now about $400-$500. Still decent money, more than I'll be making even if I worked full-time. When he goes to get an apartment, he'll find that he cannot live in extravagance anymore. Right now, he lives with her in her "manufactured home" (i.e. glorified term for trailer in a trailer park) and he lives off her food, electricity, water, shelter, etc. He is able to go out to dinner twice a week and to the bar and buy himself nice clothes...

 

However, sooner or later, he will leave. Not just because the relationship won't work out, but because she has power over him. It is HER place, not his. STBXH does not like the woman to have power over him. At any time, she could tell him to leave and there isn't a damn thing he could do about it and even though she might not do that, he doesn't like that he isn't always in the position of authority over other people. So, eventually, he will seek out his own place to live and find that affording a restaurant twice a week and spending absurd amounts of money on going out to the bar isn't a reality he can afford.

 

He's dug his own grave. I really, really want to see him lie in it. I would say bed, but he's already laying in that bed. With her.

 

I'm really excited about my job and I feel I deserve it. I'm a very hardworking person and I know I can show my new employers that. This is a stepping-stone towards the future I have planned for my daughter and I. Already, I have confidence that I didn't know I had, though I have moments of doubt on that front--something I need to work on is believing in myself and having confidence. As I get more experience and knowledge in my field, I will make more money doing a job that doesn't require manual labor, but mental skills and dedication. STBXH cannot do his job forever. His body will wear out. Many people who have been with the company longer than 10 years have all sorts of back problems, can't walk properly, etc. STBXH is replaceable. He is a body...and the body wears down. When I get to the top of my field (and I will), I will be making $20 an hour or more. In a few years, I will be making my goal ($14-$15 an hour). He has all these dreams...but does nothing to go after them. Every day is a new pipe dream for him...and he does nothing to pursue it. Today, he wants to be an accountant, yesterday it was Radiologist, then day before it was business owner...

 

Anyway...still working on it...getting some demons out by writing this...trying not to hear the words 'Why aren't I good enough?' in my head. I try to banish them immediately because they are ghosts of his lies haunting my mind. It is a hard thing to remember that just because you were rejected, you are not worthless or unlovable. It is hard to remember that one would be lucky to be with me (when I am in the right place emotionally and have recovered from all this). I am a giving, generous, loving person and I have a lot to offer someone. Just because he is stupid and foolish and overlooked his 'diamond in the rough', that doesn't mean nobody else will recognize what is there. I am still young, 25, and my life isn't over...

 

I need to remember these things constantly. It is like the crashing of waves on the shores...they come, and then they recede...I need to built a dam or something.

 

Antha

[Antha]

The letter I wrote him, for those who are interested:

 

I talked to you on the phone today. I cried for 10 minutes. I couldn't believe that you could choose her over me...and yet I could. It's very you to not appreciate what you have until it's gone.

 

I had called because I convinced myself that you didn't know what you were saying, what the full weight of your choice really meant. You said on the phone that you understood completely. Please do not try to turn it around on me again and tell me that this is my choice. It was yours. I gave you opportunity after opportunity to see the value of what we had...and that we could have it again with some effort on both of our parts, but that it would not be an easy road.

 

You did not want to walk down that road with me, save our marriage and our family. You choose to walk the easier path, the one that isn't as complicated or daunting. I am disappointed in you, to tell you the truth. Marriage cannot be blissfully happy 24 hours a day, and that is what you seem to think marriage is. Marriage is not one person living their life and another living theirs, but living under the same roof and having sex when they feel the urge with no emotions underlying. Marriage is two people united, interdepent of each other. I don't think of marriage as "the ball and chain" as you seem to. Yes, marriage does mean being accountable to someone else...but not because it's expected but because it is the way a GOOD marriage is, because you CARE about that person and want to give them the happiness that they give you, because you care about their feelings and care about them as a person.

 

I don't know why I am writing this. I feel like I have to for some reason, even though I know you will read the words and not understand them. You will say you understand them, but you never do. It's as if you 'academically' understand what I am saying...but that it were it ends. You don't RELATE to it, and therefore it seems irrelevant.

 

You tried to deny that you were choosing her over me. You said that the reason you thought we might reconcile is that you thought I had made changes...when in fact, now you are seeing I've made no changes at all.

 

You turn it around on me, as though I'm not mature enough to handle your "friendship" with her and that I'm the one who hasn't changed at all because I don't trust you 100%. If you can UNDERSTAND why I feel she shouldn't be in our lives...then why refuse? If it makes perfect sense to you how much pain her existence in your life would cause me, how our marriage and reconcilation would be doomed before we even started...then why say anything at all. It is a lie that you understand, even if you believe you truly do. If you understood it, you would cast aside that relationship in favor of the one you know to be true, the one that can be stronger...but you are not willing to make the effort. You are not willing to take the path that is more difficult in order to arrive at a better quality of life. We were happy once, and we could have been again, but you don't want to work for it or have the patience to bring it to fruition. You want instant gratification, for it to overnight be exactly what it was.

 

You understand that this was the open door and that you've slammed it in my face once again? Do you REALLY understand that...or do you think that I will go back on what I've said and go back to the nights of passion in your van? Sure, that's happened before...only this time you didn't deny your relationship with her. This time, you've clearly drawn a line in the sand. This time, you did not placate me and tell me sweet lies of it being only me. This time, you were truthful and said that you refused to give B up. Knowing that...knowing that you've ultimately made your choice...how could you ever tell me that you love me anymore? It would be "Sure, I love you...you just don't mean enough to me to sacrifice anything whatsoever" or "I love you...but not enough to work on our marriage or make any real changes" or "I love you, but my relationship with B comes before my marriage...despite those pesky vows I took".

 

As you can sense, I am angered now. I am angry that you would again cast off our relationship, every happy remembrance we had, every good and bad thing we experienced and shared together. I am sorry, but I will not share my husband with another woman, a woman that says that she will spread her legs for him at a moment's notice, no strings attached. A woman who is in love with you (though, according to you, you only dated for about 2 seconds and haven't known each other more than a handful of months).

 

If it were reversed, you would not abide another man waiting to stick his d**k in me as soon as you said something that I didn't like or agree with. If a man were in love with me and just waiting for me to have an argument with you, you would not want that person hovering over our relationship.

 

You say you have made all these changes. Like what? What big changes have you made? What soul-searching have you done? You still find it too effeminate to read a book or go to counseling. You still find it too scary to look into yourself.

 

You realize some of the extent of the pain you've caused...but you keep doing it over and over. It's like you stab me with a knife, apologize and say you were wrong to do that, and then keep stabbing me in the gut and twisting the knife for good measure. I never dreamed before that you were capable of such horrors, so cruel and callous to another human being, especially one you vowed to love and cherish. I have trouble wrapping my mind around your psyche. How do you reason that saying sweet words and then turning around and plunging the knife in deeper is just your way of being in love with me? You hurt me. You say you are "sorry that I feel that way" and then do it again and again. Either you are angry, or bored, or you are just used to the quality of breaking me down. I wish these remonstrations on no one, including you.

 

Why do you say you've made all these changes...and yet nothing has really changed? You admit fault, though you are never specific other than to say "maybe I shouldn't have gone out so much". You can admit that you've done something wrong THEN...as if it were a lifetime ago...and you keep doing it now. You don't see how you could be so sweet when you were home one day...and so terrible to me the next. You do it even now. I start to trust you with my heart, and I let you know how I feel for you...and then you break my heart over and over and over again.

 

I shouldn't even have to ASK that you would not have any contact with B. It's just a no-brainer, common sense, that if you wanted to wear a wedding ring that you would not have contact with B. It just goes without saying.

 

I despaired after our conversation: Why is she better than me? Why would he choose he over me? Why can't he see that I am everything to him, as he is to me? Why would he be so foolish? Does he really think that this is only lip service, and that in a few days I will cool down and he can have me again? Probably, since that is how it has gone in the past...the only difference now is that he stupidly let me know that she is more important than me, that he doesn't truly want to reconcile, he just wants the benefits of being married.

 

If you think that I have not changed...fine. That's your perception. At the very least, I can say that I have been working on it, trying to figure out what went wrong in the past and how to change it. One of those things that I DEFINITELY did wrong was to be a pushover and let you do whatever you wanted. So, I set boundaries that I knew were necessary...and you balked. How dare /I/ tell you what was necessary for us to be married?! It's like you just didn't like me telling you that this was what was NEEDED. This isn't an arbitary "Oh, get rid of her". This was: "I know our marriage cannot heal and get better unless she is not in our lives. She is a catalyst for a lot of anger and controversy. I cannot be the woman you married while you still have contact with her".

 

This is what I needed one month ago, a week ago, two days ago--you mislead me, let me believe that you would be willing to go to marriage counseling and to have no contact with her. If you thought we could reconcile without these things, then I don't know where you got that idea.

 

At least I am not fooling myself into believing that I'm making all this imagined progress. I see no big difference in the man you were when I was yelling that you were lying and that it WAS your girlfriend's number...and the man now. It's the same. "She is JUST a friend. I AM NOT dating her. I AM NOT f**king her". Maybe you are, maybe you aren't...but how can you expect that I should blindly trust the words you say now...when I've really seen no demonstration of changes? How can you speak of changes when I've yet to really see any, other than "common courtesies from one human being to another"?

 

You think it's so easy to reconcile the past. How have you shown me that you are different than the man I divorced? Can you tell me...or can you just talk of changes, but not point out anything specific. Every time I am nice to you, you take advantage of my kindness and leave me crying and upset...and then you apologize...and then you do it again and again. How is this not exactly the man I was married to, who left me for days at a time and barely spoke a word to me unless it was about work, the man who said "if we pretend we don't have problems, they will go away...we don't need to work them out".

 

You communicate with me now...but then it's all about sex until the next time you feel lonely or horny. How am I supposed to see it any other way...that you love me so much? If you love me as much as you say, why is it the only thing that seems to have changed is the words you say to me? Talk is cheap. You are good at talking, but not good at showing. Is there any changes to show? Well, I wouldn't know...maybe B does. I don't see you often enough in the light of day and in day-to-day life to know. A few nighttime proclamations of love don't mean much in the light of day...when you refuse to be my husband based on her. She obviously means more to you than anything we've shared in the last 11 years or the bond between us...because you are letting your relationship with her be more important than our marriage.

 

As I'm writing this, I am trying not to hear the words 'Why aren't I good enough?' in my head. I try to banish them immediately because they are ghosts of your lies haunting my mind. It is a hard thing to remember that just because you rejected me in favor of her, that I am not worthless or unlovable. It is hard to remember that one would be lucky to be with me (when I am in the right place emotionally and have recovered from all this). I am a giving, generous, loving person and I have a lot to offer someone. Just because you choose her and overlooked your 'diamond in the rough', that doesn't mean nobody else will recognize what is there.

 

I thought you knew me better than anybody else...but if you really did, you wouldn't be throwing away our marriage for B.

 

And now it ends. You have made your choice, the choice that I knew you would make even though I hoped you wouldn't. I didn't mean anything to you, apparently. Those words you said to me were poisonous lies...and here I was foolish enough to believe them, that I meant more to you than anything else. I feel in our time together, I have sacrificed more for you than you will ever know...and you weren't willing to sacrifice anything, not even the most trivial of things.

 

It feels like it was always about you and what you wanted...if I were to even protest a little you would become cold towards me. I am not allowed to have an opinion of you. If I want you, I need to build you up and worship you and never mention that you might have a flaw or two of your own. You ARE selfish, J. And your selfishness was part of our downfall, and the fact that we cannot reconcile. I do not see true remorse or regret. You say these things...but I never seen them. You do not show them in your actions, but them you condemn me for not believing you. Yes, actions speak louder than words. I feel that my actions have said, "Yes, I want you. I love you. I need you. I will always love you"...but they are not reciprocated. Your actions say "I love you long enough to get a blow job or get my way".

 

I regret now that I let you know how I still feel about you, because it seems you have used that against me and hurt me all the more because you know you still have my heart. I cannot take it back now and say that I don't love you, or say that it doesn't hurt so bad. I'm sure you are fine, just now finishing up dinner with the "Missus" and dd and B's daughter. It is not as hard for you because you have B to distract you and ease some of your pain. Me? I'm living through the pain. I'm thinking of you almost every moment...and knowing at the same time that each tear is for you and that you do not have any tears for me. This was but another relationship for you that has ended, whereas I feel like I have lost my true love. You want to believe (whether you say it or not) that all your actions were REACTIONARY of mine...and that they were understandable and justified...that they make sense. Sure, they do...and yet now your actions have not changed. You still pull away from me...you still refuse to "give in" because you don't like feeling like you aren't getting your way.

 

J, you cannot honestly expect our marriage to work with her in the picture. You cannot honestly expect that I can rebuild the trust I once placed in you while you are still in contact with your girlfriend. ANYBODY would have a hard time trusting in a person who wouldn't give up their "close relationship" with someone they've slept with, lived with and gotten very close and personal with, and built a bond with, who admits that they are in love with you and you are somewhat in love with them as well.

 

How can you tell me that you are in love with me...but also in love with her?

 

I'm not going to tell you "Okay, once more chance". I've given you thousands. I just wish you would see the wonderful person that you're giving up, that you have hurt so deeply. But you won't. There really isn't a point to this letter, other than to lament what you and I have lost for good.

 

When I came back into your life at 21, you appreciated and loved me and counted yourself a thousandfold lucky to have me...and now you couldn't care less. I am not a toy. I am a person. You cannot just pick me up and play with me when you feel like it. I am a person, J. A person who loves you. Someday, I'll change that to 'loved you'. It has not come yet, but I pray that the day will come quick. You do not cry; it's as though you feel nothing for me. Do you spend your hours wishing and wanting just for a day of what was? Do you wonder if I want the same thing? I have shown you and told you that I wanted our marriage back, to heal it and be us again...You told me it wasn't of value anymore--not in words but in refusals, dismissals and coldness and condescension. I cared about what we had. I cared about what we could have again.

 

Now I must accept your choice and move on. I hope that although this letter is hostile and sad and pleading at times, that when we speak, we could be mature adults and good parents for dd and work harmoniously for her sake.

[Dad_of_3]

Antha,

 

I've read this thread for over 2 days now. Comtemplating what has been written by yourself and everyone else.

 

As i wrote earlier, I come from the side of the fence your stbxh is currently residing in. I can only go by what I have experienced myself and from what i am reading on here.

This is only my opinion and thoughts on what I have read.

 

I was a cheating spouse with, well, from the sounds of it, all the trade markings of your stbxh. Very calculating, selfish and a damn good manipulator. These are things I am not proud of, I have been ashamed of when I look back, but choose not to have those traits in my life anymore.

 

From what he says and his actions, he is looking for some form of validation in his life. He doesnt understand it, he doesnt know why, he only is thinking of squarely on himself. In his eyes, what is he possibly doing wrong.

In the affairs I had, it was sooo simple, as you stated. There is to be no contact with the OW under no circumstances. Every single divorce/relationship website, book, hell even Dr Phil puts it that simply.

What did I do when I was in the mist of my daydream, I believed I could be a friend to this OW that I had been having a relationship outside of my marriage. What a f**king delusion.

There was no way that would be possible, there would be no sitting down to having a cup of tea with OW and stbxw. Yet still in my mind, I was thinking, there's nothing wrong with that ... in me. Not once did I think outside of myself.

Every minute I spoke with the OW, every time I saw OW ... whether I did or not, it killed stbxw. I should have left my job, I should have spent every minute building my marriage forward from what had happened. Not run away and hid, or put on a facade of what was going on.

Mind you, I was in a serious messed up place at the time. I do feel that the affairs where a catalyst for everything else that had happened in my life.

 

For your stbxh, from what I have read, he is yet to feel the harsh sting of reality, the enormity of what has happened. Will he? Will he ever?

In your case, I truly believe it shoudnt matter.

 

From what I have read, you are educated, you are passionate, you are in touch with your inner self, you have the trappings of someone with alot of strength.

Even to post on here in itself takes alot of strength. Dont lose sight of that

 

I hear you saying things like "Why wasnt I good enough?" That is not the case.

Now I do not know the ins and outs of your relationship nor will I ever, but I dont need to when someone starts to question there own Self Worth!

Everyone from the day they are born have self worth. Things happen in life that affect that, but having a grip on that little aspect of being human is I believe integral on how we move forward in our lives.

I've got to say since this has come to light, I view things, people, life in a different perspective.

Everyone looks to another for validation in there lives. People look to there bosses to say "Good Job" A child looking to his teacher to say " Great Work "

For me, its so common place, we all like it, we all want it. But to be truly comfortable in who you are, that no matter is said, good or bad cannot shatter that Self worth. I'm not saying disregard all criticism or to have a holier-than-though attitude.

Everything has its place, its taking it down a notch and paying it, its due attention.

 

From what I see, everytime you succumb to him, you are validating his own self worth. He may be thinking " See I am still desirable. She still wants me. " But by doing that, you are taking your own self worth down a notch.

 

I must say though. I am so in awe that you are able to say, " Ok this far and no further "

 

I look forward to your future posts and watching you go from strength to strength. It isnt a cake walk, hell, I'm still in the midst of it all still, you will get through this. And from the sounds of it, you've already taken the first small steps.

 

Keep walking ! Head held high and with a sense of your own self worth.

 

BTW congrats on your graduation and getting a new job. All very positive steps in the right direction !

 

Your avatar also is brillant ... god I miss Angel !

[Antha]

Your avatar also is brillant ... god I miss Angel !

 

Hehe...me too. Did you know that they only canceled it because a big name director was attached to the new series, Barnabus Undead (the newest installment of Dark Shadows)? Yeah...then the director bailed on the show, and so we get no Angel and no Barnabus. BTW, my dd is named after my avatar.

 

For so long, I have let my confidence ebb and flow with his actions...it's been a long time since I have created my own self-worth. Another thing I need to be working on. I am proud of myself for getting this job (I usually tank in interviews) and proud of myself for graduating. I also like to downplay any good accomplishments I do for some reason, and look to others for...I don't know...approval of it. Not sure. This is a big area that needs a lot of work.

 

Every minute I spoke with the OW, every time I saw OW ... whether I did or not, it killed stbxw. I should have left my job, I should have spent every minute building my marriage forward from what had happened. Not run away and hid, or put on a facade of what was going on.

Mind you, I was in a serious messed up place at the time. I do feel that the affairs where a catalyst for everything else that had happened in my life.

 

For your stbxh, from what I have read, he is yet to feel the harsh sting of reality, the enormity of what has happened. Will he? Will he ever?

In your case, I truly believe it shoudnt matter.

 

That is exactly it right there...they may want to be okay with it and truly understand, but it kills you a little bit inside that your love has to have someone besides you. You die a little inside everytime that they are with OW.

 

I'm glad you recognize that the affairs started a chain reaction, that the effected your future.

 

How long did it take you to realize your error in your affairs, when you stopped making sense out of them? Just curious. I've waited long enough for my STBXH to be worthy of my love. I can't give him chance # 999,999...but I am curious to know if you think most people ever see it, and if they do finally see it, how long? As Gunny said before, he needs to be negatively or positively affected in order to realize he needs to make a change. Just to protect myself from his hurt, I will withdraw from him as much as I can and that will be negative...but I doubt it's enough to ever see reality. He still has OW, so I imagine that "Mr. Reality" isn't going to "kick his azz" until she dumps him.

 

 

I don't have much time this morning, as I have to get ready for that new job...so I'll make a much smaller post. I appreciate your insightful words, everyone's feedback. It's so weird that words on a screen can be so helpful and inspiring.

 

In response to my email, he sent me this...which is just a load of bs, I think:

 

I have to start this by saying I am deeply sorry for all of the pain you feel and that I have obviously caused. I know you don't believe it but I am. I never wanted to hurt you no matter how much you hurt me. I don't want to turn this letter into a game of fault. I jsut want to tell you again what I feel since you still don't think I feel the pain every waking hour.

 

It doesn't matter who I am around or what I am doing, you and our family are on my mind. I can't jsut erase you from my memory and I can't say that I want to. My choice isn't between you and B. It's between being with you again and screwing it up or jsut letting you move on and not hurting you again. That is the one thing I have always said to you. I never want to hurt you. I wish I could take your hurt away and keep it for myself but I can't. I just know that if we are back together right now I will hurt you again and that scares me more then anything. All the years I have known you I have tried to protect you from things like that. When we first dated...when we first stopped talking...and even now, I wish i could make it all go away but I can't. Im not the perfect person that you thought I was, and I told you that many times. If I knew how to fix it I would. I already know you are saying "You can fix it by getting rid of her", but that won't solve our problems. I know it would take time...alot of time...just to have some part of what we once had. I just can't let that happen jsut to let you down again.

 

I know you have changed since we split. you have taken courses to better your standing, to try to get back on your feet. Not thet you didn't appretiate dd before but I am certain that that has grown alot. But the things I saw that were lacking are still there. When we talked the other night that was a build up of the conversations we had in the past few days. It all felt like it was going in the right direction. Then, as the night wore on, i kept seeing the problem pop up. I did this and I did that and I need to change everything. Durring that conversation I mentioned several things that I would need to change before you could. But not once did you give me an example of where you were in all of this. Each time you asked, you didn't get what I was saying. maybe I am not as good at "talking" as you say I am. You keep saying that I won't come back without a guarentee that it would work....No, I jsut need to know that I am not going to hurt you again. I do see that you want to be with me, and I know you see it in me too. But I just can't do it right now. I can't gloss over everything that you made me feel, change all that you wanted me to change and live a happy life, jsut to start feeling the way i did before and have the same feelings and then turn around and hurt you again.

 

Once again, you can believe me if you want or jsut skip over the whole thing but if you can give me a solution to that or change my mind on that, I will give up the world and be with you and you alone once again. Can you actually do that...promiss me that I wont hurt us both?

Again. Im sorry. I do hope that you do find happiness in everything you do. I also hope you can get over me quickly so that you can heal. Then maybe I can start doing the same thing.

 

J

[ilmw]

Hehe...me too. Did you know that they only canceled it because a big name director was attached to the new series, Barnabus Undead? Yeah...then the director blamed and so we get no Angel and no Barnas. BTW, my dd is named after my avatar.

 

For so long, I have let my confidence ebb and flow with his actions...it's been a long time since I have created my own self-worth. Another thing I need to be working on. I am proud of myself for getting this job (I usually tank in interviews) and proud of myself for graduating. I also like to downplay any good accomplishments I do for some reason, and look to others for...I don't know...approval of it. Not sure. This is a big area that needs a lot of work.

 

I don't have much time this morning, as I have to get ready for that new job...so I'll make a much smaller post. I appreciate your insightful words, everyone's feedback. It's so weird that words on a screen can be so helpful and inspiring.

 

In response to my email, he sent me this...which is just a load of bs, I think:

 

I have to start this by saying I am deeply sorry for all of the pain you feel and that I have obviously caused. I know you don't believe it but I am. I never wanted to hurt you no matter how much you hurt me. I don't want to turn this letter into a game of fault. I jsut want to tell you again what I feel since you still don't think I feel the pain every waking hour.

 

It doesn't matter who I am around or what I am doing, you and our family are on my mind. I can't jsut erase you from my memory and I can't say that I want to. My choice isn't between you and B. It's between being with you again and screwing it up or jsut letting you move on and not hurting you again. That is the one thing I have always said to you. I never want to hurt you. I wish I could take your hurt away and keep it for myself but I can't. I just know that if we are back together right now I will hurt you again and that scares me more then anything. All the years I have known you I have tried to protect you from things like that. When we first dated...when we first stopped talking...and even now, I wish i could make it all go away but I can't. Im not the perfect person that you thought I was, and I told you that many times. If I knew how to fix it I would. I already know you are saying "You can fix it by getting rid of her", but that won't solve our problems. I know it would take time...alot of time...just to have some part of what we once had. I just can't let that happen jsut to let you down again.

 

I know you have changed since we split. you have taken courses to better your standing, to try to get back on your feet. Not thet you didn't appretiate dd before but I am certain that that has grown alot. But the things I saw that were lacking are still there. When we talked the other night that was a build up of the conversations we had in the past few days. It all felt like it was going in the right direction. Then, as the night wore on, i kept seeing the problem pop up. I did this and I did that and I need to change everything. Durring that conversation I mentioned several things that I would need to change before you could. But not once did you give me an example of where you were in all of this. Each time you asked, you didn't get what I was saying. maybe I am not as good at "talking" as you say I am. You keep saying that I won't come back without a guarentee that it would work....No, I jsut need to know that I am not going to hurt you again. I do see that you want to be with me, and I know you see it in me too. But I just can't do it right now. I can't gloss over everything that you made me feel, change all that you wanted me to change and live a happy life, jsut to start feeling the way i did before and have the same feelings and then turn around and hurt you again.

 

Once again, you can believe me if you want or jsut skip over the whole thing but if you can give me a solution to that or change my mind on that, I will give up the world and be with you and you alone once again. Can you actually do that...promiss me that I wont hurt us both?

Again. Im sorry. I do hope that you do find happiness in everything you do. I also hope you can get over me quickly so that you can heal. Then maybe I can start doing the same thing.

 

J

Sounds like he is testing you... seeing how you will recact to his reply..

Seeing if you will break and beg some more...

 

You know that you can pass this test of his... and tell him to go to hell''

 

He is and will not except his responsibilty in all of this.. and seems to think.. that..by throwing it back in your court... he can lessen his responsibility.. in a negative outcome...

 

I would not reply back to him.. make him think... NC the wanker... leave him in the dark..

 

Be strong.... like you are becoming... doing the right things...

 

Be a lady.. a woman... the person you are...

 

Worthy of so much better than you are getting..

 

If he can't/won't step up to the plate.. you should know.. in time.. some MAN... will. As long as you give it time..

 

You are still young and have many good years ahead of you...

 

Your future is so bright you should be wearing shades... ....

ilmw

[Ladyjane14]

Sounds like he is testing you... seeing how you will recact to his reply..

Seeing if you will break and beg some more...

 

You know that you can pass this test of his... and tell him to go to hell''

 

He is and will not except his responsibilty in all of this.. and seems to think.. that..by throwing it back in your court... he can lessen his responsibility.. in a negative outcome...

 

I would not reply back to him.. make him think... NC the wanker... leave him in the dark..

 

I agree. He's still evading.

 

You know, shortly after my own marriage crisis... my husband said to me, "I still feel vulnerable".

 

Well, the context of our conversation had really been about the two of us. So, I assumed that he meant he was afraid of reinvesting in our marriage... afraid that he'd get his feelings hurt again.

 

Nope.

 

It wasn't until we'd talked a little bit more, and I was using the old 'Listen, Rephrase, Repeat', that I figured out he didn't trust himself to stay out of contact with OW.

 

Anyway, this guy is still saying the same thing to you. He's not going to commit to NC with the OW. All that bullsh*t about "not hurting you again" is just his way of telling you..."I'm not trustworthy".

 

A agree with ILMW. Why not let him stew?

[Antha]

Sounds like he is testing you... seeing how you will recact to his reply..

Seeing if you will break and beg some more...

 

 

Your future is so bright you should be wearing shades... ....

ilmw

 

I remember that song!

 

Ladyjane--yep, right on the mark. "I don't want to hurt you" -- "I am a selfish azzhole and I will hurt you because I can only think about what /I/ want".

 

He evaded answering a single question put to him. Every time I have asked him straightforward questions, he responds with "I just don't want to hurt you" because he cannot formulate an answer that doesn't make himself sound like the prick he is. Over and over, its the same thing reiterated. If you had heard his tone of voice when he said "I choose B"...man, if that wasn't the coldest, cruelest, most uncaring tone of voice...from the man who just wants to stop hurting me. Bah!

 

I started my job today. Was there from 10a-3p. Very confused. I set up my own schedule...which I thought was quite odd for a business, but they are extremely casual and laid back. I am sharing my position, Administrative Assistant, with a girl I went to the Academy with. I'm going to be getting 30 hours instead of 20, like I was originally told, which is fine by me.

 

I've decided I need to develop a harmless crush on someone in order to keep my mind off J. There is a really good looking guy in the Tech Department and I actually smiled at him a lot (very big for me--I'm VERY shy). In the past, I didn't purposely develop a crush on someone else to get over another person...but now I think I should, just so that I am not thinking about J as much. It doesn't have to go beyond little daydreams or thoughts.

 

Daycare came through, and my co-pay will only be $20 a week. Very happy about that.

 

Still trying to figure out my job, as it wasn't really explained very well, other than we are "floaters". Technically, I am an Administrative Assistant...but I need them to go "Okay, here's what you do, get started". I know all of the programs in MS Office Suite and can type 90 WPM, but they have their own system of keeping track of students that I need to learn. I don't even know where my desk is yet, or if I am sharing one with the other girl.

 

J is bringing back our dd in about an hour. I plan to be very normal and civil and that is it...as if I hadn't even read his stupid little response. I don't plan to respond to it; what's the point? He was just spewing 'word vomit' at me, hoping something would strike a chord in me. Whatever. You guys see the extensive letter I wrote to him, very detailed, specific, etc...and he responds only to say "I don't want to hurt you". I seriously said to my computer: "That's the BEST he could do?! Piffle!" Yes, I say piffle sometimes. It's funny to me. "Piffle, you f**king bleater!" Nevermind, don't ask.

 

Starting next week, I'll be working 4 days a week, 30 hours a week. Just feeling a little lost and overwhelmed right now, but I'm sure I'll get the hang of it sooner or later and pretty much know what is expected of me.

 

Antha

[Ladyjane14]

Piffle!" Yes, I say piffle sometimes. It's funny to me. "Piffle, you f**king bleater!" Nevermind, don't ask.

 

 

You just made my day!

[Antha]

Hehe Glad I could do that for you!

 

It's quarter to six. He was supposed to bring her back at 5. He's always late when he is bringing B with him. I know it's because she has to get all dolled up. Everytime she doesn't come, he is on time and vice versa.

 

Basically, I called and asked where he was and he said he was running late. I asked if she had eaten dinner yet, to which he blatantly says, "Bridget, what time did she eat last?" just to let me know that she'll be at my house too. I wish he would stop doing that, but there is nothing I can do. She sits in the car and waits patiently for him to drop dd off, but it drives me crazy that he continues to bring his girlfriend to my house for pickups and drop-offs. F**king azzhole.

 

I know I won't, but I'm tempted to kiss him in front of her...just to let her know that he has been cheating on her with me...but I would just look like a vengeful, jealous ex and he comes out smelling like a rose. Man, I hate him. After that BS letter about not wanting to hurt me...he yet again brings her to my house.

 

Antha